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Krytha
2007-03-11, 07:49 AM
... because of how weak the story was at the end. God, it's like they felt the pressure to get it out after taking a year off (doing what? I don't know... counting money in Hawaii?) and the end of the game fell apart. Brutal overuse of the twilight "arenas" - especially the end.

100 hour game? 60 hour game? Try 40. Maybe. That was with running around aimlessly glossing over obvious solutions. I'll admit it was 100% completion, but if it were then I estimate 45-50 with gross incompetence. Too bad because 3/4s of the game were fully engrossing. Anyway, they should rename it "legend of anyone but Zelda" because she barely exists anymore.

Jibar
2007-03-11, 08:07 AM
Have you ever noticed the amount Zelda appears in the game, ever?
She's always getting kidnapped at the beginning, and showing up at the end when you rescue her.
Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker are perhaps the only games where she has has done something other than get kidnapped.

What was wrong with the end anyway?
Seemed to me like the story stayed strong the whole way through. My only dissapointment was just how much they relied of Ocarina. Parts just felt like "Yeah. See that? See what we did? That's Ol'School. That's real Ol'School."

Oh, and if you did cry at the end of the game. You're excused.

Ronsian
2007-03-11, 09:11 AM
I heard a bunch of people hating the ending, and meh. It's hard to create an ending after 10 or so(?) Zelda games.

Zorg
2007-03-11, 09:13 AM
I was most dissapointed in the end of the story, particularly the end scene in the credits - it seemed rather out of place, namely:

Why did Midna destroy the mirror? It was fairly obvious she and Link have a thing going on, and Zant and Gannon are both defeated. She talks with Zelda about how they both learnt from each other and whatnot - then destroys the mirror... erm... why? It's not like it got a whole lot of use anyway.

Leaving it at Link running up to find Midna not dead was a really good ending, as it heavily implies happily ever after, but leaves room for a sequel. Just seemed really stupid the way it was scripted to me.

And yeah, first Zelda game she appears right at the end and that's it.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-11, 09:28 AM
Lesse...

The Legend of Zelda - The end. That's it.
Zelda II: The Adventure of Link - Well, she's there during the entire game. In a coma. She wakes up at the end.
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past - Well, you get to lead her out of the castle during the prologue and she's an actual NPC (who you can talk to!) during the first three dungeons. Then she gets kidnapped and you don't see her again until after the tenth dungeon.
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening - Flashback at the beginning.
The legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - Her first substantial role. You meet her after the first dungeon, she stays there as an NPC until after the third (fun fact: If you somehow get back into her little courtyard after the third dungeon... she's still there... Huh?). Then during the entire rest of the game she's a plot-centric NPC, albeit in disguise. Then she gets kidnapped right at the end and you have to go save her.
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask - Flashback right at the end of the prologue.
The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages/Seasons - If you complete both games and link them, you get a super-special-secret boss fight with Ganon to save Zelda. Otherwise, she's not even mentioned.
The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords - Kidnapped by Vaati at the beginning. You save her at the end.
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - Huge part in the story... albeit not under the name Zelda. Then she gets kidnapped at the end and you have to go save her (are you sensing a pattern here...?).
The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap - You get to walk around with her in the prologue. Then she gets turned to stone by Vaati. You save her at the end.
The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures - She gets kidnapped at the beginning by Vaati. You save her at the end. Wow.
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - You visit her near the beginning and find she's been... kidnapped. Later on, she sacrifices herself to save Midna. Then later on she inexplicably comes back to life and gets herself kidnapped. You save her at the end.So... yeah, she doesn't really have substantial parts that often.

BrokenButterfly
2007-03-11, 12:06 PM
I've always felt that Zelda hasn't been that legendary to honest. Especially in something like Link's Awakening where she never even appeared in the first place.

Haven't completed TP yet, I got stuck in the final mini-dungeon and drifted off towards playing other things, Far Cry and FFXII for instance.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-11, 04:54 PM
Fun fact: The "Legend of Zelda" is actually told in the second game. In short, the original Princess Zelda was put into a deep sleep by her wicked brother (or something), but he felt remorseful and swore to name all first-born girls Zelda from then on in his family.

So Ganon is pretty much the same guy in all the games, Link is (arguably) the reincarnation of the Hero, but Zelda is just... some girl who happens to be a princess.

Krytha
2007-03-11, 04:56 PM
I dunno. All I'm saying is I hope Nintendo steps up with a Wii Zelda that is a truly killer app - instead of promising one and bringing the pieces to the table. Not that it'll make a difference but I havent bought a Wii yet and whether I do or not will likely be influenced by this.

Jerthanis
2007-03-12, 04:29 PM
So I got in an argument with a friend a couple days ago about whether Zelda was a weak female character or not. (The argument arose because we were discussing Zelda's possible appearance in the upcoming Mushroom Kingdom Hearts game, where my friend suggested that Tetsuya Nomura would make her into a weak female character, where I had always assumed Zelda was a weak female character for pretty much the entire series)

One of the arguments they brought up was that Zelda was strong in Ocarina of Time and in Twilight Princess. I of course mentioned how Zelda didn't really do much of importance in OoT, and got kidnapped and was once again a damsel in distress, and that I haven't played Twilight Princess. If she's weak in TP, I win on all counts!

What do you guys think? Weak female, or strong female?

Krytha
2007-03-12, 04:40 PM
So I got in an argument with a friend a couple days ago about whether Zelda was a weak female character or not. (The argument arose because we were discussing Zelda's possible appearance in the upcoming Mushroom Kingdom Hearts game, where my friend suggested that Tetsuya Nomura would make her into a weak female character, where I had always assumed Zelda was a weak female character for pretty much the entire series)

One of the arguments they brought up was that Zelda was strong in Ocarina of Time and in Twilight Princess. I of course mentioned how Zelda didn't really do much of importance in OoT, and got kidnapped and was once again a damsel in distress, and that I haven't played Twilight Princess. If she's weak in TP, I win on all counts!

What do you guys think? Weak female, or strong female?

She shoots you and Ganondorf in WW and they kept half of the tradition alive in TP, although the circumstances revolving around TP are sucktacular and she's barely in the game or important to the plot.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-03-13, 10:14 AM
The only part that annoyed me was how they played Zant up to be some big bad guy and then when you finally get to him in the end he turns into a total cry baby wimp.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-13, 02:19 PM
Meh. I liked the story right up until about two minutes before the credits.

I totally agree that the ending for TP was lame. It made no sense whatsoever. There was no reason for Midna to break the damned mirror, no explanation for her actions...

I'd have accepted it if they'd bothered to toss in some scarcely-there subplot about how Twilight and Normal worlds interacting causes badness. Hell, having the mirror overload due to Midna's superawesome power (now that it's been unleashed) and break would have been tragic (in a good way), but it was like they couldn't be bothered.

It was just a case of "Hey, let's avoid some bad Link-Midna fanfiction." "But how?" "I know! Baboom! The mirror is gone! Who cares if we don't explain why... we're at the ending! Suck it down, fanboys!"

It sort of left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. They developed Midna really well and then just sort of shot off base right at the end.

Krytha
2007-03-13, 09:09 PM
You know... I think I know why I was so disappointed and others found it to be an amazing game. I built it up. I expected it to be the "perfect" Zelda game with the perfect story, the perfect content and the perfect ending. I have no one to blame but myself.

But that doesn't mean I'm not bitter. When ARE they going to make the "perfect" Zelda? I'll buy ten! thousand!

NecroPaladin
2007-03-13, 09:31 PM
My thoughts on the bad, AND the good...


The only part that annoyed me was how they played Zant up to be some big bad guy and then when you finally get to him in the end he turns into a total cry baby wimp.

Dude...have you seen the end?

His ghost telepathically snaps his own NECK, brutally killing a wounded Ganondorf in the process. Plus, he's a delusional maniac who's dominated by Ganondorf half the time. Wouldn't you be a bit messed up?

And honestly, just in terms of character personality and the overall involvement of the character as an enjoyable aspect, I actually think I'd enjoy more games with Midna than with Zelda. Too bad they killed all prospects of a sequel, but didn't kill Zelda. Shame. They need to get their priorities straight; if a character is thouroughly more fun than Zelda, but conflicts with her "Princess/Love Interest" role (And man, did they completely brush away Ilia from this role. She was the focus of Link's LIFE for half the story) would it kill Nintendo to maybe stray a bit off tradition and not use the "Kidnap-save-end of story" Zelda routine? But that's just my thoughts on the series.

I think the game was, in fact, short. This was because the wolf is a gimmick and not a whole new play world, like the Dark World in a Link to the Past, or the Past and Future in Oracle of Ages. Short is not bad on its own, it just meant the enoyable aspects were over fast.

The praise I have for the game is in its cast of supporting characters, possibly the best ever in a Zelda game.

The characters were lovable and diverse. I found myself empathizing with many of them, Zelda and Ganondorf not included. Enjoyable characters included:

The four kids, who all look up to you and grow in their own seperate ways,

Telma and the tavern gang (Aura, Chad, Aesei, and Rusl), even if they were all stereotypes (Fat-and-sassy-barmatron, Old-wise-guy-with-gun, Nebbish,-slightly-effeminate-intellectual, Tough-as-nails,-entirely-desexed-warrior-chick, and Old-reliable-friend),

The mailman, who scares the piss out of me whenever his little red speedos come running,

The skeletal mentor who teaches you swordplay, who is hinted at as being the previous warrior of the light,

The moblin cheiftan, who secretly hides a slight honorable streak despite 'dying' countless times,

Oocaas...WTF ARE THOSE THINGS?,

The lovable yeti who screams at you when you bring him soup ingredients,

The scoundrelly bastard from the S.T.A.R. game who thinks you can't win his rigged challenge,

The not-very-joyful Rodney Dangerfield-esque cannon clown,

The three siblings Hena (tomboy), Iza (weird tomboy) and that scary kid who fills your lantern and has a bird nest on his head,

Agitha, the creepy bug girl who looks 6 years old and sounds 3,

Ilia, her Father, and Rusl's wife, all loving and realistic characters to balance out the like of the next person in line...

Scary-ass steampunker Barnes, who assumes an entirely different (British?) persona when he puts down his blast mask, and has a mechanism to pour water on anything and everything in his shop with a vague fist-pound,

ZANT (yes, I liked him), who formed a very Macbeth-esque image as one completely unstable and unfit for power and yet kept there by his own greed and the influence of another,

Midna, as stated before,

and pretty much all of the random, gossipy NPCs.

Again, this game woulda been decidedly better off if they changed around the characters who AREN'T new. Then the cast would mesh perfectly. Character interaction was what kept me playing Twilight Princess.

I loved the visuals. They pulled a "Metal Slug," where you know that you can't reach the graphics power of competitors so instead focus on surreal, beautiful, and most notably, Oversized and Epic bosses and areas to take the focus off graphics power. They succeeded admirably, and the game looked stunning.

The gameplay was classic Zelda. Not much to say about it. I would love more freedom, which they don't quite offer.

The music was lackluster. It just didn't have variety.

The bosses were easy, but looked cool as hell.

Other than that, it's what I expect from the Zelda games, and was certainly not dissapointing. This was not the "Best Zelda game of all time." So what?

(Note: I think the reason that Midna destroyed the mirror was to prevent the whole "Zant-takes-over-the-world" thing from happening again)

[/endexpressingmyself]

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-14, 04:26 AM
I hope Midna makes another appearence. She's my favourite character in Twilight Princess... heck, she's my favourite Zelda character ever (before it was Medli, then before that it was Saria... then before that I guess it was Link).

The way her personality did a swift one-eighty when Zelda sacrificed herself for her... unfortunately, Zelda just inexplicably comes back near the end and pretty mcuh ruins that scene's entire meaning.

Seriously, what the hell?


Also, on that S.T.A.R game... did anyone ever try to play it the third time? I heard there's nothing left to get from it, so I didn't try... is it even harder?

Zorg
2007-03-14, 05:10 AM
I never got the impression Zant needed the mirror, just that he didn't want Midna to get it (he seemed to be able teleport himself and his minions at will).

And Lanky:
I don't think it'll stop bad fan fiction, only make it worse. That said I a can think of so many different ways they could have left it open for a sequel without that suck ending. Leaving it a Midna's 'am I too beautiful' line - or have her simply say she has to go to rebuild the Twilight Realm, but she'll be back one day.

And I agree with NecroPaladin that the NPCs really brought the world to life - though you forgot the trio of fangirls you can aquire!

Krytha
2007-03-14, 02:22 PM
The way her personality did a swift one-eighty when Zelda sacrificed herself for her... unfortunately, Zelda just inexplicably comes back near the end and pretty mcuh ruins that scene's entire meaning.

Seriously, what the hell?

I don't have a good explanation, but I don't think she "died" for Midna. She just transferred the triforce of wisdom power (power, courage, and wisdom played zero roles in this one so it could've just been generic triforce power) or enough of it that she lost her twilight anchor and became a shade like the rest of the population, and reverts to an unconscious princess when the twilight goes away. Of course, you didn't see any shimmery marker AND the triforce mark was still there at the end, so it's questionable.

I still feel that they couldve expanded on many themes in this zelda, which left it feeling empty.

Jibar
2007-03-15, 12:12 PM
I agree with Necro about the ending.
But come on, think about it.
Trying to find a way into the Twilight realm? Perfect sequel power.

I'm also so glad I'm not the only one who found the bosses easy. But I'm also happen. I always remember, every damn time I reached the Forest Temple, Phantom Ganon, "ARAAAAAGHAFLOO! WHY WON'T YOU BE THE RIGHT DAMN PICTURE!?"

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-15, 12:32 PM
I agree with Necro about the ending.
But come on, think about it.
Trying to find a way into the Twilight realm? Perfect sequel power.

I'm also so glad I'm not the only one who found the bosses easy. But I'm also happen. I always remember, every damn time I reached the Forest Temple, Phantom Ganon, "ARAAAAAGHAFLOO! WHY WON'T YOU BE THE RIGHT DAMN PICTURE!?"

...Phantom Ganon was easy. You do know the fakes are a different colour, right? They're darker.

Jibar
2007-03-17, 11:30 AM
I thought they were meant to...they're meant to be on the left or...
Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh.
Stupid Ocarina of Time. Stupid walkthrough. Stupid lack of thinking.

Setra
2007-03-18, 08:08 AM
I never saw Midna's personality change instant, if you ask me it changed towards the beginning of getting to the third dungeon.

Of course I always noticed things about her, cause my friends kept telling me she died in the end. Frickin liars -.-;;.

I really was upset when I had to fight Zelda, for two reasons...

1. She's a hot Elf Chick
2. She was a wannabe of Ganondorf from OoT, except easier.

Also, I really like Zant, he was badass at first, which was okay, then he suddenly started to channel Kefka when you finally fight him.

Krytha
2007-03-18, 04:27 PM
Zant was a total weenie as soon as he opened his mouth. Time spent in Twilight realm = 0.5 seconds. Time spent in the supposedly enormous Hyrule Castle = 0.5 seconds. Time spent utterly disappointed = 1.0 seconds. Hmmmm...

The sky city was also a bit weird and total hell until you got the claw! Then it was awesome.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-18, 04:29 PM
Zant was a total weenie as soon as he opened his mouth. Time spent in Twilight realm = 0.5 seconds. Time spent in the supposedly enormous Hyrule Castle = 0.5 seconds. Time spent utterly disappointed = 1.0 seconds. Hmmmm...

Hyrule Castle is huge. However, the final dungeon only requires you to get two keys to fight the boss. There are lots more rooms that you don't even need to enter...:smallsigh:

Jibar
2007-03-19, 11:25 AM
Also, I really like Zant, he was badass at first, which was okay, then he suddenly started to channel Kefka when you finally fight him.

I thought so too.

Also: When you got the double clawshot, if you didn't immediatly start singing the 60s Spiderman song you lose.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-19, 11:26 AM
Screenshot? I think you mean clawshot.

I sang the song during the second half of the dragon boss battle with all the peahats. Does that count?

EvilElitest
2007-03-19, 11:58 AM
Twilight Princess' while a great game in playing style (though i find the Wii control annoying) I think was more of a test run for better games. I still think OoT was better, just for novelty. On and Majora's Mask. That being said, Link games always hint at deep plot but never use it themselves, leaving most of it to the readers ideal. Example would be Link's personallity, he never talks what do you say about him? You make it up yourself.
As for him and Minda, have you noticed a pattern in these games? He flirst with 85 % of the female character and is apperently not interested.
But i would agree, the ending was really weak. I'll say more in about an hour.
from,
EE

NecroPaladin
2007-03-19, 07:22 PM
Also, I really like Zant, he was badass at first, which was okay, then he suddenly started to channel Kefka when you finally fight him.

Okay, gonna say it again. Chances are, Zant was always that...um, quirky. That badassness was likely Ganondorf controlling him. If you think that god talks to you day and night unceasingly, telling you to do things, and you don't know where your mysterious powers come from, and you're in a position of highest authority, you tend to get pretty messed up, if only in private. It probably explains the bizzareness of the twilight monsters that he turns people into.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-19, 10:57 PM
I actually liked Zant's sudden apparent wimpiness at the end. It sort of foreshadows the fight to come with Ganon. eg "If Ganon could turn this crazed loser into a mighty overlord, imagine how tough he'll be when he fights you without the middleman!"

I'd also like to cast another note of praise at the subplot with Illia.

Re: The ending
Actually, it made sense to me. Midna destroyed the Mirror because she didn't want another Zant to rise up. It's also a sort of balance thing: You know, shadows and light kept separate. Besides, they'd lived quite peacefully in the land of shadows before. The only real question is why the Mirror was created in the first place.

And come on, you can't honestly say you didn't see it coming, can you? If the Mirror hadn't been destined for destruction, then the sages would have just said "the Mirror cannot be destroyed" rather than "the Mirror can only be destroyed by the true king of shadows."

Krytha
2007-03-19, 11:23 PM
Bah! The Ilia romance seemed foisted upon the player and there definitely wasn't enough background or character development for it to go anywhere imho.

Ganondorf felt more like a weenie in this game. Maybe that was just artistic direction (he looked... thin), maybe not... In WW he is totally badass from start to finish, although he is beating up a tiny kid (Link is what... SIX? SEVEN?)

Zorg
2007-03-20, 03:20 AM
Re: The ending
Actually, it made sense to me. Midna destroyed the Mirror because she didn't want another Zant to rise up. It's also a sort of balance thing: You know, shadows and light kept separate. Besides, they'd lived quite peacefully in the land of shadows before. The only real question is why the Mirror was created in the first place.

And come on, you can't honestly say you didn't see it coming, can you? If the Mirror hadn't been destined for destruction, then the sages would have just said "the Mirror cannot be destroyed" rather than "the Mirror can only be destroyed by the true king of shadows."

Well...
Zant never seemed to use the mirror (he seemed quite capable of teleporting on his own between worlds, like in the final battle), I thought he only broke it up to prevent Midna's return. Also the True King comment was more implying Midna was the true leader IMO. The only problem with the mirror was the wiseguys chucking a bunch of criminals through it (like Ganon).

And Ilia never really felt like a romance to me, more a close friendship and sense of duty to rescue her - not a romantic love.

Alex Kidd
2007-03-20, 03:32 AM
The thing with the ending that redeemed it for me is how it's setting up for

Link who is now doing his normal post Ganon wandering to spend the next game trying to find a way into the Twilight Realm, to reunite with Midna. It would be an awesome change of pace to have Link come into the sequel with a quest of his own rather than just him wandering into something and being forced into it. If Ninty does that, all my gripes about TP will be forgotten.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-20, 04:41 AM
Ganondorf felt more like a weenie in this game. Maybe that was just artistic direction (he looked... thin), maybe not... In WW he is totally badass from start to finish, although he is beating up a tiny kid (Link is what... SIX? SEVEN?)

Try twelve. Which is two years older than Link was in Majora's Mask, if I remember correctly.

And I think in Minish Cap he was eight or something?

Mewtarthio
2007-03-20, 03:59 PM
Well...
Zant never seemed to use the mirror (he seemed quite capable of teleporting on his own between worlds, like in the final battle), I thought he only broke it up to prevent Midna's return. Also the True King comment was more implying Midna was the true leader IMO. The only problem with the mirror was the wiseguys chucking a bunch of criminals through it (like Ganon).

I'd put good on money on Zant only being able to travel between worlds due to Ganon's power. No more Mirror means no more idiotic incorporeal light beings dropping nasty things on the Twili which means no more Zant.

Bear in mind as well that you can't really use the Mirror to have a happy reuinion of two long-separated peoples: Hylians turn into ghosts if they enter the Twilight (Link's the exception due to his Triforce and the Master Sword), and Twili are severely hurt if they leave the Twilight (look at what happens to Midna after you complete the third dungeon, for instance). The Twili and the Hylians cannot be together.

Again, though, why was the Mirror created in the first place? Anyone catch that?


Try twelve. Which is two years older than Link was in Majora's Mask, if I remember correctly.

And I think in Minish Cap he was eight or something?

I thought that the WW Link had just reached the age of the "hero of legend": That is, he's as old as Young Link in OoT. Young Link was around ten or eleven in OoT, no?

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-21, 04:40 AM
I thought that the WW Link had just reached the age of the "hero of legend": That is, he's as old as Young Link in OoT. Young Link was around ten or eleven in OoT, no?

I'm just going why what Nintendo has said. Maybe the legend was screwed up by the time it finally got to the time of Wind Waker, and they accidentally aged the Hero a bit?

Zorg
2007-03-21, 05:20 AM
Hylians turn into ghosts if they enter the Twilight (Link's the exception due to his Triforce and the Master Sword), and Twili are severely hurt if they leave the Twilight (look at what happens to Midna after you complete the third dungeon, for instance).

True, but look at Midna in the end credits - wholy corporeal and a-ok. What's the dilly-o with that?

And the mirror itself, why it was created by Mister McGuffin of course...

A game of Link and Zelda questing to get back to the Twilight would be cool though.

Krytha
2007-03-21, 09:34 PM
Ever since this thread started kicking around, I've had a new premise for a Zelda game floating inside my head. And since Miyamoto claimed that TP was the last recognizable or "traditional" Zelda game I figure it has as good a chance as any. Basically you end up playing as "Zelda" who disguises herself as a boy as she goes adventuring in search of whatever problem the story writer comes up with this time. How does Link figure? Well, maybe he could use the rescuing this time (the Ladyhawke suggestions supplied this) or could be used as an item/companion (hawk by night/dungeon and prince by day). I guess I just want more Zelda in the legend of zelda and a popular trope is still popular.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-22, 07:28 PM
True, but look at Midna in the end credits - wholy corporeal and a-ok. What's the dilly-o with that?

And the mirror itself, why it was created by Mister McGuffin of course...

A game of Link and Zelda questing to get back to the Twilight would be cool though.

I blame whatever Zelda did to her that healed her in the first place.

...I swear, I spent that entire "sacrifice" scene waiting for the Triforce to appear on Midna's hand, but since it didn't, we can assume a generic "energy" that continues to protect Midna.

On another note entirely, did anyone else get really confused as to why "Princess" Zelda is the one offering the surrender of her kingdom? Whatever happened to the King?

Zorg
2007-03-23, 01:24 AM
Best answer I can think of is that she doesn't become Queen until she marries or some such, so stays as Princess despite being the ruler.

BrokenButterfly
2007-03-24, 03:44 PM
Okay, I finished TP about half-an-hour ago, so I can finally comment properly here...

I felt that parts of the ending and its accompanying fights were excellent, while others were....less...so...

The Good: A good-old Gannondorf sword-fight to finish him off (even if it was easy when you got into the swing of things), a Ganon pig-beast that actually looked decent, (more wolf than pig, but maybe some psycho-boar?) and using Epona in the final battle sequence. Midna looked really cool to me, now that she didn't have a big head and all, (and some sort of discernable figure too).

The Bad: No CitS overview during the panning of every single section over the credits. Would have liked to see some sort of Oococo party! The Epona bit being insanely hard to control, infuriating in fact. And Midna destroying the mirror too. That made no sense (neither did the Zant neck-thing when I first saw it).

Green Bean
2007-03-24, 04:24 PM
[COLOR="navy"]The praise I have for the game is in its cast of supporting characters, possibly the best ever in a Zelda game.

The characters were lovable and diverse. I found myself empathizing with many of them, Zelda and Ganondorf not included. Enjoyable characters included:

<awesome NPC list>



Agreed. The side characters were one of the best parts in the whole game. I don't think I'm alone here when I say I burst out laughing when I saw Malo Mart: Hyrule Branch. :smallbiggrin:

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-24, 04:27 PM
Sometimes I visit the Hyrule City branch of Male Mart just to soak up the atmosphere.

BrokenButterfly
2007-03-25, 01:28 PM
Best answer I can think of is that she doesn't become Queen until she marries or some such, so stays as Princess despite being the ruler.


Queen Elizabeth I anyone?

But I'll admit that it seems the most logical solution.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-25, 06:34 PM
Queen Elizabeth I anyone?

But I'll admit that it seems the most logical solution.

Hyrule is not England.

Jibar
2007-03-26, 10:25 AM
Hyrule is not England.

If it was though, there is very little that would stop me and Yuki from gloating at you.
Every day.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-26, 11:51 AM
Every day.

Krytha
2007-03-26, 04:34 PM
Hyrule is Canada though. AAhhahahaha I live in Hyrule!

BrokenButterfly
2007-03-26, 06:08 PM
Don't worry, I'd gloat too.

But can't we look at another successful monarchy when analysing the nuances of the Hyrule dynasty?

How is Hyrule Canada?

Krytha
2007-03-26, 10:20 PM
Don't worry, I'd gloat too.

But can't we look at another successful monarchy when analysing the nuances of the Hyrule dynasty?

How is Hyrule Canada?

"Canada"

Now turn it upside down, squint and interpret.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-27, 12:59 AM
Don't worry, I'd gloat too.

But can't we look at another successful monarchy when analysing the nuances of the Hyrule dynasty?

How is Hyrule Canada?

Look at it this way:

What's on the Canadian flag? A maple leaf!
What's in the skies above Hyrule? The hidden city of the Ocoocos!

If you can't see the obvious connection, I can't be bothered to point it out to you. Let's just say that it's no coincidence that the Circus Leader's Mask can turn tiny chicks into full-grown Cuccoos...

Krytha
2007-03-28, 06:01 AM
In my vain quest to understand the ending, I went to Wikipedia. It says there that Link returns the Master Sword and then rides AWAY from Ordon, but playing through it again, I thought he was riding TOWARDS Ordon which made me even more displeased than the already enormously ambiguous ending made me before. Does anyone know if I'm just seeing things? I placed Link in the same camera angle (I think... Faron woods + Ordon entranceway is all pretty vague...) and that's what I thought. Plus, they placed Ilia there for a reason I suppose.

Anyone else have a take on this? Maybe Link was just returning Epona so Ilia could try and give animal husbandry a new meaning. Either way, I want to shoot Ilia in her forgetful face with the clawshots.

Zorg
2007-03-28, 08:41 AM
I thought he was heading back into the village too... though if he was leaving that would make it somewhat more bearable.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found Ilia irritating and generally forced into the plot without any good reason (I'd rather Link hung around the screaming monkeys than her).

Krytha
2007-03-29, 02:38 AM
Nope, Ilia's just dumb.

Tyrael
2007-04-03, 03:30 PM
Having just completed TP, I was mightily disappointed with the ending. To be honest, I think it would have been absolutely awesome if it ended with Midna actually being dead. I mean, she had the coolest character arc. She started out as the Princess of Twilight, then was cursed into imp-mode. She then saw Link and decided to selfishly use him for her own purposes to get back at Zant. Yet, through Link's example, she comes to care about the Light World too and comes to a sort of redemption for her past manipulation. Then she apparently sacrifices herself at the end to go into UBERTENTACLEMONSTERMODE and thwack Ganondorf. Ganondorf survives and crumples the helmet right in front of Link (oh snap, he's done it now). The scene is totally set up for the final battle, and Link is fighting not only for the freedom of Hyrule, but also to avenge the death of a beloved companion.

Having Midna come back in the end just cheapened the entire emotional buildup that had been brewing through the entire game, right up to the final battle. I, for one, think that Midna's death would have fit in wonderfully with the darker, harsher, more grim tone that TP sets. Maybe one of the clips in the credits could have Link setting the crumpled helmet atop a little imp-sized grave in the Sacred Grove. That would have been awesome, and IMHO would have really helped drive home the brutal nature of such conflicts. Not all battles are without suffering.

But Midna coming back not only threw all of that potential out the window, but also put her into weird-psycho-alien-giraffe mode, which I found just weird. "Am I so beautiful that you have no words left?" she asks. I just thought to myself, Uh, no lady, I'm staring at your freakin' long neck. And then, to top off the lameness of the ending, she shatters the mirror! And just two seconds beforehand she had been talking about how she and Link should see each other again sometime. Then, oops! So much for that!

Feh, the ending overall just really left me cold. There was so much potential, and they fudged it.

Setra
2007-04-04, 03:58 AM
I hear there's a secret ending, if you beat the game without losing a heart.

It involves Midna and Zelda making out. I'm kidding, if you can't tell. Though can anyone prove me wrong?

Zorg
2007-04-04, 08:31 AM
I'm playing through again, and just finished the Temple of Time...
When you get the mirror piece Midna mentions that the mirror is intrinsicly evil (ie how it turned Yeta evil) and may have to be destroyed to stop its evilness. However I don't recall the mirror being referred to as evil ever again, and it isn't listed as a reason in the end sequence.

Poor writing seems to have lost that it was because the mirror itself was evil she destroys it to prevent it corrupting anything else... but I could just be grasping at straws to make it suck less ;-)

Ranis
2007-04-04, 09:09 AM
I was largely unimpressed with TP as a whole. I guess I was just expecting a LOT more from a game Nintendo had 3 YEARS to make.

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-04, 06:13 PM
I was largely unimpressed with TP as a whole. I guess I was just expecting a LOT more from a game Nintendo had 3 YEARS to make.

Honestly, now, three years isn't much.

Krytha
2007-04-04, 06:59 PM
As Nintendo claims that the next zeldas will be pretty much unrecognizeable (my words, not theirs), it lessens my hopes for a sequel to fix things here. Makes me wonder if they will use the same Link... Pretty much every zelda game has had the same Link in more than one.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-04, 09:37 PM
I was largely unimpressed with TP as a whole. I guess I was just expecting a LOT more from a game Nintendo had 3 YEARS to make.

I suppose I should blame you for that rush job they did on KotoR II. You don't just walk up to a video game and visualize what you want it to do in order to create a new video game, you know.

Ranis
2007-04-04, 10:17 PM
Honestly, now, three years isn't much.

Nope! Not one bit.


I suppose I should blame you for that rush job they did on KotoR II. You don't just walk up to a video game and visualize what you want it to do in order to create a new video game, you know.

Um, about KoToRII-What? That makes not the least bit of sense to me.

But, seriously, they had three years to please LoZ fans. To me, it felt like they were recycling puzzles from previous LoZ's on top of just not doing enough for the time that they had been alotted. I was allowed to have expectations for the game because A) It's a Zelda game, come on and B) They had three YEARS.

And, the music and sound effects was worse than on OoT. They could have recycled the same sound files from the chest-opening from OoT and it would have been better than the little jingle that made me want to eat my Wiimote every time I opened one of the damn things.

Fizban
2007-04-04, 10:24 PM
Now, as for the complaints of it being a bad Wii game, I agree with the review on CAD: it's not. It's the last gamecube game, also placed on the Wii to act as a launch title.

I agree with the way they used the graphics, and that the characters were one of the best parts.

I too though he was riding toward Ordon at the end, Wikipedia is probably wrong. After Midna surviving (which I was okay with) and giving the cryptic "I'll be back", it made no sense for Link to just head back to Ordon.

My main complaint from my first run-through was:
How once you restore Ilia's memory, she just turns into a stock stationary NPC. I spent the entire first part of the game up until Midna gets hurt racing ahead to save Ilia, growing ever more impatient as I waited. Then Midna gets hurt and I'm thinking, whoa, okay she's no longer an annoying hindrance, she's now a better supporting character than Ilia. Then I finally get Ilia's memory back, and that's it. Then the ending hits, and Link just goes back to Ordon.

Also, my experience of the final battle:
So, after getting past the pair of full-armored knight guys, that nearly killed me, I finally get to the final fight.
Puppet Zelda?: holy crap! Did it's job perfectly, got me set up for some butt kickin and then got out of the way for Gannondorf.
Beast Gannon?: d'oh! I went through all my fairies (2 sadly, I didn't buy the bottle of oil >.<) and then all the hearts and fairies in the room before I realized that I was supposed to grapple it like the gorons. I actually started fighting with 4 hearts left, and ended that portion with 1/2 a heart.
Horseback Fight?: awesome idea, poor execution. Does Gannondorf even attack? I smacked him down and went on.
Final Swordfight?: As I had specifically decided to finish WW before getting TP, this was quite familar. I picked up the hearts and fairy and set to work. After I did the "clash", I managed to fumble the controller and not finish him. I ended the game at 1/2 a heart. Smooth.

I'm afraid of the idea that future LoZ's will be as different as implied. I just hope they don't pull something like Starfox Adventures, that made no sense at all. (Their actual reasoning was to put a known character into the generic game idea they had so it would sell, wtf).

Edit: whoops, sorry if my lack of spoiler fu ruined the game for anyone...:smalleek:

Fizban
2007-04-04, 10:29 PM
Nope! Not one bit.



Um, about KoToRII-What? That makes not the least bit of sense to me.

But, seriously, they had three years to please LoZ fans. To me, it felt like they were recycling puzzles from previous LoZ's on top of just not doing enough for the time that they had been alotted. I was allowed to have expectations for the game because A) It's a Zelda game, come on and B) They had three YEARS.

And, the music and sound effects was worse than on OoT. They could have recycled the same sound files from the chest-opening from OoT and it would have been better than the little jingle that made me want to eat my Wiimote every time I opened one of the damn things.
Do you have any idea how much work it takes to make a game? Three years for this good of a game is amazing, even if it did have a few problems.

And how can you say the music was worse than OoT? They were both good in their own way, but TP still had generally more advanced audio. The sound effects were better across the board: there were more individual effects and they had cleaner sound. I don't know about you, but hearing one sound for every single type of sword attack throughout OoT was maddening, whereas in TP I could tell the difference between the two levels of sword spin shout.
The dissonant chords and other creepy sounds were perfect, the opening music was amazing, and every other piece of music was just plain better than OoT.

Krytha
2007-04-04, 11:49 PM
TP definitely had better sound than OoT. Still disappointed with the Ilia and the half baked plot. Hate her. Still disappointed with the game not being longer and wolf development stopping halfway through. Still disappointed with Twilight Realm not being larger (At least 3 dungeons could've fit in there. One dungeon for the realm didn't develop the area at all.) and the way item use dropped off the map outside their specific dungeons. And of course, still disappointed with Hyrule castle and the ganondorf fights and their placement. Having a little farm enclosure with magic walls (overused like crrrrrazy) as the final fight scene? PLEASE. Not even close to the epicness of WWs final fight.

Other than that, the game was great. I disagreed with all the GoYs after playing it though. not that Im sure any other game deserved it.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-04, 11:54 PM
Um, about KoToRII-What? That makes not the least bit of sense to me.

But, seriously, they had three years to please LoZ fans. To me, it felt like they were recycling puzzles from previous LoZ's on top of just not doing enough for the time that they had been alotted. I was allowed to have expectations for the game because A) It's a Zelda game, come on and B) They had three YEARS.

Video games take a lot of work. And I mean a lot of work. KotoR II is a game that was rather infamously rushed to make Christmas roughly two years after the original game came out. You can really tell that the ending is shoddily done, drastically different from the rest of the game. As an interesting side note, the PC version included some bonus content that showed what the game could have been had they spent more time on it.

Now, I'm no game designer, but I am taking Computer Science courses, so I have some inkling of the slightest modicum of the effort that goes into programming a game. It's not the kind of thing you can crank out in one afternoon. And that's only taking into account the programming: You also have to get a quality story, design quality levels, develop quality gameplay, hire quality voice acting in most modern games (and don't think that voice actors read their lines once over and go on to the next job, or that you can find talented voice actors on every street corner), etc. So, yeah, I personally think game developers can take all the time they need.

Jibar
2007-04-05, 02:31 AM
So, yeah, I personally think game developers can take all the time they need.

Duke Nukem.

They really, really can't.

Krytha
2007-04-05, 02:42 AM
You mean, of course, Duke Nukem Forever. As in... it's taking FOREVER!

Ranis
2007-04-05, 07:11 AM
I do realize that it takes quite a long time, but still-it was two years in excess of the time they were allotted.

And the sound-Sorry, but I disagree. The intro music started out stellar, then just died away. I guess I just have an extremely high expectation of music in games in general, they play a large portion of my Enjoyment Factor when playing games.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-04-05, 08:16 AM
At least there is the KotoR II restoration project. As a Wii game, there is really nothing that can change the game to something better.

Yuki Akuma
2007-04-05, 12:50 PM
I do realize that it takes quite a long time, but still-it was two years in excess of the time they were allotted.

Nintendo, as a rule, do not tell their developers "this is the time you must finish the game by". Instead, the development team tells public relations the projected release date, based on how far along they are with the project and how fast it's going.

And, of course, expecting a develpment team to only take one year to make a game is completely stupid. Even if it's based on a pre-existing engine.

Majora's Mask took two years, and they changed the Ocarina of Time engine much less than the differences between the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess engines.

Krytha
2007-04-05, 12:56 PM
Its likely that the next zelda game will be built from the ground up on a new engine.

Sage in the Playground
2007-04-05, 03:18 PM
You mean, of course, Duke Nukem Forever. As in... it's taking FOREVER!

They have to change it evert time a new system is released.

Setra
2007-04-05, 04:29 PM
You mean, of course, Duke Nukem Forever. As in... it's taking FOREVER!
Can't be any worse than Starcraft: Ghost.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-05, 04:45 PM
Duke Nukem.

They really, really can't.

You'll note I said, "All the time they need." And I always thought they'd just cancelled that game and never bothered telling anyone.

1337_master
2007-04-06, 08:02 AM
damn I wish I could play the game...Also, (Just as a quick advertising thing) If you want to really talk about zelda, join Hyrule field. (link in sig)

Krytha
2007-04-06, 04:04 PM
Can't be any worse than Starcraft: Ghost. At least Blizzard had the decency to cancel Ghost.

Setra
2007-04-06, 04:11 PM
At least Blizzard had the decency to cancel Ghost.
It was canceled? That explains a lot.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go back to doing the "Diablo 3 Raindance"

Zorg
2007-04-08, 06:55 AM
I too though he was riding toward Ordon at the end, Wikipedia is probably wrong. After Midna surviving (which I was okay with) and giving the cryptic "I'll be back", it made no sense for Link to just head back to Ordon.

Just checked and he is indeed riding away - explains doofus the hearder getting no response and Ilia looking sad as he goes.

Krytha
2007-04-09, 04:12 AM
yeah, but Link riding is the second last scene (prior to the empty and restored throne room) so unless you're SURE that he was riding away, the herder guy gets no response because Link isnt home yet and Ilia just stands there like an idiot waiting for him forever.

Zorg
2007-04-09, 08:54 AM
Certain - I reloaded and rode away from Ordon - the scenery Link heads towards matches the area just north of the bridge and before the spring (namely two outcroppings of rocks with vines on them, one higher than the other).

Edit: And in regards to Duke Nukem Forever...

http://duke.a-13.net/

Krytha
2007-04-09, 09:17 AM
ok well I guess I feel a little bit better about the ending now. Something that occurred to me was that if Nintendo wants the player to decide for themselves what the ending is (with super ambiguous scenes like that) they should just let the player's actions decide what you get. For example, this game I decided to not show Ilia the piece that gets her memory back and she can sit in Kakariko village for the rest of her life for all I care.