What's Pun-Pun?

[...]

I've heard the phrase "Pun-Pun" around the forums a lot, but I don't really know what it is. Can someone please explain it to me?

[Ratatoskir]

Its a build that abuses the rules to make a character that can get any ability and arbitrarily high stats. It was only made as a thought exercise.

[Kaje]

Pun-Pun is the most powerful possible 3.5 build ever. A level-1 Kobold paladin who uses a knowledge check to become omnipotent.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's this thing. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486) Only really based on one (okay, two if you count candle of invocation) rules quirks, actually.

As an aside, does anyone know how to access threads from the gleemax forums now that wizards dumped the archive? Any link to old threads there just redirects to this default page (http://community.wizards.com/?t=491801).

[Sir Chuckles]

Punpun is a town in India.

Pun Pun is a theoretical build that achieves divinity and NI levels of everything within a very short amount of game time. There's a small variety of ways it is achieved, but something to remember is that Pun Pun is not meant to be played. It is purely a mental exercise.

[Ban_Hanna]

This isn't the most up to date build of punpun. But it shows the manipulate form trick.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29

[Yuki Akuma]

Pun-Pun is the mechanism by which Nut-Pun came into existence, obviously.

I will forever be amused that Pun-Pun was made a kobold specifically because kobolds are pathetic... while, now that 3.5 has finished publication, it turns out that kobolds are one of the stronger races out there thanks to native access to the Dragon type.

[Baroknik]

Pun-Pun is the mechanism by which Nut-Pun came into existence, obviously.

I will forever be amused that Pun-Pun was made a kobold specifically because kobolds are pathetic... while, now that 3.5 has finished publication, it turns out that kobolds are one of the stronger races out there thanks to native access to the Dragon type.

I believe it was chosen because kobolds qualify as Scaled Ones with no LA or RHD, actually...

[OldTrees1]

I've heard the phrase "Pun-Pun" around the forums a lot, but I don't really know what it is. Can someone please explain it to me?

There is a monster printed in Serpent Kingdoms with the ability to give any ability to another creature even if the ability does not yet exist.

Pun Pun uses this monster to gain the ability to give itself any ability it wants even if that ability does not exist yet.

[...]

Well, now that one of my questions is answered, I have 2 more. What is Pazuzu and what are Sarruhks?
I feel really stupid asking these questions.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, now that one of my questions is answered, I have 2 more. What is Pazuzu and what are Sarruhks?
I feel really stupid asking these questions.

Pazuzu: Demon who grants wishes to Good people.

Sarrukhs: The beings who created dragons in the Forgotten Realms setting.

[OldTrees1]

Well, now that one of my questions is answered, I have 2 more. What is Pazuzu and what are Sarruhks?
I feel really stupid asking these questions.

Sarruhks:

There is a monster printed in Serpent Kingdoms with the ability to give any ability to another creature even if the ability does not yet exist.

Pun Pun uses this monster to gain the ability to give itself any ability it wants even if that ability does not exist yet.

Pazuzu is a Demon lord in the Fiendish Codex I that is willing to come and grant a wish if his name is said 3 times.

[Malroth]

Pazuzu is a Demon prince who according to one source can be non magicaly summoned with a successful knowledge check to grant a good character a wish in exchange for a piece of their soul.

Sarrukhs are the creatures from "Serpent Kingdoms" that were the proginetor race of all the scaled beings in Toril who created the Lizard Folk/Kobolds/Naga/Yaun Ti/Dragons to be their slaves. They posess the "Manipulate Form" Ability which allows them to freely alter reptilian creatures.

[Werephilosopher]

Well, now that one of my questions is answered, I have 2 more. What is Pazuzu and what are Sarruhks?
I feel really stupid asking these questions.

Pazuzu is a demon who can be summoned by chanting his name thrice, and usually grants wishes to Good people to sway them to the side of Evil.

Sarrukhs are a powerful Faerunian race with the ability to grant "scaled ones" any ability in the game. Kobolds are scaled ones, as is Pun-Pun's familiar (a snake I believe), so they grant each other powerful abilities using this.

Aw, swordsage'd

[Amphetryon]

Pazuzu is a demon who can be summoned by chanting his name thrice, and usually grants wishes to Good people to sway them to the side of Evil.

Sarrukhs are a powerful Faerunian race with the ability to grant "scaled ones" any ability in the game. Kobolds are scaled ones, as is Pun-Pun's familiar (a snake I believe), so they grant each other powerful abilities using this.

Aw, swordsage'd

As I recall, Pazuzu is especially fond of corrupting paladins, making it more likely that Pun-Pun's initial request of him all the more likely to succeed.

[Divide by Zero]

Really, at its core, Pun-Pun is just about abusing the poor wording of Manipulate Form. Pazuzu, being a kobold, and everything else are just various ways of getting access to that ability more quickly and easily.

[pwykersotz]

I wish this thread had existed 5 years ago when I was trying to figure this out. I googled for hours trying to understand the specifics. :smalltongue:

[A Tad Insane]

Really, at its core, Pun-Pun is just about abusing the poor wording of Manipulate Form. Pazuzu, being a kobold, and everything else are just various ways of getting access to that ability more quickly and easily.

Manipulate form is the "gate way drug", everything else is just abusing the fact that you can do anything written in any of the 3.5 and 3.0 books.

[Extra Anchovies]

Manipulate form is the "gate way drug", everything else is just abusing the fact that you can do anything written in any of the 3.5 and 3.0 books.

True. It's the key in the lock, the first step on a path to broken rules, thrown books, and regretting having ever allowed Serpent Kingdoms into the game.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As I recall, Pazuzu is especially fond of corrupting paladins, making it more likely that Pun-Pun's initial request of him all the more likely to succeed.

I'm pretty sure that he gives no whistles, no rules-lawyering, no monkey-paw style wishes to Paladins, but they shift alignment 1 step closer to CE, he continues to grant those wishes until the "summoner" is CE at which he refuses the call.

[Prime32]

I will forever be amused that Pun-Pun was made a kobold specifically because kobolds are pathetic... while, now that 3.5 has finished publication, it turns out that kobolds are one of the stronger races out there thanks to native access to the Dragon type.The ironic thing is that Dragonwrought kobolds can't become Pun-Pun. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Why not? Are Dragons not Scaled ones of Toril? Dragonwrought is a setting indepent feat.

[Urpriest]

Manipulate form is the "gate way drug", everything else is just abusing the fact that you can do anything written in any of the 3.5 and 3.0 books.

Yes and no. In my opinion, the interesting aspect of Pun-Pun isn't Manipulate Form itself, (Manipulate Form being really obviously broken in a fundamental way), rather it's the consequences: now that you have every (published) ability in the game, how do you get things that aren't abilities? Thus there are tricks for nigh-infinite ability scores, divine ranks, HD gain...several of which were really novel optimization tricks in their own right. Just like the Cheater of Mystra is more than the ability to cast in an AMF, Pun-Pun is more than just Manipulate Form.

[Prime32]

Why not? Are Dragons not Scaled ones of Toril? Dragonwrought is a setting indepent feat.Yeah, Dragons explicitly don't count as Scaled Ones.

[Segev]

Specifically, the FIRST time a Paladin makes a wish to Pazuzu, Pazuzu takes special care not merely to avoid twisting the wish, but to actively prevent unforeseen consequences that the Paladin might feel made the wish not worth it. His goal is to make the Paladin feel justified in summoning Pazuzu additional times, and more comfortable with it each time, opening up the path to corruption while making it look good and safe.

[Chronos]

You don't need any special tricks for ability score gain, as Manipulate Form also lets you change a Scaled One's ability scores directly. It's capped by the sarrukh's corresponding ability score, but that's easy enough to get around through temporary buffs: Start with a 10 Str, cast Bull's Strength on yourself, and boost your familiar to 14 Str. Then cast Bull's Strength on your familiar, and it boosts you to 18 Str, etc.

[kardar233]

I think this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2705.0) actually illustrates the interesting part of Pun-Pun; that is, using Manipulate Form to nab infinite combos and such through combinations of printed 3.5 abilities.

Sure, you can just give yourself the ability "I Win", but it's pretty cool to see how you can get infinite attack range or whatever with just printed abilities.

[atemu1234]

I had a player who used the Sarrukh-loophole. I told him if he tried to do something to break the game, I'd have another Sarrukh hunt him down and take away all his powers. And then maybe kill him. Because they can.

[Urpriest]

You don't need any special tricks for ability score gain, as Manipulate Form also lets you change a Scaled One's ability scores directly. It's capped by the sarrukh's corresponding ability score, but that's easy enough to get around through temporary buffs: Start with a 10 Str, cast Bull's Strength on yourself, and boost your familiar to 14 Str. Then cast Bull's Strength on your familiar, and it boosts you to 18 Str, etc.

Oh sure, but that's comparatively slow. The cute thing about the whole Bellflower Tattoo trick is that it's exponential.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I have to agree with Urpriest, the beauty of Pun pun isn't that he is all powerful, but all the tricks, rules interaction and stuff that came to light because of him. For example Pun Pun first ascended as a level 17 Psion or Wizard (I can't remember exactly) and while Punpun is well Pun Pun, at it's core it isn't that different from a standard high level caster, but people thought "I can do better" and they did! Going for lower ascension and when someone found a RAW way of stopping him (Omnificer) someone said "Hell naw, I ain't going to be stopped by something as trivial as infinite knowledge" and they managed to avoid that. To me that is really beautiful.

[123456789blaaa]

The formatting was super messed up on the WOTC boards so I fixed it here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6637.0) on the MMB. Easier to read.