Flying enemies: why so OP?

[Pinkie Pyro]

Around here, a lot of people talk about how a normal martial character will get completely overpowered by a flying creature, but why?

It seems very easy to counter, you simply need a returning bolas (add skilled to avoid the -4 penalty, if you care) and to succeed on your trip attempt, as prone creatures are "on the ground".

Obviously this doesn't solve the issue of, say, a huge dragon flying overhead with a huge bonus on his roll VS trip.

[sideswipe]

can you throw a bolas 100 ft up accurately? that raptorian scout with flyby attack can (shoot with a bow). and will ping you until you die.

the flying monster attacks on its own terms and when it wants. you have to fight it on the back foot even if its a melee swooping type.

[holywhippet]

One of the examples is that of a flying spell caster with a greater invisibility spell active. A fighter can only take a wild guess as to their location without some kind of magical aid. The rules should also include the problem of shooting at something higher than you are (I don't think they do) as it should be harder since you are going against gravity.

Bolas only have a range of 10 feet so anything that is flying at a reasonable distance up will have a large penalty to hit.

[TheIronGolem]

Only winged fliers can be tripped in 3.5, and in Pathfinder even those can't, by RAW. Even that aside, it's almost always trivial for a flier to simply stay out of range of your bolas/nets/tanglefoot bags. You can switch to longer ranged weapons, certainly, but they'll still be able to dictate the terms of the fight.

[Greenish]

That's assuming you can trip flying creatures at all, and that they immediately fall* (even if they're flying without wings), and that they come in bola range (caps at 50 ft. with -10 distance penalty), and that you can trip them.


*See how far your "prone creature is on the ground" interpretation gets in actual play. If it actually works, great, if your ship sinks in the middle of the sea, just drop prone and teleport on the ground.

[Rhaegar14]

That's assuming you can trip flying creatures at all, and that they immediately fall* (even if they're flying without wings), and that they come in bola range (caps at 50 ft. with -10 distance penalty), and that you can trip them.


*See how far your "prone creature is on the ground" interpretation gets in actual play. If it actually works, great, if your ship sinks in the middle of the sea, just drop prone and teleport on the ground.

I cannot for the life of me find this rule in my books, but I BELIEVE that by RAW a flying creature can attempt to "catch" itself somehow if it has more than its speed in distance to fall.

[holywhippet]

Rather than bolas, you'd be better readying a net to entangle the flier if they moved into melee range since you can stop them moving around using the rope. Wouldn't work for flying ranged attackers though.

[Karnith]

I cannot for the life of me find this rule in my books, but I BELIEVE that by RAW a flying creature can attempt to "catch" itself somehow if it has more than its speed in distance to fall.
There is a rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#tacticalAerialMovement) for creatures that fail to maintain their minimum forward speed in the air to make a Reflex save to recover and stop themselves from falling.

[Azoth]

AFB atm but a flying creature that is tripped falls a set distance when tripped. If it doesn't hit the ground from that it can recover on its next initiative pass and regain altitude normally.

[Daishain]

I'm not even sure bolas would even work to bring a winged character down save on a really, really lucky attempt. Realistically I mean, not RAW.

Once the wings are extended, the Wingspan of even a small flying critter is too wide for a standard bola to wrap around in a position to actually interfere with its work. You are likely to jerk the creature around at least a bit, but that's true of all ranged attacks. You could manage to knock them out of the sky if you aimed for one of the wingtips, and throw with enough force to jerk the wing closed. But not only will they have the chance to recover if high enough, you are now aiming for one of the smallest portions of your target that also happens to be moving the most. Good luck on that one.

Now, nets are a different matter. But throwing those a fair distance is just a bit difficult. And a melee swooper with half a brain cell that sees you readying one on the ground is likely to change his approach.

[Arbane]

In Pathfinder, by the rules, what can you do to force down fliers?

[Necroticplague]

1. Mundane melee untouchability.

Simply put, if you're melee, than without a specific race or access to some kind of magic, you can't attack them most the time. Thrown weapons typically have crappy range increments, meaning they can simply stand a relatively short distance away and plink you. This is especially true of the movement-restricting thrown weapons (harpoon, net, bolas), which to my knowlege, are all 10-foot increments.

2. Mundane archer horribleness.

So, since melee or thrown weapons are freaking trash in this situation, you decide to pull out a ranged weapon instead. Maybe your monk has a backup sling, the fighter carries an emergency bow. However, without using a hefty amount of magic and a large amount of character resources on it, normal archery isn't very damaging. The damage dice is crud, the melee character resorting to his backup is gonna have crap to hit, distance is gonna penalize their accuracy, and almost all ways of increasing ranged damage involve making more attacks (instead of making the ones you have more potent (in this way, uberchargers and archers are opposites of each other)), so DR hurts even more.

That said, no statement is absolute in dnd, not even this one. Maybe you're a half-goristro thri-keen Tiger Claw adept, who can jump high enough to jump up and grapple them to the ground. Maybe you have a heavily-enchanted sword that can be thrown as part of it. Maybe you can use a nearby cliff as a jumping-off point. Maybe you can find terrain that forces them into a more comfortable distance. Heck, maybe you're a Hulking hurler, who can throw a rock so heavy that it smashes through whatever DR they might have. However, these are all "what if"s that can't be assumed.

[Esprit15]

I think the fact that your solution requires an enchanted exotic weapon and actually still fails is why flying creatures are OP.

It's about options, and the flying creature having more, better options than the mundane. (Also, pretty sure you could deliver something nasty on an arrow, which will have a lot more range than your bolas, since our price range includes returning weapons).

[OldTrees1]

In 3.5,
Tripping a flying opponent makes them stall. It does not make them teleport to prone.
Stalled creatures can recover but will have lost altitude.

[Bhaakon]

In Pathfinder, by the rules, what can you do to force down fliers?

Any time a winged flier takes damage, they must succeed a DC 10 fly check or drop 10 feet. It's unfortunate that the check is so trivial. It would make sense if it scaled with the damage somehow.

An airborne collision with an object as large as the winged flier or larger can result in immediately plummeting to the ground if the flier fails a DC 25 fly check. It's not really an option unless you're running one of those hurling barbarians or toting a catapult around (and even then, a lot of flier are large enough that it won't matter).

Gunslinger's Targeting Deed (DC 20 fly check or fall 20 feet), but the target must have wings to shoot.

Anything causing paralysis causes a winged flier to plummet, though that's a difficult condition for a mundane character to impart.

Anything that prevents a winged flier from moving at least half its fly speed or forces it to hover triggers a fly check to stay aloft (entangling, stunning, etc), but they're fairly trivial checks for most fliers.

Magical flying looks to be pretty much immune to being dragged to earth.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Flying enemies should only be a serious issue in the mid levels. They're quite rare at the lowest levels. At higher levels, you can/should grab a magic item that provides flight; all day flight (at, admittedly, low CL) is available for 13k, which is incidentally about 1/4 WBL of a level 11 character, 1/2 WBL for a level 8 character for those who save up money and know a crafter. It's those higher single digit levels where you're relying on the mage to burn a relatively powerful spell slot and standard action to keep you relevant.

This is not to say that flying isn't OP. It is. But that means PCs will prioritize getting it, so the playing field gets evened a bit.

[Telok]

Actually flight isn't a big issue except against players (not characters, this issue is completely independent of the characters) who are totally unprepared. Sleep and Slaying ammunition is core, the Feather Tokens of the tree and whip are pretty cheap. The Horn of Fog, Eversmoking Bottle, and a simple potion of Invisibility can make you untargettable by fliers. The Elemental Gem is 2,250gp and gives you a large air elemental for 11 rounds. Even the poor mundane tower shield can stop anything but area effects from a flier.

Now, a prepared flying caster or a smart dragon attacking unprepared melee-only mundanes is "totally OP" and rather unfair if there was no warning given and no chance for the characters to prepare, evade, or choose the terrain. But if things are that extreme then a bat swarm is probably too "OP" for them.

Harpies, wyverns, and magic carpets are normally part of the assumed setting. Being incapable of affecting critters of appropriate CR is almost always due to player choice instead of character options.

[RenaldoS]

Why don't players just buy gryphons? I believe they run about 5k gold. Or else take leadership and take a flying mount cohort?

[Greenish]

Why don't players just buy gryphons? I believe they run about 5k gold. Or else take leadership and take a flying mount cohort?Can't fit indoors, and mounted combat rules are awful. And bought mounts are fairly fragile.

Leadership is the most powerful feat in the game, so yeah, that'd help.

[Sir Chuckles]

Why don't players just buy gryphons? I believe they run about 5k gold. Or else take leadership and take a flying mount cohort?

Because then the Gryphons become bigger targets than they are, and the riders may not have very good ride checks. This can lead to inability to fight while on such a mount, falling off the mount, and more.
5k, except at later levels where money is more plentiful and the threats that are common kill gryphons by sneezing on them, is also not a good price to pay when 5k can easily be the difference for a pivotal piece of equipment.

In addition, taking Leadership like that is not an option for every character. Low charisma Fighters, feat starved Clerics, people looking to go in certain or multiple prestige classes...the list goes on.
Although it's a great feat, using it in this way is somewhat of a poor usage. Wild Cohort would likely be better, though.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, by the rules, what can you do to force down fliers?

For clumsy or unskilled fliers, just damage them - they will have to repeatedly make Fly checks.

Otherwise, the answer seems pretty obvious to me - make them come to you. If you hide indoors or use terrain, they can soar through the air all they like, they're not hitting you. A monster who is 100 feet up is usually a monster you can ignore until they come within range.

Failing that, non-casters in Pathfinder can craft magical gear, so just make yourself some Boots of Flying if it's that big an issue.

[master4sword]

In addition, taking Leadership like that is not an option for every character. Low charisma Fighters, feat starved Clerics, people looking to go in certain or multiple prestige classes...the list goes on.
Although it's a great feat, using it in this way is somewhat of a poor usage. Wild Cohort would likely be better, though.

Not to mention the fact that Leadership is probably the most commonly-banned feat.

[ace rooster]

Flying is not so much OP as a standard tactic for avoiding melee, and one amoung many. Melee specialists do not have any answer as standard, except cry in the corner. Answers like the one you gave are viable, but at best they are situational and expensive.

It is more an issue of melee being a poor choice for many/most situations. Against a CR appropriate melee focused opponent, they will generally be better at it than you, unless you make no compromises with your build (How does your level 4 build fare against a zombie bear? Don't forget the improved grab and a grapple of +19). Against other opponents with space to move melee is not good because you need to enter melee against an opponent that doesn't want to, which requires build compromises and can still be tricky. Melee is only really good against opponents who for some reason cannot (or will not) escape, and would prefer not to be in melee. All other opponents will avoid melee or be better at it. Flying is simply the easiest and cheekiest way of avoiding melee, after running away (using the withdraw action to go round a corner, or just running).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Flying is not so much OP as a standard tactic for avoiding melee, and one amoung many. Melee specialists do not have any answer as standard, except cry in the corner. Answers like the one you gave are viable, but at best they are situational and expensive.


That's a bit of an exaggaration. A properly build melee character works just fine against most enemies. "Properly build" just happens to include flight, or at least a way to counter it. It also includes defenses like miss chances so you're not insta-gibbed when going into melee range against big time melee opponents.

The standard melee answer for flying enemies is, incidentally, getting flight yourself. You'll want it anyway for its utility as soon as you can afford it.

[dascarletm]

It also assumes you are currently out in the open. Doesn't so much matter in a city-scape campaign or another one where large open areas aren't the norm.

[Gemini476]

It also assumes you are currently out in the open. Doesn't so much matter in a city-scape campaign or another one where large open areas aren't the norm.

City-scapes tend to be rather open on the vertical axis, unless you're going for some really cluttered ones with lots of junk between the buildings.

Dungeons, on the other hand, tend to be rather smaller on the vertical axis. Which is what is relevant when talking about flyers. Except in boss rooms, of course, since this isDungeons & Dragons, or in large Underdark-style caves.

[dascarletm]

City-scapes tend to be rather open on the vertical axis, unless you're going for some really cluttered ones with lots of junk between the buildings.

Dungeons, on the other hand, tend to be rather smaller on the vertical axis. Which is what is relevant when talking about flyers. Except in boss rooms, of course, since this isDungeons & Dragons, or in large Underdark-style caves.

If you're in a large city-scape you can always duck into the nearest building and loose your would-be pursuer. Or if you are doing the chasing, then duck into the building and re-engage in more favorable circumstance.

I've only maybe fought flying enemies in an open field with no, trees, overhangs, or any sort of cover to be had perhaps once or twice in all of my DnD career. Though that's just my experience.

One of my DMs likes forests quite a bit so....

[OldTrees1]

City-scapes tend to be rather open on the vertical axis, unless you're going for some really cluttered ones with lots of junk between the buildings.

Dungeons, on the other hand, tend to be rather smaller on the vertical axis. Which is what is relevant when talking about flyers. Except in boss rooms, of course, since this isDungeons & Dragons, or in large Underdark-style caves.

1) Why are enemies restricted to dungeons? [I may have parsed what you said wrong. Correct me if that is the case.]
2) Why would flying enemies live in cramped dungeons rather than dungeons with room to flap about? This is dungeon building 101 just as you don't forget the water for the aquatic enemies or the shadows for the stealthy enemies.

[Gemini476]

1) Why are enemies restricted to dungeons?
2) Why would flying enemies live in cramped dungeons rather than dungeons with room to flap about? This is dungeon building 101 just as you don't forget the water for the aquatic enemies or the shadows for the stealthy enemies.

I was more giving an example of a common area in which flight isn't all that useful - anywhere with a ceiling of less than 20ft or so, really, although you need to get to 60ft before you start getting out of rock-throwing range IIRC.

So flight is not really a big issue in most dungeons (although exceptions exist). Or indoors environments, unless you're in a cathedral or something.

Running into a building has the issue that you're pretty much stuck in there and need to avoid windows since your opponent presumably has a bow and could just land somewhere and snipe through them. It's probably your best tactic, though, if whoever is in charge of the city is on your side. Let the city watch sort 'em out and all that.

[OldTrees1]

I was more giving an example of a common area in which flight isn't all that useful - anywhere with a ceiling of less than 20ft or so, really, although you need to get to 60ft before you start getting out of rock-throwing range IIRC.

So flight is not really a big issue in most dungeons (although exceptions exist). Or indoors environments, unless you're in a cathedral or something.

Running into a building has the issue that you're pretty much stuck in there and need to avoid windows since your opponent presumably has a bow and could just land somewhere and snipe through them. It's probably your best tactic, though, if whoever is in charge of the city is on your side. Let the city watch sort 'em out and all that.

I am confused.
Are you talking about the invaders(normally PCs) using flight? In that case they will encounter places where flight is poorly suited.
Are you talking about the inhabitants using flight? In that case they would be living is places the fit their abilities. A dungeon of winged inhabitants is unlikely to have a ceiling under 60ft (with the exception of choke points).

[Werephilosopher]

This thread is reminding me of a Dragon Magazine article about taking down dragons. It had some kind of wing clamps as exotic throwing weapons that could hinder flight. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find them. :smallfrown:

[Vogonjeltz]

Around here, a lot of people talk about how a normal martial character will get completely overpowered by a flying creature, but why?

It seems very easy to counter, you simply need a returning bolas (add skilled to avoid the -4 penalty, if you care) and to succeed on your trip attempt, as prone creatures are "on the ground".

Obviously this doesn't solve the issue of, say, a huge dragon flying overhead with a huge bonus on his roll VS trip.

Why wouldn't the martial just use a bow + cover? There's no cover in the air.
And as a thrown weapon, Bolas max range is 50' (five range increments).


One of the examples is that of a flying spell caster with a greater invisibility spell active. A fighter can only take a wild guess as to their location without some kind of magical aid. The rules should also include the problem of shooting at something higher than you are (I don't think they do) as it should be harder since you are going against gravity.

Bolas only have a range of 10 feet so anything that is flying at a reasonable distance up will have a large penalty to hit.

That's a problem of greater invisibility, the flight isn't the problem.


Can't fit indoors, and mounted combat rules are awful. And bought mounts are fairly fragile.

Leadership is the most powerful feat in the game, so yeah, that'd help.

What is this hypothetical indoors that allows for 100' ceilings but can't fit a large sized creature, for example a griffon?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why wouldn't the martial just use a bow + cover? There's no cover in the air.
And as a thrown weapon, Bolas max range is 50' (five range increments).
Doing noticable damage with archery requires a pretty big feat investment. Just grabbing a bow doesn't really cut it, and cover doesn't do anything against spells and abilities that don't need an attack roll. There's plenty of long range spells (which start at 440ft +40ft/level). Hitting that far with even a composite longbow on a character not build for it (high Str fighters often have relatively low Dex) can be a problem, in addition to the low damage.
There's also the cost of getting a bow enchanted to be somewhat level appropiate.


That's a problem of greater invisibility, the flight isn't the problem.

Against an invisible enemy on the ground you have at least a chance at getting the correct square. You can also throw some flour or torchbug paste if you can't afford a proper counter for some reason, which doesn't really work that well when the enemy is flying.


What is this hypothetical indoors that allows for 100' ceilings but can't fit a large sized creature, for example a griffon?
A flying medium creature can just stop flying and start again as soon as there is room. A griffon rider has to leave his mount outside if the space is too small. Griffons also only have average maneuverability, so they need quite a bit of space to turn.
And that's not getting into the problems of mounts in general - survivability chief among them. At the level where you can comfortably afford a flying mount it's usually close to being a one-hit kill for level appropiate enemies.
You're better off just spending your gold on an item that lets you fly yourself.

Sure, a melee fighter won't have trouble with every flying enemy. Sometimes circumstances and terrain do work in your favour. You're a PC though so you should prepare for the situations where they don't, because dying is expensive. Assuming you're in a position to be rezzed at all.

[OldTrees1]

What is this hypothetical indoors that allows for 100' ceilings but can't fit a large sized creature, for example a griffon?

Gauth caves? :smallbiggrin:

However you are right that most places with 100' ceilings would have the 20ft x 20ft horizontal space required for a griffon to fly.