A big shiny New! fan-theory for Elan's Tarquin-toppling plan.

[Lassan]

A while back i posted on a thread about elan's super secret plan to topple his dad

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?343939-A-tardy-theory-on-Elan%92s-Tarquin-toppling-Plan-(Yes-Another-one)

My pet theory in that thread did stand up so well to scrutiny, not gonna rehash it, so here's another one...

This one is based on Tarquin revealing his entire plan to Elan, villainous monologue style.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html

Comic #758

Some of my favorite tidbits include:

Tarquin
"the crux of the plan was to avoid making myself a target as I worked to forge the greatest empire the world has ever seen"

"politically it meant controlling more than one state at one time"

"two members of my team "advise" the weeping king on his throne of regrets"

"after the so-called free city of doom has had a few months of brutality under the empire of tears, my final two associates in the empire of sweat will arrange the "liberation" of the city"

"no guerillas, no rebellion, no armed resistance by the populace. because no-one realizes that they are still under the thumbs of the same six people"

To which Elan responds

"And then what? you'll just form them into one big super-ultra-mega empire?"

To which Tarquin responds, by committing the villain's CLASSIC BLUNDER.

He tells Elan what can stop him.

"No! Haven't you been listening? that'll just encourage the elves or someone to attack us."

So here it is:

Tarquin's whole plan nobody realizing that he and the Vector Leigon are in charge.

While Haley's dad and his buddy realize that this is going on, It's possible that they only know that Tarquin is the ringleader of the plan. They don't really seem to know WHO the other conspiring parties in the plan are, as evidenced by them not using any of the Vector Legion's member's NAMES, and operating off of speculation in their explanation to Roy.

After the order's fight with the Vector Legion, they know the names, classes, levels, and approximate spell/psipowers lists of the majority of the entire legion.

I bet elan told the thieves guild to track the comings and goings of the vector legion using spying/scrying, and to compile a full profile on them.

They couldn't do this before, as they didn't know who any of the members were except for Tarquin.

Once they can PROVE their conspiracy is actually happening, and who is doing this, selling this info to another government's spies, such as the elves will cast suspicion on the region

A few spymasters sent in to prove/confirm the intel, and BAM!

Con is seen through.

Other nations, jealous/scared of a unified continent take the vector legion down.

Hard.

[Keltest]

It does seem like a sound plan, but its based on the assumption that such evidence exists. There would pretty much have to be proof of correspondence between the 6 (now 5) members of the legion, and given the way magic works, it seems quite likely that such evidence does not exist outside of the memories of the Legion.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like this plan more than the previous one, largely because that line of Tarquin's features into it rather than is ignored. I will agree with Keltest that evidence may be difficult to produce, and it may be difficult to convince the people the truth of what they are saying (who's to say it's not some crazy conspiracy theory?) I think it would be interesting if Tarquin told Elan that tidbit on purpose, since it's such a classic blunder.

[RNGgod]

This is unlikely, in my opinion.


While this is a pretty good plan, remember that Ian's reaction to Elan's plan was "deviant glee"; it was clearly something he hadn't considered and found impressive.

Ian's whole plan all along has been telling people about the Vector Legion plot; but "those who listen tend to die in the arena." Sure, telling other nations/the elves is more effective, but it's essentially the same spiel. So no, I think it's something else.

[falsedot]

Even if they provide evidence to the elves, why would they invade as long as the 3 empires dont plan to attack? At most they might try to destabilise the area, trigger a few rebellions

[Keltest]

Even if they provide evidence to the elves, why would they invade as long as the 3 empires dont plan to attack? At most they might try to destabilise the area, trigger a few rebellions

Tarquin seemed to be under the impression that the elves would not like a large unified human force of less than sterling alignment on their borders.

[Lassan]

@keltest Agreed, it would be dependent on proof of correspondence, I'm a little fuzzy on D&D scrying rules, (not to mention the Giant is known to "house-rule") but I'm under the assumption that given enough info of the target the right "training and equipment" as Ian says in comic #941, combined with standard cloak and dagger intel gathering it might be doable.

Again, they were in the EVIL STRONGHOLD and got lots of free info. Again, it seems like it would be a doable thing for a rogue's guild-resistance to be able to pull off. Hells, it's simple enough where if I were a rogue I would have wanted to think of it first.

not to mention. Elan had time to write down the name, gender, classes, and other pertinent info of at least 4/5 remaing members to make it easier. I assume high level spells and psionics generally attract attention unless proper countermeasures are used, and proper countermeasures make scrying "dead zones" where it would make sense for traditional infiltration techniques to be employed.

@RNGod. I did consider that a potential fatal flaw in my theory. On re-reading that strip i did however notice, that Ian only referred to Tarquin by name. I'm on the assumption that he was unable to gather accurate info before primarily because he did not know who to spy on A. and B, was too busy being trapped in a gladiatorial arena to find out.

@falsedot. as to promising not to attack, I agree that is a potential flaw. however, evil empires are free to promise and break treaties at will. Sure they may promise not to attack. They might even mean it! however, how trusting are elves in this world? from what i see in their reaction to goblins in #707, "The only good goblins are dead goblins" not trusting enough for that to necessarily be a theory-breaker.

I will also point out, that if they could scry the locations of the 5 members of the vector legion with Ian's help, they could do better than "destabilize" the region. They could coordinate a raid on the vector legion, to neutralize them, if they saw them as a big enough threat.

and thanks Keltest, for reaffirming that
a continent controlled by exactly 5 people is a significant military threat, and that it doesn't make sense to let it exist if you live next door.

Any other thoughts on this one? I admit it depends on some supposition, (most particularly the vector legions other 5 members being unknown to Ian before the Order met them) but barring a killer bit of counter-evidence, I see it as at least plausible, if not a highly probable way to topple tarquin

[Darth Paul]

Or just, y'know, topple Tarquin personally. Along with his cronies in due course. Sure, it plays out like a vendetta, but it's not as if the Order doesn't have a debt to pay back against those who tried to kill them repeatedly. Perhaps removing Tarquin and either Laurin or Myron from their positions would suffice to send the rest packing; they seem smart enough to realize when the game is over and it's time to head for the locker room.

[Jay R]

You don't have to tell everyone - just the Empress. She eats Tarquin; problem solved.

[Keltest]

You don't have to tell everyone - just the Empress. She eats Tarquin; problem solved.

Empress: "Oh, good for him. Can I have dinner now?"

[ti'esar]

He's not speaking hypothetically, folks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html)

[Kish]

Fox's Cunning.

Or just finding out what makes her treat Tarquin as someone to obey rather than a food item and remove it.

[Keltest]

Fox's Cunning.

Or just finding out what makes her treat Tarquin as someone to obey rather than a food item and remove it.

Somehow im not sure removing her low intelligence score will necessarily have the desired effect.

[Glodart]

Okay, how about this:
V casts familicide on Elan, then asks Durkon to resurrect him. There, no more Tarquin!

:smalltongue:

[Jay R]

Fox's Cunning.

Or just finding out what makes her treat Tarquin as someone to obey rather than a food item and remove it.

Maybe cast Chicken's Flavor on Tarquin.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay, how about this:
V casts familicide on Elan, then asks Durkon to resurrect him. There, no more Tarquin!

:smalltongue:
Or Elan's Mom.

[Amphiox]

Or Elan's Mom.

And depending how prolific Tarquin has been, how much Nale got around before hooking up with Sabine (or after!), what kind of youthful adventures Elan's Mom went on in her early (and perhaps later years), and all the same for the yet unmentioned grandparents and great-grandparents of that familial line, it could take out a sizable chunk of the entire human(oid) population of the Plane.

[Lassan]

^dat familicide plan. Escalated quickly much?

[breathandpaper]

No thread is complete without a mention of Familicide.

But didn't we already see what Elan's plan was? As in, Julio showing up to fight him?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No thread is complete without a mention of Familicide.

But didn't we already see what Elan's plan was? As in, Julio showing up to fight him?

We're talking about the plan he showed to Ian. His plan with Julio was a different one.

[137beth]

Tarquin seemed to be under the impression that the elves would not like a large unified human force of less than sterling alignment on their borders.

However, The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919069&viewfull=1#post15919069) does not seem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919361&viewfull=1#post15919361) to think so (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919523&viewfull=1#post15919523).

Remember, Tarquin thinking something does not make it so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin&p=16575446&viewfull=1#post16575446)

[Keltest]

However, The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919069&viewfull=1#post15919069) does not seem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919361&viewfull=1#post15919361) to think so (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919523&viewfull=1#post15919523).

Remember, Tarquin thinking something does not make it so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin&p=16575446&viewfull=1#post16575446)

Yeah, but the only thing Elan knows about the elven lands is that theyre there. If Tarquin views them as a threat, a logical strategy would be to make his concerns reality.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, but the only thing Elan knows about the elven lands is that theyre there. If Tarquin views them as a threat, a logical strategy would be to make his concerns reality.

I agree with this, and I kind of always took Tarquin's statement to mean that someone larger than them might attack them were they to join, not the Elves specifically.

A thought just occured to me: What if Elan's plan involved manipulating the Elves into action? Maybe making them thinking that Tarquin was invading and causing them to go to war?

[Lassan]

^Exactly To re-iterate one of my original points of argument,

Tarquin
"the crux of the plan was to avoid making myself a target as I worked to forge the greatest empire the world has ever seen"

Tarquin is convinced, that to avoid being a target, essentially requires that NO-ONE not involved in his nefarious scheme, particularly persons in political power, have a rational reason to associate the power he wields with him personally. It doesn't really matter if it's the elves, gnomes, drow, humans, or halflings.

His greatest fear, is that someone will be able to discover the plan, see it for what it is, and prove it to be true to any number of his paranoid neighbors, ON, or OFF continent, don't forget,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html

"when he first appeared on the continent he conquered 11 nations in 8 months. It took a coalition of no less than 26 other countries to defeat him and drive dim out."

Hells, Just being able to prove his game ON continent, would be a big enough problem for him. I mean sure he and his pals own what? a third of the continent or so, atm? proving to the other 2/3
what's going on with some accurate intel, well would be super disastrous to his plans at this stage, even without outside involvement

again from Tarquin

"See without truly understanding the politics of the Western Continent, I'd inadvertently made myself into a common enemy for all the normally fractious warlords to rally against. It was a mistake I swore I would not repeat"

Again, Way to monologue out your greatest fears to someone who can do something about it Tarquin.

[Pattimus]

The only thing that convinces me that it's a good plan is that it would be something of an anti-climax. Which is the the only way to kill Tarquin without him enjoying it, due to his incredibly genre savvy nature and love of a good story.

To me, that's what makes the conclusion of the Tarquin storyline almost impossible to guess; it must run counter to traditional good story-telling to provide a satisfying ending where the villain isn't happy with his own death. Which itself would I suppose run counter to traditional good story-telling and oh my I think I've gone cross-eyed.

[Mike Havran]

Ian was confident the plan could work when he didn't know much about his new allies, so I suppose the plan shouldn't be too difficult to execute for a pair of elderly rogues. No large-scale operations, and no additional party summoning since Ian isn't that keen on trusting others. Also, Elan mentions only ''fighting his father'', not ''defeating the whole Legion''.

[Darth Paul]

It occurred to me to wonder, regarding the idea of setting the Elves against Tarquin and his allied Empires; How many Elven Kingdoms are there? The last we saw of any elves (in fact, aren't these the only elves we've ever seen?), they were launching a stealth liberation of Azure City, as Hinjo's allies. What continent were those elves based on? If it's the same elves, how much of their military effort is involved on the Southern Continent right now against the Goblinoid forces?

I guess the question is- would trying to get the Elves to open a front against Tarquin be diverting them from their liberation efforts in Azure City?

[DaggerPen]

It occurred to me to wonder, regarding the idea of setting the Elves against Tarquin and his allied Empires; How many Elven Kingdoms are there? The last we saw of any elves (in fact, aren't these the only elves we've ever seen?), they were launching a stealth liberation of Azure City, as Hinjo's allies. What continent were those elves based on? If it's the same elves, how much of their military effort is involved on the Southern Continent right now against the Goblinoid forces?

I guess the question is- would trying to get the Elves to open a front against Tarquin be diverting them from their liberation efforts in Azure City?

Yes. The elves have a unified government based on the Western Continent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?300492-Questions-about-Gourntonk-and-Ian-Starshine&p=15919361&viewfull=1#post15919361).

(Thanks, 137ben)

[ti'esar]

Of course, that whole line of discussion is assuming the elves are still committed to helping Azure City anyway. Their last effort consisted of eight whole guys, and they were all wiped out without much difficulty.

[b_jonas]

The only thing that convinces me that it's a good plan is that it would be something of an anti-climax. Which is the the only way to kill Tarquin without him enjoying it, due to his incredibly genre savvy nature and love of a good story.

On contrary, I think Elan will eventually have to give up his desires to defeat Tarquin without Tarquin enjoying it. He will realize that he will have to do exactly what Tarquin wants. Elan will have to do some serious brooding, become more wise and powerful, while Tarquin absorbs the rest of the continent. Elan will then come back to finish Tarquin later, thus immortalize Tarquin's name forever (as well as his own), and tell the best story EVER. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) Elan will have to accept that this is the best plan and make his happy ending from it.

Why? Because the Giant is committed to telling a good story, not an anti-climax, and he is pretty good at story telling, better than Elan. Elan will have to concede this.

Now I admit Tarquin might be wrong in some details. For example, Roy will probably still help Elan a lot, Tarquin won't be the main villain of the story, he will be defeated before Xykon and Redcloak are. The ending might also be closer in time than the ten years Tarquin has estimated.

[Ron Miel]

My prediction - Elan has written a comic ballad about Tarquin the Idiot, and his inept plan for conquest. Ian pays some minstrels to go around and sing the song in every tavern on the continent. Tarquin's anonymity vanishes. Everyone knows who he is, and nobody will stand for him pulling strings in secret. He doesn't get to be a great villain, but a laughingstock. He doesn't even get his sudden death after living like a king, instead he gets a long time to reflect on his failure.

[Snails]

This is unlikely, in my opinion.

While this is a pretty good plan, remember that Ian's reaction to Elan's plan was "deviant glee"; it was clearly something he hadn't considered and found impressive.

Ian's whole plan all along has been telling people about the Vector Legion plot; but "those who listen tend to die in the arena." Sure, telling other nations/the elves is more effective, but it's essentially the same spiel. So no, I think it's something else.

I agree with your reasoning, as making sense, in comic.

"Realistically" speaking, Elan does not have to actually convince the other nations, just make them all aware they must consider the possibility. As 5-10 years roll forward, the truth will become apparent to those who are aware what to look for, and then TT's special strategic advantage evaporates. Then the human/lizard lands unite to quash Tarquin like a bug.

But within the dramatic logic of the comic, doing exactly what Ian is doing on a larger scale does not fly. There has to be another special ingredient that Elan himself brings, even if blabbing might be an aspect of the plan.