[3.5] Incorporeal Undead Questions

[Thurbane]

A couple of questions I asked in the "Simple RAW", thought maybe they deserved their own thread to discuss in more detail.

Q 200

What's the lowest CR adjusted (LA is irrelevant in this case) template that will turn a Humanoid into an Incorporeal Undead?

Q 201

If I give a Wraith levels in Warmage:

A.) Are the Warmage level HD d6 or d12?
B.) Are they "associated levels" for the Wraith, to determine CR?

A 201 a

As I understand it you would have to take 5 hit dice of wraith using d12s, and take your first warmage level after this, using d6s.
Since there is no level adjustment, you would be wraith 5 / warmage X (12+4d12+Xd6) when you would have enough xp to reach level X+5 if you had been human.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#startingLevelofaMonsterPC)

Any additional thoughts, particularly in regards to Q200 and Q201B?

This is for an NPC build, so LA etc. doesn't matter.

Cheers - T

[OldTrees1]

A 200:
Ghost template class 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)
CR +1
"All of her Hit Dice (current and future) increase to d12s."

201B: WotC is terrible at CR.

[Urpriest]

The Warmage HD are d6s, yeah. While some undead make all future HD d12s, that's mostly just templates. Check out the Mummy Lord for an example.

The levels would definitely be unassociated, since Warmage is a casting class and Wraith doesn't grant Warmage casting.

[Thurbane]

A 200:
Ghost template class 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)
CR +1
"All of her Hit Dice (current and future) increase to d12s."

201B: WotC is terrible at CR.
Thanks for that. :smallsmile:

I forgot about those stupid racial/template classes that you can technically take 1 level in. For my purposes, though, this will not fly at my table. You would be required to take all 5 levels, whether or not it's RAW to take only 1.

Will bear it in mind if I can't find anything that's a better fit though.

The Warmage HD are d6s, yeah. While some undead make all future HD d12s, that's mostly just templates. Check out the Mummy Lord for an example.

The levels would definitely be unassociated, since Warmage is a casting class and Wraith doesn't grant Warmage casting.
Cool, that's how I thought it worked, thanks.

If a Wraith took 6 levels in Warmage, it's CR would be 8.5, rounded down to 8, yes?

[Urpriest]

Thanks for that. :smallsmile:

I forgot about those stupid racial/template classes that you can technically take 1 level in. For my purposes, though, this will not fly at my table. You would be required to take all 5 levels, whether or not it's RAW to take only 1.

Will bear it in mind if I can't find anything that's a better fit though.

Cool, that's how I thought it worked, thanks.

If a Wraith took 6 levels in Warmage, it's CR would be 8.5, rounded down to 8, yes?

Yes. Note that your players may be annoyed with you if you tell them you rounded down the CR to add another level. :smalltongue:

For templates and CR, Ghost and Umbral at +2 are probably the best you can do, though depending on your needs you could cobble a niche case together out of Phantom and a CR+0 undead like necropolitan (MMV).

[OldTrees1]

Thanks for that. :smallsmile:

I forgot about those stupid racial/template classes that you can technically take 1 level in. For my purposes, though, this will not fly at my table. You would be required to take all 5 levels, whether or not it's RAW to take only 1.

Will bear it in mind if I can't find anything that's a better fit though.

Plan B:
Incorporeal[SS: +2LA, +0CR] Necropolitian[LM: +0LA, +0CR]

Plan C(since I was in SS):
Spectral(SS) or Umbral(SS) templates +3CR

[ShurikVch]

Vivacious Creature (up to 3 HD), and Lesser Phantom (if CR of Base Creature ≤ 4), both give you (Incorporeal), and add only +1 CR

If you still need to be Undead, you can slap on Necropolitan, or Zombie/Skeleton/Revived Fossil