The TPK club

[Falka]

So, yesterday my group just TPKed. I couldn't do much - it was the warlock's fault. He entered a room and started shooting rays into the darkness because 'he thought there were some enemies'. They got ambushed by kobolds with fire bombs that also opened the cages for the drakes. The gnome ended up being devoured by a roper while the cleric and the paladin, having no spells, died facing the drakes.

I was laughing my ass off, admittedly. They had been so cautious so far, almost ending the chapter, and all died so miserably.

Please share your TPK experiences.

[Tessman the 2nd]

On the weekend I TPKed a group with a self made dungeon.
A player who wasn't paying attention decided to jump down 10ft into a water filled pit that was occupied by a Giant Constrictor Snake, the party proceeded to follow one by one into said pit and were bitten and constricted into unconsciousness. I gave death saving throws to to see who would be devoured and the others managed to gain consciousness and escape... so I guess it wasn't technically a TPK.

[koscum]

Being a lone survivor for 3 sessions in a row prevents me from posting stories here :(.

[rlc]

dragon in the starter set adventure. decided to give the pcs a save state just before the fight and they got a do over. fight went better the second time.

[Madfellow]

So, yesterday my group just TPKed. I couldn't do much - it was the warlock's fault. He entered a room and started shooting rays into the darkness because 'he thought there were some enemies'. They got ambushed by kobolds with fire bombs that also opened the cages for the drakes. The gnome ended up being devoured by a roper while the cleric and the paladin, having no spells, died facing the drakes.

Is that that one encounter in the HotDQ inside the dragon hatchery? Yeah, I think that encounter (and most of the book, from what I can tell) was specifically designed to cause a TPK. Guard Drakes are CR 2, and the book is throwing them at the party in pairs, with kobold reinforcements, even though the PCs are only level 3 by this point. The designers were being pretty sadistic when they made this one. When my party gets to the hatchery, I've already decided to replace all of the guard drakes with ambush drakes.

[MustacheFart]

So, yesterday my group just TPKed. I couldn't do much - it was the warlock's fault. He entered a room and started shooting rays into the darkness because 'he thought there were some enemies'. They got ambushed by kobolds with fire bombs that also opened the cages for the drakes. The gnome ended up being devoured by a roper while the cleric and the paladin, having no spells, died facing the drakes.

I was laughing my ass off, admittedly. They had been so cautious so far, almost ending the chapter, and all died so miserably.

Please share your TPK experiences.

So two questions:

1) The warlock couldn't actually see in darkness? He didn't take Devil's Sight? Bet he regrets that now.

2) The drakes are in cages?


How many firebomb kabolds are there? Sounds to me like the key to defeating that encounter is quickly dropping the kabolds, preferribly with stealth. Then either leave the drakes in the cage or kill them without freeing them.

My party hasn't tpked but we came close a couple times on the beginning kabold fights. My character (Half orc barbarian) also fought the half-dragon champion. I drew first blood but then the champion crit me twice to drop me. I made the mistake of activating the Half Orc's ability to get up at 1 (why would a half orc not do this was my thought). I continued to roll like crap on every attack for the next two rounds until the champ scored another crit on me (after using action surge) and also a regular hit, which should've killed me. The DM however didn't understand the death rules, and everyone else (myself included) was uncertain enough on them to not question the DM, so my character lived. Basically, I was at 1 out of 16 HP when I got hit for 24.

I plan to play my character as destined to kill dragons. Where others would've died I miraculously did not.

[hawklost]

So two questions:

1) The warlock couldn't actually see in darkness? He didn't take Devil's Sight? Bet he regrets that now.

2) The drakes are in cages?


How many firebomb kabolds are there? Sounds to me like the key to defeating that encounter is quickly dropping the kabolds, preferribly with stealth. Then either leave the drakes in the cage or kill them without freeing them.

My party hasn't tpked but we came close a couple times on the beginning kabold fights. My character (Half orc barbarian) also fought the half-dragon champion. I drew first blood but then the champion crit me twice to drop me. I made the mistake of activating the Half Orc's ability to get up at 1 (why would a half orc not do this was my thought). I continued to roll like crap on every attack for the next two rounds until the champ scored another crit on me (after using action surge) and also a regular hit, which should've killed me. The DM however didn't understand the death rules, and everyone else (myself included) was uncertain enough on them to not question the DM, so my character lived. Basically, I was at 1 out of 16 HP when I got hit for 24.

I plan to play my character as destined to kill dragons. Where others would've died I miraculously did not.

Note that the Half-Dragon could choose to knock you out instead of kill you if he wanted to (therefore superceeding the immediate death rules). Since he was in melee he can make that choice.

[MustacheFart]

Note that the Half-Dragon could choose to knock you out instead of kill you if he wanted to (therefore superceeding the immediate death rules). Since he was in melee he can make that choice.

Didn't realize that. Doesn't it also say though that he performs a Coupe De Grace on the character?

Doesn't matter. Even Conan had to come back from death before he could toss James Earl Jones' head down the stairs.

[Surrealistik]

Had a close call in HotDQ last night with a four man 1st level party in the very first section; I heard that the series of encounters at the beginning are pretty terminal so I was prepared for the worst and went human Fighter with Sharpshooter and a heavy crossbow (plan to multiclass later).

Our DM basically ended up rolling more or less the hardest combats possible with the most monsters possible (according to him). Paladin and Sorcerer were KIA by overwhelming numbers, Barbarian was reduced to literally 1 hp and was forced to hit and run with a sling I'd thrown him. Meanwhile I'd taken to the forest and rooftops, sniping things at super long ranges, and it was pretty much the only thing that saw us through to the keep, especially when we got an encounter with drakes at the gate; if I went melee, this would have _easily_ been a straight up TPK, no question. A lot of threats were nullified by taking them out before they managed to close to melee, or within the effective range of their weapons (like slings for the kobolds). Not quite a TPK, but very close.

That said, lesson definitely learned: low levels are deadly, and so is HotDQ.


Experienced an actual TPK in Dead in Thay which was kind of lame, and basically predicated on RNG; near the end there's a small chamber of poison you port into that stuns on a failed save (which you have no warning of) which contains a red wizard who has several fireballs at his disposal, along with some apprentices and a helmed horror.

Our understaffed 3 man party (two of our players were absent) port in, me and another PC got stunned immediately. We see the caster and know we've got to take him out. So the lone guy with actions attempts to hit him; fails. Wizard casts a fireball at us before he screws off to get 3/4ths cover behind a pillar. Because of the way stunning works, me and the other stunned PC autofail. The guy that wasn't stunned fails anyways; the way the room is set up there's no way to scatter and disperse while still attacking (you literally have to double move to the south where all the enemies are and if 2+ PCs do it, the party is still clustered enough for a multihit), and if you run too far, you'll get immediately attacked by the helmed horror. Apprentices follow up with focus fired magic missiles; one of our guys is down. Our turn, we scatter as much as possible, unload everything on the wizard in a desperate attempt to kill the bastard as the helmed horror advances, and he just goes full on Neo and matrixes literally everything. Next turn is a fireball and we all fail its save yet again. Cue mop up from the helmed horror and magic missile spamming apprentices; done son. Defeat has never tasted so bitter.

[Falka]

So two questions:

1) The warlock couldn't actually see in darkness? He didn't take Devil's Sight? Bet he regrets that now.

2) The drakes are in cages?


How many firebomb kabolds are there? Sounds to me like the key to defeating that encounter is quickly dropping the kabolds, preferribly with stealth. Then either leave the drakes in the cage or kill them without freeing them.

My party hasn't tpked but we came close a couple times on the beginning kabold fights. My character (Half orc barbarian) also fought the half-dragon champion. I drew first blood but then the champion crit me twice to drop me. I made the mistake of activating the Half Orc's ability to get up at 1 (why would a half orc not do this was my thought). I continued to roll like crap on every attack for the next two rounds until the champ scored another crit on me (after using action surge) and also a regular hit, which should've killed me. The DM however didn't understand the death rules, and everyone else (myself included) was uncertain enough on them to not question the DM, so my character lived. Basically, I was at 1 out of 16 HP when I got hit for 24.

I plan to play my character as destined to kill dragons. Where others would've died I miraculously did not.

They were actually lurking in the egg pit, but I said 'cages' so people wouldn't get spoiled.

The thing is, the Warlock used his pseudodragon to scout. I allowed him to feel the presence of the drakes (not the roper because he didn't travel far deep into the chamber). He couldn't actually see them, but he knew there were two drakes as the pseudodragon noticed them.

He just asked me: "I spend the next 15 minutes trying to hit the drakes". Moment after, the kobolds took advantage of the fact that the little gnome went to check the pit near the ledge, in which moment the kobolds just dumped a couple of bombs on her face and she fell unconscious.

One of the kobolds opened the door in stealth while the party was distracted, both the cleric and paladin were restrained due to a glue bomb. He opened the door, the drakes that were startled by the warlock's constant shooting went on a rampage and attacked the 3 man group (since the gnome was unconscious). They eventually fell prey from the drakes; the warlock managed to kill all the kobolds in the meantime. As soon as he finished, he ran off back to the fungi forest and almost died because he startled the stirges lurking in the bat cave.

The drakes fell in a pit as they ran through the fungi forest (as I RPed that area, it's supposed to have bridges and a pit that makes you trip into the violet fungi).

By that time, Mondath (who they didn't face yet in the dungeon), went off to check what was happening and found the warlock. Needless to say, he was almost dead due to the stirges (10 that almost killed him, he managed to kill all thanks to Armor of Agathys). She decided to kill him at the spot.

The gnome woke up in the dragon hatchery and decided to explore the dark area of the chamber. Needless to say, she found the roper. And died.

I don't think the encounter was especially deadly. It was just horribly played by the group, who had until then, faced most encounters smartly and just went crazy because they were almost "finishing the dungeon".

[MustacheFart]

They were actually lurking in the egg pit, but I said 'cages' so people wouldn't get spoiled.

The thing is, the Warlock used his pseudodragon to scout. I allowed him to feel the presence of the drakes (not the roper because he didn't travel far deep into the chamber). He couldn't actually see them, but he knew there were two drakes as the pseudodragon noticed them.

He just asked me: "I spend the next 15 minutes trying to hit the drakes". Moment after, the kobolds took advantage of the fact that the little gnome went to check the pit near the ledge, in which moment the kobolds just dumped a couple of bombs on her face and she fell unconscious.

One of the kobolds opened the door in stealth while the party was distracted, both the cleric and paladin were restrained due to a glue bomb. He opened the door, the drakes that were startled by the warlock's constant shooting went on a rampage and attacked the 3 man group (since the gnome was unconscious). They eventually fell prey from the drakes; the warlock managed to kill all the kobolds in the meantime. As soon as he finished, he ran off back to the fungi forest and almost died because he startled the stirges lurking in the bat cave.

The drakes fell in a pit as they ran through the fungi forest (as I RPed that area, it's supposed to have bridges and a pit that makes you trip into the violet fungi).

By that time, Mondath (who they didn't face yet in the dungeon), went off to check what was happening and found the warlock. Needless to say, he was almost dead due to the stirges (10 that almost killed him, he managed to kill all thanks to Armor of Agathys). She decided to kill him at the spot.

The gnome woke up in the dragon hatchery and decided to explore the dark area of the chamber. Needless to say, she found the roper. And died.

I don't think the encounter was especially deadly. It was just horribly played by the group, who had until then, faced most encounters smartly and just went crazy because they were almost "finishing the dungeon".

No offense but it also sounds like you were pretty harsh on your party.

Here's what I see:


1) The kabolds ambushed the gnome by the pit. If they were hiding close by did she not get any check to see them before they pounced?
2) You had a kabold open a door stealthily? I don't think I have ever experienced an npc or creature or otherwise DM enemy ever open a door stealthily. That's an action typically reserved for the party.
3) You had Mondath kill the warlock outright. Yes, that may be justified but you as the DM chose that action.


My final take is that they took unwise actions that resulted in character deaths but your actions made it a TPK. Just my take and in no way do I mean any offense.

[Falka]

NPCs aren't dumb. They interact with the world as much as PCs do. Unless you expect them to just stand around and letting themselves killed... The kobolds would get wiped easily if they didn't free the drakes.

And yeah, obviously she got a check (and failed it).

Mondath was bound to show up there Actually if you have played that Chapter, her room's quite close to the exit and the PCs had faced most of the guards back there. They caused an early commotion. She was waiting for them (not that they should know that).

And curiously people say that I'm very lenient as a DM. :smallbiggrin:

[MustacheFart]

NPCs aren't dumb. They interact with the world as much as PCs do. Unless you expect them to just stand around and letting themselves killed... The kobolds would get wiped easily if they didn't free the drakes.

And yeah, obviously she got a check (and failed it).

Mondath was bound to show up there Actually if you have played that Chapter, her room's quite close to the exit and the PCs had faced most of the guards back there. They caused an early commotion. She was waiting for them (not that they should know that).

And curiously people say that I'm very lenient as a DM. :smallbiggrin:

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I am simply saying:

While npcs do interact with the world and should be as smart as players I don't think it's standard practice. I've gamed for quite some time and GMs never get too complicated with an npc's actions outside maybe a bbeg but certainly not mooks. I think most would consider kabolds at least in this context as mooks. The whole stealthy door opening thing just seemed a bit much to me. Some of the other tactics taken by them just seem to be a bit out of bounds for a kabold in my opinion. They're not mindflayers or other really intelligent monsters.

Also Mondath didn't have to kill him. That npc very much could've taken them hostage. Someone for the new characters to free?

Also one question: was the gnome who woke up purposefully going deeper into the complex/dungeon after waking up or was he/she trying to escape? If they were trying to escape it could've been as simple as letting them escape, rally some more people (new characterss) and going back for round two while also freeing the warlock. This is all hyperbole really.

Basically, it was a TPK but one due to a couple unwise decisions in an encounter being run...not that leniently. Those mistakes made wouldn't necessarily garner a TPK on mechanics/mathematics alone. DM involvement played a role.

[Rainman3769]

No TPKs in my new campaign yet, but there was almost one within the first 10 minutes of our very first session, lol

My players started the campaign as newly conscripted members of a city militia that was under siege from a foreign power. The besieged city was completely surrounded on all sides by an army of about 10k to 15k, and I made it VERY clear that no matter where they looked out over the city walls, they saw nothing but enemy siege camps and trench lines. I also made it clear to them that there was several hundred meters of flat, open land between the enemy and the city walls. They decided the city was already boned, and their course of action was going to be leaving and saving their own skins.


By tying a rope to a random parapet and climbing out over the wall.


Let me make this clear. They were very seriously considering just picking a random spot on the wall, tying a rope off, and climbing down.


With the city surrounded.


With literally thousands of eyes watching the wall.


Lol, at the time I didn't know what to do. I saw them being turned into pin cushions with arrows and bolts the only realistic result of their "idea" Now I know I just could have had them be captured or something. But at the time, it looked like a TPK was going to be how the campaign started. Fortunatly after a lenghty debate they decided to look for a better way.

[MustacheFart]

No TPKs in my new campaign yet, but there was almost one within the first 10 minutes of our very first session, lol

My players started the campaign as newly conscripted members of a city militia that was under siege from a foreign power. The besieged city was completely surrounded on all sides by an army of about 10k to 15k, and I made it VERY clear that no matter where they looked out over the city walls, they saw nothing but enemy siege camps and trench lines. I also made it clear to them that there was several hundred meters of flat, open land between the enemy and the city walls. They decided the city was already boned, and their course of action was going to be leaving and saving their own skins.


By tying a rope to a random parapet and climbing out over the wall.


Let me make this clear. They were very seriously considering just picking a random spot on the wall, tying a rope off, and climbing down.


With the city surrounded.


With literally thousands of eyes watching the wall.


Lol, at the time I didn't know what to do. I saw them being turned into pin cushions with arrows and bolts the only realistic result of their "idea" Now I know I just could have had them be captured or something. But at the time, it looked like a TPK was going to be how the campaign started. Fortunatly after a lenghty debate they decided to look for a better way.

Hah, I'm surprised they could even attempt it. If the whole city was under attack there would be city militia/guards up along all of the walls.

[hawklost]

No TPKs in my new campaign yet, but there was almost one within the first 10 minutes of our very first session, lol

My players started the campaign as newly conscripted members of a city militia that was under siege from a foreign power. The besieged city was completely surrounded on all sides by an army of about 10k to 15k, and I made it VERY clear that no matter where they looked out over the city walls, they saw nothing but enemy siege camps and trench lines. I also made it clear to them that there was several hundred meters of flat, open land between the enemy and the city walls. They decided the city was already boned, and their course of action was going to be leaving and saving their own skins.


By tying a rope to a random parapet and climbing out over the wall.


Let me make this clear. They were very seriously considering just picking a random spot on the wall, tying a rope off, and climbing down.


With the city surrounded.


With literally thousands of eyes watching the wall.


Lol, at the time I didn't know what to do. I saw them being turned into pin cushions with arrows and bolts the only realistic result of their "idea" Now I know I just could have had them be captured or something. But at the time, it looked like a TPK was going to be how the campaign started. Fortunatly after a lenghty debate they decided to look for a better way.

Honestly, I am surprised that the City guard didn't arrest them as Spies. Since they could have been going to tell the surrounding enemies of a secret passage or the number of guards or something like that.

[pwykersotz]

I'm a proud DM member of this club! A few weeks ago, I ran 2 friends through a self-made encounter. A kid had been kidnapped and they had to get him back. Skip to the end of the scattered orcs, kobolds, traps, and a flying sword. Turns out (for various story reasons) the kid was imprisoned in the same room as a Spectator. Mini-Beholder, quite mean. The group was in fairly good health, and I rolled dice to determined who got hit with what eye-beams.

They were level 2 at this point, and they succeeded on every save, partially because they rolled well and partially because they had Protection from Evil and Good. Unfortunately, I split their attention too well. The Beholder got out of melee range and floated to the ceiling when it hit half HP. A couple bad attack rolls later, and they decided to grab the kid and run. Alas, the kid was scared of them and didn't immediately run toward them. They couldn't get him out quite in time. Meanwhile the Spectator is blasting away and takes down the Warlock.

The remaining party member tries one last hurrah, but fails to hit and dies to the next barrage. Party wiped. The Spectator won with 6hp left.

The worst parts? The Barbarian forgot she had javelins to throw, the Dragonborn forgot about her breath weapon, and if the two hadn't split their focus the odds of success were massively in their favor. Ah well, they had fun anyway. :smallsmile:

[MustacheFart]

I'm a proud DM member of this club! A few weeks ago, I ran 2 friends through a self-made encounter. A kid had been kidnapped and they had to get him back. Skip to the end of the scattered orcs, kobolds, traps, and a flying sword. Turns out (for various story reasons) the kid was imprisoned in the same room as a Spectator. Mini-Beholder, quite mean. The group was in fairly good health, and I rolled dice to determined who got hit with what eye-beams.

They were level 2 at this point, and they succeeded on every save, partially because they rolled well and partially because they had Protection from Evil and Good. Unfortunately, I split their attention too well. The Beholder got out of melee range and floated to the ceiling when it hit half HP. A couple bad attack rolls later, and they decided to grab the kid and run. Alas, the kid was scared of them and didn't immediately run toward them. They couldn't get him out quite in time. Meanwhile the Spectator is blasting away and takes down the Warlock.

The remaining party member tries one last hurrah, but fails to hit and dies to the next barrage. Party wiped. The Spectator won with 6hp left.

The worst parts? The Barbarian forgot she had javelins to throw, the Dragonborn forgot about her breath weapon, and if the two hadn't split their focus the odds of success were massively in their favor. Ah well, they had fun anyway. :smallsmile:

And the poor little kid is now lost forever. :smallfrown::smallwink:

[Lokiare]

Most of these TPKs are caused by the RNG of the dice being more important than the players choices and the fact that it only takes a couple solid hits from an enemy of the parties level to take down a character. One of the main reasons I choose not to support 5e.

[MustacheFart]

Most of these TPKs are caused by the RNG of the dice being more important than the players choices and the fact that it only takes a couple solid hits from an enemy of the parties level to take down a character. One of the main reasons I choose not to support 5e.

How is that a reason to not support 5e? Do you also not support 3e? What about other editions of DnD?

As long as I can remember, there have always been cases where it came down to the die roll. This is the very reason for Save Vs Die or Save Vs Suck spells. Are you okay when the die look unfavorably to the npcs/monsters but not when that focus is turned on the players?

The primary reason this didn't happen in 3e as much at low levels is purely because of the amount of Splat books and other source material out there that allowed people to show up with level 1 characters that were more like level 3-4 characters.

Hating the RNG of the dice just seems to be a silly reason to not support an edition and if it is, then it's one reason to not support any game involving dice.

[Surrealistik]

Most of these TPKs are caused by the RNG of the dice being more important than the players choices and the fact that it only takes a couple solid hits from an enemy of the parties level to take down a character. One of the main reasons I choose not to support 5e.

To be fair, in my case my party both got super unlucky, and the encounter it died on was poorly designed (one of a minority few); most of the Dead in Thay experience was very enjoyable however; basically DnD meets Metal Gear Solid.

[Lokiare]

How is that a reason to not support 5e? Do you also not support 3e? What about other editions of DnD?

As long as I can remember, there have always been cases where it came down to the die roll. This is the very reason for Save Vs Die or Save Vs Suck spells. Are you okay when the die look unfavorably to the npcs/monsters but not when that focus is turned on the players?

The primary reason this didn't happen in 3e as much at low levels is purely because of the amount of Splat books and other source material out there that allowed people to show up with level 1 characters that were more like level 3-4 characters.

Hating the RNG of the dice just seems to be a silly reason to not support an edition and if it is, then it's one reason to not support any game involving dice.

I don't support 3E or other editions. My edition of choice is 4E where the players choices are more important than the RNG of the die roll.

I am equally annoyed when the die roll is bad for the monsters, this is because I'm the DM.

This happened in 3E almost as much as it does in 5E. Its because the RNG of the dice determines the outcome. In a game like 4E it would take 3-4 bad die rolls in a row to override a players strategy. So it was more important for the player to choose carefully what they did. In 5E it doesn't matter what you do. A single die roll can cause you to waste resources and a few bad die rolls can cause a TPK.

I don't support 5E because the RNG of the dice is more important than the decisions of the players. In 4E the bonuses of the players outpaced the RNG of the dice so that their tactics were reliable, but not 100% reliable. Whereas in 5E they are not factored into success at all. Its all on the dice.

The only reason I'm still here is to see if the tactical modules in the DMG will fix the problems and 'magically' balance the game out.

In 4E it takes around 4 solid hits on average to take out a character (6 if the character is a defender). So the players build their strategies around taking just a few hits or around healing while trying to hit the enemies as many times as possible.

In my previous post I was just explaining the 'why' of the TPKs listed in this thread to complement the 'how' from everyone's posts.

[Surrealistik]

I think you definitely have a point with respect to very low level encounters where you basically have to cheese your way through challenging fights if you don't want to get shrekt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuu9y7yMrc&feature=player_detailpage#t=8) by the RNG, but as your hp pools increase and you have more tools at your disposal, its impact definitely lessens, especially since by and large Save and Sucks/Dies are absent from the preponderance of encounters.

I will agree though that in balance good tactics are more meaningful in 4e and generally allow you to mitigate more RNG on average vs 5e, which places more emphasis on top down strategy; it's basically the mid point between 3.5 and 4e as more or less expected.

[Lokiare]

I think you definitely have a point with respect to very low level encounters where you basically have to cheese your way through challenging fights if you don't want to get shrekt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuu9y7yMrc&feature=player_detailpage#t=8) by the RNG, but as your hp pools increase and you have more tools at your disposal, its impact definitely lessens, especially since by and large Save and Sucks/Dies are absent from the preponderance of encounters.

I will agree though that in balance good tactics are more meaningful in 4e and generally allow you to mitigate more RNG on average vs 5e, which places more emphasis on top down strategy; it's basically the mid point between 3.5 and 4e as more or less expected.

Yes, and in my view 4E didn't go far enough.

If we could just get a game that was balanced like 4E but played like 3E, then I would have it made.

Edit: the major problem with 5E is that most games will take place between levels 1 and 10. Which means by the time player tactics start mattering the game will be over. Not to mention they kind of threw balance out the window past level 10 or so.

[DrBurr]

Twice in the same night actually

I've been running LMOP for my group and we were down a player when they arrived at Cragmaw Castle. An hour into the game they walked right in the front door, didn't even try to sneak and alerted the goblins of their presence, cue the Hobgoblins showing up and they were slaughtered.

We talked about making new characters but ultimately decided to just run it again so I gave them a save state. This time they snuck in through the side and completed the dungeon save a few baddies. They were screwing around in the Chapel when the Cleric fell into the pitfall and the Hobgoblins came to investigate, some bad rolls later and they were all dead.

It was late but all of them stabilized (the last guy rolled just to see if he would) so I ruled the Hobgoblins captured them and were planning to eat them. The group woke up gearless with 1 HP a piece and failed to sneak off but won after they were able to recover their weapons.

[Surrealistik]

Yes, and in my view 4E didn't go far enough.

If we could just get a game that was balanced like 4E but played like 3E, then I would have it made.

Edit: the major problem with 5E is that most games will take place between levels 1 and 10. Which means by the time player tactics start mattering the game will be over. Not to mention they kind of threw balance out the window past level 10 or so.

To be fair, I'd say that if your character is properly built, the impact of RNG really starts to diminish at around level 3-5.

[Falka]

Agreed, RNG feels out of whack only during levels 1-2. After that, encounters feel much easier to manage.

[Sir_Leorik]

During the final chapter of "Dead in Thay", we had a near TPK, avoided only because one player fled. My Bard's soul was devoured by a Demilich, while the other two members of the party were killed by the Demilich's undead followers. :smallfrown:

[Daishain]

While npcs do interact with the world and should be as smart as players I don't think it's standard practice. I've gamed for quite some time and GMs never get too complicated with an npc's actions outside maybe a bbeg but certainly not mooks. I think most would consider kabolds at least in this context as mooks. The whole stealthy door opening thing just seemed a bit much to me. Some of the other tactics taken by them just seem to be a bit out of bounds for a kabold in my opinion. They're not mindflayers or other really intelligent monsters.

Going to have to strongly disagree with you on this point. Kobolds are cunning trappers and ambushers by both design and fluff. The kind of scenario you are objecting to is their standard approach to fights. You don't have to go full on Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) with them, but always treating them like your standard run in and get mown down mooks is a hell of a waste, not to mention an insult to your players.

P.S. If a DM is treating all NPCs like they were Int 2 animals, then he is doing a piss poor job of being a DM. Read some freaking Sun Tzu already and learn to present a challenge to the party, without just stacking 20 templates onto their foes.

[MustacheFart]

The kind of scenario you are objecting to is their standard approach to fights.

NO, now let me strongly disagree with you. The scenario I was objecting to was the kind that I've never seen employed by a DM. It may be the standard "written" approach but it's not the standard "Implemented" approach--at least not from my experience. Typically, Kabolds have been used as just mooks or wimpy monsters to fight, not much of a step up above the 1/4th CR Orc.

Just because DMs I've played under did not utilize kabolds to their entire potential doesn't mean they only threw brain damaged enemies at us. In fact, I've had to face many clever bad guys but typically it's been by way of roleplaying and less in actual combat. That's why I said what I said.

Please watch you tone as it seems like you're treading very close to insulting every DM I've played under.

The thing to consider is that after a certain level, in editions such as 3.5, "clever" tactics in combat by bad guys become less and less useful. The party is typically a team of ridiculous super-powered monsters themselves so what's the point of special smart tactics? Between templates, multiclassing, feats, etc... smart tactics begin to do very little as the party will have an answer for everything so I think a lot of DMs don't bother with them after a point. It's why hack n' slashes are famous and what they're about...hacking n' slashing...less about solving or defeating tactics.

This module thus far appears to be pretty much a hack n' slash and given the difficulty of the module in itself, I am of the opinion that taking such actions on a kabold is harsh. Sure, it may be justified and natural for the monster to take such actions, which I never disagreed with btw, but that doesn't mean it isn't harsh either. I'm just saying that I don't think there needs to be much effort put into making the encounter any harder.

[Daishain]

NO, now let me strongly disagree with you. The scenario I was objecting to was the kind that I've never seen employed by a DM. It may be the standard "written" approach but it's not the standard "Implemented" approach--at least not from my experience. Typically, Kabolds have been used as just mooks or wimpy monsters to fight, not much of a step up above the 1/4th CR Orc.Congratulations, but what is the norm for your experience is not going to be the norm for everyone, nor should it be. Don't rag on the guy who actually uses the source material simply because the people you are familiar with failed to do so.

Now, the encounter may arguably not have been appropriately balanced, and/or the players may not have been aware what they might have been getting into. But that would be a separate issue, and it is not clear in any case.

Just because DMs I've played under did not utilize kabolds to their entire potential doesn't mean they only threw brain damaged enemies at us. In fact, I've had to face many clever bad guys but typically it's been by way of roleplaying and less in actual combat. That's why I said what I said.

Please watch you tone as it seems like you're treading very close to insulting every DM I've played under.If they run the vast majority of combat encounters as you seem to be describing, just throwing one group at another, then I am not going to apologize for the implication, nor would I feel that I have anything to apologize for. It is unimaginative, unrealistic, and wasteful in my opinion. They may or may not be aware, they may or may not care. it matters little in the long run.


The thing to consider is that after a certain level, in editions such as 3.5, "clever" tactics in combat by bad guys become less and less useful. The party is typically a team of ridiculous super-powered monsters themselves so what's the point of special smart tactics? Between templates, multiclassing, feats, etc... smart tactics begin to do very little as the party will have an answer for everything so I think a lot of DMs don't bother with them after a point. It's why hack n' slashes are famous and what they're about...hacking n' slashing...less about solving or defeating tactics.

This module thus far appears to be pretty much a hack n' slash and given the difficulty of the module in itself, I am of the opinion that taking such actions on a kabold is harsh. Sure, it may be justified and natural for the monster to take such actions, which I never disagreed with btw, but that doesn't mean it isn't harsh either. I'm just saying that I don't think there needs to be much effort put into making the encounter any harder.
You answered your first paragraph with your second, even just a little bit of coordination and playing to strengths can keep a low level encounter as an effective and credible threat long past normal. Did you read that article I linked before? A bunch of well prepared kobolds used tactics, played to their strengths, and as a result sent a level 12ish party (who had access to a full spellcaster) running with their tail between their legs, repeatedly.

True, a level 20 god-wizard is probably not going to give a damn what the kobolds are doing. But I can think of a few completely legitimate if underhanded strategies within their capabilities that have a small but significant chance of success against such a wizard that failed to take them seriously.

As you boost the CR, the intelligent enemies tend to have more options and more resources to bring to bear. Meaning fewer shenanigans to make them a credible threat to that L20 party, and less reliance on whether or not the party is actually ready for them. In other words, a good bit of strategy from your enemies might mean that while the half fiendish tarrasque ended up being a boring fight, a sufficiently revamped CR15 encounter with illithids could very well threaten a TPK.

P.S. I have played exactly one D&D campaign that could truly be called a hacknslash. I will never willingly do so again. Strip away D&D's status as an imaginative role-playing game, and it becomes in my opinion nothing more than a slow paced video game with no graphics, in other words a worse version of something I can play anywhere and on my own time. You might enjoy such, but don't assume that others do.

[MustacheFart]

Congratulations, but what is the norm for your experience is not going to be the norm for everyone, nor should it be. Don't rag on the guy who actually uses the source material simply because the people you are familiar with failed to do so.

It is funny how you define ragging. By your standards I guess I did rag on him. Although I openly stated multiple times that I meant no offense and was merely pointing out that his party's TPK was not totally on them, you seemed to have missed that. Your lack of reading comprehension is not my problem though it may be that you focus too much on winning at internetz and less on understanding what you've read.


Now, the encounter may arguably not have been appropriately balanced, and/or the players may not have been aware what they might have been getting into. But that would be a separate issue, and it is not clear in any case.

A separate issue? That is entirely what I was commenting on. The majority of my questions to the OP were to get more information on the encounter so that it would be clear to those of us not involved. Nice of you to write off what I was actually attempting to discuss. Thank you for confirming my point with your second paragraph. You seem to want to pick at bits and pieces of what I've said twisting the context in a lame attempt to prove your point. I would once again acknowledge your apparent failure at reading comprehension. I had previously questioned the OP in a bit more detail regarding the fights to ascertain if the encounter was entirely sprung on them or whether they had a chance to "become aware of what they're getting into" as you put it. After the OP provided some additional info I asked a bit more but received no answer.

The reason I initially even posted was because he seemed to be putting blame for the TPK entirely on his party but to an outside reader such as myself that didn't seem to be completely fair.

However, you've done a great job of picking out one thing I said to make this an argument about proper DMing of creatures which it never was. My intent behind my comments was to express that the result of his party's TPK ultimately came down to the DM based on the info he presented. It could've gone one of two ways with either not requiring a single bit of DM fiat. Remember, a single party member surviving means there was no TPK. Just as he chose to kill off a player with Meldath, he equally could've chosen to capture that player. To do so would not have required any bit of going outside the nature of the creature/npc/whatever.


If they run the vast majority of combat encounters as you seem to be describing, just throwing one group at another, then I am not going to apologize for the implication, nor would I feel that I have anything to apologize for. It is unimaginative, unrealistic, and wasteful in my opinion. They may or may not be aware, they may or may not care. it matters little in the long run.

I wouldn't expect you to apologize as you evidently deal in hyperbole from a self-righteous standpoint. You've taken what I've said, meant for a specific context, and extended it to all of DMing. It's ridiculous. I don't think I really need to say more than that. You're applying some generalization based off an exaggeration you've derived from my posts.

Let me just say there is a huge difference between DMing a combat in a very straightforward, hack n' slash manner and engaging the party in roleplaying. I've played several sessions in many games over the years where we didn't even have a single actual "encounter". It progressed off roleplaying (non-combat) and continued to grow as such.

Ultimately, I get the purpose and intent behind your opinion. It's one I can respect. However, to imply insult to DMs entirely based off how they treat combats is shortsighted and ignorant. That's an opinion I cannot respect. Some DMs favor roleplaying more than actual combats and should be respected just the same.


Did you read that article I linked before?

Nope and I don't plan to. It's beside the point. I was never arguing on the merit of running a challenging encounter at all levels. I was simply stating two things: 1) His TPK wasn't entirely due to the fault of his party and 2) My experience has shown that the "tactics" of enemies in encounters is overestimated in this thread.

You said what I've experienced as the norm is not the norm for everyone. Fair enough but that's a bit hypocritical as you're basically attempting to dictate what's the "norm". That argument can be turned around at you just as easy. I was simply presenting my experience. Obviously, others may have different experience.

In fact, I only responded with my experience on "tactless" encounters after being presented with the OP's experience of how enemies should respond in encounters. What, so I can't present my experience when presented with someone elses? How open-minded of you.


True, a level 20 god-wizard is probably not going to give a damn what the kobolds are doing. But I can think of a few completely legitimate if underhanded strategies within their capabilities that have a small but significant chance of success against such a wizard that failed to take them seriously.

More hyperbole. I mean come on. If you've got a level 20 god-wizard rolling around you're not going to waste time with frakking kabolds. While the idea of a group of Kabolds taking down a level 20 wizard IS pure awesome (the level 20 God Wizard gets no favor with me), it's just not realistic and you know it.


As you boost the CR, the intelligent enemies tend to have more options and more resources to bring to bear. Meaning fewer shenanigans to make them a credible threat to that L20 party, and less reliance on whether or not the party is actually ready for them. In other words, a good bit of strategy from your enemies might mean that while the half fiendish tarrasque ended up being a boring fight, a sufficiently revamped CR15 encounter with illithids could very well threaten a TPK.

Am I supposed to disagree with this? I'm confused. Though I would state that some of the actions taken by the Kobolds mentioned by the OP seemed a bit errant of "shenanigans" to me. That is purely my opinion of course.


P.S. I have played exactly one D&D campaign that could truly be called a hacknslash. I will never willingly do so again. Strip away D&D's status as an imaginative role-playing game, and it becomes in my opinion nothing more than a slow paced video game with no graphics, in other words a worse version of something I can play anywhere and on my own time.

Good for you. I am glad that you've identified what you want out of a game. Many are not quite able to do that. I agree that D&D is an imaginative role-playing game; however, that "role-playing" doesn't have to come from combats. You could have hack n' slash combats but otherwise an absolutely terrific level of roleplaying outside of combat. Is that suddenly a terrible game? You're posts seem to indicate a fixation on combats when regarding roleplaying. Perhaps you're the one who's more focused on combats. Did you decide you hate hack n' slash because you suck at them?


You might enjoy such, but don't assume that others do.

Where did I say this? OH! Because I stated my past experiences you ASSUMED that I must enjoy hack n' slashes. How astute of you. Yeah, I couldn't possibly enjoy DnD for entirely different reasons with the aforementioned experiences. /endsarcasm

It all boils down to the fact that your posts are rampant with assumptions and hypocracy. You complain at the style of DMing expressed through my past experiences while criticizing me for critiquing the OP's style of DMing. Classic.

[Freelance GM]

Lost Mine of Phandelver. 3 Players.

The adventure starts with a goblin ambush.

Surprise Round: Goblins hit and damage the Fighter and the Rogue.
Goblins win initiative.
Round 1: Goblins knock out Fighter and Rogue. Wizard is hit, but not killed.
Wizard hides in wagon, holds action to Ray of Frost the first goblin that strays into view.

Round 2: Goblins shove one of their own into the clearing, to check the bodies. Wizard pegs him with Ray of Frost. Other Goblins shoot exposed wizard with arrows.

So, yeah, TPK less than 20 minutes into the adventure. I was laughing hysterically. They were groaning.

Much to their annoyance, I started to read from the Developments section... "In the unlikely event that the goblins defeat the adventurers..."

And so the goblins made off with all of the PC's weapons, ammunition, coins, and food. The humiliated PCs mutually agreed to never speak of that encounter again, armed themselves with crowbars the Rogue stole and hid earlier, then continued the adventure.

[pwykersotz]

Lost Mine of Phandelver. 3 Players.

The adventure starts with a goblin ambush.

Surprise Round: Goblins hit and damage the Fighter and the Rogue.
Goblins win initiative.
Round 1: Goblins knock out Fighter and Rogue. Wizard is hit, but not killed.
Wizard hides in wagon, holds action to Ray of Frost the first goblin that strays into view.

Round 2: Goblins shove one of their own into the clearing, to check the bodies. Wizard pegs him with Ray of Frost. Other Goblins shoot exposed wizard with arrows.

So, yeah, TPK less than 20 minutes into the adventure. I was laughing hysterically. They were groaning.

Much to their annoyance, I started to read from the Developments section... "In the unlikely event that the goblins defeat the adventurers..."

And so the goblins made off with all of the PC's weapons, ammunition, coins, and food. The humiliated PCs mutually agreed to never speak of that encounter again, armed themselves with crowbars the Rogue stole and hid earlier, then continued the adventure.

Your sig is relevant. :smalltongue:

[Falka]

Lost Mine of Phandelver. 3 Players.

The adventure starts with a goblin ambush.

Surprise Round: Goblins hit and damage the Fighter and the Rogue.
Goblins win initiative.
Round 1: Goblins knock out Fighter and Rogue. Wizard is hit, but not killed.
Wizard hides in wagon, holds action to Ray of Frost the first goblin that strays into view.

Round 2: Goblins shove one of their own into the clearing, to check the bodies. Wizard pegs him with Ray of Frost. Other Goblins shoot exposed wizard with arrows.

So, yeah, TPK less than 20 minutes into the adventure. I was laughing hysterically. They were groaning.

Much to their annoyance, I started to read from the Developments section... "In the unlikely event that the goblins defeat the adventurers..."

And so the goblins made off with all of the PC's weapons, ammunition, coins, and food. The humiliated PCs mutually agreed to never speak of that encounter again, armed themselves with crowbars the Rogue stole and hid earlier, then continued the adventure.

That sounds hilarious. Well, welcome to the club!

[MustacheFart]

That sounds hilarious. Well, welcome to the club!

You know, I kept reading people saying they thought it was hilarious when their party TPK'ed and I didn't quite get it. I then had to think back to the one time I had a party TPK. I do remember finding it hilarious.

I don't recall all of the specifics except this was in 3.5. They were investigating a highly unusual town. Long story short, it ultimately led to them entering the church. The fought a couple of bad guys there including an alter that kept summoning fire elementals before they thought to destroy it. I think they fought 2 or 3.

They then discovered a secret passage to the catacombs below. For whatever reason, the cleric of the supremely optimized party decided to expend all of his spells self-buffing first. I had forewarned them the encounter would be tough. I meant story/investigation/sleuthing tough. They thought I meant encounter tough. They showed up with builds containing templates. I think the cleric was a half-minotaur. The rest were that one type of creature with the glowing runes...I can't remember the name.

Anyway, this was a long complex underneath the church so before they even got to the big fight the cleric's buffs ran out and he had no spells to heal the party. In fact, he didn't get to use his buffs at all because there was nothing for them to fight until the end--all there was was the big boss. The story behind it was that they were in his lair. The mechanics behind it was that I threw in a creature that would otherwise be too powerful for their group but since they were all heavily optimized it should've been a fair fight. It was a Reaver... I think was the name. That's the big monstrous spider that has the various powerful ray spells right? It's been years so forgive me.

In any case, they fell apart to it. I don't remember if it was his attacks that damaged it or his rays. I do remember they all somehow failed saves getting caught in the sticky web all over the place. In fact, I am not even sure they got a hit off on it. I think the barbarian may have done some damage to it before she was dropped. He pretty much decimated them. I gave one of the last remaining players (the barbarian's husband) a chance to drag her away and escape.

The problem with his attempt was two-fold. One she had died as he was trying to pull her and two he failed the necessary checks. This campaign was more of a horror themed world (so points to whoever guess the movie above lol) so there was a lot of throw-backs to old 80s horror movies tossed in. That said, this brings us to the real issue of the barbarian dieing. None of the other players had died they simply had all fell unconscious (except for her husband). When she died a certain item they had picked up earlier (a golden cube. Another reference which they all caught on as players when they found it) activated. A portal opened and immediately started sucking the unconscious players in. The boss spider scurried away from this.

One by one the players were sucked in, including the barbarian pulling her husband with her.

It was pretty hilarious. So, the party ultimately dies because they did no investigation, just stormed right in with overconfidence in their uber builds, and expended all healing resources poorly on useless buffs.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Had my first TPK last Saturday (Granted, I've only been DMing since July) running a demo game of the Starter module at the local shop. It happened in the first dungeon...

... the cragmaw cave. The players made their way in, taking out the guards in front and calming the wolves with meat and good rolls. Then they found the chimney up to the boss's chamber. The cleric climbed up but made a lot of noise, so when she reached the top the bugbear, wolf and two goblins we're alerted. Realizing she was about to get mauled, she decided to just let herself drop back down. She survived the fall, barely. They dispatched the goblins who shot down at them, and when no-one came down after them, they immediately started exploring deeper into the cave (The bugbear and wolf were just running around the long way, alerting the other goblins they passed). So the party goes up the main passage only to get hit with the water-flood trap, then pounced on by the gang of creatures following in the water's wake. Lucky rolls from the bugbear dropped the fighter and cleric in one round each, and the rogue and wizard we're doomed from there. The wizard bled out on the cave floor, while the rogue got caught trying to flee.
Those who stabilized were imprisoned, tortured and interrogated and then sold into slavery. So ended our heroes' quest.

[Farner]

The worst parts? The Barbarian forgot she had javelins to throw, the Dragonborn forgot about her breath weapon, and if the two hadn't split their focus the odds of success were massively in their favor. Ah well, they had fun anyway. :smallsmile:

:smalleek: As DM, IMO, when the tide was shifting against the PCs, you should've called "pause" on the IC action for one to two minutes real-time and had the players look over their CRS and consider a possible strategy change.

You can be a hard-a## about these types of things if you like but it's better long term if you're not. If you always have one player who forgets what his PC can do then repeated PC-death might be the solution there. :smallwink:

TPK should be rare and, in hindsight from an in-character roleplaying perspective, unavoidable.

[pwykersotz]

:smalleek: As DM, IMO, when the tide was shifting against the PCs, you should've called "pause" on the IC action for one to two minutes real-time and had the players look over their CRS and consider a possible strategy change.

You can be a hard-a## about these types of things if you like but it's better long term if you're not. If you always have one player who forgets what his PC can do then repeated PC-death might be the solution there. :smallwink:

TPK should be rare and, in hindsight from an in-character roleplaying perspective, unavoidable.

I think you misunderstand, this was the first 5e game I ran. None of us remembered these options were there. It wasn't about attitude or helpfulness, it was about knowing the sheets. And these weren't newbie gamers, they're veterans. They've played for years in a variety of systems. We didn't realize it was avoidable until 30 minutes after the TPK and we were laughing about it. :smallwink:

[Farner]

I think you misunderstand,... these weren't newbie gamers, they're veterans. They've played for years in a variety of systems. We didn't realize it was avoidable until 30 minutes after the TPK and we were laughing about it. :smallwink:

Oh, OK. :smallsigh:

A group of TTRPG veterans split the party. Yeah, all you can do is laugh at the TPK then. :smallamused:

[pwykersotz]

Oh, OK. :smallsigh:

A group of TTRPG veterans split the party. Yeah, all you can do is laugh at the TPK then. :smallamused:

They never really left the same room so they split their actions more than anything. The Barbarian thought there was nothing to be done other than hucking a warhammer 20 feet into the air and hoping to get lucky, and thought the best chance was to grab the kid and run. There were a lot more matters of circumstance that I omitted for the sake of brevity too.

But yeah, it was good times.