How to use hard stats to define optimization in 3.5

[aleucard]

I'm wondering if it's possible to determine how optimized (in the standard low<mid<high<TO<Tippy format) a given character is at a certain level by where exactly they happen to lie on certain metrics, and how many of these metrics exceed a given level. Anything that would be of interest to a high-level optimizer, whatever that means for you, would qualify. I want to see what levels whatever those metrics are (whether they be Saves, Attack Bonus, certain Skill checks, anything) at each level of optimization for someone who uses the metric as at least part of their primary design purpose. Obviously, if a character can hit these levels when they consider the given metric secondary or further, then they're even stronger than normally assumed from their primary optimization. If possible, post what level each metric is measured for. A level 20 character would be expected to be better than a level 1 in basically everything, after all.

[Silva Stormrage]

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: Noooooooo


Actual answer: There isn't going to be a way to really do this as, 1) Optimization is subjective and "Higher numbers" isn't always what optimization does (See batman wizard vs uber charger). 2) Each optimization level varies from player to player. Some people think serious optimization is using easy metamagic on empower spell to reduce the spell level cost by 1, or that all early entry is cheese. While others can say everything is fair game. No one is right, it is by its very nature subjective. 3) Too many things to keep track of. Have you seen this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) For your system it would need a LOT more effort than that as you can't have a simple 4 point ranking system and you would need to account for each sections own individual use.

There is just too much work for it to be done.

[sideswipe]

you could, but each build would need as much work grading it as a doctoral candidates thesis. you would basicly have to (at each level) compare it to a huge variety of appropriate encounters and crunch numbers a lot. then compile them and then find a way to grade it successfully. i think it would take 30 hours to do all that.... for each build.

[Necroticplague]

Simply using "hard stats", which I assume are numbers, are impossible to show the optimization level of a character. While simply getting bigger numbers is optimization at the lower end, the higher end is making it so that numbers don't matter. You're +yes ubercharger damage does nothing when my Juggernaut companion traps you in a forcecage. Optmization is more like a checklist based on level. "Can I perform (action) reliably, or deal with (situation) in a consistent manner"?So while you theoretically could build such a checklist, it would be so massive and rambling as to be almost useless as a tool for judging anything.

[Greenish]

For that matter, even if you only go by numbers, class has a big effect. A relatively highly optimized commoner might not boast the numbers of a mediocre barbarian, say.

Anyway, for optimization, being able to bring your numbers to bear is usually as if not more important than having them (and high op high tier classes are above such pesky things as numbers). A fighter with weapon focus chain and power attack can pump pretty high numbers with full attacks, for example.

[aleucard]

I made this topic to try and get a more hard-line method of gauging how optimized something actually is without having to run it through a couple dozen scenarios and compare how it does to other builds that have done the same. The best way I can think of doing so for at least certain types of character is measuring things with definite numbers attached to them, such as Attributes, Saves, and Attack Bonus. DC of a given optimization level's spells would also be nice.

[Necroticplague]

I made this topic to try and get a more hard-line method of gauging how optimized something actually is without having to run it through a couple dozen scenarios and compare how it does to other builds that have done the same. The best way I can think of doing so for at least certain types of character is measuring things with definite numbers attached to them, such as Attributes, Saves, and Attack Bonus. DC of a given optimization level's spells would also be nice.

Sadly impossible. Numbers are poor indicators of optimization, and high-op is most defined by being able to handle a wide variety of situations, best shown by running the build through a variety of situations.

[Dread_Head]

If you just want to look at the hard numbers then it can be done. Have you seen Optimisation by Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1118841)? I think it does about what you are wanting. Some of the maths is a bit complicated but you can get meaningful data just from the table of average and max values for saves, hp etc by CR.

Edit: Although of course as everyone else is saying optimisation isn't as much down to high numbers as the number of options you have in any given scenario.

[Gemini476]

You could get some kind of rough idea for the op-level by running it against some averaged monsters (the old Optimization By The Numbers (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3472)thread is useful for this).

If your character can defeat CR 5+ monsters in less than a round consistently? It's reasonably high-op. If it fails to defeat equal CR opponents within twenty turns, even assuming buffs from friendly PCs? You're pretty low-op (and also screwed).

You'll need to look at some actual monsters from those CRs as well, though, to adjust results for DR and immunities and whatnot. It's a rough guide that might be useful, though.

Of course, that just shows your aptitude versus monsters in combat. You'll need to figure out something else for defense and social stuff and exploration and traps and whatnot.