Druid wildshape situational forms

[lytokk]

What animals work best for a druid's wildshape to fit different situations? Currently, the druid is at level 6, but I wouldn't mind any and all suggestions even if they don't fit for right now. I'm making notecards for my wifes druid, but I really am not sure. So far, I have a few cartegories, with my best ideas for each, and I'm trying to keep it to just core, for now.

Flight
Falcon/Eagle
Desmondu hunting bat

Multiple attack Damage Just a general combatant
Deinonychus

Single attack damage for when you're going up against things with DR
Crocodile

Infiltration
?

Grappler
Constrictor snake
Crocodile

High Strenth In case something needs to be pulled, or when you just really need the muscles
?

High HP/AC tankish Something that'll take the hits if the situation needs it
?

Climber In case flight isn't an option
?

If anyone has any ideas for other roles/categories to add to this list I'll put them on here. The desmundo bat won't come on til she can go tiny size, but I'll suggest it when she gets to that point. (I stand corrected) Or if anyone's already made this sort of list on the level dependant basis I'd love to see it but google shows me nothing.

[Daishain]

Some good ones:


Fleshraker Dinosaur, general combat, if you and the DM don't mind the idea, (I for one don't think I could keep a striaght face) this thing is ridiculously powerful

Desmodu Hunting Bat, flight/defense, also useful for flyby and kiting attacks, can act as mount for smaller party members

Crocodile, grappler/general combat, tough SOB that tears anything it grabs to shreds

Leopard, charger

dog/riding dog, situational infiltrator/general combat, no one ever pays attention to the mutt sniffing for scraps, also tougher than most expect

[eggynack]

The desmundo bat won't come on til she can go tiny size.
Why's that? The desmodu hunting bat is medium sized, with HD low enough that you can use it as soon as you have wild shape.

[lytokk]

Why's that? The desmodu hunting bat is medium sized, with HD low enough that you can use it as soon as you have wild shape.

then I have apparently remembered the hunting bat wrong, yup, totally wrong.


Some good ones:


Fleshraker Dinosaur, general combat, if you and the DM don't mind the idea, (I for one don't think I could keep a striaght face) this thing is ridiculously powerful

Desmodu Hunting Bat, flight/defense, also useful for flyby and kiting attacks, can act as mount for smaller party members

Crocodile, grappler/general combat, tough SOB that tears anything it grabs to shreds

Leopard, charger

dog/riding dog, situational infiltrator/general combat, no one ever pays attention to the mutt sniffing for scraps, also tougher than most expect

I'm the DM, and I really have to turn down the fleshraker. That thing is just too nuts. Trying to keep it to core, but if she wants to use the bat to survey the scene or cast from a height I really don't mind it.

Will add crocodile to the list, but I think the deino has the leopard beat on charges.

[Ketiara]

The desmundo bat won't come on til she can go tiny size, but I'll suggest it when she gets to that point.

How come she needs to be tiny? In my sources (MMII) a desmondu guard bat is medium, a hunting bat is large and the war bat is huge.


EDIT: Ninjaed! Damn you eggy

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Druid Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) has a list, but it's outdated and far from complete. It also doesn't take Enhance Wild Shape into account, so it's pretty light on lower HD plant forms and doesn't list useful (Ex) abilities.

For plant forms i suggest taking a look at Fiend Folio. It's pretty much the "OMGPLANTS" book. Seriously, 4 of the 7 plant monsters in this book range from strong to get-books-thrown-at-you. The other 3 are "merely" situationally useful.

[eggynack]

For plant forms i suggest taking a look at Fiend Folio. It's pretty much the "OMGPLANTS" book. Seriously, 4 of the 7 plant monsters in this book range from strong to get-books-thrown-at-you. The other 3 are "merely" situationally useful.
Can't say I've ever seen the fiend folio described in that manner before. Kelp angler looks great, like a wingless desmodu hunting bat with its blindsight back in action and a pile of defensive abilities. That one probably is on the book hurling side of things. Yellow musk creeper is always good, and one of the two big methods of wild shape zombie creation, along with myconid sovereign. Sovereign's probably better though.

Ironmaw is certainly ridiculously cool on multiple levels, but it gets caught up a bit in the dire tortoise crunch. Octopus tree is hit by that same bat, in almost the same way. They're pretty awesome if you somehow have the fiend folio and not sandstorm for some reason though. The rest I'd figure for the situational usefulness category, though vine horror is hilarious. Is that about the categorization at work?

[Daishain]

Will add crocodile to the list, but I think the deino has the leopard beat on charges.

Probably, I mainly mentioned the leopard because many DMs don't like dinosaurs like the deino in their campaign. I know I don't.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Can't say I've ever seen the fiend folio described in that manner before. Kelp angler looks great, like a wingless desmodu hunting bat with its blindsight back in action and a pile of defensive abilities. That one probably is on the book hurling side of things. Yellow musk creeper is always good, and one of the two big methods of wild shape zombie creation, along with myconid sovereign. Sovereign's probably better though.

Ironmaw is certainly ridiculously cool on multiple levels, but it gets caught up a bit in the dire tortoise crunch. Octopus tree is hit by that same bat, in almost the same way. They're pretty awesome if you somehow have the fiend folio and not sandstorm for some reason though. The rest I'd figure for the situational usefulness category, though vine horror is hilarious. Is that about the categorization at work?

The Bloodthorn is situationally useful as a low-mid level combat form. 4 attacks with reach and Con drain are okay if not overwhelming.
The Sporebat really needs Assume Supernatural Ability to work. Otherwise it would be a pretty nice stealth form if it weren't for its high HD. Still useful sometimes, but not something you use a lot.
The Vine Horror has a humanoid form, so it can use weapons. It also has low HD so you can get it as soon as you have Enhance Wild Shape for plant immunities. The racial hide bonus can be useful as well.
Those are the situational forms.

Yellow Musk Creeper you've already said what there is to say. It's also notable for the no-save, no action cost Int damage though. Note that you don't have to use the Musk Puff ability (it's mind-affecting), you just have to render the target helpless and then move into its space. The drain is automatic after that and doesn't stop once it has started.
The Kelp Angler is notable especially for its immunity to bludgeoning damage. Blindsight, Cold Immunity and Regeneration just add to its toughness. Also a few decent skill boosts and a great swimmer.
The Octopus Tree. 9 attacks, Swallow Whole, Frightful Presence, Regeneration. Also a massive +24 to natural armor. It's better as a summon though (SNA IX).
The Ironmaw is ridiculous mainly for its 4 wounding, con damage, grappling 60ft tendril attacks. For extra hilarity use Hierophant 1 with Power of Nature and give it to an animal companion that has Combat Reflexes.

Dire Tortoise is certainly useful, but there's no reason you can't change after the surprise round (as a swift action even, with Mantle of the Beast). You certainly get enough Wild Shape uses at higher levels to do it at least for the challenging fights.

The book also has a few decent aberration forms, if you have the necessary feat. All in all it's a great resource for wild shape shenanigans.

[eggynack]

Dire Tortoise is certainly useful, but there's no reason you can't change after the surprise round (as a swift action even, with Mantle of the Beast).
That works for octopus tree to some extent, but it works a lot worse for the kelp angler, because a lot of its best stuff has a heavy lag time for enhance wild shape. You really want to be a kelp angler full time if you want to be one at all. The same issue is present in a lot of aberration forms, incidentally, but those aren't usually huge, and tend to justify that cost better.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That works for octopus tree to some extent, but it works a lot worse for the kelp angler, because a lot of its best stuff has a heavy lag time for enhance wild shape. You really want to be a kelp angler full time if you want to be one at all. The same issue is present in a lot of aberration forms, incidentally, but those aren't usually huge, and tend to justify that cost better.

True enough. Damn that Dire Tortoise and its awesomeness for making other awesome shapes less viable. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

Burrow root from MM5 has a goodly number of HD, but has some excellent utility.

- Burrow: Probably the most exploitable movement mode in the game, especially in wild settings. Add in Rapid Burrow special ability if you can get it with Wild Shape.

- Blood Drain Damage: Pretty good here, especially for long fights where the ability is able to stack up over multiple hits (assuming direct combat, which is ofc sub-optimal).

- Minionmancy: At higher levels, it becomes possible to create new burrow roots with its divide ability, which is very easy to exploit. Controlling them is another matter entirely, but not impossible by a long shot.

[eggynack]

True enough. Damn that Dire Tortoise and its awesomeness for making other awesome shapes less viable. :smalltongue:
Yeah, it's really pretty tragic. Turns frozen wild shape from the epitome of awesome to good but a whole lot less awesome. I mean, you can do the swift change for that, but then you're spending a feat on a form you're only swapping into on occasion, and while uses/day might be plentiful, going tortoise -> hydra -> tortoise every combat eats those uses fast.

Add in Rapid Burrow special ability if you can get it with Wild Shape.

You definitely can. Wild shape grants blanket access to movement modes, theoretically even including Su movement modes if they exist.

[lytokk]

I guess I never realized how many plant types there were in the game.

If I could get these categories down to about 5, what should they be? Right now I've got the crocodile being able to do the damage on a single attack and grappler. Ideally, I just want my wie to have about 5 shapes on cards. I wouldn't remove a card from the index, I just want to simplify things as much as possible until she gets a better hang of it and starts researchign other forms, especially once other sizes start coming online next level.

[Zaq]

The sailsnake (MM4) has both a climb speed and a fly speed, and it's available as soon as you get Wild Shape, since it's only got 3 HD. It's not a combat monster, but it's a nice utility option for low-level Druids. (Druids who can access better forms will want to do so, of course; the biggest advantage is that it's available at such a low level.)

[eggynack]

The sailsnake (MM4) has both a climb speed and a fly speed, and it's available as soon as you get Wild Shape, since it's only got 3 HD. It's not a combat monster, but it's a nice utility option for low-level Druids. (Druids who can access better forms will want to do so, of course; the biggest advantage is that it's available at such a low level.)
I can't really think of much in the way of situations where that'd better than a desmodu hunting bat. Most utility that could be gained from access to both fly and climb is eliminated by good maneuverability and the fact that it lets you hover.

As for forms, you probably don't even need that many at this level. The bat is a fantastic combination defensive casting and flying form, and the deinonychus covers most of the ground you'd want in terms of beat-stickery at medium. Doesn't get much better than that. Beyond that point, I'd just try to fit in an aquatic form, though that can mostly be replaced by heart of water, and she probably doesn't need any help picking out a mundane form to let her sneak about unnoticed. More than that, that issue's probably one that can't be handled statistically.

[Extra Anchovies]

Where can I find this Dire Tortoise, and what about it is so good?

[eggynack]

Where can I find this Dire Tortoise, and what about it is so good?
It's in sandstorm, and on top of a solid 25 AC, it has lightning strike, which allows it to always act in the surprise round. That simultaneously means that it's impossible for someone to get the drop on you, because if someone surprises you then you act with them, and it means that you always get the drop on enemies if you're at a reasonable state of surprise parity, because you act in the surprise round and they don't. It's a reasonable thing on a big animal, because all it can do is eat you, but when you're running full casting, it's a lot more powerful. As a result, dire tortoise is one of the better ways for a druid to screw the action economy, especially if we're talking stuff that all druids have access to.