A favored soul/sorceror mystic theurge

[Dunditschia]

I want to play a sorceror/favored soul theurge as a new character. I know it's a weak combination, but the rest of the party are all martial characters (barbarian, scout, etc.), so I don't want to overshadow them too much, and the extra spells per day are convenient to keep up with them in longevity. There is also no arcane or divine spellcaster, so I want to provide both healing and some general utility.

So, any fun things to do with this combination? Previous threads have mostly focused on how the combination is suboptimal, but that is not a problem in this case. Race is human, and I want to use my first level feats for some earlier entry (level 4) shenanigans, but the build is otherwise open. All 3.5 material is allowed, dragon magazine too if it's not ridiculous.

EDIT: It's a backup character, will probably be used around level 8 or 10. The DM will probably be OK with just extending the mystisc theurge class a bit, considering it lacks features already. To get knowledge (religion) I wanted to use the favored soul variant that traded in knowledge (arcana).

I mostly wanted to fill in the sorcerer spells with debuffs (blindness/deafness, slow) and some damage spells (fireball and such). Favored soul side would be healing and buffs, nothing that requires a save, to remove the MAD. Utility spells would be on both sides, where-ever there are some free spells known. Because there's no other casters I don't want to specialize too much.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Make sure you focus on divine spells without saves so you can forget having a WIS-score. As for early entry, a sorcerer with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell can cast 2nd level spells as soon as he can cast 1st level spells. As both of those feats are usable by divine casters, too, the whole spell level requirements are met with just one level in each base class.

Thus, the set-up is Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Choice base class 1/MT 10. I'd focus more on sorcerer and would probably end with either Mage of the Arcane Order or another arcane-boosting PrC.

[Rebel7284]

I put a lot of thought into it here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354281-Optimize-a-sorceror-favored-soul

Also, since then, someone pointed out that Favored Souls get knowledge religion here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian from Races of Destiny, get the Krau sigil, take the feat Improved Sigil: Krau at 3rd, and go 2/1/MT. No wasting feats on Practiced Spellcaster, and no waiting until you're tenth level to get third level spells.

[holywhippet]

As for early entry, a sorcerer with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell can cast 2nd level spells as soon as he can cast 1st level spells. As both of those feats are usable by divine casters, too, the whole spell level requirements are met with just one level in each base class.


That may or may not fly with a DM. Technically you aren't casting second level spells but rather a spell with effective level of a second level spell. I could see it might be possible using RAW but not every DM will allow that kind of trickery.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That may or may not fly with a DM. Technically you aren't casting second level spells but rather a spell with effective level of a second level spell. I could see it might be possible using RAW but not every DM will allow that kind of trickery.

For all purposes, a Magic Missile under the effects of the Heighten Spell feat is whatever level you make it via the feat. Is it a spell found on the 2nd level sorcerer list? No. Is it a 2nd level sorcerer spell for determining save, amount per day, whether it bypasses the Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Turning, and Dispel Magic lines of spells, plus other stranger things like The Spire upon which Sigil rests telling you that that level of magic no longer "works?" You bet your bananas those things see a 2nd level sorcerer spell!

[Desthro]

Other options that might suit you well, paladin/sorcerer since their cha scores stack for good effect and lay on hands, (while not the raw healing magic of a full-divine caster) it is nothing to sneeze at. Pallies get wonderful abilities to help support your team. Also, pure sorcerer with the feat Divine Sorcery from DR343, gives you access to a domain power and you can add one of the domain spells to your spell list. It'll let you play the healer if you take the healing domain, and let you focus on a purer, stronger arcane class and opens up better PRC options than MT.

Pretty strong for a 1st level feat imho.

Just possibly different options... =)

[Dunditschia]

Thanks for all the information, I will look into divine sorcery. I was planning to use the versatile spellcaster heighten spell trick to enter mystic theurge at level 4 or 5.

How is this supposed to work though:

Other options that might suit you well, paladin/sorcerer since their cha scores stack for good effect and lay on hands, (while not the raw healing magic of a full-divine caster) it is nothing to sneeze at. Pallies get wonderful abilities to help support your team.

Should I just multiclass paladin-sorceror? Mystic theurge only advances spellcasting, so that would be nearly strictly inferior to favored soul on the divine side. Multiclass also seems pretty weak though.

[Rebel7284]

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Other classes that boost both BAB and casting is popular (although suboptimal) due to charisma to saves and ability to hit things with a stick.
However using paladins for casting seems like a BAD idea.

What is your plan after you're done with Mystic Theurge though? Or will the campaign not get that far?

[Desthro]

Thanks for all the information, I will look into divine sorcery. I was planning to use the versatile spellcaster heighten spell trick to enter mystic theurge at level 4 or 5.

How is this supposed to work though:

Should I just multiclass paladin-sorceror? Mystic theurge only advances spellcasting, so that would be nearly strictly inferior to favored soul on the divine side. Multiclass also seems pretty weak though.

Sorry, I went to work shortly after. The pally/sorcerer build is not strictly good in any sense, because of the slap in the face you get for spellcasting, I'd have to do some more serious research to find a good viable function for it. (it'd definitely make you less squishy though... and the pally saves... oh man).

I like the Divine Sorcerer option, it's not something I had explored before, and since you essentially get the cleric's spontaneous heal for the feat, with a bonus spell known that can change each day from the healing domain list, and the healing domain power, all for a feat it's pretty hard to pass up. It's also not super-optimized and leaves you some fun room for character development since your future is mostly unplanned.

You could also talk to your DM about allowing the Divine Sorcerer feat on a Duskblade, which would be REALLY cool too. No top-end spells, but you'd get tons of mid-level spells to power your healing, a good BaB, armor, and that full channel on heal spells kinda makes up for missing out on some of the upper end stuff like mass heal.

Lots of fun ways to go about it =)

[ranagrande]

Another alternative would be to play the variant Sorcerer from the DMG, the Witch.

It gets healing, lots of good utility spells, and the entire polymorph line all in one class.

[torrasque666]

You do know that the witch was used only as an example for creating new classes right?

[ranagrande]

Sure. Is that a reason not to use it?

[torrasque666]

Aside from the fact that it doesn't actually exist as an official 3.5 class? As far as I know, its only a spell list actually. No class features, no BAB/saves progression, nothing. Doesn't even call it out as a real variant. Its more like a combination of a fixed-list caster and sorcerer spells per day and casting stat. Its more like a variant Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro than a variant Sorcerer.

[ranagrande]

As you say, it's only a spell list, but it comes right after a section explaining that significant changes to spell lists can used to create new classes.

So, play a Sorcerer, choose your spells known from that list instead of the Sorcerer/Wizard list and, boom, you're a Witch.

It is actually considerably weaker than the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, as there is nothing to suggest that Witches know all of their spells.

[Divide by Zero]

That may or may not fly with a DM. Technically you aren't casting second level spells but rather a spell with effective level of a second level spell. I could see it might be possible using RAW but not every DM will allow that kind of trickery.

Well, aside from the fact that OP specifically said that early entry tricks are on the table, the other options are either using an even cheesier early entry method, or not starting MT until level 9 and being four levels behind where you should be. And it's arguable whether even an early entry MT is stronger than a single-classed caster since they're still 1-2 levels behind, so it's not like it's THAT cheesy (especially since OP recognizes that he needs to hold back).

[Necroticplague]

What level are you starting at? If you're starting in the mid levels, sharn are pretty much good for this out of the box. They innately have both sorcerer and favoured soul casting (6th level), have enough actions to make use of both, and they cast their spells as SLAs (including being material component free). Their Hex Portal helps out with touch spells, and it has some nice on-spell related perks (like several bonus feats, stat boosts ranging from +8 to +10, regeneration, DR, and Evasion). Unfortunately, they can't use polymorph-type effects on themselves, and they're ECL 9 without any class levels. Heck, it even mentions in their entry they often go Mystic Theurge.

[nedz]

What sort of Sorcerer did you want to play ?
One option is to take one of the fixed list casters { Beguiler, Dread Necromancer or Warmage } and then add in several picks of Arcane Disciple. You would need to pick up Knowledge (Religion), but there are several feats for that.

[Ruethgar]

As to early entry there is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm#mysticTheurge). So as long at you can make DC 16 Kowledge Arcana and Religion checks you can get in at 3.

[Jigawatts]

A shame you guys aren't playing Pathfinder, as this is a really nice (and viable) option for that style of character.

https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/theurge

Maybe you can get your DM to let you reverse engineer it.

[Thurbane]

See if your DM will let Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster advance MT casting beyond 10th without it going into the crappy epic progression of MT.

[Dunditschia]

Thanks for all the help, I added some more extensive information in the OP about what I want to do with the character.

[atemu1234]

All in all, the combination is frankly sub-par. However, I've wanted to do it before, too. Race should probably be spellscale.

[Desthro]

If it's just a junk character, go MT and call it a day. No need to make it complicated I guess =O

But if you need variable healing and support i still feel that Divine Sorcerer + Craft Wand would be a good way to go on a sorcerer.