"Dishonor" Damage

[Erasmas]

Alright, I have a question that is giving me some trouble and I hope that some of the fine DMs here might be able to help me out. The problem is that it's an extremely abstract notion that I am trying to calculate into a mechanical ability. I can't go too into the specifics because at least one of my players is also a member of our beloved Playground. With that said, Pife... if you're reading this, please vacate the thread immediately!

Go on... scram!


Now, I will have a monster in an upcoming Asian-themed campaign that I am going to run that I want to be able to do "damage" through some kind of dishonor/shame attack. Family honor is going to play a large role in my game and I want this creature to be able to hit the characters in an emotional way, causing them great shame somehow... but I am all out of ideas.

Help?

[Sian]

not able to say for sure, but i would start out with scaning Oriental Adventures

[Extra Anchovies]

Possibly a gaze attack that causes the targets to experience visions of themselves committing horrible dishonorable acts? A failed will save puts them under a Confusion effect for a few rounds, taking nonlethal damage (and maybe one point of wisdom damage per round, if you're feeling mean) the whole time as they scream and tear at themselves in anguish, while a successful save leaves them with some nonlethal damage (and maybe a point of wisdom damage) and one round of stun?

...damn, the speed with which I came up with that really creeps me out...

ETA: For extra scariness, have its face look like the face of a loved one to anybody who looks at it, but make the rest of its body grotesque and misshapen.

[Segev]

Well, do you have a fluff idea in mind as to what, precisely, this "dishonor" or "shame" is caused by? Is it metaphysical? Is it reputation-only? Is it fate-based?

Do you have an "honor" stat that the families each hold, which gives some sort of mechanical effect to members' rolls (perhaps a bonus to Diplomacy, some sort of way to use it in honorable combat)? If so, you just have this creature's attack deal damage straight to that. If not...

If it's an illusion, it's a will save to disbelieve when the attack is used. For each failed will save, nothing happens immediately. But when the PCs return to civilization, the PC in question hears rumors of a dark family secret for each failed will save he obtained. This is actually the illusion, causing him to hallucinate evidence. But he WILL find it, and the harder he tries to avoid finding it, the more glaring it will seem. If he comes out and discusses it, it will bring shame to his family that one of their own would suggest such a thing; where there's smoke, there's fire, after all. If he tries to cover it up, the illusory evidence will get more and more out of hand, until his actions covering it up become scandalous.

If it's a compulsion, he will actually go back and commit dishonorable deeds. It could be as subtle as a hidden penalty to his rolls to resist temptations to do so (e.g. a Charm spell by an enchantress could work more easily to get him to dishonor himself and his family), or as overt as dominating him to do something publicly shameful.

If it's reputational, then the attack marks him in some way that looks like a mark of shame. Perhaps it gives him a disfigurement that resembles a disease one only gets through dishonorable action, or his equipment malfunctions in ways that make him scandalously dressed. Or perhaps it magically creates and plants a rumor about him and his family, for real (rather than the illusion), with consequential effects on family reputation.

[Erasmas]

Yeah, I had toyed with the idea of ability damage/drain (though I had thought of Charisma instead of Wisdom). And something along those lines is likely the best course of action. I was also thinking of having Family Honor be a score akin to Reputation in some other games. With that, the creature could just impose some kind of penalty or subtraction from that number... but I'm not sure how I feel about that entirely.

And yes, I will look through the Oriental Adventures book again, but I don't recall seeing anything like this any of the times that I have thumbed through it before.

Thank you both for taking the time to reply (even if it was with self-creeping speeds).
:smallwink:

EDIT (Ninja'd by Segev): Wow... those are all fantastic suggestions! Very outside the box and all of them capture exactly the kind of thing that I was going for. Initially, I had planned for this monster to be one of the final encounters (if not the very last), but I think that I will move him up in the storyline so as to capitalize on some of this playing out longer term. Thank you, Segev.

[Sith_Happens]

https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/97/86/80/97868030b372a9967f88a974ea5af02c.jpg

...Carry on with your thread.:smalltongue:

[Desthro]

It depends on how core "honor" is in your world.

If honor is akin to your life force, then dishonor could very easily be understood as negative energy. What's great about that is that there is any number of wonderful, tainting, negative energy spells that exist and can be flavored for that effect. Your honor (HP) allows you to resist the effects of negative energy (damage), and it's pretty simple. =D

Higher levels of honor may indicate levels of negative energy resistance, as a suggestion or possibility. =) Character level could tinker with that, with negative levels lowering your character's honor until they atone themselves, etc. Fun stuff.

[Erasmas]

Ahh yes... I forgot all about Dishonorable Fire. Hmm, nevermind... problem solved guys!
:smalltongue:

Poor Zuko.

I don't intend for Honor to be quite as central to the setting as HP, but I definitely see what you're getting at. I think that I might be on the right (for me) track, which would not have been possible without all of your help. Seriously, thank you guys a ton!

[Segev]

Glad we could help!

Of my suggestions, the illusion is my favorite, because it lets the PLAYER participate in his character's family's dishonor without revoking his agency. The methods by which the public shame will accrue are up to the PC's individual character and nature. If he's dishonorable himself, he'll engage in dishonorable actions to cover it up. If he's honorable but defensive of his family, and doesn't want to believe it, he'll eventually be forced to confront them over it, and he'll believe they're lying to him. Does he expose them in hopes of making amends and cleansing the dishonor, or does he become part of (what he thinks is) the cover-up, and start engaging in dishonorable tactics once more? If he's honorable to a fault, will he simply out them, or compromise his morals?

The "safest" thing to do is to ignore it. But now, is he ignoring REAL shame along with the illusion? And, as the illusions grow ever more extreme, his "shameful" family members will start asking him to do things. Things which he might ignore, but eventually, he'll have trouble telling if the "seemingly innocent" thing he's being told to do is illusory or real, and if it's actually going to be dishonorable or not. Even a player who manages to guess right most of the time and never actually does dishonorable things even when obeying illusory orders will start to look insane. And insanity is, itself, somewhat embarrassing, which is shameful.

It's all about the player's choices, that way, rather than a compulsion forcing his character to do something.

[Erasmas]

Exactly!

And that was the one which I was leaning the most towards, because of some of those same reasons. It leaves the player options that could ultimately lead to true dishonor by their own hand, as opposed to "you're now shackled with some dishonor, enjoy". I will probably still have the attack do something more along the lines of some of the other ideas presented here, so as to 'mask' the true cost of the failed save. That way, the players don't metagame the truth because of a failed save that "did nothing to them".

[Extra Anchovies]

Or you could just tell them "you take X dishonor damage", only allow them to heal the damage by doing honorable quests, but not actually apply any mechanical effect from the damage :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

I'd just go with a role-play thing.

Mechanically you could go for some non-lethal damage, which would be temporary reflecting the shock. Due to his sudden dishonour, blows which he would have shrugged off, he now feels more keenly — HP are meant to be an abstraction, and this is similar to the spell Whelm.

[Slipperychicken]

Dishonor and shame could cause psychological trauma, represented in-game by sanity damage. Similarly, performing honorable deeds, rituals, receiving significant honors, and fulfilling one's duties in an exceptionally honorable manner can regain sanity. If your character hits zero, he commits suicide from the intense grief brought on by his shame. If he would gain honor above his maximum, gains a small morale bonus on saves against mind-affecting effects.

[Erasmas]

Once again, thank you everybody! These are really starting to help shape this into what is going to end up being a major feature of my setting now. I hadn't worked out exactly how I wanted Honor to work yet, so this is perfect.

Here is what I am thinking:
They will have Family Honor (more like the already-established Reputation rules) and then there will be Personal Honor (more like the Sanity rules). The two coincide with one another, and if one changes radically enough, it also affects the other. Running out of Personal Honor Points will result in your character being expected to commit a seppuku-like ritual suicide... in order to restore your Family's Honor despite your fall from grace. A character doesn't have to uphold that expectation, but if they do not... it leads to their excommunication from the family and exile from their lands (and probably some kind of Mark of Shame that will forever brand them for a dishonorable lout).

Now, this creature will impart some Personal Honor Damage with at least one of his attacks... but hidden beneath the surface will be the seeds of the illusions mentioned above - potentially causing far greater harm that could ultimately lead to the complete destruction of their Personal Honor.

Thoughts?

[Xelbiuj]

Something like this? I dunno
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/honor.htm

[Segev]

Given the presence of Personal and Family honor, and the monster dealing Personal Honor damage, I would suggest that the illusions persist until the actions of the afflicted family member have cost - by one means or another - the Family as many points of honor damage as the character himself suffered. Then, the illusions stop coming. He doesn't suddenly realize what was real and what was not, but he stops getting the illusions to make things seem worse or to support the claims.

[Erasmas]

Segev: Yes, perfect. The trial just goes cold and the rumors no longer seem to persist... but they can press at the cost of their own peril! I like it.

Xel: Oh, thanks. I should've thought to check there first! I appreciate the link, snarky or not. :smallbiggrin: At the very least, I should be able to refine the ideas that I already have rolling around in my head. And I will likely be able to mine further ideas from it as well!

[ShurikVch]

"Dishonor" Damage? :smallconfused:
:smallbiggrin:
According to Troll logic in dnd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370181-Troll-logic-in-dnd) thread,
Casting Glitterdust on a Vampire will cause it to commit suicide out of shame.

[Xelbiuj]

Segev: Yes, perfect. The trial just goes cold and the rumors no longer seem to persist... but they can press at the cost of their own peril! I like it.

Xel: Oh, thanks. I should've thought to check there first! I appreciate the link, snarky or not. :smallbiggrin: At the very least, I should be able to refine the ideas that I already have rolling around in my head. And I will likely be able to mine further ideas from it as well!

It wasn't mean to be snarky, I genuinely wasn't sure if that'd do. I don't have as much experience at the table as most people on here.

[BWR]

Big question - what exactly is 'honor' that it can be reduced by a physical attack? This sounds more like an innate metaphysical quality rather than a social construct.
Apart from that, I would suggest looking at the Legend of the Five Rings game for honor mechanics. While the D&D 3.0 version doesn't really do a lot with the honor system it introduces, the R&K versions have many mechanics that are based off of and affect Honor. Most of the abilities that target someone else's honor are social-based, however. I also think 1e D&D Oriental Adventures had something of an honor system, but I can't recall anything about it off-hand.

[Erasmas]

Oh, okay!
My apologies then. I read it wrong, mainly because the internet is terrible at conveying inflection. But again, it looks like it will prove to be a most useful addition to the tools at my disposal! Thank you again, Xel.

And thank you BWR for those additional resources to check out!
Again, it is an admitted abstraction, for certain. But, then again (as someone else pointed out earlier), so are hit points. A lot of the things in a game like D&D are simply represented by a numerical value, when their real life counterparts are not so easily summed up. It is the strive to bring that notion into mechanical terms that work alongside and intermixed with the other systems already in place, with some semblance of that original notion intact. Which is exactly why I came to pick the collective brains of those here!