NPC Bad Guys

[GreatDane]

As the title states, I have a question about NPC enemies. As an example situation, let's say the PCs' current goal is to infiltrate a dwarven treasury and steal a specific star sapphire needed for a ritual to restore a dying forest. Certainly the dwarves will have included a monster guardian or two, and there will be boundless ingenious traps. However, there will also be guards aplenty that need to be fought.

However, it's a common statement on the forums that D&D 3.5 isn't designed for PvP play. Generally, there are two reasons for this:


NPCs have gear beyond the treasure provided by an encounter of the NPC's CR, resulting in excessive wealth gain by the PCs.
PC class abilities/powers aren't keyed toward providing an interesting 4-round combat, unlike monsters, who typically possess powerful abilities that are easy to throw down in the few rounds for which they will appear. Thus, unless the NPC has many more class levels than the PCs, they don't have the same oomph as a monster.

Enemy NPCs are common in most games, though, and they usually derive their power from class levels: the gnoll warlock heading his tribe of fighters/barbarians, the human grand vizier (a wizard) and his apprentice, or even the dwarven fighters guarding a treasury.

The question at hand is: has anyone come up with a good way to include bad guys of typical races (elves, dwarves, etc.) as effective/interesting enemies?

[Curbstomp]

No. Just no. The entire series of games known as Dungeons and Dragons began as a war game. They are very much designed for fighting both philosophically and mechanically. That said you may be having some confusion with the term PvP. PvP means 'player versus player' and that is not ideal as Dungeons and Dragons was designed as a team game whose PC's explore, solve puzzles, evade traps , and fight together against enemies controlled by the Dungeon Master. The thing you actually meant based on your post is a fight between the party and NPC's with class levels who are controlled by the Dungeon Master.

To address your specific points on that topic:

1. NPC's only have more gear for the first few levels. After that the PC's out-treasure them significantly. Defeating enemies for treasure is normally how the PC's acquire that wealth.

2. Properly designed enemies with PC classes are far more deadly than monsters on average. That is why monstrous HD do not increase CR on a 1:1 basis. PC classes of an associated type DO. An enemy wizard of level 5 has far more things it can do to mess you and your allies up than a brown bear with the exact same challenge rating. The wizard has less HP but a greater array of tactical choices. I'll give you another example. Who are your players going to remember more? An orc with 14 HD of monstrous humanoid or an orc with 7 levels of Barbarian and 7 levels of Frenzied Berserker? I can tell you with certainty that the Frenzied Berserker will last longer in a fight and be far more terrifying to your PC's.

3. Adding class levels to enemies, if designed and role-played competently, does precisely what you are asking about. The good way you want to incorporate PC classes onto your villains is built directly into both the system and the genre.

[Yahzi]

What Curb said.

Don't just put out a high-level dwarven defender. Give him some backup. Your ideal situation, if you can pull it off, is that the BBEG dwarf guy fights from behind a dozen or so low level mooks, and keeps running away when the mooks are dead, only to show up again with more mooks. Do this three or four times and your players will be rabid to kill the guy, which will make it that much more fun when they do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dwarves defending their treasury would do so in groups, absolutely never alone. There's always backup, and when that fails there's more backup. Getting in and getting what they need won't be nearly as difficult as getting out in one piece. Make sure the vault is covered in an (Un)Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) effect that puts a Dimensional Anchor on every creature within.

With that said, NPC opponents' difficulty and treasure really depends on both their builds and on the PCs' level. In the low to mid levels, mundane equipment and buffs from potions are usually the way to go. In the mid to high levels, spell buffs and efficient necessary items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), particularly those with limited daily uses (Talisman of Undying Fortitude, Scout's Headband, Third Eye Clarity/Freedom, etc.), as well as potion buffs. I'll usually give every opponent at least two, preferably three, of every potion that I expect them to use one of during an encounter, just so they don't drink every bit of the loot.

First of all, the defenders of this vault would do everything they can to be forewarned of intruders before they get to the door. A (Un)Hallow outside the vault with Invisibility Purge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityPurge.htm) attached will automatically reveal invisible creatures in the entire area of the (Un)Hallow. As soon as intruders are detected, the defenders' absolute first priority will be to raise an alarm. They should have multiple possible alarms, from blowing a horn to throwing a ball or coin into a funnel that carries it down a tube to another guard post or barracks to pulling a rope that rings a bell that's well out of range of any silence effect. Backup, backup, backup!

Second, you want a mix of defenders. Durable defenders with high AC, high HP, immunities, resistances, etc. to stand in front and block the intruders. Dangerous defenders with reach weapons or ranged attacks to stand behind the durable ones. Tactical defenders who use crowd controls and try to keep the intruders from doing anything productive. Hold them off until backup, and then more backup arrives!

Third, they should have some kind of redundant security measure to make absolutely sure that intruders don't gain access to their vault. A Wall of Force + Permanency trap that the defenders can trigger to bar the entrance would be fairly simple. You could go with something more exotic, like making the entire vault a container suspended over a giant pit that it can be dropped into, which would take at least a few days of digging to make the door into it accessible again. Also be sure to include lead layers/screens, iron bars, and similar within all the walls to prevent anyone from gaining access via Passwall or similar (attempting to cast that on a section of wall that contains metals will automatically fail).

Finally, an ultimate defender within the vault itself such as a golem would be extremely fitting. Think of the Destroyer from Thor (http://youtu.be/GpDkxJZSwBc), though not necessarily so powerful that it takes Thor to defeat it.

[GreatDane]

Wow. So, first, it's pretty cool to post on the forums and get a response. I mostly just lurk, and you guys are super helpful.

So, things I'm gathering from replies:


1) PCs vs. NPCs with class levels isn't bad - "PvP" is bad because players are supposed to work together, NOT because PC classes aren't designed to fight each other.

2) Treasure issues balance out beyond low levels - the issue with NPCs carrying tons of treasure dies off when NPC wealth is actually outstripped by PC wealth.

3) NPCs with PC class levels actually make pretty good bad guys, provided they're built/roleplayed appropriately. (A charging behir is a less interesting encounter than a trained troop of dwarf fighters).

1) and 3) are good to hear. 2) Still confuses me - the average CR 5 encounter provides 1600 gp in treasure. However, a level 5 NPC has 4300 gp worth of stuff - armor, weapons, and magical trinkets that are handy for the PCs once the NPC looks more like a shish kebab. How does that work out? Is the NPC expected to consume a large chunk of their wealth in potions and the like?

Secondary question: what are your tips for an adventure in which the primary enemies are elves, dwarves, halflings, and other PC races? How do I keep encounters like that from becoming dull or repetitive? Current ideas include monster friends (guardian animals, exotic mounts, etc.) and highly varied classes (barbarians today, shadowdancers tomorrow!).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Secondary question: what are your tips for an adventure in which the primary enemies are elves, dwarves, halflings, and other PC races? How do I keep encounters like that from becoming dull or repetitive? Current ideas include monster friends (guardian animals, exotic mounts, etc.) and highly varied classes (barbarians today, shadowdancers tomorrow!).

Pets and minions are definitely useful for keeping encounters varied. Opponents with a huge variety of possible capabilities are also an option. For example, a Psion could be a Telepath and use mind-affecting powers like charm/dominate effects, crowd controls, and direct damage like Mind Thrust, and another Psion could be a Kineticist and use Energy Missile to destroy all the opponents' spell component pouches and divine spell foci before spamming area-effect energy damage. Meanwhile a Psychic Warrior could use psionic buffs instead of gear and still be a threat without providing tons of loot. Any of those could get Share Pain (via Expanded Knowledge if necessary) and keep it active on their Psicrystal so they take half damage from all sources, and the Psicrystal's Hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much. Clerics can have wildly different domains, outlooks, and spell selection. Wizards and Sorcerers could pick thematically similar spells, but follow completely different themes. Furthermore, intelligent opponents with escape mechanisms within their means should try to retreat when it's obvious that the battle is lost, so NPCs that you put hours of work into building can be encountered multiple times. NPC opponents can be just as varied as PCs, but it takes a lot more work than just finding stats for another monster in a book.

[Urpriest]

Wow. So, first, it's pretty cool to post on the forums and get a response. I mostly just lurk, and you guys are super helpful.

So, things I'm gathering from replies:



1) and 3) are good to hear. 2) Still confuses me - the average CR 5 encounter provides 1600 gp in treasure. However, a level 5 NPC has 4300 gp worth of stuff - armor, weapons, and magical trinkets that are handy for the PCs once the NPC looks more like a shish kebab. How does that work out? Is the NPC expected to consume a large chunk of their wealth in potions and the like?

Secondary question: what are your tips for an adventure in which the primary enemies are elves, dwarves, halflings, and other PC races? How do I keep encounters like that from becoming dull or repetitive? Current ideas include monster friends (guardian animals, exotic mounts, etc.) and highly varied classes (barbarians today, shadowdancers tomorrow!).

NPCs generally have triple treasure (so 1600 vs 4300 is probably wrong, if only by 500). Like other creatures with triple treasure (Dragons), you're supposed to balance NPC encounters with traps and no-treasure monsters so that on average the players get normal treasure.

[Sir Garanok]

I use lots of NPC's.

I give more attention to their leader who is much better than 15,14,13,12,10,8 build since he is a special NPC.

Also a minor strategic advantage(like having buffed himself cause he knew they where coming) and a few more levels without getting off cr can make a really powerful Npc,
especially if he has spellcasting abilities.