[Warlock/Sorcerer] Font of Magic + Pact Magic

[Ferrin33]

So I've been reading a bit, and a Warlock11/Sorcerer9 seems to be one of the most flexible casters regarding spell slots because of the combination of Pact Magic and Font of Magic. You'd of course be stuck with level 5 spell slots, but I think the extra two/three 5th level spell slots per short rest are very interesting because you can restore your sorcery points with them. It also gives you the ability to cast two Eldritch Blasts a round with quickened and both classes are based on charisma.

I don't think it's overpowered because you lose the higher level spell slots, but it gives so much flexibility that I'm wondering whether the average DM would allow it. What do you people think about it?

[Simian]

So I've been reading a bit, and a Warlock11/Sorcerer9 seems to be one of the most flexible casters regarding spell slots because of the combination of Pact Magic and Font of Magic. You'd of course be stuck with level 5 spell slots, but I think the extra two/three 5th level spell slots per short rest are very interesting because you can restore your sorcery points with them. It also gives you the ability to cast two Eldritch Blasts a round with quickened and both classes are based on charisma.

I don't think it's overpowered because you lose the higher level spell slots, but it gives so much flexibility that I'm wondering whether the average DM would allow it. What do you people think about it?

Now I'm wondering about how a warlock multiclass spell caster factors their spell slots. Do they still get their own 2 5th level slots. If you read the multiclassing rules don't they just contribute to the table of spell slots.

If this is true you would effectively have the exact same spell slots as a 20th level sorcerer, just your spells known and prepared would change.

But given the way that a warlocks abilities refresh spell slots on a short rest I'm not sure how that would work based on the way multiclassing casters determine spell slots.

Also, for the OPs point of having more spell slots. Remember that higher level spell slots can convert to lower tier spells automatically, so I could cast a 5th level spell in my 6-9th level spell slots. Meaning that I would start out with 6 more 5th level spells and if I were going to convert them into sorcery points I would get more than I would have with actual 5th level spell slots. Additionally, a sorcerer gets like 4 points per encounter for free at 20th level, so this further sets you back. Finally a straight sorcerer starts out with 11 additional points base (20 vs 9).

So if I converted all my extra spell slots to points at 20th level I would start ahead by 64 points. If you assumed that you took a 1 hour short rest after every encounter. That would mean you could convert 10 points per encounter vs the sorcerers 4 points per encounter. So you would need to have 11 encounters to catch up to the sorcerers 64 point lead. That's 11 hours a day before you would out arcane point a straight lvl 20 sorcerer.

No one would reasonably prefer to do 8+ short rests over 1 long rest.

Now in terms of 5th level spells, a 20th level sorcerer has 6 slots and 11 points that it could use to cast 5th level spells in more than a 9th level sorcerer. So you would only need 4 short rests to out class it there, but again, you could just cast higher level spells in those slots.

So it might give you slightly more mid level spells a day but it definitely will not let you out sorcery point a straight sorcerer.

[Ferrin33]

Warlocks are exempt from the multiclassing spellcaster rules and are not counted as a spellcaster for determining the number of spell slots and instead use their class table. The same goes for the sorcerer when multiclassed with a warlock, so as a 20th level warlock11/sorcerer9 I would have:
Sorcerer
Lvl1: 4
Lvl2: 3
Lvl3: 3
Lvl4: 3
Lvl5: 1

Pact Magic
Lvl5: 3

I would gain back more sorcery points than a straight sorcerer per short rest (15 in fact).

I would lose the following spell slots a straight sorcerer would have:
Lvl5: 2
Lvl6: 2
Lvl7: 2
Lvl8: 1
Lvl9: 1


I would know 6 more spells than the sorcerer, but only up to 5th level spells, not including Mystic Arcanum.

My blast potential is increased by Quickened Eldritch Blasts which the sorcerer would have to give up one 8th level spell slot and their short rest recharge.

Overall I believe this gives the Warlock/Sorcerer a huge boon for longer days as opposed to straight sorcerer with the sorcerer having game-enders with their 9th level spells.

[edge2054]

I don't think it's game breaking or overpowered. I'd probably go with a 3 Warlock/17 Sorcerer split myself. Two invocations, Pact Boon, and 4 Sorcery points returned each short rest coupled with 9th level spells, 15 Sorcery Point pool, three forms of metamagic (quicken, twin, and subtle would be my choices), and the level 14 origin feature.

[Rummy]

Warlocks are exempt from the multiclassing spellcaster rules and are not counted as a spellcaster for determining the number of spell slots and instead use their class table. The same goes for the sorcerer when multiclassed with a warlock, so as a 20th level warlock11/sorcerer9 I would have:
Sorcerer
Lvl1: 4
Lvl2: 3
Lvl3: 3
Lvl4: 3
Lvl5: 1

Pact Magic
Lvl5: 3

I would gain back more sorcery points than a straight sorcerer per short rest (15 in fact).

I would lose the following spell slots a straight sorcerer would have:
Lvl5: 2
Lvl6: 2
Lvl7: 2
Lvl8: 1
Lvl9: 1


I would know 6 more spells than the sorcerer, but only up to 5th level spells, not including Mystic Arcanum.

My blast potential is increased by Quickened Eldritch Blasts which the sorcerer would have to give up one 8th level spell slot and their short rest recharge.

Overall I believe this gives the Warlock/Sorcerer a huge boon for longer days as opposed to straight sorcerer with the sorcerer having game-enders with their 9th level spells.

You also miss out on twinned Disintegrate.

[DrLemniscate]

We also can't ignore the awesome utility of having an indefinite flying time outdoors, and being able to shoot Eldritch Blasts at up to 1,200 ft away at the same time (still trying to figure out how Spell Sniper and Distant Spell stack, if at all).

[Simian]

Warlocks are exempt from the multiclassing spellcaster rules and are not counted as a spellcaster for determining the number of spell slots and instead use their class table. The same goes for the sorcerer when multiclassed with a warlock, so as a 20th level warlock11/sorcerer9 I would have:
Sorcerer
Lvl1: 4
Lvl2: 3
Lvl3: 3
Lvl4: 3
Lvl5: 1

Pact Magic
Lvl5: 3

I would gain back more sorcery points than a straight sorcerer per short rest (15 in fact).

I would lose the following spell slots a straight sorcerer would have:
Lvl5: 2
Lvl6: 2
Lvl7: 2
Lvl8: 1
Lvl9: 1


I would know 6 more spells than the sorcerer, but only up to 5th level spells, not including Mystic Arcanum.

My blast potential is increased by Quickened Eldritch Blasts which the sorcerer would have to give up one 8th level spell slot and their short rest recharge.

Overall I believe this gives the Warlock/Sorcerer a huge boon for longer days as opposed to straight sorcerer with the sorcerer having game-enders with their 9th level spells.

Ok so you can get 15 per short rest. A sorcerer gets 4. 11 / 64 still requires 6 short rests. That's just to get 2 sorcery points ahead. To get an actual significant advantage you would need to do 7 or 8 and again, at this point, you might as well just have done a long rest making it all moot.

I agree that you would have more medium tier spells at the cost of your upper echelon spells, in the scenario where you're not converting them all to sorcery points.

[Ferrin33]

I don't think it's game breaking or overpowered. I'd probably go with a 3 Warlock/17 Sorcerer split myself. Two invocations, Pact Boon, and 4 Sorcery points returned each short rest coupled with 9th level spells, 15 Sorcery Point pool, three forms of metamagic (quicken, twin, and subtle would be my choices), and the level 14 origin feature.

That seems like a powerful alternative. You'd have a 17 sorcery point pool with Warlock3/Sorcerer17 though.

Compared to straight Sorcerer you'd lose a 5th, 6th, and 7th level spell slot, one Ability Score Increase, and the Sorcerous Origin class feature, and 3 sorcery points. You have the same number of sorcery points restored on a short rest but more flexibility if you'd need spells instead so it's actually better than the capstone. You'd also get 5 cantrips(Tome), two invocations, 2-3 1st level spells and 1-2 2nd level spells. You're more flexible, adept at blasting, and with more utility than a straight sorcerer. However; you also get your higher level spells later than a straight sorcerer, although in the meantime you would have a big boon with a lot of short rests.

[Giant2005]

The real strength is that you can use those short rests to convert your points into spell slots infinitely so with enough preparation, the Warlock/Sorc could leave for his adventure with thousands of available spell slots if he wanted to.
For instance after a short rest, he could convert himself 3 extra level 3 spell slots, rest another hour and get himself 3 more. After 16 hours of short rests, he has himself 48 extra level 3 spell slots.

[Surrealistik]

Wish > Simulacrum on a Warlock/Sorc hybrid with L9 casting invalidates this, unless you're in an unusual situation where you're short resting (only) for days.

[Ferrin33]

The real strength is that you can use those short rests to convert your points into spell slots infinitely so with enough preparation, the Warlock/Sorc could leave for his adventure with thousands of available spell slots if he wanted to.
For instance after a short rest, he could convert himself 3 extra level 3 spell slots, rest another hour and get himself 3 more. After 16 hours of short rests, he has himself 48 extra level 3 spell slots.

RAW you could as it puts no time limit or even a maximum on it, which is... silly. In fact, taking a long rest should restore all these "expended spell slots" that you get extra even with just going sorc20. Infinitely stacking spell slots every day just by using your class feature! Just.. no, let's not even go there. I'd imagine a good rule is that you reset your maximum spell slots of each level after every long rest. But damn, if going purely by RAW it's ridiculous.

[Giant2005]

RAW you could as it puts no time limit or even a maximum on it, which is... silly. In fact, taking a long rest should restore all these "expended spell slots" that you get extra even with just going sorc20. Infinitely stacking spell slots every day just by using your class feature! Just.. no, let's not even go there. I'd imagine a good rule is that you reset your maximum spell slots of each level after every long rest. But damn, if going purely by RAW it's ridiculous.

I agree on all accounts and I'd implement a rule where it resets on a long rest too but even that isn't infallible - Elves could go years without ever completing a long rest if they wanted to due to only needing 4 hours of meditation as an 8 hour sleep substitute.

[Ferrin33]

I agree on all accounts and I'd implement a rule where it resets on a long rest too but even that isn't infallible - Elves could go years without ever completing a long rest if they wanted to due to only needing 4 hours of meditation as an 8 hour sleep substitute.

Ah, but that counts as their long rest, they gain all the benefits of an 8 hour rest by doing so.

[Person_Man]

I haven't had a chance to play a high level game yet. But even putting aside Surrealistik's accurate point that game breakers like Wish and Simulacrum are radically more powerful then 5th level and lower magic, my guess is that any 6th/7th/8th/9th level spell you cast (or lower level spell cast out of those slots) is probably going to win the encounter you cast it in. On the flip side, if you're limited to 5th level and lower spells, it seems as if your spells will not scale and keep up with your allies who are casting higher level spells.

[Giant2005]

Ah, but that counts as their long rest, they gain all the benefits of an 8 hour rest by doing so.

Are you sure? I don't know of any rule that actually says that and even without being an Elf, you don't have to sleep the entire time for your 8 hours to count as a long rest - as long as no more than two hours of that time is spent on watch you are pretty good.
I think an Elf still needs eight hours for a long rest, they just don't need 8 hours of sleep. An Elf that meditated for four hours and then went on guard duty for the other four while others slept wouldn't qualify.
Actually as stupid as it sounds, I don't think there are actually any rules that force someone to rest at all whether they are an Elf or not. The exhaustion rules don't include gaining exhaustion by not resting, resting just reduces your exaustion so technically anyone regardless of their race could go an infinite amount of time without resting and never suffer from exhaustion as long as they don't gain exhaustion from another source (But even that exhaustion could be solved with Greater Restoration spells).

[Ferrin33]

I haven't had a chance to play a high level game yet. But even putting aside Surrealistik's accurate point that game breakers like Wish and Simulacrum are radically more powerful then 5th level and lower magic, my guess is that any 6th/7th/8th/9th level spell you cast (or lower level spell cast out of those slots) is probably going to win the encounter you cast it in. On the flip side, if you're limited to 5th level and lower spells, it seems as if your spells will not scale and keep up with your allies who are casting higher level spells.

While I would agree for the most part, I do feel that a lot of the mid-range spells have powerful enough effects to turn the tide of battle. Especially with all spells having the same saving throw attached and higher level spells being just as easy to resist as lower level spells. Overall I believe this does even the odds somewhat, especially as you have a greater variety of spells that you can use in each situation. (at least compared to a straight warlock or sorcerer)

So yes, the full caster will be able to nuke better, but will quickly run out of steam while the warlock/sorcerer will keep on going. (Eldritch Blast + Quickened Eldritch Blast every round is pretty decent damage, although warlock2/sorcerer18 does that too) I hope I'm not wrong and the balance of higher level spells is better than it was in 3.5.


Are you sure? I don't know of any rule that actually says that and even without being an Elf, you don't have to sleep the entire time for your 8 hours to count as a long rest - as long as no more than two hours of that time is spent on watch you are pretty good.
I think an Elf still needs eight hours for a long rest, they just don't need 8 hours of sleep. An Elf that meditated for four hours and then went on guard duty for the other four while others slept wouldn't qualify.
Actually as stupid as it sounds, I don't think there are actually any rules that force someone to rest at all whether they are an Elf or not. The exhaustion rules don't include gaining exhaustion by not resting, resting just reduces your exaustion so technically anyone regardless of their race could go an infinite amount of time without resting and never suffer from exhaustion as long as they don't gain exhaustion from another source (But even that exhaustion could be solved with Greater Restoration spells).

It says they gain the benefit a human does with 8 hours of sleep, so yes, that's pretty clear considering we're talking about 5e. :p

Yeah, it relies a lot on common sense and on the DM's call and less on specific rules. Which has its pros and cons.

[pwykersotz]

Ah, but that counts as their long rest, they gain all the benefits of an 8 hour rest by doing so.

You're free to rule otherwise (I agree that your way it seems to make more sense), but Mearls has actually responded to this question here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509866074775379968) and here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509944870274740224).


We also can't ignore the awesome utility of having an indefinite flying time outdoors, and being able to shoot Eldritch Blasts at up to 1,200 ft away at the same time (still trying to figure out how Spell Sniper and Distant Spell stack, if at all).

I can't find anything they don't by RAW, but I'll be saying doublings don't stack like that in my personal game. Not that there's much difference anymore when the range gets that crazy.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I haven't had a chance to play a high level game yet. But even putting aside Surrealistik's accurate point that game breakers like Wish and Simulacrum are radically more powerful then 5th level and lower magic, my guess is that any 6th/7th/8th/9th level spell you cast (or lower level spell cast out of those slots) is probably going to win the encounter you cast it in. On the flip side, if you're limited to 5th level and lower spells, it seems as if your spells will not scale and keep up with your allies who are casting higher level spells.

Extra spells can be rather useful especially at that level... of course it only operates purely at DM consent (what you just have 12 hours? And those ingredients?) so if the DM keeps allows you to take off days to set that up its the DM's own mess.

Its like Crafting feats used to be, powerful sure but actually pointless to "balance" or whatever because they are sharply limited when not simply theorycraft so touting it as powerful is rather disingenuous if you aren't including the all important context of actually getting it going.

One of those options that actually screams "this is what the BBEG does" more then anything to me.

[Ferrin33]

You're free to rule otherwise (I agree that your way it seems to make more sense), but Mearls has actually responded to this question here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509866074775379968) and here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/509944870274740224).


Then he should have written the book better, as "After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep." is pretty clear.