Level 1 Paragon Human Paragon Human?

[Cybris75]

I'm contemplating playing a level 1 human in an ECL 16 game, giving him the Paragon Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) template. Assume DM approval with an LA of +15.

Character background would a promised child, destined to save the world (doesn't actually have to be true).
He's out adventuring because he wants to help the helpless and explore the human condition.
I may be allowed to give him Leadership because it fits the fluff.

My question: what would such a character actually be able to do? I can't decide whether to give him a level of commoner, cleric (cause or pantheon), factotum, monk or paragon human (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm). Would adding the Saint template be overkill?

I will need to protect his measly hp, but otherwise I have no idea what to do with 1 level of classfeatures and lots of fat bonuses.

[Studoku]

You'd be able to UMD things pretty well. Take UMD as your Adaptive Learning Skill and you'd have 4 ranks, a +10 competence bonus and at least 25 charisma.

[prufock]

Human Paragon class would give you basically nothing useful at level 1. To protect your hit points, you could use the Crusader + Stone Power feat combo, though at those levels the bonus HP you're getting will be all but negligible. If you're willing to change race to Elan, a psion with lots of power points should be able to take a few good hits, but that's a pretty precious resource all the same. If you get Leadership, have a very HP heavy cleric cohort with shield other, and be a binder with improved binding and bind Dahlver Nar for Shield Self. The cleric should take 3/4 of the damage dealt to you.

[sideswipe]

delay death, more delaying death type shenanigans and some delay death just in case. find a way to stop hp damage from killing you until you can fast heal it away. then just worry about saves...... wow a 20ish in most saves at level 15.... its ok i guess......

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not a good idea. You'll have something like 30 HP, amazing SR and saving throws, but let's say you get breathed on by a green dragon. A Mature Adult Green Dragon is CR 16, and deals 14d6 damage with its breath attack (14-84, average 49). You won't have any resistance to it, your SR won't do any good, and even if you make the save it's extremely likely to take you into the negatives. Plus if it has metabreath feats from the Draconomicon (Maximize Breath, Clinging Breath, etc.) you'll be looking at an automatic 42+21+10+5 damage even if you make the save, so your character would be automatically killed. This is just one example of the many, many things that exist in this game that would automatically take you out due to your low HP.

Furthermore, with only one level a single lucky hit from a Wight or similar automatically kills you. Not only that, but you'll come back as a Paragon Wight that your party will have to deal with!

No, don't do this. Make a character who's going to be useful, who's capable of contributing his fair share to the party's success. The character you've described looks more like an NPC that a party would be burdened with protecting than a PC.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Buy some items that buff hitpoints. I cant immediately think of any, beyond spell trigger items for spells that give temporary hitpoints (and many of those are hit points per hit dice, which are useless for you), but there must be some. Also, make sure you're always death warded or something similar. Reason being, any cleric you meet is probably going to have at least ten hd on you, which means that any holy word equivalent that hits you kills you, no save. Sure, you have your SR, but given that that'll be hd+25, an enemy cleric will have a pretty good chance of getting through that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Holy Word and its equivalents are not death effects. The only defenses are SR, high HD or something that negates [Sonic] effects (immunity to sonic damage isn't enough).
Given that some outsiders get those as at-will spell-likes and they have a better than even chance of getting through your SR...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Holy Word and its equivalents are not death effects. The only defenses are SR, high HD or something that negates [Sonic] effects (immunity to sonic damage isn't enough).
Given that some outsiders get those as at-will spell-likes and they have a better than even chance of getting through your SR...

His SR will be 40+class level (CR +25, and the template itself gives +15 CR), and a natural 20 on a caster level check doesn't automatically succeed.

[Fouredged Sword]

Will he let you take epic feats to go with that epic template? If so, take epic toughness with both of your starting feats. That will start you off with enough HP to survive. If you can talk him into flaws as well, then starting with 150hp doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[sleepyphoenixx]

His SR will be 40+class level (CR +25, and the template itself gives +15 CR), and a natural 20 on a caster level check doesn't automatically succeed.

Huh. In the ELH it's base creatures CR +25. The SRD has Paragon creatures CR +25. That's a pretty big difference.

[Slipperychicken]

Put him in a party with the Beguiler* Beguiler**/Beguiler*** and his Beguiler* familiar?


*Beguiler Rat race
**Beguiler Base Class
***Beguiler Prestige Class

[Segev]

Take your first level as Ardent and pick up a psicrystal. Your Paragon template gives you +15 to your manifester level. With a +15 to your human maximum manifesting stat of 18, you'll have a 33 Int. A 16th level manifester with a 33 int gets +88 bonus power points. That gives you a total of 90 power points at level 1.

Take the ACF that lets you customize your mantles, and pick up a mantle devoted to martyrdom or pain. Customize it to include Vigor and Share Pain. Learn both of them. Ardents can learn any powers they have the ML to spend the PP on, and you have an ML sufficient to manifest up to 7th level powers.

Share Pain with your psicrystal every day. That's 3 pp for 16 hours of protection. Share it with your Psicrystal on yourself, so you have now effectively pooled your pp and its.

Manifest Vigor for 16 pp whenever you might be in danger of losing hp. Share it with your psicrystal. Both of you will gain +80 hp from this. Because you are sharing half your damage, this is an effective +160 hp to your combined pool. That should keep you alive against most hp damage, especially since you can top off with an action.

[Segev]

***Beguiler Prestige Class

There's a PrC?

[Slipperychicken]

There's a PrC?

I could have sworn I heard of it before, but my search-fu is failing me right now.

[dextercorvia]

Ardents can learn any powers they have the ML to spend the PP on, and you have an ML sufficient to manifest up to 7th level powers.


This is only true after level 1. At level 1 they have to pick level 1 powers.

[Segev]

This is only true after level 1. At level 1 they have to pick level 1 powers.

Oh. Well, then Psion would work just fine, if Ardent isn't your thing. Take Vigor, and then pick up a psicrown of Share Pain.

[Extra Anchovies]

Put him in a party with the Beguiler* Beguiler**/Beguiler*** and his Beguiler* familiar?


*Beguiler Rat race
**Beguiler Base Class
***Beguiler Prestige Class

Oooh! Oooh! And also a Half-Ogre Mage Ogre Mage of the Arcane Order!
(Half-Ogre Mage)(Ogre)(Mage of the Arcane Order)

[Rubik]

You'll want to find a way to make someone or something take the damage for you. A good way to do this is to take levels in either the ghost savage progression or the fiend of possession PrC. You can also become undead (such as necropolitan) and cast Haunt Shift via a scroll to possess an object of your choice. That way, you can use your makeshift body as ablative armor and not have to worry so much about your measley low HD.

Whatever you do, go in as a caster or manifester. That +15 to CL/ML will come in handy for helping you overcome your otherwise crippling LA.

If you want some high-op cheese, you could always gain HD in other ways, such as purchasing a soul crystal of both Fusion and Astral Seed. Use Fusion on a creature with a lot more HD than you, then manifest Astral Seed while Fusion'd. You'll gestalt yourself with the other creature permanently, gaining more HD in the process (whether class levels or racial HD is up to you). You could also purchase a thought bottle and some scrolls of Curse of Lycanthropy and Remove Curse. Contract several forms of lycanthropy, use the thought bottle to store your XP total, and then Remove Curse. Use the thought bottle to restore your XP total. Voila, several levels gained in very little time.

[Inevitability]

Look at page 156 in the ELH. It pretty much sets the paragon template's LA at +11.

[ShurikVch]

Isn't 15 a bit too much for Paragon? (In the ELH it was only 11...)

Anyway, since Adaptive Learning is your only CF, then main point of your character will be skills, feats, and WbL


You'll want to find a way to make someone or something take the damage for you. Pick UMD as one of your class skills. In equipment take wands of Desecrate, Animate Dead, and Bloodstone's frightful joining (from Dragon #348).
Use wands to make Bloodhulk Giant
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98668.jpg
It's large, 14 HD, 196 hp, and mindless.
Creating required 350 gp of black onyx, large corpse, and blood of three recently slain large creatures
Wand of BFJ 24 CL allow to posses it whole day unless you wish to end it early

[Feint's End]

You'll want to find a way to make someone or something take the damage for you. A good way to do this is to take levels in either the ghost savage progression or the fiend of possession PrC. You can also become undead (such as necropolitan) and cast Haunt Shift via a scroll to possess an object of your choice. That way, you can use your makeshift body as ablative armor and not have to worry so much about your measley low HD.

Whatever you do, go in as a caster or manifester. That +15 to CL/ML will come in handy for helping you overcome your otherwise crippling LA.

If you want some high-op cheese, you could always gain HD in other ways, such as purchasing a soul crystal of both Fusion and Astral Seed. Use Fusion on a creature with a lot more HD than you, then manifest Astral Seed while Fusion'd. You'll gestalt yourself with the other creature permanently, gaining more HD in the process (whether class levels or racial HD is up to you). You could also purchase a thought bottle and some scrolls of Curse of Lycanthropy and Remove Curse. Contract several forms of lycanthropy, use the thought bottle to store your XP total, and then Remove Curse. Use the thought bottle to restore your XP total. Voila, several levels gained in very little time.

The boost to CL/ML only applies to slas and not spells though. Also it says Psionics (sp) which refers to some creatures printed before the release of the EPH and not to actual psionics. It applies to slas flavoured as being psionic (such as the Psionics (sp) found in the mind flayer entry in the MM1).

Your DM might rule otherwise but as I see neither RAW nor RAI support it being applied to actual ML (which it doesn't call out because as I said ... it refers to slas) or SL. Also you don't actually have a higher SL but rather are treated as having it for the purpose of casting your spelllike abilities.


edit:
Necessary quotes


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) or Psionics (Sp): if the
base creature has spell-like abilities, it gains +15 to its
caster level to use those abilities.
Psionics (Sp): At will—charm
monster (DC 17), detect thoughts (DC
15), levitate, plane shift, suggestion (DC
16). Effective caster level 8th. The
save DCs are Charisma-based.

Bold added for better understanding

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, so if it boosts SLA caster level by 15... play a warlock, maybe? They use SLAs by RAW, and Eldritch Blast damage is, IIRC, determined by caster level.

[Rubik]

The boost to CL/ML only applies to slas and not spells though. Also it says Psionics (sp) which refers to some creatures printed before the release of the EPH and not to actual psionics. It applies to slas flavoured as being psionic (such as the Psionics (sp) found in the mind flayer entry in the MM1).

Your DM might rule otherwise but as I see neither RAW nor RAI support it being applied to actual ML (which it doesn't call out because as I said ... it refers to slas) or SL. Also you don't actually have a higher SL but rather are treated as having it for the purpose of casting your spelllike abilities.Very true. So I suppose that only manifesting classes (with the Magic Mantle) or classes that grant spell-like abilities (such as binder) would be boosted by this.

[Feint's End]

Wait, so if it boosts SLA caster level by 15... play a warlock, maybe? They use SLAs by RAW, and Eldritch Blast damage is, IIRC, determined by caster level.

Eldritch Blast sadly is determined by Level so no increased damage here. You have an invocation so that would be boosted but not sure that is worthwile with any first level 1.


Very true. So I suppose that only manifesting classes (with the Magic Mantle) or classes that grant spell-like abilities (such as binder) would be boosted by this.

As for the manifesting part. I'm positive that you could in theory boost them if they count as slas but I'm not sure if you get any bonus pp since your ML isn't actually higher than 1. I think that it kind of works like overchannel (I added a quote + Emphasize in my last post) in that it just boosts the CL for casting that certain SLA.

The only question is which class gets good slas at first which scale well with CL. IIRC Binder isn't getting much from CL in general.

[Baroknik]

I would personally go a (relatively) mundane route, since the CL/ML boost only applies to SLAs. One thing to note is the big boost on melee/thrown weapon damage. With an inherent +20 to damage and +25 to hit, these seem prime for abuse. With those you are more likely to hit than pretty much any other level 16 character in combat (discounting always-hit spells). PA will be extremely useful later, as you can basically always convert your full BAB. While that may make an übercharger seem like a good call, with your piddly hp, melee may best be avoided.
My suggestion then? Look into throwing weapons. Though it wouldn't come online for awhile, you could even do something like...
Decisive Strike Monk 1/Factotum 8
Take a full round action to throw 1 shuriken for 2d2+40+2xSTR, then cunning surge (eventually) for more attacks. This comes online at level 1, and gets huge at level 9. An added bonus -- Arcane Dilettante casts as SLA's!

[dextercorvia]

So, with the Paragon template you can have a Shadowcaster whose abilities get worse if it levels too much.

[Bluydee]

Paragon is a 11 LA class, therefore you actually have 5 levels. I suggest the ghost progression class.

[Rubik]

Paragon is a 11 LA class, therefore you actually have 5 levels. I suggest the ghost progression class.Only 4/5 levels, though. That last one is...forgettable.

[Forrestfire]

Depending on how the DM's interpretation of transparency works, the Paragon template may actually increase ML. After all, "the manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm). If the template also applies to PLAs on account of applying to SLAs, then Ardent is probably still one of the best options.

If that does work (and assuming the DM goes with LA +11 instead of +15), I'd probably do something like Ardent 2/Ghost 3/Paragon 11. This gets you, among other things:


Ardent ML 17, so you can have a 9th-level power grabbed at level 2. Pick one, there are lots of neat ones.
CR 19 (2 from Ghost, 2 from class levels, 15 from Paragon), so Spell Resistance 44
Rejuvenation (and since you're level 16, you never fail to respawn)
Incorporeality (make sure to get the updated rules from the Tome of Battle or Monster Manual 3)
Effective hit dice of 4 for the purposes of being Turned (get some ways to protect from that)
Movement speed of fly 90ft (perfect)
Undead immunities.
A Lesser Ghost Power. I recommend Telekinesis, because it's probably going to be your main attack power. It's got CL 27, which means:

Violent thrusting 15 objects (up to a total of 375 pounds) whose starting positions are close together 1,480ft of you. Each attack has a range of 270 feet. You're a very snipey character.
These are called out as thrown in the spell. You get +20 to the damage roll on each one. I suggest getting a set of Scythes, for that x4 crit modifier. With 15 attacks, you're likely to hit a crit at some point, and four times +20 is a lot.
Paragon gives a +13 insight bonus to Special Attacks. Hey look, telekinesis is listed as a Special Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)! Between the +25 luck bonus and that, you're not missing. Ever.
You can open the fight with this, or wait to violent thrust until the turn before your telekinesis comes back online. Using the combat maneuver mode won't end it, so it's something useful to do at least.

[Segev]

The problem with ghost is that it seems to fly in the face of the whole "destined child" thing he had planned as part of the character's backstory. Ghosts are (un)dead, after all. Not quite human anymore, at the very least.

[Forrestfire]

Ah, that's a good point. Still, it's an option, at least. Maybe completely refluff it and weld an item of Forced Manifestation to the character :smalltongue:

(Really, there's a whole lot of useful options on the table if you've got five levels to play with instead of 1. Telekinesis just interacts so hilariously well with Paragon that I had to suggest it).

[Rubik]

The problem with ghost is that it seems to fly in the face of the whole "destined child" thing he had planned as part of the character's backstory. Ghosts are (un)dead, after all. Not quite human anymore, at the very least.Just take Human Heritage and Ghostly Grasp. You're not actually a ghost -- you can just phase through things at will, and your other powers are just manifestations of your destiny.

[Forrestfire]

manifestations of your destiny.

That was terrible :smalltongue::smallamused:

I guess Turn Undead would work by channeling positive energy in a way that completely coincidentally interferes with your ᴅᴇsᴛɪɴʏ powers? If they turn you hard enough, you phase out and have to Doctor Manhattan yourself back together at home?

EDIT: Hey wait... Chosen, physically Superior child, with a destiny to save the world (maybe by defeating some Big Bad), powerful psychic powers, and telekinesis. Someone get this kid (http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616)) a Mighty Arms graft, stat! I may have binge-read the entirety of Cable and Deadpool recently...

[Rubik]

That was terrible :smalltongue::smallamused:Thank you ever so.


I guess Turn Undead would work by channeling positive energy in a way that completely coincidentally interferes with your ᴅᴇsᴛɪɴʏ powers? If they turn you hard enough, you phase out and have to Doctor Manhattan yourself back together at home?Nope! Remember, Human Heritage feat. Turn Undead doesn't work on Humanoids. Just like Hide From Undead and Command Undead don't.

And you're immune to almost anything that targets and harms typical Humanoids because of all of those totally-not-Undead immunities you've got going.

[Forrestfire]

*Looks up feat*

Whoa, that's a lot better than I was remembering it as. Shame it doesn't give you a Constitution score to go with the Humanoid type.

[Rubik]

*Looks up feat*

Whoa, that's a lot better than I was remembering it as. Shame it doesn't give you a Constitution score to go with the Humanoid type.That's what Faerie Mysteries Initiate is for. Int to HP. And it's difficult but not impossible to grab unholy toughness for Cha to HP. And if you do it right, you can get the benefits of various other bonuses (such as being ghostified by being murdered via a Necromancy spell by a dread necromancer with Corpse Crafter near a Desecrated altar).

That, and you'll be inhabiting something else which takes damage for you. Use its Con score instead.

[Sith_Happens]

EDIT: Hey wait... Chosen, physically Superior child, with a destiny to save the world (maybe by defeating some Big Bad), powerful psychic powers, and telekinesis. Someone get this kid (http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616)) a Mighty Arms graft, stat! I may have binge-read the entirety of Cable and Deadpool recently...

Or, you know, he's Danny Phantom.

[Segev]

Or, you know, he's Danny Phantom.

His parents built a very strange machine?