Rogue

[Spacehamster]

So just got my players handbook and read through most of it, but wondering how well rogue's keep up with others in the party when they only get one attack per round, two if dual wielding. That just feels a bit lacklustre at higher levels I would imagine? Or am I missing some powerful perk they have? :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[EvilAnagram]

So just got my players handbook and read through most of it, but wondering how well rogue's keep up with others in the party when they only get one attack per round, two if dual wielding. That just feels a bit lacklustre at higher levels I would imagine? Or am I missing some powerful perk they have? :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

Sneak Attack turns their one attack into the most powerful physical attack in the game.

Attacking with advantage to drop 11d6+Dex? And you only have to hit once? Yes, please.

Their other class features are awesome, too.

[Spacehamster]

Sneak attack turns their one attack into the most powerful physical attack in the game.

Oh yeah its multiplied with crits now right? Were thinking a lvl 9 rogue with assassins path 11 fighter with champion path and dual wielding and archery as combat styles. Oh also does additional attacks add a extra attack to offhand weapon? Saw nothing that said it does or does not.

[EvilAnagram]

Oh also does additional attacks add a extra attack to offhand weapon? Saw nothing that said it does or does not.

It does not. The offhand attack uses your bonus action. You can use your separate attacks with either weapon, though.

[Spacehamster]

It does not. The offhand attack uses your bonus action. You can use your separate attacks with either weapon, though.

Okay so the build I thought about would give me 3 mainhand attacks 1 offhand and 5d6 sneak attack with 19-20 crit. Sounds pretty good. :)

[BW022]

Most martial and spell caster cantrips get an extra attack at 5th-level.

A fighter with a sword and shield would be two attacks doing, 1d8+3 each. 2d8+6 (avg. 15). A two-handed sword would be 4d6+6 (avg. 20). A 5th-level rogue would do 1d8+3+3d6 (sneak attack) (avg. 18).

The fighter would need to hit both times, while the rogue likely has advantage on his attacks and likely a better chance of hitting. Two weapon fighting would still have better damage potential for the rogue (but likely only in melee with someone 'flanking' or in special cases such as incapacitated, blinded, darkness, etc. foes). Rogue obviously has less armor and hit points, but has greater options with mobility and stealth -- dash, disengage, and hide as bonus actions may mean that opponents can't find/reach/target him. Fighter is obviously the better blocker.

Overall... its fairly even. The rogue is likely the better opportunist, with the ability to use ambushes, move to rear ranks and go after casters, etc. Melee martial types are likely the better blockers, better at taking out lots of little creatures, etc. Rogues also have lots more out-of-combat skills and abilities -- locks, traps, deception, stealth, etc.

[DCraw]

Okay so the build I thought about would give me 3 mainhand attacks 1 offhand and 5d6 sneak attack with 19-20 crit. Sounds pretty good. :)

Not quite. You only get Sneak attack damage once, so the first attack that hits will get the +5d6 damage (more if it happens to crit), but any subsequent hits will only do their normal damage. For a rogue, multiple attacks only really reduce the chance that all of your attacks fail to hit. Subsequent hits will do normal damage, but that pales compared to Sneak Attack (which only applies once).

[Rilak]

Pure Rogue is somewhat hard in direct combat due to requiring using two weapons in order to have more chances to use sneak attack. Their DPS does stack up although multi-classing a Rogue has many opportunities if all you want is damage. For example:
Fighter, extra attack, increased crit range, action surge can all help scoring sneak attacks. 6 levels is probably enough (going too deep costs opportunity to gain more SA dice).
Barbarian is viable (finesse weapons are required, but you are allowed to use STR and still sneak attack). Gives advantage on all attacks starting at level 2, extra attack at 5. Good survivability. Danger Sense is also great together with Evasion.
Paladin is an amazing Assassin. Divine smite is doubled on a crit, and you score auto-crits on surprise rounds (with 2+1 attacks, you spend 3 spell slots but probably kill BBEG). You also have the choice to only use the smites when you crit. 5 levels gives 6 smites per day although you probably want 8 levels in Paladin because 6 and 7 are so good.

[Spacehamster]

Not quite. You only get Sneak attack damage once, so the first attack that hits will get the +5d6 damage (more if it happens to crit), but any subsequent hits will only do their normal damage. For a rogue, multiple attacks only really reduce the chance that all of your attacks fail to hit. Subsequent hits will do normal damage, but that pales compared to Sneak Attack (which only applies once).

Still get 4 attacks that are guaranteed crits when you surprise your foe. :) thanks to assassinate perk

[Occasional Sage]

Or am I missing some powerful perk they have? :)


Expertise. You missed Expertise.

Or are you only concerned about combat?

[Spacehamster]

Expertise. You missed Expertise.

Or are you only concerned about combat?

Yeah expertise is awesome, but also want to be able to hold my own in combat when stealth is not possible. :) thinking 9 assassin, 11 champion would be nice amount of combat and skill outside combat. :)

[TheOOB]

Level 20 fighter with a greatsword, 20 str, and GWF deals 13.33 damage per hit, for 53.32 damage a round on average(assuming hits)

A Level 20 warlock with the invocation that boost EB damage deals 42 damage a round

A level 2 20 Rogue with a dagger deals 42.5 damage if they sneak attack. With two shortswords that boosted to 47.

If a rogue can consistently get sneak attacks, their damage is fairly consistent with the other characters damage output. They have to work a bit harder for it, and they can't rely on it, but the rogue has a lot to offer the party aside from damage output.

[Spacehamster]

Level 20 fighter with a greatsword, 20 str, and GWF deals 13.33 damage per hit, for 53.32 damage a round on average(assuming hits)

A Level 20 warlock with the invocation that boost EB damage deals 42 damage a round

A level 2 Rogue with a dagger deals 42.5 damage if they sneak attack. With two shortswords that boosted to 47.

If a rogue can consistently get sneak attacks, their damage is fairly consistent with the other characters damage output. They have to work a bit harder for it, and they can't rely on it, but the rogue has a lot to offer the party aside from damage output.

I guess you mean a lvl 20 rogue and not a lvl 2? :)

[BRC]

I guess you mean a lvl 20 rogue and not a lvl 2? :)

Nope, Level 2.

At level 20 Rogues sneak past the fourth wall and steal their own character sheets.

[Yuki Akuma]

Expertise can be pretty good in combat, actually - it makes Rogues (and Bards, who also get Expertise) the best shovers and grapplers in the game if they take Athletics and put an okay score in Strength.

A Rogue who ignores Dexterity in the favour of Strength and takes the Grappler feat is a force to be reckoned with.

[Spacehamster]

Expertise can be pretty good in combat, actually - it makes Rogues (and Bards, who also get Expertise) the best shovers and grapplers in the game if they take Athletics and put an okay score in Strength.

A Rogue who ignores Dexterity in the favour of Strength and takes the Grappler feat is a force to be reckoned with.

Sounds cool, picturing my rogue fighter character as a very stealthy assassin type that can even when discovered do a stand up fight with his blades. Thinking to put the expertise on stealthy and stealy skills mostly. :)

[Chubbs Malone]

Hi Spacehamster! (awesome name btw)

Rogues are one of my favorite classes in 5e, I highly recommend playing one! I feel like the best way to give you an idea of the class is to just list a bunch of highlights and low lights. Let me know if you have any questions!

Highlights
1. Sneak Attack allows you to produce very reliable and consistent damage. You may not be able to match the insane 1 round burst damage from other classes; but you will be much more reliable throughout a day's worth of encounters.

2. Rogues are exceptional at avoiding damage; literally every abilities you gain while leveling is defensive in nature and will help you avoid damage all together or reduce it significantly (Uncanny Dodge @ lvl 5, Evasion @ lvl 7, Reliable Talent @ 11, Blindsense @ 14, Slippery Mind @ 15, Elusive @ lvl 18).

3. Cunning Action is a great addition to the class, it allows for a lot of flavor and choices (if you are creative).

4. As many have said, Rogues offer a lot of tools outside of combat; picking locks, finding/disarming traps, pick pocketing, deception, scouting, setting ambushes, stealthing, etc.

Low Lights
1. You are VERY squishy before level 5, so be careful!

2. Cunning Action pushes most Rogues into playing more of a ranged combat style. If you decide to dual wield, you end up having to chose between Cunning Action or taking a 2nd attack (each requires a bonus action, and you only get 1 per turn). This has lead to a lot of Rogues play Halflings that just hang back and constantly try to hide behind their allies. (lame, boring tactic imo)

3. If you want to play a character that's really good at scouting ahead in dungeons or dark terrain, you pretty much get pigeonwhole'd into playing something with darkvision. This really isn't a Rogue specific gripe, but it's something that often comes up for Rogue players.

[Chubbs Malone]

Also, I just wanted to emphasize, RELIABLE TALENT is absolutely amazing. This feature brings so much great flavor to the class and helps set Rogues apart.

[MustacheFart]

Honestly, it depends on what you want to do with the rogue but if it's to be strong in combat I would suggest only sticking it out up to Rogue level 4, picking assassin for the auto-crit deal, and then getting the hell out of Rogue.

I could see a build such as Assassin Rogue 4/Warlock 2/Shadow Monk 14 as being especially potent and deadly.

[Spacehamster]

So now my idea for my odd rougish character is set, will be a half orc for the extra weapon die on crit, he will dual wield a rapier +short sword and have a heavy crossbow for ranged. Will take 11 levels of fighter(champion) for 3 attacks per round and 19-20 crits and two weapon styles(dw and archery). And 9 levels rogue(assassin) will take athletics, thief tools, stealth and sleight of hand as expertise skills. As for use of feats im thinking of taking two or three feats, crossbow expert, sharpshooter and dual wielder.

This should lead to 3d8 + 10d6 + str mod on the surprise backstab and if my other 3 attacks that turn hits while the enemy is still surprised it will be 3d8 + modifiers for mh and 2d6 + modifiers for oh. And when I cant get in backstabs I should still do decently due to 3mh attacks and 1oh and bigger then normal crit range. Plus still be useful outside combat.

Oh and background I choose outlander so my proficient skills are; athletics, acrobatics, survival, intimidation, perception, stealth, sleight of hand + prof with thief tools, disquise kit and poison kit.

So does this sound like a okay build to you guys? Not after ultimate optimization just want it to be fun, functioning and useful both in and out of combat. :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[Yuki Akuma]

Dual wielding a rapier and short sword is pointless - without the feat, you can only dual wield two light weapons, and with the feat you don't need to wield light weapons at all so why bother with the short sword?

[Yagyujubei]

Dude dps totally fine....if you go pure rogue with the assassin sub-class, that means that on your surprise round you're doing 2d8+20d6+5 x 2 at level 17 (176 dmg) which stands up just fine to other dps classes. Yeah, they can save out of it but the DC is going to be quite high.

or go rogue 17 and 3 in fighter to get the crit range. there are a million ways to get advantage in this edition so you'll be sneak attacking like a fiend.

You can't under estimate the usefulness of reliable talent and expertise. a) reliable talent means you will roll a 10 minimum for initiative checks for the rest of the game (Initiative counts as a dexterity check), and b) the lowest you can possibly roll on any check in one of your 4 expertise skills will be an 18 plus your ability mod. that's fricking insane, presumably by then you'll have at least a +4 in dex so say hi to a 22 minimum on every sneak/acrobatics check forever more. Thats so baller for RP purposes.

not to mention cunning maneuver, dodge, blindsense, slippery mind, evasion...

seriously rogues are totally amazing, I'm kinda sad I didn't roll one

[Spacehamster]

Dual wielding a rapier and short sword is pointless - without the feat, you can only dual wield two light weapons, and with the feat you don't need to wield light weapons at all so why bother with the short sword?

Thought without the feat you can use only a light in offhand and a non light in mainhand and with feat you got rid of the light offhand requirements? And if thats the case ill just use rapier in mh until I get the feat. :)

[Yagyujubei]

Thought without the feat you can use only a light in offhand and a non light in mainhand and with feat you got rid of the light offhand requirements? And if thats the case ill just use rapier in mh until I get the feat. :)

naw has to be two light weapons:

"when you take the attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand"

phb.195

in which case, either use one rapier, or two rapiers when you get the feat. there's no point in using a short sword ever.

[Cambrian]

2. Cunning Action pushes most Rogues into playing more of a ranged combat style. If you decide to dual wield, you end up having to chose between Cunning Action or taking a 2nd attack (each requires a bonus action, and you only get 1 per turn). This has lead to a lot of Rogues play Halflings that just hang back and constantly try to hide behind their allies. (lame, boring tactic imo)While that's probably easiest to do, assuming a DM isn't a stickler with Hide, most other races can still use terrain to perform a similar trick. Saying you can't hide when someone knows roughly where you are ignores every gunfight scene ever. Taking cover, popping out, and sneaking around to flank is reasonable even when an opponent knows where you are-- the intent is just to gain advantage on the attack, not have the opponent forget you are present.

Hopefully most DMs facilitate cinematic and creative combat, rather than mechanical and predictable.


3. If you want to play a character that's really good at scouting ahead in dungeons or dark terrain, you pretty much get pigeonwhole'd into playing something with darkvision. This really isn't a Rogue specific gripe, but it's something that often comes up for Rogue players.Beyond that I worry that a Warlock with a Pact of the Chain can completely outclass the rogue as a scout until they can get reliable talent at Level 11.

[MustacheFart]

Beyond that I worry that a Warlock with a Pact of the Chain can completely outclass the rogue as a scout until they can get reliable talent at Level 11.

Honestly, as far as scouting is concerned, you could build a much better scout (than a rogue) by taking levels in Way of the Shadow Monk and Warlock. Teleporting from shadow to shadow, becoming invisible in shadows, dodge, seeing in (magical)darkness, etc etc.

Using a pet to scout for you has risks. DM's sometimes tend to be harsher on pets than player characters so it can be better to be the actual one in there sneaking around.

[Spacehamster]

Honestly, as far as scouting is concerned, you could build a much better scout (than a rogue) by taking levels in Way of the Shadow Monk and Warlock. Teleporting from shadow to shadow, becoming invisible in shadows, dodge, seeing in (magical)darkness, etc etc.

Using a pet to scout for you has risks. DM's sometimes tend to be harsher on pets than player characters so it can be better to be the actual one in there sneaking around.

I'm curious, does sneak attack work with unarmed attacks? Says light, finesse and ranged weapons so guess not?

[MustacheFart]

I'm curious, does sneak attack work with unarmed attacks? Says light, finesse and ranged weapons so guess not?

It's up to DM call whether or not unarmed strikes are considered light and/or finesse weapons. Considering monks get the ability to use their dex in place of str you can make a good argument for it.

However, Monks can also use monk weapons such as the shortsword which is light and is a finesse weapon. So with a hard dm you wouldn't have sneak on your bonus unarmed attacks but your main attacks you would and you would still get those unarmed bonus attacks.

[Hytheter]

I'm curious, does sneak attack work with unarmed attacks? Says light, finesse and ranged weapons so guess not?

Sneak Attack only specifies Finesse or Ranged; the weapons don't have to be light, and not all light weapons qualify.

But unarmed strikes are neither light or finesse weapons. Monks treat them as finesse weapons though, so if you multiclass into Monk you can do an unarmed Sneak Attack.
edit: actually upon close inspection, Monks don't actually treat them as finesse weapons, though it has the same effect. So by RAW I just lied to you, the unarmed sneak attack won't work. Sorry. But if your dm is generous you could make a case for it, and its certainly logical flavour wise if you're going a shadow monk/rogue sort of deal.

[Spacehamster]

Sneak Attack only specifies Finesse or Ranged; the weapons don't have to be light, and not all light weapons qualify.

But unarmed strikes are neither light or finesse weapons. Monks treat them as finesse weapons though, so if you multiclass into Monk you can do an unarmed Sneak Attack.

Ah cool thanks. :)

[Hytheter]

Ah cool thanks. :)

Sorry, important correction; I just edited my above post.

tl;dr I was wrong.

[Person_Man]

In my opinion the Rogue is the best non-full caster class. Solid damage output throughout all 20 levels (especially the Assassin Rogue), excellent Skills, extremely mobile starting level 2, very tanky at mid levels when you get Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

It's flaws are the same as non-magical classes in every edition. Spells can replace Skills in many situations (Pass Without Trace, Fly, Charm, Knock, etc) so beyond low levels they're not really useful unless you're using them repeatedly throughout the game day. (Which is likely for Perception and Stealth, but not much else). They always target AC, and not Ability Scores, and thus you can't choose to target an enemy's weakest defense, and therefore have a lower chance of success on your attacks. They don't deal status effects, which are typically more effective then strait damage against enemies that can't be killed in one round. And while their damage output is above average, its not effective against lots of mooks (where a single area of effect spell could wipe them all out, a Rogue can only kill 1 per round) or when a spellcaster can leverage multiple Summons (Animate Dead, Conjure Whatever, Simulacrum).

[MustacheFart]

In my opinion the Rogue is the best non-full caster class. Solid damage output throughout all 20 levels (especially the Assassin Rogue), excellent Skills, extremely mobile starting level 2, very tanky at mid levels when you get Evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

It's flaws are the same as non-magical classes in every edition. Spells can replace Skills in many situations (Pass Without Trace, Fly, Charm, Knock, etc) so beyond low levels they're not really useful unless you're using them repeatedly throughout the game day. (Which is likely for Perception and Stealth, but not much else). They always target AC, and not Ability Scores, and thus you can't choose to target an enemy's weakest defense, and therefore have a lower chance of success on your attacks. They don't deal status effects, which are typically more effective then strait damage against enemies that can't be killed in one round. And while their damage output is above average, its not effective against lots of mooks (where a single area of effect spell could wipe them all out, a Rogue can only kill 1 per round) or when a spellcaster can leverage multiple Summons (Animate Dead, Conjure Whatever, Simulacrum).

I would agree that it is one of the best non-full caster classes. However, while that may be the case, as you've illustrated, they can be outdone rather easily by a multiclass build.

If multiclassing isn't allowed then I would go rogue for the scout/stealth type. If multiclassing is allowed then I would go Shadow Monk/Warlock with possibly 3-4 levels of Assassin rogue mixed in for the auto-crit on surprise rounds/advantage on attacks.

[Person_Man]

I would agree that it is one of the best non-full caster classes. However, while that may be the case, as you've illustrated, they can be outdone rather easily by a multiclass build.

If multiclassing isn't allowed then I would go rogue for the scout/stealth type. If multiclassing is allowed then I would go Shadow Monk/Warlock with possibly 3-4 levels of Assassin rogue mixed in for the auto-crit on surprise rounds/advantage on attacks.

Yup.

A lot depends on the DM though, and the number of encounters you face between Short Rests and Long Rests.

For example, Pass Without Trace (which the Shadow Monk gets at level 3) gives you a +10 to Stealth to you and your allies within 30 feet for up to an hour (with Concentration) and you can't be tracked. That's basically auto-success on Stealth for you, and probably your allies. But if your DM only allows 1 Short Rest and 1 Long Rest per game day, then the Monk is probably screwed, because he only gets a small amount of Ki points per Short/Long Rest, and all of his offensive abilities and utility abilities depend on it.

So if your DM allows 2-4 Short Rests per day, then yeah, go with Warlock, Monk, or some kind of Warlock and/or Monk and/or Assassin Rogue multiclass build. But if you're DM is putting you through the world's largest dungeon with random monster encounters every time you try to rest, then pure Rogue is the way to go.

[MustacheFart]

So if your DM allows 2-4 Short Rests per day, then yeah, go with Warlock, Monk, or some kind of Warlock and/or Monk and/or Assassin Rogue multiclass build. But if you're DM is putting you through the world's largest dungeon with random monster encounters every time you try to rest, then pure Rogue is the way to go.

I would pretty much agree with the exception of a dip into warlock. What you would get for only 2 levels of warlock would be very beneficial to a Rogue and wouldn't be dependent off long rests/short rests.

[Rummy]

I would pretty much agree with the exception of a dip into warlock. What you would get for only 2 levels of warlock would be very beneficial to a Rogue and wouldn't be dependent off long rests/short rests.

Also, a one level dip in Fighter is definitely worth it for the fighting style.

[Person_Man]

I would pretty much agree with the exception of a dip into warlock. What you would get for only 2 levels of warlock would be very beneficial to a Rogue and wouldn't be dependent off long rests/short rests.

That's true. The trade-off is that you're potentially delaying your access to Assassinate, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge, which are all awesome.

On a related note, does anyone have a damage per round for each class analysis handy? My understanding is that area of effect spells provide the best damage output, assuming that you can target 2+ enemies with them, with the obvious limitation of having a limited number per Short/Long Rest.

But just listening to the comments on this and other forums, it seems like DMs tend to decide on their preferred Rest allowances pretty early on and don't vary them them very often. So it shouldn't be that hard to create a chart showing the highest at-will damage vs. highest Short Rest damage vs. highest Long Rest damage, so that players can choose from them accordingly.

[MustacheFart]

That's true. The trade-off is that you're potentially delaying your access to Assassinate, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge, which are all awesome.

Depends on the order the levels are taken of course. You could hit Rogue 3 before going into warlock to at least pick up assassinate. Or hit warlock at the end. I'm just not sure I would entirely stay pure rogue.

As to the numbers, I agree that would be pretty useful.

[LtDarien]

Also, since Sneak Attack can work once per turn, if the Rogue can use its reaction anything close to reliably, its easily outstrips the other martial classes, damage-wise.

And with Thief's Reflexes, a Rogue could potentially do Sneak Attack five times during the first round of combat. That would take a lot of luck and maneuvering, but it's conceivable.

[MustacheFart]

And with Thief's Reflexes, a Rogue could potentially do Sneak Attack five times during the first round of combat. That would take a lot of luck and maneuvering, but it's conceivable.

Impossible. Sneak attack is once per turn and Thief's Reflexes allow only a single "extra turn". So at best you could sneak attack twice in the opening round of combat. Where are you getting 5 from?

[LtDarien]

Impossible. Sneak attack is once per turn and Thief's Reflexes allow only a single "extra turn". So at best you could sneak attack twice in the opening round of combat. Where are you getting 5 from?
Not impossible. Not very likely perhaps, but not impossible.

It requires reactions, but you could get sneak attack damage:

As a reaction before your first turn
On your first turn
As a reaction between your first and second turns
On your second turn
As a reaction after your second turn


Granted, this would take a lot of luck and setting up, but it's entirely possible, Especially with a Battlemaster or two in the party.

[Bushmoe]

a) reliable talent means you will roll a 10 minimum for initiative checks for the rest of the game (Initiative counts as a dexterity check)

Not sure if what you say above is correct

-from handbook-

Reliable Talent
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until
they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability
check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can
treat a d20 roll o f 9 or low er as a 10


I think this only applies to skills that are affected by your proficiency bonus not initiative. I could be wrong, but that is how I'm reading the instructions.

[DrLemniscate]

Not impossible. Not very likely perhaps, but not impossible.

It requires reactions, but you could get sneak attack damage:

As a reaction before your first turn
On your first turn
As a reaction between your first and second turns
On your second turn
As a reaction after your second turn


Granted, this would take a lot of luck and setting up, but it's entirely possible, Especially with a Battlemaster or two in the party.

Reactions are once per round of combat. So once you take a reaction, you can't take another one until initiative loops back to the first person.

[LtDarien]

Reactions are once per round of combat. So once you take a reaction, you can't take another one until initiative loops back to the first person.



When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn.

Reactions reset at the start of your turn, not the initiative count, so if you take one before your turn in the first round, you can take another one once it resets at the beginning of your turn. Since Thief's Reflexes gives the Rogue two turns during the first round, its reaction will reset at the beginning of each, allowing the Rogue the potential for three reactions during the first round (or before its turn in the second round).






Not sure if what you say above is correct

-from handbook-

Reliable Talent
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until
they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability
check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can
treat a d20 roll o f 9 or low er as a 10


I think this only applies to skills that are affected by your proficiency bonus not initiative. I could be wrong, but that is how I'm reading the instructions.
It applies to any ability check that you add your proficiency to. This is usually skills and tools you are proficient in. If you could somehow add your proficiency bonus to a standard Dexterity Check (I don't think Jack of All trades would count, in this case), then it would apply to Initiative rolls. I don't believe there is a way to do that, currently.

[MustacheFart]

Umm...sneak attack says you can use it "once per turn". Where does it say a reaction made outside your turn counts as a turn?

[1of3]

There are rounds consisting of the turns of individual combattants. When it's not your turn it is someone else's turn. - BR69.

A reaction does not count as a turn. It happens during someone else's turn.

[Spacehamster]

So been reading up and thinking a bit and this is the resulting build.

Half-Orc with background Outlander

6 levels Fighter(champion) with great weapon fighting, will use Katana 1d8 two handed finesse.
3 levels of Barbarian(berserker)
11 levels of Rogue(assassin)

Should on first round on combat if I get surprise give 1 Sneak attack for 3d8 + modifier + 12d6
and 5 normal attacks for 3d8 + modifiers if I frenzy and action surge. And should still be
a very handy skill monkey and solid front liner when I cant get the drop on the enemy.

So how does this sound, pretty set on it but would be nice to hear if it sounds
like a decent build or not. :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

Edit: Any suggestions in which order to take the levels? (were thinking 4 levels assassin first, then get the 1 level barb for rage, followed by the fighter levels, 2 remaining barb and then flesh out the assassin)

[MustacheFart]

So been reading up and thinking a bit and this is the resulting build.

Half-Orc with background Outlander

6 levels Fighter(champion) with great weapon fighting, will use Katana 1d8 two handed finesse.
3 levels of Barbarian(berserker)
11 levels of Rogue(assassin)

Should on first round on combat if I get surprise give 1 Sneak attack for 3d8 + modifier + 12d6
and 5 normal attacks for 3d8 + modifiers if I frenzy and action surge. And should still be
a very handy skill monkey and solid front liner when I cant get the drop on the enemy.

So how does this sound, pretty set on it but would be nice to hear if it sounds
like a decent build or not. :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

Edit: Any suggestions in which order to take the levels? (were thinking 4 levels assassin first, then get the 1 level barb for rage, followed by the fighter levels, 2 remaining barb and then flesh out the assassin)


A few remarks.

1) How are you getting 5 extra attacks? I count 3 at most. You have two normally (remember Extra Attacks from various classes do not stack). One was used on your opening sneak so that leaves one left. Plus you have action surge so that's another. Frenzy nets you a Bonus Action attack, making 3 extra for a total of 4 attacks in the round rather than the 6 you listed. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.

2) With the levels you have listed you are giving up 2 Ability Boosts/Feats. That's big in the end game. Remember most classes offer at least 5. You've got 3.

3) If you're only going to go into only 3 levels of Barbarian then why Berzerker? There are numerous ways to get that extra attack. Heck you have it when comboing Assassin + Great Weapon Master on the opening round. You would benefit much more by going Bear Totem and picking up resistance to everything but psychic damage.

[Spacehamster]

A few remarks.

1) How are you getting 5 extra attacks? I count 3 at most. You have two normally (remember Extra Attacks from various classes do not stack). One was used on your opening sneak so that leaves one left. Plus you have action surge so that's another. Frenzy nets you a Bonus Action attack, making 3 extra for a total of 4 attacks in the round rather than the 6 you listed. You only get one Bonus Action per turn.

2) With the levels you have listed you are giving up 2 Ability Boosts/Feats. That's big in the end game. Remember most classes offer at least 5. You've got 3.

3) If you're only going to go into only 3 levels of Barbarian then why Berzerker? There are numerous ways to get that extra attack. Heck you have it when comboing Assassin + Great Weapon Master on the opening round. You would benefit much more by going Bear Totem and picking up resistance to everything but psychic damage.

1) 2 from normal attacks 1 extra from frenzy and from action surge you get a whole action so is that not 2 normal and 1 frenzy more again?

2) I get 5 ability boosts/feats Fighter from lvl 4 and 6, thats 2, and 3 from rogue at 4, 8 and 10. :)

3) Well Im not that well read into the game so Im not a über optimizer nor do I want a super mecha death christ optimised build, did not know the
Great weapon master feat gave a bonus attack, will make it bear totem then. :)

Thanks for your pointers. :)

[MeeposFire]

I think action surge just gives another action not a full turn so I don't think you get a second bonus action.

[1of3]

Indeed. There is currently no way to get a second bonus action on a turn.

[Spacehamster]

Indeed. There is currently no way to get a second bonus action on a turn.

But it says gives you a full action and a possible bonus action so it does give a bonus action. :)

[Yagyujubei]

Not sure if what you say above is correct

-from handbook-

Reliable Talent
By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until
they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability
check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can
treat a d20 roll o f 9 or low er as a 10


I think this only applies to skills that are affected by your proficiency bonus not initiative. I could be wrong, but that is how I'm reading the instructions.

ballsauce, I must have glazed over that proficiency bit with my brain....that sucks, I feel like it actually would work is jack of all trades though, since that allows you to add proficiency to the dex check.

[Malifice]

But it says gives you a full action and a possible bonus action so it does give a bonus action. :)

No it doesnt.

It says it gives you an action in addition to your normal action and possible bonus action.

[Spacehamster]

No it doesnt.

It says it gives you an action in addition to your normal action and possible bonus action.

Ah dang I guess I read it as I wanted to read it! :D
Thx for clearing it up. :)

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[Spacehamster]

What would you guys say is best 6 fighter 4 barb, 10 rogue to get 6 feats?
Or 6 fighter, 3 barb and 11 rogue for one less feat but getting reliable talent instead?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[MustacheFart]

What would you guys say is best 6 fighter 4 barb, 10 rogue to get 6 feats?
Or 6 fighter, 3 barb and 11 rogue for one less feat but getting reliable talent instead?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

Depends on what you want to do.

If I wanted to be super deadly first round, still pretty good subsequent rounds, and be hard to kill I would go with:
Fighter 4/Barbarian 8/Rogue 8.

Here's why. After level 3 the features of the Assassin rogue are pretty crappy. They're just lackluster until possibly the capstone at 17. Reliable Talent is nice for ensuring you always have a fairly decent to high minimum roll on a skill but that's primarily out of combat stuff. This is why i asked what you want from the character. You can still be a pretty good skill monkey even without reliable talent. The only other aspect you would lose by going Rogue 8 versus Rogue 11 is 2d6 sneak. That does hurt a bit but it's 7 damage on average. What you get instead is advantage on initiative which stacks very well with that Assassinate ability from Rogue for doing a lot of damage first round. You also get to add a damage die to your crits which are guaranteed during surprise rounds thanks to Assassinate.

You also can pick up the Eagle's totem feature at 6. It's the best of the 3. Some say it's not that great but seeing really freaking far is great for a scout. Fighter 4 still gets you the ability boost/feat plus the best maneuvers assuming you went battlemaster. If you went champion it still increases your crit chance.

Total number of feats with the above build is still 5.

[Spacehamster]

Depends on what you want to do.

If I wanted to be super deadly first round, still pretty good subsequent rounds, and be hard to kill I would go with:
Fighter 4/Barbarian 8/Rogue 8.

Here's why. After level 3 the features of the Assassin rogue are pretty crappy. They're just lackluster until possibly the capstone at 17. Reliable Talent is nice for ensuring you always have a fairly decent to high minimum roll on a skill but that's primarily out of combat stuff. This is why i asked what you want from the character. You can still be a pretty good skill monkey even without reliable talent. The only other aspect you would lose by going Rogue 8 versus Rogue 11 is 2d6 sneak. That does hurt a bit but it's 7 damage on average. What you get instead is advantage on initiative which stacks very well with that Assassinate ability from Rogue for doing a lot of damage first round. You also get to add a damage die to your crits which are guaranteed during surprise rounds thanks to Assassinate.

You also can pick up the Eagle's totem feature at 6. It's the best of the 3. Some say it's not that great but seeing really freaking far is great for a scout. Fighter 4 still gets you the ability boost/feat plus the best maneuvers assuming you went battlemaster. If you went champion it still increases your crit chance.

Total number of feats with the above build is still 5.

Thanks for the reply, which order would you recommend taking the levels in? Were thinking taking one of each class to begin with starting with rogue. That way I get martial weapons, rage, ac from con unarmored and combat style early, drawback of 2 levels later feat/ability buff tho.

[MustacheFart]

Thanks for the reply, which order would you recommend taking the levels in? Were thinking taking one of each class to begin with starting with rogue. That way I get martial weapons, rage, ac from con unarmored and combat style early, drawback of 2 levels later feat/ability buff tho.

The downside as you put it, is putting off feat/ability boost by two levels. That's a pretty huge boon for players as well as you'll be putting off your extra attack by 2 levels. That's possibly even worse.

Are you playing in Hoard of the Dragon Queen or just a regular campaign? If Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I say start with Barbarian. The extra d12 hp at level 1 will be huge and the ability take half damage during rages will get you to those later levels. You could toss in a level of rogue early if you want to add the sneak in. Or, possibly fighter to get their early features online as early as possible. Otherwise, I'd try and get barb to 5 before switching for a few levels. Someone else can probably do the math better.

Starting barbarian 1 and then going Rogue might not be too bad. You would push back your feat/extra attack by 1 level but you'd be pretty tanky plus have good developing dps.

[Spacehamster]

The downside as you put it, is putting off feat/ability boost by two levels. That's a pretty huge boon for players as well as you'll be putting off your extra attack by 2 levels. That's possibly even worse.

Are you playing in Hoard of the Dragon Queen or just a regular campaign? If Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I say start with Barbarian. The extra d12 hp at level 1 will be huge and the ability take half damage during rages will get you to those later levels. You could toss in a level of rogue early if you want to add the sneak in. Or, possibly fighter to get their early features online as early as possible. Otherwise, I'd try and get barb to 5 before switching for a few levels. Someone else can probably do the math better.

Starting barbarian 1 and then going Rogue might not be too bad. You would push back your feat/extra attack by 1 level but you'd be pretty tanky plus have good developing dps.

Well going rogue 1st cause that nets one more proficient skill then multiclassing into rogue. And if I know my co-players right many will go tanky resilient builds from the start so think I can contribute more with rogue skills at 1st level.

We are going to start on the campaign that came with the 5th ed starter pack. Don't really mind getting 2nd attack bit later since prob at least two others will go fighter or barb if I know em right. :)

[Chubbs Malone]

I highly recommend going pure Rogue, simply because the 5e incarnation has been designed so damn well.

5e Rogues are the perfect balance of anything you could want from a Rogue/Thief; high damage, slippery elusiveness, and the standard stealthy-quick fingers-fast talking utility that you would expect any scoundrel to bring to the table.

You start to lose some of this as you dip into other classes.

[Spacehamster]

I highly recommend going pure Rogue, simply because the 5e incarnation has been designed so damn well.

5e Rogues are the perfect balance of anything you could want from a Rogue/Thief; high damage, slippery elusiveness, and the standard stealthy-quick fingers-fast talking utility that you would expect any scoundrel to bring to the table.

You start to lose some of this as you dip into other classes.

I know pure classes all work well but my half Orc grishnakk bloodshadow simply ain't refined enough to be a full blooded rogue. :)

[MustacheFart]

I know pure classes all work well but my half Orc grishnakk bloodshadow simply ain't refined enough to be a full blooded rogue. :)

Hah, the Half Orc I am currently playing follows the same path but for a completely different reason. Ati II Pillahuaso aka Rumiñawi is an "outlander" bent on vengeance and one day re-establishing his temple community. He is wise enough to learn whatever methods he deems honorable and beneficial in the art of war. Basically, he's a battle-slut. I am grouped with a rogue and a fighter. I've seen the rogue do some cool stuff so I want to learn it. The fighter hasn't yet shown me the really good stuff but when he does I will want to learn that too.

[Spacehamster]

Hah, the Half Orc I am currently playing follows the same path but for a completely different reason. Ati II Pillahuaso aka Rumiñawi is an "outlander" bent on vengeance and one day re-establishing his temple community. He is wise enough to learn whatever methods he deems honorable and beneficial in the art of war. Basically, he's a battle-slut. I am grouped with a rogue and a fighter. I've seen the rogue do some cool stuff so I want to learn it. The fighter hasn't yet shown me the really good stuff but when he does I will want to learn that too.

Mine too is an outlander, was thinking chaotic good with chaotic evil tendences(own flaw, at heart he is good but he struggles with the inherit evil from his orc blood). He loves a good battle but he is not honorable enough to be a pure fighter or barb, nor is he all about doing everything from stealth. He loves a good fight on his own terms.

[Giant2005]

Why does everyone instantly assume the Assassin for damage? The Thief is much better.
Something like a Thief 17, Monk 13 would be getting two attacks from actions, 4 attacks from bonus actions and a possible 2 more from reactions all in a single round and with the chance of two sneak attack damages. That is more attacks than the average melee combatant and with sneak attack goodness. You could ditch Monk and do the same thing more consistently with Ranger and Dual-Wield, using the Horde Breaker level 3 ability but two of those attacks have to be on a second target.

[Rilak]

Why does everyone instantly assume the Assassin for damage? The Thief is much better.
Something like a Thief 17, Monk 13 would be getting two attacks from actions, 4 attacks from bonus actions and a possible 2 more from reactions all in a single round and with the chance of two sneak attack damages. That is more attacks than the average melee combatant and with sneak attack goodness. You could ditch Monk and do the same thing more consistently with Ranger and Dual-Wield, using the Horde Breaker level 3 ability but two of those attacks have to be on a second target.

First of all, you can't go Thief 17 Monk 13 :) (Edit: Monk 3 only adds 3 ki points; you will only flurry twice on the first turn you decide to use this making it worth less than an action surge while also requiring you to wear no armour)

More to the point, the assassin adds crit and advantage on hitting. So he has a higher chance of hitting, and does more damage if he does hit. Critting doubles damage from sneak attack. With 5 levels of a melee class, you get 2+1 attacks (dual-wield). For 2*Sneak Attack damage and pretty much the same damage as 4+2 attacks. You also get the opportunity to add an action surge for an additional 2 (or 3) attacks, also with double damage (if you go for Fighter 5/11).

Note: Assassin only gets these bonuses if you can surprise the opponent. But on the other hand... It is a level 3 ability as opposed to a level 17 ability. Most people do not play as high as level 17, which is the real reason they prefer assassins over thieves. 17 levels is just too long for the first good archetype ability.

[edge2054]

Any thoughts on making a Sentinel build work? The basic idea is that Sentinel lets you punish someone when they attack anyone else, as this is an attack of opportunity that does not occur on your turn it would count as a sneak attack. The drawback is that it costs your reaction (so no Uncanny Dodge) and that you're going to be in melee pretty much all the time.

[Giant2005]

First of all, you can't go Thief 17 Monk 13 :) (Edit: Monk 3 only adds 3 ki points; you will only flurry twice on the first turn you decide to use this making it worth less than an action surge while also requiring you to wear no armour)

More to the point, the assassin adds crit and advantage on hitting. So he has a higher chance of hitting, and does more damage if he does hit. Critting doubles damage from sneak attack. With 5 levels of a melee class, you get 2+1 attacks (dual-wield). For 2*Sneak Attack damage and pretty much the same damage as 4+2 attacks. You also get the opportunity to add an action surge for an additional 2 (or 3) attacks, also with double damage (if you go for Fighter 5/11).

Note: Assassin only gets these bonuses if you can surprise the opponent. But on the other hand... It is a level 3 ability as opposed to a level 17 ability. Most people do not play as high as level 17, which is the real reason they prefer assassins over thieves. 17 levels is just too long for the first good archetype ability.

Yeah Assassin being front-loaded is definitely a boon for both multi-classing and being more practical in game. In a level 20 build though, it doesn't really compare - getting a free crit (doubling your variable damage) doesn't really hold a candle next to getting a free turn (doubling your variable damage, fixed damage and reaction damage). And yeah... I meant Monk 3.

[Person_Man]

I'm generally a huge advocate for Assassin Rogue myself, since I've played one, and it rocks.

But it is worth noting that the Thief Rogue can Use an Object as a Bonus Action, and RAW, that currently includes magic items. Mearls has said that was a mistake/oversight and he intends to remove it, but I think that because the Assassinate is so awesome it should be left as is. Once some good magic items come out, I could see a wand wielding Thief Rogue being awesome.

[MustacheFart]

Yeah Assassin being front-loaded is definitely a boon for both multi-classing and being more practical in game. In a level 20 build though, it doesn't really compare - getting a free crit (doubling your variable damage) doesn't really hold a candle next to getting a free turn (doubling your variable damage, fixed damage and reaction damage). And yeah... I meant Monk 3.

I agree that it is superior to the assassinate ability. Though, as has been mentioned the time until you get it just seems waaay too long. 17 levels! I mean it's nice but that seems like an awefully painful road as the rest of Thief kind of sucks in my opinion. If I was playing in a game that started at high level then sure. Starting at level 1? Give me assassinate! Considering most games crap out before they reach the high levels anyway. They should've set that move at level 14 at least.

[MeeposFire]

I agree that it is superior to the assassinate ability. Though, as has been mentioned the time until you get it just seems waaay too long. 17 levels! I mean it's nice but that seems like an awefully painful road as the rest of Thief kind of sucks in my opinion. If I was playing in a game that started at high level then sure. Starting at level 1? Give me assassinate! Considering most games crap out before they reach the high levels anyway. They should've set that move at level 14 at least.

Well if you have access to wands and the like the thief could be very interesting at higher levels assuming you use the current rules that allow you to use those magic items with a bonus action with a thief.

I wonder if there will be any good thief usable items to use those bonus action on before you get to use any magic item and therefor improve the thief's early level stock?

[MustacheFart]

Well if you have access to wands and the like the thief could be very interesting at higher levels assuming you use the current rules that allow you to use those magic items with a bonus action with a thief.

I wonder if there will be any good thief usable items to use those bonus action on before you get to use any magic item and therefor improve the thief's early level stock?

Very true. Though that's a hell of a risk when we don't even know what magic items will exist yet lol. Plus the rarity of them might take that out of the equation.

[Spacehamster]

Depends on what you want to do.

If I wanted to be super deadly first round, still pretty good subsequent rounds, and be hard to kill I would go with:
Fighter 4/Barbarian 8/Rogue 8.

Here's why. After level 3 the features of the Assassin rogue are pretty crappy. They're just lackluster until possibly the capstone at 17. Reliable Talent is nice for ensuring you always have a fairly decent to high minimum roll on a skill but that's primarily out of combat stuff. This is why i asked what you want from the character. You can still be a pretty good skill monkey even without reliable talent. The only other aspect you would lose by going Rogue 8 versus Rogue 11 is 2d6 sneak. That does hurt a bit but it's 7 damage on average. What you get instead is advantage on initiative which stacks very well with that Assassinate ability from Rogue for doing a lot of damage first round. You also get to add a damage die to your crits which are guaranteed during surprise rounds thanks to Assassinate.

You also can pick up the Eagle's totem feature at 6. It's the best of the 3. Some say it's not that great but seeing really freaking far is great for a scout. Fighter 4 still gets you the ability boost/feat plus the best maneuvers assuming you went battlemaster. If you went champion it still increases your crit chance.

Total number of feats with the above build is still 5.

Just read a bit in the PHB and everything was right xcpt the extra die on critical from barb, sadly thats from level 9 barb. :(

[MustacheFart]

Just read a bit in the PHB and everything was right xcpt the extra die on critical from barb, sadly thats from level 9 barb. :(

Damn...so you've got to eat a feat/ability boost if you want it.

[Spacehamster]

Damn...so you've got to eat a feat/ability boost if you want it.

Yeah think ill just go with 6 fig, 4 barb and 10 rogue instead for one size bigger sneak attack and 6 feat/ability boosts instead. :)

[MustacheFart]

Yeah think ill just go with 6 fig, 4 barb and 10 rogue instead for one size bigger sneak attack and 6 feat/ability boosts instead. :)

Sounds like a plan stan. With all of those feats you could probably afford to take Alert with one. That +5 to initiative would somewhat offset the barbarian feature anyway. Feats to consider would be: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer.

[Spacehamster]

Sounds like a plan stan. With all of those feats you could probably afford to take Alert with one. That +5 to initiative would somewhat offset the barbarian feature anyway. Feats to consider would be: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer.

Were thinking to get sharpshooter at least since my sneak attack will be from ranged mainly and ignore all but total cover and possibility to take -5 on roll for 10+dmg is real nice, will be sniping with heavy crossbow. :) and yeah the +5 initiative is defo on the list too. Rolled godly stats so will prob only use one boost for ability boosting. :)

Edit: oh and sharpshooter also removes disadvantage at long range

[Rilak]

Sounds like a plan stan. With all of those feats you could probably afford to take Alert with one. That +5 to initiative would somewhat offset the barbarian feature anyway. Feats to consider would be: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer.

GWM is okay for the (sometimes) extra attack, but you can't use heavy/versatile weapons and sneak attack.
Polearm master weapons cannot be used for sneak attacks.
Sentinel could be cool for a Rogue. A maybe extra attack for a sneak attack.
Mage Slayer also sounds very nice. Higher levels tend to have more wizards as enemies, and scarier spells.

Barbarian 5,6,7 gives fast movement (not a major issue in 5e; and you can use Rogue to Dash), Feral Instinct (offset by Alert Feat), Eagle Totem (no disadv. Perception) or Mindless Rage (also good), and 1 rage/day.

You add 1 additional feat, 1d6 SA, Infiltration Expertise for that 1 rage/day and mindless rage (and fast movement). That seems like a pretty good deal to me.

[MustacheFart]

Were thinking to get sharpshooter at least since my sneak attack will be from ranged mainly and ignore all but total cover and possibility to take -5 on roll for 10+dmg is real nice, will be sniping with heavy crossbow. :) and yeah the +5 initiative is defo on the list too. Rolled godly stats so will prob only use one boost for ability boosting. :)

Edit: oh and sharpshooter also removes disadvantage at long range

Keep in mind that the heavy Crossbow has the "loading" property so you will not be able to use it as often as you'd like unless you also take the Crossbow Expert feat.

If you're wanting to maximize damage on that surprise round via your assassinate ability then you will have to wade into melee. If you rolled godly you can probably do a bit of both with your feats: Improve your ranged for initial opener and melee for subsequent attacks. Remember the Barbarian's extra damage comes from melee strength based attacks.


GWM is okay for the (sometimes) extra attack, but you can't use heavy/versatile weapons and sneak attack.
Polearm master weapons cannot be used for sneak attacks.
Sentinel could be cool for a Rogue. A maybe extra attack for a sneak attack.
Mage Slayer also sounds very nice. Higher levels tend to have more wizards as enemies, and scarier spells.

Barbarian 5,6,7 gives fast movement (not a major issue in 5e; and you can use Rogue to Dash), Feral Instinct (offset by Alert Feat), Eagle Totem (no disadv. Perception) or Mindless Rage (also good), and 1 rage/day.

You add 1 additional feat, 1d6 SA, Infiltration Expertise for that 1 rage/day and mindless rage (and fast movement). That seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Keep in mind that while you can't use heavy/versatile weapons with sneak attack you can use them with the Assassinate ability. This means GWM would generate an extra attack every surprise round. Also only the extra +10 damage at -5 to hit requires a heavy weapon. The extra attack part on a crit or reducing creature to 0 does not.

Correct on the Polearm master. It depends on whether he is trying to maximize sneak attack (and when he gets it) or be more diverse while still being very deadly.

Sentinel, we're on agreement there. Same on Mage Slayer.

On what you're giving up in Barbarian, it's mindless rage or Eagle Totem :smallwink: and also the fast movement. Plus while the Alert feat does somewhat offset the barbarian ability which is why I suggested it, it doesn't completely compare. There's a big difference between having advantage and a +5.

EDIT: Not entirely correct on the Polearm Master not working with sneak attack. I just reread it and it can. The first part that lets you use a bonus action to hit them with the other end of the weapon will not work but that's meh anyway. The cream there is that enemies provoke AoO's from you just by entering your reach. It also says all you need to do to get that is WIELD a quarterstaff. So, you could have a walking stick in one hand and a finesse weapon in the other. Make your attack with the finesse weapon. Two weapon fighting would also grant you that extra attack as a bonus action anytime you want it.

So if you really wanted to be a sneak attack whore you could simply dual wield a rapier(or whip for the extra reach) and quarterstaff. Then take Dual Wielder, Polearm Master, Sentinal, and Mage Slayer. You'd pretty much be guaranteed a reaction sneak attack.

[Spacehamster]

Keep in mind that the heavy Crossbow has the "loading" property so you will not be able to use it as often as you'd like unless you also take the Crossbow Expert feat.

If you're wanting to maximize damage on that surprise round via your assassinate ability then you will have to wade into melee. If you rolled godly you can probably do a bit of both with your feats: Improve your ranged for initial opener and melee for subsequent attacks. Remember the Barbarian's extra damage comes from melee strength based attacks.

Yeah were thinking crossbow master feat too so I can get multiple attacks with it when ranged is preffered, that and sharpshooter would open for 3 more feats and one ability boost. Will check out suggested feats when I come home. :)

[Rilak]

Keep in mind that while you can't use heavy/versatile weapons with sneak attack you can use them with the Assassinate ability. This means GWM would generate an extra attack every surprise round. Also only the extra +10 damage at -5 to hit requires a heavy weapon. The extra attack part on a crit or reducing creature to 0 does not.

Yes, but if you are not going to sneak attack, why go Rogue 10? Sure, GWM grants an extra attack every surprise round. So does TWF, and it does not require a feat. If you go Rogue 3/4 just for Assassin, I could see going GWM and Polearm Master ;)

[MustacheFart]

Yes, but if you are not going to sneak attack, why go Rogue 10? Sure, GWM grants an extra attack every surprise round. So does TWF, and it does not require a feat. If you go Rogue 3/4 just for Assassin, I could see going GWM and Polearm Master ;)

Yep, did you read my edit? I basically came to the same conclusion about GWM. Though polearm master could totally be comboed with Dual Wielder for a sneak attacker to great benefit.


Just a little melee math:

Assuming two main attacks and one bonus action attack (all in melee) with just 3/4 levels of Rogue Assassin.

Rogue Sneak Attack weapons:
3d6 + 4d6 + 3d6 + 3d6 = 10.5 + 14 + 10.5 + 10.5 = 45.5

Rogue Sneak Attack weapons w/ dual wielder feat:
3d8 + 4d6 + 3d8 + 3d8 = 13.5 + 14 + 13.5 + 13.5 = 54.5

Big Barbarian Great Axe forgoing sneak attack:
3d12 + 3d12 + 3d12 = 19.5 + 19.5 + 19.5 = 58.5

So yeah, looking at it like this, if you go only a dip in Rogue it's worth it to stick with the two-hander. Although, for the maximum damage ideally you'd juggle a one-hander and a two-hander. Using the one hander for that sneak attack per turn and when you end your turn (for sneak reactions) while using the two-hander for subsequent rounds. Definitely not an easy combat style.

I wish there was either Monkey Grip or a feat that let you use a ranged attack in place of melee attacks on AoOs.

[edge2054]

EDIT: Not entirely correct on the Polearm Master not working with sneak attack. I just reread it and it can. The first part that lets you use a bonus action to hit them with the other end of the weapon will not work but that's meh anyway. The cream there is that enemies provoke AoO's from you just by entering your reach. It also says all you need to do to get that is WIELD a quarterstaff. So, you could have a walking stick in one hand and a finesse weapon in the other. Make your attack with the finesse weapon. Two weapon fighting would also grant you that extra attack as a bonus action anytime you want it.



People have tried the same line of reasoning to justify Warcaster + Polearm Master letting you use spells when someone enters your reach. One of the twitter posts clarified that the AoO has to be with the polearm.

I'd still like to do a Sentinel Rogue build though. I may just grab it at level 4 on my Wood Elf and leverage Sentinel and the high movement speed to peel enemies off squishies.

Another nice option, and forgive me if this has been mentioned, is just dropping some levels into fighter and grabbing Riposte.

[MustacheFart]

People have tried the same line of reasoning to justify Warcaster + Polearm Master letting you use spells when someone enters your reach. One of the twitter posts clarified that the AoO has to be with the polearm.

I'd still like to do a Sentinel Rogue build though. I may just grab it at level 4 on my Wood Elf and leverage Sentinel and the high movement speed to peel enemies off squishies.

Another nice option, and forgive me if this has been mentioned, is just dropping some levels into fighter and grabbing Riposte.

People mention these twitter posts and such but to be fair, most of the time those will have very little weight in a game. What if the DM hasn't seen the twitter post?

RAW polearm master doesn't require you to use the polearm to make the AoO. I agree that RAI is clear that you do but until an errata or something more official is released it's fair to go off RAW.

Besides I can make sense of it thematically as well. You're a master of the walking staff. Others neglect such a innately powerful weapon. Anyone daring to close in on you will quickly find their progress halted by a staff holding them at bay while a knife is plunged in their gut. Or something along those lines.

[edge2054]

What makes sense to one person isn't going to make sense to another. A staff is 5'+ long. A dagger often less than a 1'. Going from I poke someone with my staff as they enter my reach too I plunge my dagger in their gut feels like a reach ( >.>)

Anyway you're right about the twitter posts. Ultimately it is up to DM interpretation. But twitter posts or not, it feels like rules lawyering to me and as a DM I'd be very hesitant to let someone pull off sneak attack like this.

*edit* And just to clarify, the word 'wield' implies use. It's to hold and use. Not just hold.

[MustacheFart]

What makes sense to one person isn't going to make sense to another. A staff is 5'+ long. A dagger often less than a 1'. Going from I poke someone with my staff as they enter my reach too I plunge my dagger in their gut feels like a reach ( >.>)

Anyway you're right about the twitter posts. Ultimately it is up to DM interpretation. But twitter posts or not, it feels like rules lawyering to me and as a DM I'd be very hesitant to let someone pull off sneak attack like this.

*edit* And just to clarify, the word 'wield' implies use. It's to hold and use. Not just hold.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. Though, given some of the other reaction based attacks out there, I'd say using a polearm to hold someone back while you make a quick thrust forward isn't that far of a reach. I have more issue with the fact that Polearm Master includes the Quarterstaff, a non-reach weapon and yet only lists the pike for the second part but not the first part.

Wield can imply use, yes. Sadly, as written though it doesn't state for what nor that the extra attack has to be part of that "wield" use.

[edge2054]

From a flavor perspective I feel the quarterstaff should be a finesse weapon to begin with. From a numbers perspective I'm not sure how I feel about rogues sneak attacking every time someone closes with them. Sentinel requires you stay in melee range to really take advantage of it. Mage Slayer is highly situational. The Polearm Master AoO is one of the best in the game in my opinion.

Anyway I'm not disagreeing with you and people are free to run the game how they want. I just wanted to point out the rules clarification that was posted on twitter so you, or someone else, didn't get blindsided if they had their heart set on such a build and their DM ruled against it.

[MustacheFart]

Anyway I'm not disagreeing with you and people are free to run the game how they want. I just wanted to point out the rules clarification that was posted on twitter so you, or someone else, didn't get blindsided if they had their heart set on such a build and their DM ruled against it.

Hah, yeah I would not try to run a build exploiting that. I'm with you on that one. Just stating it was an option.

I'm more interested in the sentinel feat. In fact, I still can't decide between that and GWM on my barbarian when I hit level 4. He'll go Rogue after he hits Barb 5 with the goal of getting Assassinate. We have a pally already who now offers disadvantage to enemies who attack an ally within 5' of him. Seems, like Sentinel could jive pretty well with that. Attack the pally, I hit you. Attack me, take disadvantage. Seems like it may be a lot more fun. My DM also sure does love to avoid attacking my 20 AC barbarian. In fact, I haven't been able to goad him into attacking my guy once. He's a DM who will straight up have the bad guy attack the rogue or squishy next to me rather than the big scary half-orc (me) who's just decimated half of the bad guy's friends. Sentinel would make use of A LOT of reactions.

[edge2054]

Yeah, I'm leaning heavily towards Sentinel too. I think I mentioned that above. I haven't found a home game yet but did AL at the local gaming shop last Wednesday and plan to go back tonight. I made a cleric and the table had an abundance of healers. I asked the other players what would be good and they requested a damage dealer.

I thought hey, a rogue with Sentinel so I can really punish people with sneak attack! Then I thought, how am I going to survive in melee to leverage it?

So the current plan is wood elf rogue and rely on the long bow mostly until level 4. At level 4 I figure I can leverage the 35 ft movement speed, cunning action (for dash), and sentinel to basically play the linebacker. Orc charges the cleric! I close and sneak attack. Orc tries to run or tries to finish off the cleric. I react with another dagger in the back.

Should be fun :)

[Spacehamster]

Well on Sunday my half Orc rogue takes his first 5th edition lvl 1 baby steps, will be DM but might be one man short so my grishnakk bloodshadow will tag along as passive help most likely. ^^ wish me luck! :D

[DCraw]

Yeah, I'm leaning heavily towards Sentinel too. I think I mentioned that above. I haven't found a home game yet but did AL at the local gaming shop last Wednesday and plan to go back tonight. I made a cleric and the table had an abundance of healers. I asked the other players what would be good and they requested a damage dealer.

I thought hey, a rogue with Sentinel so I can really punish people with sneak attack! Then I thought, how am I going to survive in melee to leverage it?

So the current plan is wood elf rogue and rely on the long bow mostly until level 4. At level 4 I figure I can leverage the 35 ft movement speed, cunning action (for dash), and sentinel to basically play the linebacker. Orc charges the cleric! I close and sneak attack. Orc tries to run or tries to finish off the cleric. I react with another dagger in the back.

Should be fun :)

Rogue 17 / Warlock 3 can really exploit Sentinel. Take Mirror Image and Darkness as your two 2nd level spells known, and Devil's Sight as one of your invocations. Cast both before combat starts (while you're setting up your ambush). Being in darkness applies the blinded condition (which you ignore thanks to Devil's Sight). This means that you have advantage to attack blinded enemies (triggering sneak attack), and they have disadvantage to on attacks directed at you - which in turn only have a 1/4 chance of actually targeting the correct you. Once they're stuck in your sphere of death, Sentinel will keep them there, taking ~20d6 per round with very little they can do about it.

Note: Blindsight and Truesight put a stop to this, so be careful who you pick fights with. You should have enough tools from the rest of the build and your party to deal with these situations, though. I don't have the MM yet, but of the enemies in the PHB with Blindsight, about half only have 10'. Your Darkness sphere is 15', so you could always kite them with a ranged weapon. Sentinel would be of limited use, though.

[Bakakiba]

Rogue 17 / Warlock 3 can really exploit Sentinel. Take Mirror Image and Darkness as your two 2nd level spells known, and Devil's Sight as one of your invocations. Cast both before combat starts (while you're setting up your ambush). Being in darkness applies the blinded condition (which you ignore thanks to Devil's Sight). This means that you have advantage to attack blinded enemies (triggering sneak attack), and they have disadvantage to on attacks directed at you - which in turn only have a 1/4 chance of actually targeting the correct you. Once they're stuck in your sphere of death, Sentinel will keep them there, taking ~20d6 per round with very little they can do about it.

Note: Blindsight and Truesight put a stop to this, so be careful who you pick fights with. You should have enough tools from the rest of the build and your party to deal with these situations, though. I don't have the MM yet, but of the enemies in the PHB with Blindsight, about half only have 10'. Your Darkness sphere is 15', so you could always kite them with a ranged weapon. Sentinel would be of limited use, though.

Mirror image doesn't work against those who cannot see. I don't like the darkness/devil sight combo for rogues. Can't use it against a boss without messing up your teammates, and you can hide as a bonus action anyways. If I were to play a rogue, I would focus fire and team with the melees to get the sneak attacks.

[edge2054]

I played a dual classed ninja/shadow mage in second edition. Seeing through magical darkness is certainly powerful. That character got possessed at one point and the DM let me make the decisions. It was almost a TPK. I made a few intentional mistakes to keep the campaign going.

Anyway it can be a fun build but doesn't really fit the character concept I'm shooting for. And as mentioned, those tactics generally don't mesh well with the rest of the party.

[Spacehamster]

Were thinking 6 battle master, 4 lore college bard and 10 assassin instead of 4 levels barb, would not grant as much staying power but would gain me invisibility spells, 4 more skills and 2 additional skills with expertise. Would make me a great skill monkey and stealther due to also having acess to invisibility. :)