"You chose ... poorly" - Tell me the bad options in PF?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I'll be embarking on a vanilla core PF game soon, and I realised that I've never actually played in the system! I've been GMing a 3.5 Generic Classes E6 for so long, I've not really seen much of the rest of the rules - so I thought I'd come see what the Wisdom of the Playground has garnered.

What I'm wondering is this: What are the race / class / feat / school / domain options that look awesome, but are actually traps?
(Please show what's wrong with the option, rather than just to say it sucks.)

The group of us are coming together at the weekend to make characters - so I don't know what class or race any of us will be going with.

[Alent]

If it looks like a fighter feat, smells like a fighter feat, and the Feat bullet point listing sounds useful, it's a trap! No, really, pretty much every interesting feat, like vital strike, etc. are universally standard actions, so you can either have really big individual dice attacks or full iteratives.

More seriously, How serious is the group going to be? High OP, low OP, anywhere between? Depending on the number crunching, it may not even matter.

[Raven777]

Building a martial like a Fighter or a Monk for Combat Manoeuvers looks like a decent battlefield control idea until you realize that everything that makes them usable, like making them not provoke AoOs, is gated behind feat chains and that anyway, CMD scales much faster than CMB, making these things mostly useless against your foes pas mid levels.

[Kudaku]

Just to get the obvious one out of the way: Basically anything with rogue in it.

Rogues are the only medium BAB class that gets zero options to improve their attack bonus, feinting is monstrously hard to make effective, tumbling is hard to impossible by mid game, the rogue talents universally suck to the point where people trade talents for feats while most other classes happily trade feats for talents, the skill system was revamped to make class skills significantly less good, and the investigator, slayer, alchemist and bard all do the rogue thing better than the rogue - to the point where Paizo themselves have said "the rogue has issues" and is going to publish a "revamped rogue" in Pathfinder Unchained.

[Psyren]

> Open any handbook
> Look for red
> ????
> Profit

All that work has already been done for nearly every class. (Not all of the newest ones yet, but they are coming.)

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I'll be embarking on a vanilla core PF game soon...


...the investigator, slayer, alchemist and bard all do the rogue thing better than the rogue...

Just stuff from the Core Rulebook, remember?

[Psyren]

Even easier. Treantmonk covered nearly every core class, spell and feat using CRB-only, so you won't even have much to look through.

[Snowbluff]

If it looks like a fighter feat, smells like a fighter feat, and the Feat bullet point listing sounds useful, it's a trap! No, really, pretty much every interesting feat, like vital strike, etc. are universally standard actions, so you can either have really big individual dice attacks or full iteratives.

More seriously, How serious is the group going to be? High OP, low OP, anywhere between? Depending on the number crunching, it may not even matter.


Building a martial like a Fighter or a Monk for Combat Manoeuvers looks like a decent battlefield control idea until you realize that everything that makes them usable, like making them not provoke AoOs, is gated behind feat chains and that anyway, CMD scales much faster than CMB, making these things mostly useless against your foes pas mid levels.Feats in general. It feels like you either go between "ugh, +1 to something" to "hey, free metamagic" with few things in between.

More seriously, team work feats. Unless you're playing class built for them, they suck. There are couple of exceptions (Escape Route and Broken Wing Gambit) that are both good and don't require a team member to waste a feat on. Also, classes with Teamwork feats as a benefit. It's not very useful. IIRC, you won't have to worry about that.

You really should just play a Druid.

[Kudaku]

Just stuff from the Core Rulebook, remember?

Ah, I misunderstood you. When posters say "Core PF" they usually mean "core rulebooks only, no ISWG, chronicles or player companions", not "Core Rulebook only". The core rulebooks in Pathfinder are typically defined as the CRB, GM, Bestiary, UM, UC, APG and the ACG. If you mean "CRB Only" rather than "core only" you might want to edit the OP slightly. :smallsmile:

That said, the critique against the rogue still stands. It's a lackluster class, though limiting it to CRB only means it's merely poor rather than completely outperformed by other classes. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

^ What Kudaku said, Core PF includes the Advanced and Ultimate books. (However, on this hybrid forum I assume folks that say "core only" are referring to the CRB unless they state otherwise.)

[jjcrpntr]

If it looks like a fighter feat, smells like a fighter feat, and the Feat bullet point listing sounds useful, it's a trap! No, really, pretty much every interesting feat, like vital strike, etc. are universally standard actions, so you can either have really big individual dice attacks or full iteratives.

More seriously, How serious is the group going to be? High OP, low OP, anywhere between? Depending on the number crunching, it may not even matter.

I love this, I have a player that I'm sure is going to take the vital strike line eventually. He doesn't read things fully he just sees It adds damage! and goes nuts.

[Kudaku]

^ What Kudaku said, Core PF includes the Advanced and Ultimate books. (However, on this hybrid forum I assume folks that say "core only" are referring to the CRB unless they state otherwise.)

A good rule to keep in mind for the future. :smallsmile:

For what it's worth Pathfinder "Core" includes more books than 3.5 "Core" because the Pathfinder rule books are all available online for free, both at their official SRD and at several fan sites.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ is the official website, but also the one I find the most lacking. It's slow to update and usually frequently does not contain erratas or relevant FAQs. Has the least material of the three.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ is the site I typically use. Since it relies on advertising the website is not able to use Golarion-specific content, so they reflavour setting-specific language. It is very up to date and frequently includes useful sidebars with developer commentary or FAQ clarifications.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ This site is becoming more popular and unlike D20PFSRD they're nonprofit and can include the golarion-specific language. I don't have much experience with it, but it seems to be fairly good.

[Psyren]

Don't forget http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/, which is also allowed to use the Golarion material. It also has the downloadable spell/monster/etc. spreadsheets for complex filtering using excel.

[The Random NPC]

...
More seriously, team work feats. Unless you're playing class built for them, they suck. There are couple of exceptions (Escape Route and Broken Wing Gambit) that are both good and don't require a team member to waste a feat on. Also, classes with Teamwork feats as a benefit. It's not very useful. IIRC, you won't have to worry about that.
...

Escape Route does nothing without an ally with the feat, and Broken Wing Gambit is only useful if you want to incentivise people to hit you. Which is a possibility, especially if you're trying to tank.

[Snowbluff]

Escape Route does nothing without an ally with the feat, and Broken Wing Gambit is only useful if you want to incentivise people to hit you. Which is a possibility, especially if you're trying to tank. Eh, the wording is weird on escape route so I'll give it to you. File that under the "salvageable" list.

Broken Wing Gambit is pretty good. Not so much tanking, but as granting yourself an advantage. If you're the only option for an attack, you get another attack. If you are not, and you don't want to get hit, you can use it. It gives a little extra flexibility.

[deuxhero]

Good thing you are your own ally, in your own space and have the feat.

Honestly, for martial it would be easier to list the GOOD feats. For Core Rulebook only this is something like...

Power Attack
Lunge
Most archery feats
Penetrating Strike (maybe)
Shield Master+TWF line (RAW only, not RAI)
Spirited Charge line
Combat Reflexes

[BaurPowr]

As far as core PF goes I know that paladin and ranger both got a good buff in their ability from that of 3.5. and I've played both a fighter and a barbarian in low level campaigns. Building them both out to be tanky and still viable for damage. Core PF is pretty fun no matter what you pick and in the end, unless you're some super hardcore meta-gaming nerd then who cares? Pick whatever you want and have fun. I burned like 3 feats on my animal companion in game for my ranger because I like the idea of that.

[Snowbluff]

Shield Master+TWF line (RAW only, not RAI)


So you ignore TWF penalties? Nice. :smalltongue:

Question: Is there a Dungeoncrasher-style option to take advantage of shield slam?

[The Random NPC]

I guess that works for Broken Wing Gambit, Pathfinder applies the whole you're your own ally thing inconsistently.

Technically, Shield Master ignores all penalties, so load up on all of them. Power Attack? Straight damage boost.

There's a few shield related feats, but most of them aren't very good.

[Greenish]

unless you're some super hardcore meta-gaming nerd then who cares?I object to the "meta-gaming" part.

[Snowbluff]

I guess that works for Broken Wing Gambit, Pathfinder applies the whole you're your own ally thing inconsistently.

Technically, Shield Master ignores all penalties, so load up on all of them. Power Attack? Straight damage boost.

There's a few shield related feats, but most of them aren't very good. Yerp and yerp.

That's a lot of feat tax. Honestly, it's good that you can get a free +7... if you can get that many feats.

I object to the "meta-gaming" part.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that's a joke. :smalltongue:

[The Random NPC]

Interestingly, the Shield Champion Archetype for Brawler is a really good choice for a shield fighter. Increased damage dice, bonus feats similar to a Fighter, a couple of shield related feats if you can qualify for them, and Martial Flexibility for when you can't bring your shield to bear.

[Psyren]

Technically, Shield Master ignores all penalties, so load up on all of them. Power Attack? Straight damage boost.

JB clarified that it only applies to the TWF penalties.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

It sounds like Broken Wing Gambit would work well for a Swashbuckler, if it allows you to make an AoO as your own ally instead of requiring someone else in your party to have it.

EDIT: If I'm reading this right... You attack, hit, activate Broken Wing. When the enemy attacks you, you get an AoO, and can then use Opportune Parry and Riposte to make an opposing roll to try and stop the incoming attack and follow up with another AoO.

That sounds amazing.

[Snowbluff]

JB clarified that it only applies to the TWF penalties.
It was specified RAW, not RAI.

[grarrrg]

With all the people talking about "You always count as your own Ally" and whatnot regarding Escape Route and Broken Wing Gambit and whatnot, I'd like to refer you to the actual FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9nda) (underline added):

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

Escape Route falls into the "would make no sense" category. The intent is clear, the fluff is clear. 'You' are not supposed to directly benefit from having this feat.

Broken Wing Gambit on the other hand...actually makes some sense that 'you' would be able to benefit.
The only real intent/indication that 'you' should not benefit is the fact that it's a Teamwork feat.