afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread 5!

[afroakuma]

Yes, after a short hiatus I've decided once again to wade into the world of questions about the Planes. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272393), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299450) and most recently here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV).

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for lots and lots of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian. That is all.

Happy questioning! :smallsmile:

[Brookshw]

The "Chalice" of hieroneous, anything you can add to canonfire's page? Why Dispator? Does he have any long range plans for her (or his boss).

Apologies for spelling, phones and such.

Edit; Or should the whole thing just be thrown out the window?

[afroakuma]

The "Chalice" of hieroneous, anything you can add to canonfire's page?

No, it was a pretty one-off idea.


Why Dispator?

Because Hextor found it very easy to deal with the Iron Duke, and because Dispater didn't get the title of Iron Duke for being a marshmallow when it comes to imprisonment.


Does he have any long range plans for her (or his boss).

Nothing's been specified.

[Brookshw]

On an Io kick!

Where does the first void fit into the cosmology, outside of it in a sense like the far plane? In some theoretical sense like the ordial? Are the old ones there or do they have some other place to cool their heels? What do we know about the first void?

Is there any legacy of Vorel other than Tiamat's a twit? Items, locations, anything really. Or is this a "she's dead Jim" and that's the end of it?

[Alleran]

I had a couple of questions that I wanted to ask, but now I can't remember them.

So, ancient baatorians, the Nine Hells and other ancient creatures instead.

Zargon is described as one in Elder Evils, specifically that he was the "father" of the race, and that his kingdom in the Hells was a terrifying place "filled with running slime and rampant evil." Is that presumably an accurate depiction of what it was like back in the day for the ancient baatorians?

On their current appearance, I recently looked for depictions, and counting Zargon with his tentacley body as one, I also found that adventure with yugoloths who had a nupperibo on the verge of evolving and it was starting to produce tentacles out of its stomach. There's also the one where the sleeping ancient baatorian looks a bit like some sort of jellyfish-thing (the PCs enter a room and it sucks up all the light; there's a gray-shaded image of it on the page) that sucks up all their life force and can't be harmed by anything less than a wish or miracle "in that state." Are there any other pictures or descriptions you are aware of, or are those the only three?

What do you think they most likely look like, besides Baalphegor (whose form may just be the result of illusion or shapeshifting)?

Is it likely that some of them might be locked up in Carceri? Or frozen beneath Cania?

I was reading (on the Internet, so imagine my skepticism) that there are two stories to Bensozia's death. One is that Levistus killed her for refusing to side with him against Asmodeus, and one that Glasya killed her because she was sleeping around with Levistus and got caught in the act. Which of the two do you think is more likely to be true?

Extra question, was there ever anything more said about the "Sleeping Ones" living beneath the Paraelemental Plane of Ice? Such as their origin, identity, or the like? The size makes me think draeden, along the lines of Ulgurshek in the Abyss with a layer growing around him.

[Larkas]

We're back?!? HOORAY!!! \o/ So... What can you tell us about Vorel (the sister of Bahamut and Tiamat)? Do you know of any relations between Sardior and Bahamut/Tiamt?

[enderlord99]

I still don't see why Levistus got it so easy. To clarify, I'm not asking why he wasn't destroyed; rather, I'm asking why Asmodeus doesn't subject him to tortures beyond that of an arcanaloth's greatest imagination.

...Well, approaching an arcanaloth's greatest imagination, anyway.

[afroakuma]

What do we know about the first void?

Nothing. As noted, it's not a component of the myths of other races, not so far as we know of at any rate. It's very likely simply an egotistical component of draconic mythology. Of course, "very likely" is altogether different from "definitely," so... :smallwink:


Is there any legacy of Vorel other than Tiamat's a twit? Items, locations, anything really. Or is this a "she's dead Jim" and that's the end of it?

Nothing more was ever introduced on Vorel, to my knowledge. Someone homebrewed a vestige once, though.


Zargon

No. Let me go amend the first post regarding that.


Are there any other pictures or descriptions you are aware of, or are those the only two.

The nupperibo isn't even fully transitioned at that point, but yes, those are the only two. I wouldn't take them as the be-all, end-all of what baatorians looked like.


What do you think they most likely look like

You know how obyriths all look horrifyingly wrong? Well. :smallamused:


Is it likely that some of them might be locked up in Carceri?

No.


Or frozen beneath Cania?

Well, something was, and it wasn't baatezu...


I was reading (on the Internet, so imagine my skepticism) that there are two stories to Bensozia's death. One is that Levistus killed her for refusing to side with him against Asmodeus, and one that Glasya killed her because she was sleeping around with Levistus and got caught in the act. Which of the two do you think is more likely to be true?

I've never even heard the second one, but it's wrong. The first one is one of the few totally factual things that can be known about the Lord Below.


Extra question, was there ever anything more said about the "Sleeping Ones" living beneath the Paraelemental Plane of Ice? Such as their origin, identity, or the like? The size makes me think draeden, along the lines of Ulgurshek in the Abyss with a layer growing around him.

Nothing more, no, though you're intended to think draedens. Because they're draedens. :smalltongue:


We're back?!? HOORAY!!! \o/ So... What can you tell us about Vorel (the sister of Bahamut and Tiamat)?

Nothing more than you already know. Vorel was added in as a Dragon God In The Refrigerator for backstory purposes, nothing more. Makes for some cool potential campaign ideas, though, if that's your jam.


Do you know of any relations between Sardior and Bahamut/Tiamt?

I would expect that relations between Sardior and Bahamut are limited and fairly cool but cordial. Tiamat probably ignores him except when trying to alternately exploit or subvert the Ruby Dragon.


I still don't see why Levistus got it so easy.

Who says he did?

[123456789blaaa]

*cries tears of joy*

IT HATH RETURNED! :smallbiggrin:

Are the Baatorians equivalent to the Obyriths (that is, born directly from the plane with no mortal souls involved) or like the Tanar'ri (that is, with mortal souls involved)?

Found an idea on the old Planeswalker site that seems interesting:

"I've always gotten a little bit of an Enuma Elish vibe out of the war between Chaos and Law - the Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider make a decent pair of (Babylonian) Tiamat/Kingu stand-ins, while the seven Wind Dukes correspond somewhat neatly to the seven winds that Marduk wielded. So I'm trying to play up the parallels there.
<snip>
So the eladrin having an outright hand in Obox-ob's downfall? Would fit in quite nicely to Chaos dividing itself much as the twin serpents of Law did. Specifically, it'd play to the Enuma Elish imagery again, putting Obox-ob in the place of Abzu, Kingu's murdered father and predecessor as Tiamat's consort. (And the eladrin or their predecessor(s) in the place of Ea, Marduk's father who had slain Abzu.)"

And here's a short Wiki snippet for context:

"Kingu, also spelled Qingu, meaning "unskilled laborer," was a god in Babylonian mythology, and — after the murder of his father Abzu — the consort of the goddess Tiamat, his mother, who wanted to establish him as ruler and leader of all gods before she was slain by Marduk. Tiamat gave Kingu the 3 Tablets of Destiny, which he wore as a breastplate and which gave him great power. She placed him as the general of her army. However, like Tiamat, Kingu was eventually slain by Marduk."

Babylonian Tiamat wa heavily associated with the primordial Chaos of creation (fits with her creating the first Tanar'ri no?). The name Tiamat also has been claimed to be cognate with Northwest Semitic tehom (תהום) (the deeps, abyss).

What do you think? Do you have your own ideas on expanding their fluff?

The goblinoid races are kind of...crappy. Would you give them any boosts like that one web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)did for kobolds.

My understanding is that a Demon Lord is a demon that has become Unique but doesn't control a Layer of the abyss. A Demon Prince on the other hand is a Demon Lord that has gained control of an Abyssal Layer. The devil equivalents are the titles of Duke and the Archduke. Do the other planes have this distinction between Uniques? How does this work considering IRRC none of the other planes can be bonded to and controlled in that way (or does Mechanus have that relationship with Primus?)?

Can natives of Planes besides the Outer Planes (elemental planes/astral/etc) attain Unique status? If so, how? Is this what the Archomentals are?

[afroakuma]

Are the Baatorians equivalent to the Obyriths (that is, born directly from the plane with no mortal souls involved) or like the Tanar'ri (that is, with mortal souls involved)?

They're definitely the latter, but it's pretty likely they're also the former.


What do you think? Do you have your own ideas on expanding their fluff?

I'm not sure whose fluff you're asking about. All you did was hurl stuff at me about Babylonian mythology, and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the Babylonian pantheon.


The goblinoid races are kind of...crappy. Would you give them any boosts like that one web article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)did for kobolds.

Ehh... I don't see a lot of reason to. Blues, definitely, since they get completely shafted for that +1 LA. I'd be more interested in racial weapons and suitable racial ACFs/prestige classes for goblinkind. Goblin rogues should all get Craven as a bonus feat, for instance. :smalltongue:


My understanding is that a Demon Lord is a demon that has become Unique but doesn't control a Layer of the abyss. A Demon Prince on the other hand is a Demon Lord that has gained control of an Abyssal Layer. The devil equivalents are the titles of Duke and the Archduke.

Lord of the Nine. Not all of them use the title "archduke."


Do the other planes have this distinction between Uniques?

They could, in theory, were it relevant. There are likely several unique archons, for example, that are not members of the Hebdomad, and so on and so forth. In practice, it's not relevant, since only Celestia, Baator and the Abyss have layer rulers.


Can natives of Planes besides the Outer Planes (elemental planes/astral/etc) attain Unique status?

I'd hardly call it a "status" but I don't see why not.


If so, how?

Who knows? It's not like there's a huge reference pool of examples to draw from.


Is this what the Archomentals are?

I'd say it's rather likely.

[Brookshw]

I hate gnomes.















No really, hate the little buggers, like, Afro death stare turned to max setting hate. But that's not a question so let's see: what evidence do we have as to Garl Glittergolds actual existence as opposed to actually being a carefully orcestrated gnome myth/illusion? Gnomes, what are they good for (good gods, ya'll!).

>%?#@}¿ gnomes.......

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
I'm not sure whose fluff you're asking about. All you did was hurl stuff at me about Babylonian mythology, and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the Babylonian pantheon.
<snip>

Basically that Real Life Babylonian mythology has a bunch of parallels to the dnd fluff about the Law/Chaos war and is thus fertile and interesting round for drawing inspiration on expanding the Law/Chaos war fluff. I'm asking whether you think the parallels (said in my above post) fit well or are just reaching badly. Also, whether you have better fluff in mind for the Law/Chaos war that goes in a different direction.

Hm, actually, does this count as being under the ban against talking about RL religion on this forum :smalleek:.

[Urpriest]

Was "unique being" a fairly precisely defined term in 2e (or prior)? Was it purely a game term, or would it have been used in-setting?

(I've always been under the impression that when 3.5 Gate specifies "unique beings" it was referring to a setting concept from previous editions that didn't explicitly get carried over.)

[afroakuma]

I hate gnomes.

Can't imagine why. Tinker gnomes are annoying, sure, but what's wrong with the others?


what evidence do we have as to Garl Glittergolds actual existence as opposed to actually being a carefully orcestrated gnome myth/illusion?

Other gods of serious power have met him. Now of course it's possible that all of the Lords of the Golden Hills are constructs-turned-deities...


ban

Yeah I think we'll just not nudge that particular line.


Was "unique being" a fairly precisely defined term in 2e (or prior)? Was it purely a game term, or would it have been used in-setting?

I suspect it came from the Frequency line in monster descriptions - Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare and Unique. Of course, that doesn't help us so much.

[Alleran]

You know how obyriths all look horrifyingly wrong? Well. :smallamused:
Horrifyingly right?

I remembered my original questions, too. Crystal spheres.

What's the largest size they can get up to? Solar system? Galaxy? Multiple galaxies? Pseudo-universal?

What's the smallest size? Sun + planet or two + distance to spherewall, or even smaller?

Is their size on the inside noticeable from the outside? Are some spheres "bigger on the inside"? Could they be measured by a spelljammer in the phlogiston?

If two crystal spheres were to bump into each other by some fluke (is it possible to engineer it?), what would happen on impact? Would they just bounce off each other and drift apart, would they implode, would a conjunction happen...?

On that Spelljammer flow chart, I spot "Thedas" (Dragon Age?) as well as Golarion (Pathfinder?). Are those fan-insertions, or are they actual worlds that just happen to have the same name?

[afroakuma]

Horrifyingly right?

You can't tell me that's not a horrifying concept. :smallcool:


What's the largest size they can get up to?

33.5 billion miles across is the largest sphere on record in Arcane Space.


Solar system?

Depends how you're deciding to measure that, but it's a reasonable notion.


Galaxy?

Pfft not even remotely close.


What's the smallest size?

Looks like roughly 1 billion miles. Maybe a hair under that.


Is their size on the inside noticeable from the outside?

If observation was that easy, then it would be theoretically possible. Of course you try telling me how many stories a building is by staring at its walls from an inch away. :smalltongue:


Are some spheres "bigger on the inside"?

No.


Could they be measured by a spelljammer in the phlogiston?

Again, theoretically, but you really wouldn't want to do that.


If two crystal spheres were to bump into each other by some fluke

I believe that's happened.


(is it possible to engineer it?)

Not for a Jedi.


what would happen on impact? Would they just bounce off each other and drift apart

There you go.


On that Spelljammer flow chart, I spot "Thedas" (Dragon Age?) as well as Golarion (Pathfinder?). Are those fan-insertions, or are they actual worlds that just happen to have the same name?

There are a lot of fan insertions on that chart.

[enderlord99]

Who says he did?

...So, he was frozen in an iceberg; but he wasn't just frozen in an iceberg.

Am I understanding that correctly?

[afroakuma]

...So, he was frozen in an iceberg; but he wasn't just frozen in an iceberg.

Am I understanding that correctly?

I don't see how that's insufficient, but sure.

[galan]

hooray for a new thread! i'vs read the previous ones (not finished yet though) and enjoyed them very much

Ssendam and Ygorl turned the slaad into colored frogs. Ignoring "true slaad" who are unaffected by this change (is it a thing?), is it likely to find another kind of slaadi? i mean, colored fish or colored birds as an uncreative example? i mean, can (not sure if its the right word in Limbo..) there be a new group of slaadi with common features who are not the MM slaadi?

[Gemini476]

Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies? I mean, what with the extremely large interstellar Prime and five dimensions and stack-of-plates infinite parallel realities and Outer Plane-creating Immortals and galaxies in the Elemental Planes and 2D Astral and "active" Draeden (they tend to leave things alone, but are still around and IIRC chat with the dragon rulers at time) and lack of gods and two-prong alignments (turning into five-prong Spheres when you get Immortal, with alignments ceasing to matter much) and whatnot?

Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows" and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree, Mystara, or Eberron) be, well, different? It's not an accusation or anything, I'm just wondering why you have the stance you have.

[Alleran]

You can't tell me that's not a horrifying concept. :smallcool:
I can, but it'd be a lie.

The Refuge of Colour in the Plane of Radiance has as its rulers "King Black and Queen White" - the Inner Planes book describes them as unique in all the multiverse ("regal, birdlike humanoids"), and almost godlike in power. Is there anything more in particular that you know of them (any other places that detail them in any kind of specifics), or could speculate on? Are they similar in power to entities like demon lords, Lords of the Nine or Archomentals?

[Larkas]

...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies? I mean, what with the extremely large interstellar Prime and five dimensions and stack-of-plates infinite parallel realities and Outer Plane-creating Immortals and galaxies in the Elemental Planes and 2D Astral and "active" Draeden (they tend to leave things alone, but are still around and IIRC chat with the dragon rulers at time) and lack of gods and two-prong alignments (turning into five-prong Spheres when you get Immortal, with alignments ceasing to matter much) and whatnot?

Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows" and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree, Mystara, or Eberron) be, well, different? It's not an accusation or anything, I'm just wondering why you have the stance you have.

Ehm... I can't speak for Fro, but that's the stance 2E's Planescape has. Planescape is really the only "serious" multiversal campaign setting to exist in any version of D&D, and as such is considered the primary source regarding anything planar by pretty much anyone who's "seriously" talking about the Planes.

[afroakuma]

hooray for a new thread! i'vs read the previous ones (not finished yet though) and enjoyed them very much

Glad to hear it! Always fun to see a new fan.


Ssendam and Ygorl turned the slaad into colored frogs. Ignoring "true slaad" who are unaffected by this change (is it a thing?)

It's a thing.


is it likely to find another kind of slaadi? i mean, colored fish or colored birds as an uncreative example? i mean, can (not sure if its the right word in Limbo..) there be a new group of slaadi with common features who are not the MM slaadi?

There's nothing canonical to support it, but on the other hand whether or not they're bound by the Spawning Stone they're still slaad. If you wanted to roll with it, that's really all the justification you'd need; Ssendam and Ygorl were more concerned (if that's even the word) with the power and potential of other slaad. They weren't just really into Rainbow Connection. I doubt the Stone cares whether slaad are frogs as long as they're not exceeding the power threshold.


...How on earth do you handle all of the discrepancies?

I go mad. Rapidly. Repeatedly.


I mean, what with the Mystara stuff

If you're very devoted to that sort of thing, you're of course welcome to ignore me and my position. Most of Mystara's features can be reasonably recontextualized as unique features of, for instance, its coterminous astral region, or its region of arcane space (the Mystaran Cluster) and sphere wall. It shares gods and demon lords with the rest of the multiverse, even though the rules they operate under are different within the sphere (a function of Mystara's overdeity), and if that makes them function as Immortals, well, Mystara's demonstrably valuable enough to such beings to play by those rules (note how many new Immortals ascend within that world). There's also cross-pollination in the other direction; draedens exist in the Great Wheel cosmology, and other entities from Mystara and the BECMI rules do as well. It seems reasonable to me that Mystara is connected to the Great Wheel somehow, and not merely as an alternate Prime.


Is there any reason you're not going with the 3E-provided shortcut of "oh, and you can visit alternate cosmologies through the Plane of Shadows"

I find it lazy. Mind you, I don't use Eberron or Mystara, so...


and letting themore differentcosmologies (like 3E FR's world tree

No, that one's a load of crap. FR is an integral component of Planescape, and honestly I'd say vice-versa with regard to a fair chunk of its fiction.


The Refuge of Colour in the Plane of Radiance has as its rulers "King Black and Queen White" - the Inner Planes book describes them as unique in all the multiverse ("regal, birdlike humanoids"), and almost godlike in power. Is there anything more in particular that you know of them (any other places that detail them in any kind of specifics), or could speculate on? Are they similar in power to entities like demon lords, Lords of the Nine or Archomentals?

That mention is all that has been written on them, but it's likely they're cognate to archomentals or else demigods of a sort.

[Brookshw]

So after a completely accidental exchange with Eldan earlier in the Law/Chaos thread I ended up poking around Warriors of Heaven and something I hadn't recall jumped out at me for all the wrong reasons. It mentioned that a fallen celestial could be transformed into a Nupperibo, which surprised me. I guess with enough wibbly wobbly evily weevily you can take a creature of pure good (if a fallen celestial could be called pure good at that point) and turn it into pure evil but seemed off, especially in that Nupperibo's are kinda kill on sight. I suspect this is mostly an edition issue but figured I'd bring it up since it's peaked my curiosity. What would a fallen celestial turned Nupperibo then allowed to fully develop result in :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

So after a completely accidental exchange with Eldan earlier in the Law/Chaos thread I ended up poking around Warriors of Heaven

Oh that's rarely a good idea


It mentioned that a fallen celestial could be transformed into a Nupperibo, which surprised me.

Well I mean, theoretically if they're not doing it hands-on and it loses enough power... but honestly, I'd say it doesn't ever happen and that the writer just looked at a list and said "oh hey that works."


What would a fallen celestial turned Nupperibo then allowed to fully develop result in :smallconfused:

A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all.

[Larkas]

If you're very devoted to that sort of thing, you're of course welcome to ignore me and my position. Most of Mystara's features can be reasonably recontextualized as unique features of, for instance, its coterminous astral region, or its region of arcane space (the Mystaran Cluster) and sphere wall. It shares gods and demon lords with the rest of the multiverse, even though the rules they operate under are different within the sphere (a function of Mystara's overdeity), and if that makes them function as Immortals, well, Mystara's demonstrably valuable enough to such beings to play by those rules (note how many new Immortals ascend within that world). There's also cross-pollination in the other direction; draedens exist in the Great Wheel cosmology, and other entities from Mystara and the BECMI rules do as well. It seems reasonable to me that Mystara is connected to the Great Wheel somehow, and not merely as an alternate Prime.

Myself, I'm a fan of the theory that says that the Mystaran multiverse is the Great Wheel displaced in time. Specifically, it's the GW way back in the past. Is that theory yours, Fro? I vividly remember it from a past thread.

[Deadline]

A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all.

On that note, what happens to fallen celestials or risen fiends in general? Do they mostly spend eternity in a conflicted state (i.e. made up of the stuff of one alignment, but clinging to the opposing alignment?), or do they gravitate towards the plane of their chosen alignment, and slowly change into a different kind of exemplar?

[afroakuma]

Myself, I'm a fan of the theory that says that the Mystaran multiverse is the Great Wheel displaced in time. Specifically, it's the GW way back in the past. Is that theory yours, Fro? I vividly remember it from a past thread.

Indeedy. Always liked that conceit.


On that note, what happens to fallen celestials or risen fiends in general? Do they mostly spend eternity in a conflicted state (i.e. made up of the stuff of one alignment, but clinging to the opposing alignment?), or do they gravitate towards the plane of their chosen alignment, and slowly change into a different kind of exemplar?

They're entities made of X who believe in Y. It's a tough existence. There's a transformation, yes, but it's not a transformation into a particular kind of being, but rather more like... out of a particular kind of being.

[Brookshw]

Oh that's rarely a good idea Oh I don't know, its got somethings down pat and others are.......interesting let's say. Honestly I'm probably going to reread it now so if you're not interested in questions on it just say the word.




Well I mean, theoretically if they're not doing it hands-on and it loses enough power... but honestly, I'd say it doesn't ever happen and that the writer just looked at a list and said "oh hey that works." Honestly it did strike me as a hands on approach but your probably spot on regards to the writer not digging into it too deeply.



[
A baatorian. A fallen celestial turned mane could eventually become a balor, after all. Well that's rather disappointing, seems like a good excuse for some gobbldy-****. Ah well, them's the breaks I suppose. Edit: wait, I get ancient baatorians were pretty powerful, but should I take from this they're on par with Balors?

BTW, still very curious about your head Canon as relates to what's in the ghoresh chasm under the seal.

[afroakuma]

Oh I don't know, its got somethings down pat and others are.......interesting let's say. Honestly I'm probably going to reread it now so if you're not interested in questions on it just say the word.

Let's just say it's not a book I'm very friendly to. Because it's very very stupid.


Edit: wait, I get ancient baatorians were pretty powerful, but should I take from this they're on par with Balors?

Some would be, yes. They were apparently quite terrifying.


BTW, still very curious about your head Canon as relates to what's in the ghoresh chasm under the seal.

Ever wondered why there's no evil counterpart to angels?

[enderlord99]

So, what would be the optimal adverb preceding "right" for Aeons and "wrong" for Howdoihighlighttextthisissupposedtobeblack?

Gloriously? Wonderfully?

[Tovec]

Ever wondered why there's no evil counterpart to angels?

I have and every attempt to get a reason from you has been met with less than encouraging replies.

Why are there no evil counterparts to angels? Or law, or chaotic ones for that matter?

...


I'll go back to lurking now.

[Eldan]

Personally, I just shrugged and made solars and their ilk alignmentless and open to all gods. But that's Eldacanon.

[Brookshw]

Ever wondered why there's no evil counterpart to angels?

Heh, you've been dangling that bait for a while now :smallbiggrin:
Though I still have to wonder whether it's possibly some additional plane or layer housing them (deep in homebrew territory).

Now who's the prisoner in Elysium.....so many powerful things the celestials would want to keep under wraps or have "disappeared" from the cosmology.....

[afroakuma]

I have and every attempt to get a reason from you has been met with less than encouraging replies.

Why are there no evil counterparts to angels?

Did I not just imply the answer? :smallconfused:


Now who's the prisoner in Elysium.....so many powerful things the celestials would want to keep under wraps or have "disappeared" from the cosmology.....

I rather like my own personal headcanon on it... but canonically there's really nothing to work with.

[Gemini476]

Myself, I'm a fan of the theory that says that the Mystaran multiverse is the Great Wheel displaced in time. Specifically, it's the GW way back in the past. Is that theory yours, Fro? I vividly remember it from a past thread.
Are you aware of the possibly-retconned-I-can't-remember thing from the Immortals box set where Mystara (http://pandius.com/master-outer-world-colour.png)(or Urt the Megalith, I suppose?) is Earth from the Jurassic era (http://www.scotese.com/late1.htm)?

Yeah, I can certainly see some support for Mystara being from a long long time ago.

(Let's ignore how Oerth's Earth is apparently the same one from X2 and Ed Greenwood goes drinking with the Wizards Three and whatnot. Mystara was always rather extremely schizophrenic.)

[Brookshw]

I rather like my own personal headcanon on it... but canonically there's really nothing to work with.

Well sure, I know the Canon is [insert dm plot hook here], but you're headcanon tends to be fun, interesting, and have a base in Canon so its an interesting puzzle. A baernloth? An ancient baatorian? Possibly an old ruler of hell? The access point for Pandorym's body? Something from mythology? There's a big list of possibilities and its kind of a fun way to test Canon knowledge.

Or in other words, interested in playing 20 questions? :smallbiggrin:

[enderlord99]

Why are there no evil counterparts to angels?

There used to be. They were sealed under the Ghoresh Chasm because of the Blood War. This isn't quite canon, but it's really close.

[ThisIsZen]

I don't know whether this falls within the scope of the thread or not, because it's not actually a question about canon, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Feel free to ignore it if it's not on topic.

In my setting, I found a couple of the canon Archdevils (essentially anyone who ruled Malbolge) to be dull and uninteresting, and also found Bensozia's death rather trite, so I elevated her to Lord of the Sixth. What I'm curious about, however, is what would happen if Bensozia remained entirely the same, but Levistus' attempt to kill her failed (for whatever reason).

What change in Baator would we see if we change this one variable, at least in your opinion, all other things being the same?

[Twilightwyrm]

I don't know whether this falls within the scope of the thread or not, because it's not actually a question about canon, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Feel free to ignore it if it's not on topic.

In my setting, I found a couple of the canon Archdevils (essentially anyone who ruled Malbolge) to be dull and uninteresting, and also found Bensozia's death rather trite, so I elevated her to Lord of the Sixth. What I'm curious about, however, is what would happen if Bensozia remained entirely the same, but Levistus' attempt to kill her failed (for whatever reason).

What change in Baator would we see if we change this one variable, at least in your opinion, all other things being the same?

Not sure what Afro's opinion on this would be, but it would seem to me not much would change. Remember, even if Levistus failed to kill her, consort or no, Asmodeus seems to like to run things pretty tight in Baator. There may be some changes to the Sixth layer (given she's governing it and all), but especially because she was/is his consort, Asmodeus would be strictly monitoring any activity of hers, and stepping in to take...corrective measures should she attempt to change anything in the broader scope of Baator that he does not approve of.

[afroakuma]

Or in other words, interested in playing 20 questions? :smallbiggrin:

That sounds fun. Bring it on!

[ThisIsZen]

Not sure what Afro's opinion on this would be, but it would seem to me not much would change. Remember, even if Levistus failed to kill her, consort or no, Asmodeus seems to like to run things pretty tight in Baator. There may be some changes to the Sixth layer (given she's governing it and all), but especially because she was/is his consort, Asmodeus would be strictly monitoring any activity of hers, and stepping in to take...corrective measures should she attempt to change anything in the broader scope of Baator that he does not approve of.

Well to be fair, I'm not asking about the ramifications of elevating Bensozia to Archdevil, just of her surviving Levistus' attempt on her life. The changes I made to Baator beyond Bensozia herself are sweeping, so any discussion of my Baator falls completely out of the scope of this thread.

I was largely curious whether this would have any effect on the War in Hell, whose actual name I can't recall, the one that resulted in the Hag Countess among other things, but if it changes any other dynamics, that's also interesting. It may be just too small to matter, tho.

[afroakuma]

Are you aware of the possibly-retconned-I-can't-remember thing

Doesn't ring a bell, but then I have a tendency to ignore things involving "real Earth."


Yeah, I can certainly see some support for Mystara being from a long long time ago.

The canon gives support for the concept that 1E was a past configuration of the multiverse, or contained within it the past; 2E was a large swath of material beyond that, and 3E has been only pretty recent.


I don't know whether this falls within the scope of the thread or not

Just about anything does, really.


In my setting, I found a couple of the canon Archdevils (essentially anyone who ruled Malbolge) to be dull and uninteresting

That's probably because they're dull and uninteresting. Malbolge is really boring as Hells go.


What I'm curious about, however, is what would happen if Bensozia remained entirely the same, but Levistus' attempt to kill her failed (for whatever reason).

What change in Baator would we see if we change this one variable, at least in your opinion, all other things being the same?

Levistus would be all kinds of hilariously dead. Geryon would probably continue to rule over Stygia. Glasya wouldn't have her own layer... yet.

[Brookshw]

That sounds fun. Bring it on!

Hehe, I thought so too!

Q1: Does it originate in 2e or later editions?
Q2: Does it originate from a specific campaign setting other than Planescape?

[afroakuma]

Hehe, I thought so too!

Q1: Does it originate in 2e or later editions?

Not sure how to answer.


Q2: Does it originate from a specific campaign setting other than Planescape?

No.

[Brookshw]

Not sure how to answer. Hmmm, so do we call these wasted questions or allow for revised questions? If the former, okay, not a problem. If the latter: revised Q1: Is it's first D&D appearance in 2e or later editions?


I'll throw up more questions once we figure out the rule for non-answerable questions.

[afroakuma]

Q1: Is it's first D&D appearance in 2e or later editions?

Not sure how to answer.

If it's a non-answer, you get to go again.

[Brookshw]

Not sure how to answer.

If it's a non-answer, you get to go again.

Okay. Revised-revised-Q1: Does it originate from D&D?

[afroakuma]

Okay. Revised-revised-Q1: Does it originate from D&D?

Not sure how to answer. :smallconfused:

[Brookshw]

Not sure how to answer. :smallconfused:

Huh, okay.....last question before I switch tracks completely then. Is it from real world mythology?

[afroakuma]

Huh, okay.....last question before I switch tracks completely then. Is it from real world mythology?

I'm going to try answering no. I think I can safely say no.

[Brookshw]

I'm going to try answering no. I think I can safely say no.

Okay, phew, that was more difficult than I expected.

Q3: Does it originally hail from the lower planes?

[afroakuma]

Q3: Does it originally hail from the lower planes?

No. Still no...

[Larkas]

Q4: Does it predate the Great Wheel?

[afroakuma]

Q4: Does it predate the Great Wheel?

Hope Brookshw is okay with people stealing his questions. :smallbiggrin:

No.

[Brookshw]

Hope Brookshw is okay with people stealing his questions. :smallbiggrin:
Sure, 20 questions is usually a group game after all.

Q5. Is it from an inner or transitive plane?

[afroakuma]

Sure, 20 questions is usually a group game after all.

Q5. Is it from an inner or transitive plane?

Nope. Try again.

[Brookshw]

Nope. Try again.

Hmmmm,.....so prime, upper, or neutral plane unless maybe predating the great wheel which it doesn't which should preclude many divine elements, old ones etc, nothing from a setting book (thank gods) unless its planescape. Divide by zero on two origination questions. Not from real world mythology. Could be from a non plane but I think most predate the great wheel,.....sorta.

Okay then, I feel a bit silly but,

Q6: Is it a creature?

[afroakuma]

Hmmmm,.....so prime, upper, or neutral plane unless maybe predating the great wheel which it doesn't which should preclude many divine elements, old ones etc, nothing from a setting book (thank gods) unless its planescape. Divide by zero on two origination questions. Not from real world mythology. Could be from a non plane but I think most predate the great wheel,.....sorta.

Okay then, I feel a bit silly but,

Q6: Is it a creature?

Yes! Hooray, we're off to a better start!

[Larkas]

I was going to ask exactly the same question as Q6, Brook! XD

Very stupid Q7: is it usually regarded as a male?

[Alleran]

Levistus would be all kinds of hilariously dead.
Is there a reason why he isn't all kinds of hilariously dead right now? I mean, he's imprisoned in a giant block of ice, but there's at least a remote chance he might get out someday. It seems like trying and failing isn't all that worse than trying and succeeding, because the success really, really got the Lord Below furious.

[afroakuma]

Very stupid Q7: is it usually regarded as a male?

Not able to answer.

[Brookshw]

Not able to answer.

Huh, okay then. You've got quite the puzzle here.

A creature of undetermined sex not from the lower planes, fiends want to get to it for some reason and guardinals keep it imprisoned or possibly protected.

Revised-Q7: Is it an outsider?

[*.*.*.*]

Planning a Shyft character, can you tell me of any Ethereal creatures that the character could be descended from? Also, any Ethereal settlements? Who are the 'Must knows' of the Ethereal?

[Lord_Gareth]

Is there a reason why he isn't all kinds of hilariously dead right now? I mean, he's imprisoned in a giant block of ice, but there's at least a remote chance he might get out someday. It seems like trying and failing isn't all that worse than trying and succeeding, because the success really, really got the Lord Below furious.

I believe the most popular theory is that, as much as Asmodeus wants to splatter Levistus against a wall, he's saving the Frozen Duke for his daughter to kill.

[Brookshw]

I believe the most popular theory is that, as much as Asmodeus wants to splatter Levistus against a wall, he's saving the Frozen Duke for his daughter to kill.

I like that theory personally, a very literal keeping him on ice / revenge is a dish best served cold, and a cruel waiting period while L sits there powerless to escape the inevitable.

[Tragak]

Is there a reason why he isn't all kinds of hilariously dead right now? I mean, he's imprisoned in a giant block of ice, but there's at least a remote chance he might get out someday. It seems like trying and failing isn't all that worse than trying and succeeding, because the success really, really got the Lord Below furious. I like to think that Asmodeus is showing the System to be more important than the Individual: Asmodeus may be torturing Levistus personally, but the Lord of Stygia has not been relieved of his responsibility to serve the Lord of the Nine.

[enderlord99]

Q8: Does it have an alignment other than Animalistic True Neutral?

And, if yes:

Q9: Does its alignment match that of its plane of origin?

[ThisIsZen]

The other implication of Glasya's entry from Fiendish Codex as I recall is that while it's basically an open secret that Levistus killed Bensozia, and the evidence is damning enough to justify being sealed inside a continent-sized iceberg, there isn't actually any proof, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This is even a condition Asmodeus has placed on Glasya - she will absolutely be permitted to kill Levistus, but only if she can find absolutely incontrovertible evidence of his crimes.

Seems to me like it's a case of the fluff actually really heavily supporting the idea of Baator being a plane of LAW as much as evil. Asmodeus certainly could paint Levistus all over Stygia, as I imagine could his daughter, but that wouldn't be an act in accordance with the Law of Hell, whatever those laws may be.

[afroakuma]

Revised-Q7: Is it an outsider?

Yes.


Planning a Shyft character, can you tell me of any Ethereal creatures that the character could be descended from? Also, any Ethereal settlements? Who are the 'Must knows' of the Ethereal?

Hm. That you could claim descent from is actually difficult, since they concocted the shyft before remembering that candidates for that were very poor indeed. I suppose that the terithran and the nathri are humanoid enough... xill are also native to the Ethereal Plane, but shyfts look nothing like them. Perhaps an Ethereal-linked tribe such as ghost elves?


Q8: Does it have an alignment other than Animalistic True Neutral?

Yes.


Q9: Does its alignment match that of its plane of origin?

No.

[*.*.*.*]

Hm. That you could claim descent from is actually difficult, since they concocted the shyft before remembering that candidates for that were very poor indeed. I suppose that the terithran and the nathri are humanoid enough... xill are also native to the Ethereal Plane, but shyfts look nothing like them. Perhaps an Ethereal-linked tribe such as ghost elves?



If I'm not entirely wrong, planetouched can also be products of a plane 'tainting' a bloodline, right? I read on Greywiki that Xill keep a demi-plane of human thralls as incubators. That could work

[Brookshw]

Hmmm,

Q10: does it originate from an upper plane?

If and only if the answer to 10 is yes, Q11: Is it considered fallen? Please disregard question 11 if the answer to 10 was no.

[Tovec]

Did I not just imply the answer? :smallconfused:
You imply they are locked behind a seal, or however that works, but that doesn't explain how they got there in the first place. It doesn't imply or explain anything about them, except they are an evil version of angels. It doesn't really answer any questions I have about them. It answers only 'that' they are sealed. Not who, what, where, when, why, or even how.

Also, are there chaotic and lawful versions? Why or why not?

[enderlord99]

You imply they are locked behind a seal, or however that works, but that doesn't explain how they got there in the first place. It doesn't imply or explain anything about them, except they are an evil version of angels. It doesn't really answer any questions I have about them. It answers only 'that' they are sealed. Not who, what, where, when, why, or even how.

Probably here (http://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/ghoresh-chasm). I don't think it's "official," though.

[afroakuma]

If I'm not entirely wrong, planetouched can also be products of a plane 'tainting' a bloodline, right?

Correct.


Hmmm,

Q10: does it originate from an upper plane?

Yes.


Q11: Is it considered fallen?

Yes.

[Brookshw]

You imply they are locked behind a seal, or however that works, but that doesn't explain how they got there in the first place. It doesn't imply or explain anything about them, except they are an evil version of angels. It doesn't really answer any questions I have about them. It answers only 'that' they are sealed. Not who, what, where, when, why, or even how.

Also, are there chaotic and lawful versions? Why or why not?

Hmmm, I think he answered this back in thread three

My own take is that the Blood War has caused their shadowy counterparts to conceal themselves and wait for its conclusion, and that these beings -anathemas - await beyond the great seal at the bottom of the Ghoresh Chasm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?299450-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-III!/page6).

I gather from this they did it to themselves basically to wait for evil to get its act together so they can be ready for the war on the upper planes. Does leave room still to wonder where they come from but answers a few of your questions I think.

As to the chaos version, its not a great answer but with the capping of spawns in limbo by the slaad lords the possibility for chaos angels may have been temporarily suspended from the cosmos. Of course, angels being servants, it seems like the pure chaotic (slaad) don't want them, the demons have their own thing going and "good" already has its angels so all avenues seem closed off. Law angels already have modrons and inevitables, the latter of which seem to serve the function quite well and have a pretty high power threshhold since they'll be redpawned. The forge elders seem to prefer this so again, who would make them?
Just speculation on my part.

Q12: was it active at any point in hells hierarchy?

[afroakuma]

You imply they are locked behind a seal, or however that works, but that doesn't explain how they got there in the first place.

Indeed it does not. No such explanation is available. Nothing exists in canon to describe what is being talked about.


It doesn't imply or explain anything about them, except they are an evil version of angels.

See above.


It doesn't really answer any questions I have about them.

That is because, canonically, there is nothing to know. The question that was posed to me was "what do you think is under the seal?" I fail to see how my providing an opinion answer to an opinion question is somehow at issue.


Q12: was it active at any point in hells hierarchy?

No.

[Svata]

Q13: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of any of the planes (to whatever point they have one)?

(Ignore if answer to Q13 was no) Q14: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of any of the lower planes?

(Ignore if answer to Q13 was no) Q15: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of origin its plane of origin?


(Edited for better order/wording)

[afroakuma]

Q13: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of any of the planes (to whatever point they have one)?

Not able to answer.

[Brookshw]

I keep toying with it being miksa but that doesn't make much sense......
Has to be something with enough power the guardinals, and maybe all good forces, fearing its power enough not to just give it the boot when it fell. It's a creature and not a portal to some other prison.....unlikely to be divine......

Revised Q13: was its fall during or prior to the law/chaos war?

[afroakuma]

Revised Q13: was its fall during or prior to the law/chaos war?

Yes. Mathematician's answer!

[Brookshw]

For those playing along from home (and so I can consider the scope of questions and answers easily)
For those just joining, a friendly game of 20 questions for the community, the question is, what is the prisoner in Elysium according to Afro's headcanon (there's no actual canon). What is known from canon is the something is a "prisoner" and fiends keep trying to get in. Here's the tracking for questions. Questions that couldn't be answered allow(ed) a re-question, re-questions will be notated alphabetically, so if Q1 fails, Q1a is the first replacement, if Q1a fails, Q1b is the next replacement. Afro's responses in bold
Q1: Does it originate in 2e or later editions? Not sure how to answer.
Q1a: Is it's first D&D appearance in 2e or later editions? Not sure how to answer.
Q1b: Does it originate from D&D? Not sure how to answer.
Q1c: Is it from real world mythology? I'm going to try answering no. I think I can safely say no.
Q2: Does it originate from a specific campaign setting other than Planescape? No.
Q3: Does it originally hail from the lower planes? No.
Q4: Q4: Does it predate the Great Wheel? No.
Q5: Is it from an inner or transitive plane? Nope. Try again.
Q6: Is it a creature? Yes! Hooray, we're off to a better start!
Q7: is it usually regarded as a male? Not able to answer.
Q7a: Is it an outsider? Yes.
Q8: Does it have an alignment other than Animalistic True Neutral? Yes.
Q9: Does its alignment match that of its plane of origin? No.
Q10: does it originate from an upper plane? Yes.
Q11: Is it considered fallen? Yes.
Q12: was it active at any point in hells hierarchy? No.
Q13: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of any of the planes (to whatever point they have one)? Not able to answer.
Q13a: was its fall during or prior to the law/chaos war? Yes.



Edit: Interesting Afro, I definitely think at this point I'm going to need to crack some books for reference. No, must resist temptation. Canon knowledge challenge!

[afroakuma]

Edit: Interesting Afro, I definitely think at this point I'm going to need to crack some books for reference. No, must resist temptation. Canon knowledge challenge!

You're running out of questions quickly.

[Brookshw]

You're running out of questions quickly.

Very true. Once I hit 15 complete questions I'll pull out the books.

Crossing my fingers I don't need to break out On Hallowed Ground to track this down.....

[afroakuma]

Very true. Once I hit 15 complete questions I'll pull out the books.

Crossing my fingers I don't need to break out On Hallowed Ground to track this down.....

You could probably use questions to make your life easier...

/InterrogativeXayide

[enderlord99]

Q14: Is it mentioned anywhere in a canon book that does not directly call it the Prisoner of Elysium?

[afroakuma]

Q14: Is it mentioned anywhere in a canon book that does not directly call it the Prisoner of Elysium?

No. Good question indeed.

[Bad Wolf]

Not sure if this is the right place, but here it goes: Why is the written form of Abyssal based on Infernal, rather then the other way around? From what I remember, demons existed long before demons. Oh, and here's another: What was the very first plane to exist/form?

[afroakuma]

Not sure if this is the right place, but here it goes: Why is the written form of Abyssal based on Infernal, rather then the other way around?

Demons are chaotic; they would have had less use for the written word.


Oh, and here's another: What was the very first plane to exist/form?

Unknown. It might have been the Outlands, or the Astral Plane, or perhaps the Ethereal. You could argue the Far Realm, but it's not actually a plane.

[CRtwenty]

Is it true that Quadrones are the only type of Modron that can go rogue? If so why is this the case?

In regards to Mystara it's said that there are "Old Ones" (or "Great Ones" I can't remember the exact term) that are to the Immortals what the Immortals are to regular Mortals and exist beyond the boundary that marks the edge of the known multiverse of Mystara. Just as Mortals can ascend to Immortality through various trials, Immortals can ascend to Old One status by accomplishing trials of their own.

How do you fit these guys into a unified cosmology where Mystara is part of the main Prime Material Plane of the Great Wheel? Would the Old Ones be Powers? Something else? What about a regular Immortal that managed to get into the Great Wheel proper? You'd think they'd be Quasi Deities, if not Demi-Gods at least.

[Brookshw]

Well now, Q14's answer is interesting......

Q15: does it possess more than a primal or animal level of intelligence?

[afroakuma]

Is it true that Quadrones are the only type of Modron that can go rogue? If so why is this the case?

No; rather, rogue modrons are "standardized" into quadrones when they go rogue.


"Old Ones"

The Old Ones are beyond the Great Wheel. They were already old when the multiverse had not yet begun.


Well now, Q14's answer is interesting......

Q15: does it possess more than a primal or animal level of intelligence?

Yes.

[LOTRfan]

No; rather, rogue modrons are "standardized" into quadrones when they go rogue.

Is there a reason that this happens?

[Smorgonoffz]

I was so sad whe i saw the previous one closed, now i'm happier than ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!.


1) [...] You could argue the Far Realm, but it's not actually a plane. [...]

What do you mean with that?( if it's already answered/explained, if possible link me to the tread).


2) Are the old ones/great ones of mystara linked to the far realm? the age before ages?


3)What's the difference between an immortal and a power?

4) did immortals already exist during the war of law and chaos?


5) any idea where i can find cool images of Mishka and the queen of chaos?

6) It's canon that the Yugoloth created the Obyrith and ancient baatorians?

[Brookshw]

Ugh......I really want to guess the maeldur but I'm not completely convinced.

Double ugh, that would probably violate 14. So something non-canon pretty much. Hmm....

[Larkas]

The worst part is that it's not based on real mythologies. I was ready to guess "Asmodeus' body" here!

[Urpriest]

Ugh......I really want to guess the maeldur but I'm not completely convinced.

Double ugh, that would probably violate 14. So something non-canon pretty much. Hmm....

You've still got a little room to narrow things down. You know it's from the upper planes, you could try a binary search. "Is it from chaos-wards of Elysium, is it law-wards of Arborea, etc." Asking whether it is or was an exemplar could also be useful.

[Brookshw]

You've still got a little room to narrow things down. You know it's from the upper planes, you could try a binary search. "Is it from chaos-wards of Elysium, is it law-wards of Arborea, etc." Asking whether it is or was an exemplar could also be useful.

Good suggestions certainly though I'm worried about the non-canon status if that's a safe assumption based on 14. It's from the upper planes, fallen, intelligent, non-mythology. I think a lot of questions were spent trying to figure it out based on the assumption it existed or at least would be referenced in canon. Definitely need to give this some thought before spending further questions on it.

[Thurbane]

A.) Is there any particular layer of the Nine Hells that Osyluths are or are not associted with? Or are they found pretty much on any layer?

B.) Same question, with Bearded Devils.

Cheers - T

[afroakuma]

Is there a reason that this happens?

Not known, although it's probable that it matches their level of independence and adherence to order when leaving the fold.


I was so sad whe i saw the previous one closed, now i'm happier than ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Yeah, it's good to be back :smallbiggrin:


What do you mean with that?( if it's already answered/explained, if possible link me to the tread).

I mean the Far Realm's not a plane. What part is confusing you?


2) Are the old ones/great ones of mystara linked to the far realm?

No.


the age before ages?

They existed during that time as well, but also before it.


3)What's the difference between an immortal and a power?

Depends on who you're asking. I refer to you the Vaults of Pandius (http://pandius.com/) for further information on them and their setting.


4) did immortals already exist during the war of law and chaos?

Sure, why not.


5) any idea where i can find cool images of Mishka and the queen of chaos?

Don't know about cool pictures, they both look ridiculous, but... this is a reasonable image of the Queen of Chaos (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140622145703/forgottenrealms/images/9/94/Demon_queen_of_chaos.jpg) and here's one of Miska (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/images/e/e0/Miska02.jpg).


6) It's canon that the Yugoloth created the Obyrith and ancient baatorians?

It kind of wobbles back and forth. I don't bother with the issue.


I think a lot of questions were spent trying to figure it out based on the assumption it existed or at least would be referenced in canon.

Would have taken like one at the start to expedite that. Now you know why I had such a hard time answering :smalltongue:


A.) Is there any particular layer of the Nine Hells that Osyluths are or are not associted with? Or are they found pretty much on any layer?

A large contingent of them make up the main force of Mammon's personal army. They're also noted on Phlegethos and Stygia. Really, though, they'll be found most anywhere.


B.) Same question, with Bearded Devils.

Anywhere. They're soldiers and guards; every layer has some use for them.

[Eldan]

Were the Yugoloth really ever linked with the Obyrith/Baatorians? As far as I know, they were only mentioned to have a link to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu.

[Brookshw]

Would have taken like one at the start to expedite that. Now you know why I had such a hard time answering :smalltongue:


Yes, well, as they say hindsight is a photo of one's self holding a sign saying "Hey stupid, remember when?".

Okay, so non-canon completely. Probably from a source prior to the mid 1990s (at least that's my guess based on 13a). Doesn't originate in D&D as far as I can tell based on Q1b so presumably that knocks off any D&D novel or pretty much anything related to D&D though it could have maybe been mentioned in something.

Q16: Is it from a popular story generally known?

Edit; Not sure I like this question but not sure I have anything better to go on at the moment.
Possible questions I'll hold onto for the moment: Would it hail from Arborea. Is it divine in nature. Is it a personification of a natural force. How much fumbling in the dark can a fumbling in the dark fumble.

Edit edit: okay, what else do we know. Presumably prison houses monsters of legend. So fallen monster of some import/stature, maybe, though that may have been thrown out the window. The first lycanthrope would be interesting but not sure why fiends would care and there may be some Canon on the topic..hmmm.

[afroakuma]

Were the Yugoloth really ever linked with the Obyrith/Baatorians? As far as I know, they were only mentioned to have a link to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu.

I believe something tried to, at least with the baatorians. I'll check up on it.


Probably from a source prior to the mid 1990s

I love how you're assuming there's a source.


Q16: Is it from a popular story generally known?

I don't know how to answer this except to suggest that there would be a popular conception of it which would, ultimately, have its roots in a small number of fairly popular stories.

[Brookshw]

I believe something tried to, at least with the baatorians. I'll check up on it. I thought hellbound had something on it? (from the lothy loth point of view at least).


I love how you're assuming there's a source. source? Heck I thought this was shuffled Canon from the get go.


I don't know how to answer this except to suggest that there would be a popular conception of it which would, ultimately, have its roots in a small number of fairly popular stories.

Okay, that's an answer. ish. A personification (could one even fall?)? An evil/soulless twin/family member (soulless outsider, no duality, erk)? Something animalistic?

Tick tock and all that. Ah heck.

Q17: Would you say its a personification or embodiment of an abstract concept?

[afroakuma]

I thought hellbound had something on it? (from the lothy loth point of view at least).

Obyriths weren't in the mix back then.


Q17: Would you say its a personification or embodiment of an abstract concept?

Interesting question. I wouldn't not say that. If that's not helpful enough to you, you can have a freebie. Very much a "yes and no" kind of thing, but then, that's what I like about the Planes. :smallcool:

[Werephilosopher]

Is the Far Realm in the same category of thing as the Great Wheel and other conventional cosmologies, just with completely alien laws and rules? Is it everything that is not the Great Wheel and the other conventional cosmologies? Or is there some other way (or no conventional way) to describe it?

What's the border between the Plane of Air and the Plane of Vacuum like? Does the air slowly get thinner and more still as one approaches the Vacuum? Is there a great windstorm of air being sucked into the Vacuum?

[Brookshw]

Interesting question. I wouldn't not say that. If that's not helpful enough to you, you can have a freebie. Very much a "yes and no" kind of thing, but then, that's what I like about the Planes. :smallcool:

/Mouth opens and closes a few times.

I'll think on it and get back to you. You do this on purpose, I swear!

Normal non-game question: Why are Pit Fiends so much stronger that Couatls? Blood of serpents and all that :smallconfused:

[afroakuma]

Is the Far Realm in the same category of thing as the Great Wheel and other conventional cosmologies, just with completely alien laws and rules?

No.


What's the border between the Plane of Air and the Plane of Vacuum like?

It's one of a small handful of borders about which we know nothing; someone got lazy by that point in the book, contradicted the past several sections and then added nothing new to the mix.


Normal non-game question: Why are Pit Fiends so much stronger that Couatls? Blood of serpents and all that :smallconfused:

Do you believe the myth of the Twin Serpents, then? :smallwink:

[Brookshw]

Do you believe the myth of the Twin Serpents, then? :smallwink: I'll answer by repeating some wisdom I heard earlier today.


I wouldn't not say that. Very much a "yes and no" kind of thing, but then, that's what I like about the Planes. :smallcool:
:smalltongue:

Anyway, back to business questions

For those just joining, a friendly game of 20 questions for the community, the question is, what is the prisoner in Elysium according to Afro's headcanon (there's no actual canon). What is known from canon is the something is a "prisoner" and fiends keep trying to get in. Here's the tracking for questions. Questions that couldn't be answered allow(ed) a re-question, re-questions will be notated alphabetically, so if Q1 fails, Q1a is the first replacement, if Q1a fails, Q1b is the next replacement. Afro's responses in bold
Q1: Does it originate in 2e or later editions? Not sure how to answer.
Q1a: Is it's first D&D appearance in 2e or later editions? Not sure how to answer.
Q1b: Does it originate from D&D? Not sure how to answer.
Q1c: Is it from real world mythology? I'm going to try answering no. I think I can safely say no.
Q2: Does it originate from a specific campaign setting other than Planescape? No.
Q3: Does it originally hail from the lower planes? No.
Q4: Q4: Does it predate the Great Wheel? No.
Q5: Is it from an inner or transitive plane? Nope. Try again.
Q6: Is it a creature? Yes! Hooray, we're off to a better start!
Q7: is it usually regarded as a male? Not able to answer.
Q7a: Is it an outsider? Yes.
Q8: Does it have an alignment other than Animalistic True Neutral? Yes.
Q9: Does its alignment match that of its plane of origin? No.
Q10: does it originate from an upper plane? Yes.
Q11: Is it considered fallen? Yes.
Q12: was it active at any point in hells hierarchy? No.
Q13: Was it ever active in the hierarchy of any of the planes (to whatever point they have one)? Not able to answer.
Q13a: was its fall during or prior to the law/chaos war? Yes.
Q14: Is it mentioned anywhere in a canon book that does not directly call it the Prisoner of Elysium? No.
Q15: does it possess more than a primal or animal level of intelligence? Yes.
Q16: Is it from a popular story generally known? I don't know how to answer this except to suggest that there would be a popular conception of it which would, ultimately, have its roots in a small number of fairly popular stories.
Q17: Would you say its a personification or embodiment of an abstract concept? Interesting question. I wouldn't not say that. If that's not helpful enough to you, you can have a freebie. Very much a "yes and no" kind of thing, but then, that's what I like about the Planes.
Q18: Is it sorta, kinda, some form of embodiment/personification of something that no longer exists elsewhere in the multiverse after the start of the Blood War? No.

[afroakuma]

Stalling won't save you. :smallamused:

[Brookshw]

Stalling won't save you. :smallamused:

You think there's something that can save me now? :smallwink:

Q18: Is it sorta, kinda, some form of embodiment/personification of something that no longer exists elsewhere in the multiverse after the start of the Blood War? My this is getting rather metaphysical

[afroakuma]

Q18: Is it sorta, kinda, some form of embodiment/personification of something that no longer exists elsewhere in the multiverse after the start of the Blood War?

No. Very no.

[Brookshw]

No.

Hurmm. I keep having things like "revenge" or "betrayal" float through my head but pretty abstract and probably not something that would be in the upper planes to begin with. Something like "peace" or "understanding" might be correct, but that's just,...no. Very no if you will. Something that may have rose in prominence during the course of the blood war.

Okay.....so let's see. Fiends discover additional planes to torment. Corruption of mortals. Souls doing soul stuff. Nothing from mythology. But what from the upper planes falls as a result of this? Something never ending perhaps for some value. I guess good and evil split depending on the edition but some pre good/evil creature who was an avatar of the merged two seems invalidated. Not a giant hydra. Fell during or prior to the law/chaos war. Crud. Did it fall between the shifting of the war from Law/Chaos to Blood war?

Q19: Did it fall in the transition from the Law/Chaos war to the Blood war but not during the full on Blood war? I may just pull that bonus question card....

[afroakuma]

Q19: Did it fall in the transition from the Law/Chaos war to the Blood war but not during the full on Blood war?

I think you might have misinterpreted one of my earlier answers:


Yes. Mathematician's answer!

...but in any event No.

[Gemini476]

So, Draeden. Draeden have this special ability that makes you see it as "the deadliest, most invulnerable being imaginable" if you fail to roll 1d100 under Wisdom. I think Wrath of the Immortals changed that to a Mental Attack save, which mortals do not have and thus instantly fail IIRC.

The Immortals box says that, and I quote, "mortal humans and demi-humans usually see them as huge dragons." (Wrath of the Immortals instead said "vast, unconquerable dragons".)

So what huge, all-consuming dragons are there out there that might actually be secret Draeden?
(Other than the obvious Draeden in the Abyss and the definitely-not-Draedens in the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, that is.)

[Brookshw]

I think you might have misinterpreted one of my earlier answers:



...but in any event No.

Nah, I've read all the white text. Regardless, quite the puzzle.

[afroakuma]

The Immortals box says that, and I quote, "mortal humans and demi-humans usually see them as huge dragons."

Mortal humans and demi-humans usually just up and die.


Nah, I've read all the white text. Regardless, quite the puzzle.

Sad thing is I think you basically brushed past what it is in a bid to figure out why

[Larkas]

Hmmmm... Could it be... The first exemplar to hold Talisid's post?

[afroakuma]

Hmmmm... Could it be... The first exemplar to hold Talisid's post?

I don't know that it's not, but I don't think so.

[Lord_Gareth]

Will you share your headcanon as to why the Prince of the Leonals is entrusted with the Prisoner?

[Brookshw]

Hmmmm... Could it be... The first exemplar to hold Talisid's post?

I debated that one as well, hard to say based on the evidence but an interesting question.

[afroakuma]

May as well finish. I'm here and await your final questions and guess. :smallcool:

[enderlord99]

Are erinyes capable of intercepting summoning/calling spells cast by mortals attempting to get a celestial (specifically an aasimon)? Are any other baatezu (or possibly yugoloths) capable of doing so, and also superficially appearing angelic?

I need the answer to help with speculation in the Fan Comics section.

[afroakuma]

Are erinyes capable of intercepting summoning/calling spells cast by mortals attempting to get a celestial (specifically an aasimon)? Are any other baatezu (or possibly yugoloths) capable of doing so, and also superficially appearing angelic?

Not as a general rule, no. Someone might have figured out a way to jack a summons, but it would be a very individual thing. As a species they have no such power. It's more likely that they're on the prowl and looking for idiots who think they're casting a summoning spell.

[Alleran]

Is there anything we know in particular, or that you have in your headcanon, about the original creator(s) of the Codex of the Infinite Planes?

And what it does or represents beyond the rules? It grants powers to the owner if their minds can handle learning the knowledge without going crazy, so is it a repository of knowledge? What do we know is actually written there? Records of how the planes function, their scope and details, perhaps?

It's been referred to as "Yagrax's Tome" - who was Yagrax?

[Brookshw]

May as well finish. I'm here and await your final questions and guess. :smallcool:

Well, I've been starring at the computer for half an hour puzzling over all the questions and little hints and admit I'm at a loss. Sooo......

Q20 [The Guess]: The Queen of Law?

Yes, a complete throw out wild guess, because.



Sad thing is I think you basically brushed past what it is in a bid to figure out why
Yeah, that's true. Probably because questions like "does it have scales" wouldn't be much help in figuring out which creature in Canon it was when the assumption was it existed in Canon.

Though the "does it have scales" 20 questions guess the monster version sounds like it would be fun as well.

[afroakuma]

Is there anything we know in particular, or that you have in your headcanon, about the original creator(s) of the Codex of the Infinite Planes?

Haven't given it much thought yet for my own headcanon, but canonical sources give no information except to suggest that no mortal could have crafted the thing. Surprise surprise.


And what it does or represents beyond the rules? It grants powers to the owner if their minds can handle learning the knowledge without going crazy, so is it a repository of knowledge? What do we know is actually written there? Records of how the planes function, their scope and details, perhaps?

If this is a topic of sufficient curiosity I may have to devote some time to creating content for it.


It's been referred to as "Yagrax's Tome" - who was Yagrax?

The idiot wizard-priest who sank the Isles of Woe with the tome, and its earliest recorded "owner" from Oerth/general canon.


Well, I've been starring at the computer for half an hour puzzling over all the questions and little hints and admit I'm at a loss. Sooo......

Q20 [The Guess]: The Queen of Law?

Snrk.


Yeah, that's true. Probably because questions like "does it have scales" wouldn't be much help in figuring out which creature in Canon it was when the assumption was it existed in Canon.

Yeah, the problem is that you were looking for an identity rather than just trying to suss out the nature of the thing. You were doomed from the outset.

However, since you (and others) were such a good sport about the game, I'm going to give you the answer regardless. Spoilered for anyone who doesn't want to know:

And once you know, you can't un-know.
Are you sure?

The First Fallen

[Brookshw]

BWAHAHAHA

I even considered that a while back and immediately discounted it. Ah well, fun game and I like your headcanon.

[afroakuma]

BWAHAHAHA

I even considered that a while back and immediately discounted it. Ah well, fun game and I like your headcanon.

I know you did. I watched it go zwooom as it passed. Ultimately, I think it's the best answer; it's certainly the most terrifying possibility that could reasonably be confined, and given what it is the embodiment of, it makes a ton of sense for them to keep it hidden. Also explains why Belierin sucks.

[Brookshw]

I know you did. I watched it go zwooom as it passed. Ultimately, I think it's the best answer; it's certainly the most terrifying possibility that could reasonably be confined, and given what it is the embodiment of, it makes a ton of sense for them to keep it hidden. Yeah, I can certainly see the logic
Also explains why Belierin sucks. there's a surprising amount of suckage on the plane in odd corners, like that funky graveyard a layer up. You'd think celestials might do something about that (or not, I can get why it is what it is).

any headcanon on why it, ya know. Also what was up with InterrogativeXayide, I did a fair amount of poking around on that one but don't see much of a connection though I haven't read the story in quite a while.

[afroakuma]

any headcanon on why

Nope. Of course, I have a fondness for Wrath.


Also what was up with InterrogativeXayide

Oh. I was trying to inveigle you into using up your questions and in doing so destroying yourself (figuratively). Like an interrogative version of Xayide.

[afroakuma]

Anyway, now that that's done with, let's have more questions!

[Urpriest]

What's the most evil thing Iggwilv did?

(Thinking about doing a fanfic in which she's the protagonist, want to figure out just how much needs to be rationalized.)

[Necroticplague]

What creatures are native to the reign of dreams? Is it any sleeping creature, since they exist in the world as they sleep? Do the creatures created as a part of a dream count as natives (I.e., you dream about an iron golem, does that both make your dream self and the iron golem natives, despite the golem not dreaming?).p

[afroakuma]

What's the most evil thing Iggwilv did?

(Thinking about doing a fanfic in which she's the protagonist, want to figure out just how much needs to be rationalized.)

Ehh... honestly, she's not done much. I suppose supplying armies of fiends to Iuz or waging war on Perrenland would both be kind of evil.

[Asrrin]

If Fharlanghn were prevented from accessing the Prime Material Plane, What location(s) would he make his home? I know he sometimes wanders some of the Elemental Planes, but surely there would be some places hospitable to him in the Outer Planes such as the Outlands or limbo.

[*.*.*.*]

Why is the Great Mother CE when her chosen race is LE? Not too mention, the Occular Adept requires NE or LE(which is 2 steps naway from her, thus should be unable to grab divine spells from).

[Brookshw]

Do you know it there's any truth to the rumored character Center-of-All? I don't think I've seen any references outside of Faces of Sigil.

Speaking of that book, what's with the arcane's/mercane's avoidance of Sigil? Something to do with the Planar Consortium? Seems like a great market opportunity (though maybe not so much the spelljammer helm business). I guess later there's union for them and doing business under a certain shadow might be a concern, but still...

[afroakuma]

What creatures are native to the reign of dreams?

None canonically, though you could certainly use dream element creatures (Dragon 287) and steal eidolons, hobs and spellshadows from Dal Quor easily enough (Dragon 324).


If Fharlanghn were prevented from accessing the Prime Material Plane, What location(s) would he make his home? I know he sometimes wanders some of the Elemental Planes, but surely there would be some places hospitable to him in the Outer Planes such as the Outlands or limbo.

I would imagine he could wander just about everywhere, but I feel like the Outlands and Shurrock are both just really good places for him. Ysgard wouldn't be out of sorts either.


Why is the Great Mother CE when her chosen race is LE?

She's an insane primal Abyssal entity and they don't usually worship her. No curing that level of crazy. A lot of her worship comes from beholder cults (i.e. cults based around beholders).


Not too mention, the Occular Adept requires NE or LE(which is 2 steps naway from her, thus should be unable to grab divine spells from).

The ocular adept is venerating the beholder that is serving as a proxy for the Great Mother's powers. The beholder is probably Lawful Evil.


Do you know it there's any truth to the rumored character Center-of-All? I don't think I've seen any references outside of Faces of Sigil.

Can't think of any other references offhand. Do you have the page number in Uncaged?


Speaking of that book, what's with the arcane's/mercane's avoidance of Sigil?

Page citation on that?

[Brookshw]

Can't think of any other references offhand. Do you have the page number in Uncaged? Sure do, mentioned under Rule of Three (pg. 86) and Unity of Rings (pg. 105).




Page citation on that? You got it, under Torholt (pg. 100, brief mention on the right column). This ones in a bit of a grey area as I could see it being parsed as to indicate particular arcane's that won't enter but its strange to call out any race at all rather than just "customers" (or whatever) that won't enter Sigil. (Likewise the idea there's a suitable enough number that avoid it as to justify mention I imagine would be pointing to something deeper,.....or is simply wrong).

[afroakuma]

Sure do, mentioned under Rule of Three (pg. 86) and Unity of Rings (pg. 105).

Yeah, no other references.


You got it, under Torholt (pg. 100, brief mention on the right column). This ones in a bit of a grey area as I could see it being parsed as to indicate particular arcane's that won't enter but its strange to call out any race at all rather than just "customers" (or whatever) that won't enter Sigil. (Likewise the idea there's a suitable enough number that avoid it as to justify mention I imagine would be pointing to something deeper,.....or is simply wrong).

No, it's quite correct. The arcane do not want to enter Sigil.

[Brookshw]

Yeah, no other references. Shame, sounded like a bit of flavorful fun.




No, it's quite correct. The arcane do not want to enter Sigil. Right, okay, so back to the "what's up with that"?

[afroakuma]

Shame, sounded like a bit of flavorful fun.

Well, it is. It would be unfun to distinctly identify something rather than leaving it as a rumor and option for DMs. That's the Planescape way. :smalltongue:


Right, okay, so back to the "what's up with that"?

The arcane don't like setting up permanent shops, trading with exemplars (particularly fiends), being separated from their network, or the possibility of ending up stranded without a way back out. Sigil isn't a good environment for them.

[afroakuma]

Five pages and stagnating already. Sadness.

[123456789blaaa]

Five pages and stagnating already. Sadness.

Been busy recently but I don't want this thread to die!:

The Blood Queen doesn't really seem to lend herself well to being used in-game. She doesn't really do anything. Do you have any ideas for incorporating her into the plot of a game?

From the PM you replied to me with (I'm quoting it):



Quick question: By non-dumb fluff, which creature types have souls?

There's been some talk over on the MinMaxBoards about creating more incarnum classes based on the various creature types. There's already Magical Beast (Totemist), Aberrations (Warpsouls), and Plants (Green Man). While I'd love to see more based on Elementals, Fey, Constructs, and Oozes, I'm not sure if the fluff would fit. Incarnum is soul energy after all.

Fey have souls. Elementals are "souls" = their essence is their body and vice versa. Constructs almost always do not have souls, but it's not impossible to install one. It wouldn't be native to the construct, though. Oozes also very rarely have souls; an ooze with a soul is more likely an aberration (such as a phasm).

Given that nature/lack of souls of these creature types, do you think Totemist-equivalents would be inappropriate from a fluff perspective?

Do all mindless creatures not have souls? If you raise ones intelligence, does it gain a soul?

Do all souls come from from the Positive Energy Plane? Including elemental souls/Obyrith souls/etc?

You've said previously that the Plane of Shadow-similar to the Para-elemental Planes- is a mixture of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. Now, before it was previously a demi-plane before becoming a full plane. Does this mean the Para/Quasi/etc Elemental Planes used to be demi-planes?

[Brookshw]

Five pages and stagnating already. Sadness.

Phirblas, dabus that know how to spell? How do they fit into things (conjecture is fine).

Also from the same book, scile, how much rainbow bright were the authors watching? Murky and lurky must be so proud. What is life like when you're drained of color?

[Eldan]

Hm. This is more a general sentiment and I don't really know how to put it into questions, but...

There was a thread about law and chaos in D&D that made me think about "weirdness". I sort of feel that all exemplars should be, to a degree, alien, but how even Planescape often does a bad job of showing them that way. Some come close, but in the end, all their motives feel remarkably human, sometimes, just bigger, grander. Which also makes sense, of course, given that they are born from human beliefs, but is also a bit disappointing sometimes.

So, I think a good starting question is: can you think of anything, preferably an exemplar, that is both good and utterly strange and alien in mindset?

[enderlord99]

So, I think a good starting question is: can you think of anything, preferably an exemplar, that is both good and utterly strange and alien
Well, there's the ancient equivalent to the eladrins, whatever they are...

in mindset?
...possibly.

[afroakuma]

Been busy recently but I don't want this thread to die!:

The Blood Queen doesn't really seem to lend herself well to being used in-game. She doesn't really do anything. Do you have any ideas for incorporating her into the plot of a game?

In what capacity? I could see using her in a game.


Given that nature/lack of souls of these creature types, do you think Totemist-equivalents would be inappropriate from a fluff perspective?

Yes.


Do all mindless creatures not have souls?

A creature which is naturally mindless does not have a soul. It has an animus, which is the spiritual equivalent of basic clockwork.


If you raise ones intelligence, does it gain a soul?

If I blast your Intelligence down to zero, your soul doesn't stop existing. A change in Intelligence is simply magic adding extra doodads to the functioning of the animus. Entities such as bacteria, protists, diatoms, microzooa, plankton, algae, hell even trees all have animi rather than souls. If a demon lord could just awaken a snack whenever desired, life would get quite silly. This is why awaken is transmutation rather than necromancy.


Do all souls come from from the Positive Energy Plane? Including elemental souls/Obyrith souls/etc?

Yes and no. In the sense that the Outer Planes are constituted via the Inner Planes, yes - but the soul of an Obyrith forms from the Abyss itself; it is not preincarnate in the Positive Energy Plane. Similarly, while it's likely that the existence of the Positive and Negative Planes had some strange influence on the Inner Planes, an elemental isn't "one part Positive in an element shell."


Does this mean the Para/Quasi/etc Elemental Planes used to be demi-planes?

No.


Phirblas, dabus that know how to spell? How do they fit into things (conjecture is fine).

I really have no headcanon on them yet. In the meantime, they're there to add to the mystery.


Also from the same book, scile, how much rainbow bright were the authors watching? Murky and lurky must be so proud. What is life like when you're drained of color?

Oh come on, how can you not like scile? Scile are awesome. And life sucks when they've had their way with you - you're not gray, you're transparent. Invisible. Light will not strike you. You can't even see yourself. Fortunately, if you have magic friends (you do, you went to the Plane of Radiance) it's fairly easily fixed, but until then you'll be fumbling around a lot.


So, I think a good starting question is: can you think of anything, preferably an exemplar, that is both good and utterly strange and alien in mindset?

Mercurial. Not an exemplar, but definitely an outsider and definitely alien. If we're just going for "good-aligned but alien," silthilar.

But really, I agree with you, I feel like people are too reductivist when it comes to the mindsets of exemplars. Modrons and slaad aren't actually funny at all; devils, demons and yugoloths are all horrific on levels we fail to fathom; archons, guardinals and eladrins are basically putting on a veneer of approachability for the benefit of mortals.

[JohnnyCancer]

The Tome of Magic's version of Dantalion may be the collective ancestral rulers of some cosmic empire that the Gods took down. Any indication of which gods were offended by this empire, and if it fit anywhere in the Spelljammer universe?

[afroakuma]

The Tome of Magic's version of Dantalion may be the collective ancestral rulers of some cosmic empire that the Gods took down. Any indication of which gods were offended by this empire, and if it fit anywhere in the Spelljammer universe?

No indication, unfortunately. It would certainly fit in Spelljammer, no reason it couldn't. It's possible that one could link the myth to the Talaire, I suppose...

[Larkas]

But really, I agree with you, I feel like people are too reductivist when it comes to the mindsets of exemplars. Modrons and slaad aren't actually funny at all; devils, demons and yugoloths are all horrific on levels we fail to fathom; archons, guardinals and eladrins are basically putting on a veneer of approachability for the benefit of mortals.

Intriguing... I can totally imagine modrons and slaad cranked up to 11 and hence completely alien. Same for the rilmani But I fail on all the others!

[afroakuma]

What I'd really like to do at some point is get an artist to draw the modrons, rilmani and slaad for me based on not having seen past interpretations.

[Brookshw]

What I'd really like to do at some point is get an artist to draw the modrons, rilmani and slaad for me based on not having seen past interpretations.

Now that could be interesting, especially in the case of modrons, the old art was kinda goofy.

[afroakuma]

Hard part is finding an artist :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Weird question (and this must slip into headcanon): does the Plane of Shadow have a parallel to the phlogiston? Or is it akin to the real world (I.e.: you can get from shadow Oerth to shadow Toril, but you'll have to go through large spaces of nothing in between)?

[afroakuma]

Weird question (and this must slip into headcanon): does the Plane of Shadow have a parallel to the phlogiston?

There's nothing really "parallel" to the phlogiston.

[Lord_Gareth]

Speaking of, what's the Plane of Shadow like in spaces "away" from the Material Plane, such as between two worlds?

[afroakuma]

Speaking of, what's the Plane of Shadow like in spaces "away" from the Material Plane, such as between two worlds?

Terrifying beyond measure. As one mentally-scarred survivor kept screaming when they recovered him: "There's nothing here! What are they shadows of?"

[Eldan]

Ooh. That's a sweet idea. But then, I like Shadow in general.

[Svata]

That is quite good.

[pwykersotz]

I know of the Great Wheel and the World Tree, what other canonical cosmology arrangements are out there?

[enderlord99]

I know of the Great Wheel and the World Tree, what other canonical cosmology arrangements are out there?

None, and the world tree isn't canonical, either.

[afroakuma]

None, and the world tree isn't canonical, either.

Not within the context of this thread, anyway. Other unusual cosmologies depicted include Eberron's and Mystara's, but again, within the context of this thread, they're part of the Great Wheel.

[galan]

what's the deal with mammon? i want to like him because of his name, but at least according to BOVD he is just.. boring. is there anything interesting he have ever done (well, fighting ashmadai with the rest of the rulers of hell, but i don't think he had a major role in that either)?

also, chain devils aren't baatezu. so what are they? they feel almost undead to me, but i guess it's only because they're creepy.

[afroakuma]

what's the deal with mammon? i want to like him because of his name, but at least according to BOVD he is just.. boring. is there anything interesting he have ever done (well, fighting ashmadai with the rest of the rulers of hell, but i don't think he had a major role in that either)?

Nope. He's never really had the opportunity to shine. His cults perpetrate economic ruin on whole nations on the Prime, but he himself is dull, dull, dull.


also, chain devils aren't baatezu. so what are they? they feel almost undead to me, but i guess it's only because they're creepy.

They're just normal devils, natives of Baator like hellhounds, bezekiras, imps etc.

[JohnnyCancer]

Not within the context of this thread, anyway. Other unusual cosmologies depicted include Eberron's and Mystara's, but again, within the context of this thread, they're part of the Great Wheel.

Not canonical in the sense that newer material says to ignore all that stuff, or not canonical in that it's something people in-setting claim, but are mistaken about?

[enderlord99]

Not canonical in the sense that newer material says to ignore all that stuff, or not canonical in that it's something people in-setting claim, but are mistaken about?

Oh, it's part of "official" canon, as of 3.0... it's just so stupid that this thread (especially Afro) doesn't consider 3.0 or later to be canon in the first place when discussing Toril. We also don't consider 4E or later to be canon when discussing anything.

EDIT: That said, I'm coming up with a way to (unofficially) pseudo-merge the 4E cosmology with the stuff that's considered canon here. I might have some questions designed to double-check compatibility.

[Psyren]

Oh, it's part of "official" canon, as of 3.0... it's just so stupid that this thread (especially Afro) doesn't consider 3.0 or later to be canon in the first place when discussing Toril. We also don't consider 4E or later to be canon when discussing anything.


Not to derail, but I'm confused - why aren't 3rd edition cosmologies considered canon in the 3rd edition subforum?

I can understand throwing out 4e and 5e but not the stuff that actually belongs here.

[enderlord99]

Not to derail, but I'm confused - why aren't 3rd edition cosmologies considered canon in the 3rd edition subforum?

Because Toril has lots of things (from 2E) that are critical to the Great Wheel cosmology, and 3.0 ****ed it all up by making some bull**** "world tree" for Toril to be part of.

[Eldan]

Not to derail, but I'm confused - why aren't 3rd edition cosmologies considered canon in the 3rd edition subforum?

Because this is a Planescape thread, first and foremost. And Spelljammer. They are 2nd edition settings. I think the general idea is that 3rd edition material is imported if it adds to the setting, but the big changes are ignored. Like Faerun's suddenly new cosmology.

[Psyren]

Because this is a Planescape thread, first and foremost. And Spelljammer. They are 2nd edition settings. I think the general idea is that 3rd edition material is imported if it adds to the setting, but the big changes are ignored. Like Faerun's suddenly new cosmology.

I can understand that aversion from the context of specific planar arrangements, sure. But I also think that, if a 3e source opines on something more general (such as the nature of the Plane of Shadow, or the inhabitants of Elysium), that it shouldn't be thrown out wholesale. Just my two copper.

[afroakuma]

I can understand that aversion from the context of specific planar arrangements, sure. But I also think that, if a 3e source opines on something more general (such as the nature of the Plane of Shadow, or the inhabitants of Elysium), that it shouldn't be thrown out wholesale. Just my two copper.

3E sources are not "thrown out wholesale." The notion of Toril having a different and separate cosmology is. 3E added a lot of good new planar material, especially adventure hooks.

[Eldan]

What actually annoys me most about the alternate cosmologies is how little creativity there seems to be in most of them. First, throw out the arrangement of the planes, then come up with planes that are more or less identical to the ones already known (maybe with different names), fail to develop any of them properly, then populate them with the same races of creatures and NPCs as before. That's just... stunningly lazy.

At least points to Eberron, there. The mechanics of orbiting planes, planar influence and manifest zones were quite interesting. I'm not well-read on Eberron, so I don't know how much they did with that.

[Psyren]

3E sources are not "thrown out wholesale." The notion of Toril having a different and separate cosmology is. 3E added a lot of good new planar material, especially adventure hooks.

Ah, I misread enderlord's statement and missed the "when discussing Toril" clause. Thanks for clearing that up!


What actually annoys me most about the alternate cosmologies is how little creativity there seems to be in most of them. First, throw out the arrangement of the planes, then come up with planes that are more or less identical to the ones already known (maybe with different names), fail to develop any of them properly, then populate them with the same races of creatures and NPCs as before. That's just... stunningly lazy.

At least points to Eberron, there. The mechanics of orbiting planes, planar influence and manifest zones were quite interesting. I'm not well-read on Eberron, so I don't know how much they did with that.

I like the mechanics of it too, but the planes themselves... eh. Dolurrh in particular is just a giant sack of depressing.

[Eldan]

I like afterlives that are giant sacks of depressing. Gives people a reason to avoid death and to want to be resurrected at all cost.

Note that even Planescape's afterlive is rather grim if you think about it long enough. It wipes your memories, then turns you into a small cog into a giant machine of alingment propagation.

[Thurbane]

What I'd really like to do at some point is get an artist to draw the modrons, rilmani and slaad for me based on not having seen past interpretations.

My g/f is quite a talented sketch artist, I might see if she can do it in her spare time.

[Psyren]

I like afterlives that are giant sacks of depressing. Gives people a reason to avoid death and to want to be resurrected at all cost.

But good people should not have such a reason. They should be willing to move on and clear the stage for the next generation of heroes, not want to stick around/seek immortality every bit as much as the evil folks do.

It also means that, your reward for putting others first and sacrificing throughout your life is... well, nothing. Might as well Rakdos it up.

[Eldan]

Exactly. So we have a reason for evil to exist, too. Fantastic!

[The Insanity]

What is the reason for most devils/demons having unlimited teleportation (and the greater version at that)?

[Jon_Dahl]

Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

[Urpriest]

Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

[*.*.*.*]

What is the reason for most devils/demons having unlimited teleportation (and the greater version at that)?

Something to do with a fallen celestial that the 'loths own. IIRC they whisper the True Name of the celestial to a fiend when it's 'born' and it allows it to teleport at will.


Can an undead have its soul reincarnated into a living creature?

[Deadline]

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

[Urpriest]

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

That only helps with DR, it doesn't have an effect on incorporeality. It's why Allips can put the Tarrasque into a coma.

[Psyren]

Also, most of their natural weapons count as Magic, don't they?

Only for the purposes of overcoming DR - it won't give them a 50% chance of hitting incorporeals unless they use actual magic weapons.

But the Abyss also has heavy-hitters like Orcus and Pale Night who have no problems dealing with any number of undead.

[Jon_Dahl]

Afro may have a more detailed answer to this, but in general I'd imagine demons are about as likely to have magic weapons, PC class levels, and the like, as the average human, while being on average more resistant to this sort of thing. So I don't think they're any more vulnerable than Primes.

When you read about D&D demons, you don't get that picture. No magic weapons, hardly no PC levels and nothing useful against incorporeal undead... Nothing.
Primes seemed primed (no pun intended) for undead. Every little village has a cleric etc.

If you just look at canon, just look at all the things that have ever been written, it seems that the normal prime village will have one or two ways to handle such problems, but demons with their claws and odd magic weapons are not.

[Deadline]

That only helps with DR, it doesn't have an effect on incorporeality. It's why Allips can put the Tarrasque into a coma.

Right, forgot about that. I guess we've tended to just houserule them as magic weapons in all respects.

[afroakuma]

My g/f is quite a talented sketch artist, I might see if she can do it in her spare time.

Ooh, that would be excellent. Please keep me posted, I have certain standards re: non-contamination of the artistic brainspace. Once you see modron art, forever will it dominate your destiny... etc. :smalltongue:


What is the reason for most devils/demons having unlimited teleportation (and the greater version at that)?

Fluff reason or crunch reason?


Perhaps this is not the right thread for it, but I'd like to understand something.

Aren't the devils and demons highly susceptible to incorporeal undead?

Some are, many aren't.


You have a 15th-level cleric (I know, they are rare) and you create some shadows and then control them. Very easy. You cast Plane Shift and tell the shadows to enslave some random layer of the Abyss. You Plane Shift back to Prime Material and wait for a week. Maybe two.

What are the demons going to do?

Laugh at you. They might just do the lazy thing and trot out someone with dark cleric powers to rebuke/control them - just because rank and file demons don't have those powers doesn't mean elites don't. In the Abyss, many layers have demon lords who protect their servants from negative energy because Orcus is a foe of theirs. Mainly, though, they're going to ignore you; undead can't create spawn from slain demons. A demon strong enough to act independently will avoid incorporeal undead until it has a means to murder them all (wand of fireball and a couple of decent shots will do it) while those too weak to escape are just going to reform shortly anyway. In the end, all your shadows can do is make bags of corrupt flesh be over there instead of over here.


And what if the shadows were spectres instead?

They'll bother a few demons slightly higher up the food chain, but the same terms apply. Spectres can't create spawn from demons. Armanites and arrow demons can bomb them with magic arrows from a distance, lilitu have the ability to cast mock divine spells that can harm undead, palrethees and babau both have defensive measures that will injure even incorporeal undead (50% of the time) for touching them, solamiths can just fling soulfire, etc.

Remember that the Abyss is home to many other things. Whisper demons aren't tanar'ri, but they are incorporeal and can rip shadows to nothingness with ease. Abyssal undead, loumaras (all of which are incorporeal) and fiends/fiendish allies with spellcaster levels will all make short work of incorporeal undead.

[The Insanity]

Fluff reason or crunch reason?
Both, if there's a difference.

[Jon_Dahl]

Laugh at you. They might just do the lazy thing and trot out someone with dark cleric powers to rebuke/control them - just because rank and file demons don't have those powers doesn't mean elites don't. In the Abyss, many layers have demon lords who protect their servants from negative energy because Orcus is a foe of theirs. Mainly, though, they're going to ignore you; undead can't create spawn from slain demons. A demon strong enough to act independently will avoid incorporeal undead until it has a means to murder them all (wand of fireball and a couple of decent shots will do it) while those too weak to escape are just going to reform shortly anyway. In the end, all your shadows can do is make bags of corrupt flesh be over there instead of over here.



They'll bother a few demons slightly higher up the food chain, but the same terms apply. Spectres can't create spawn from demons. Armanites and arrow demons can bomb them with magic arrows from a distance, lilitu have the ability to cast mock divine spells that can harm undead, palrethees and babau both have defensive measures that will injure even incorporeal undead (50% of the time) for touching them, solamiths can just fling soulfire, etc.

Remember that the Abyss is home to many other things. Whisper demons aren't tanar'ri, but they are incorporeal and can rip shadows to nothingness with ease. Abyssal undead, loumaras (all of which are incorporeal) and fiends/fiendish allies with spellcaster levels will all make short work of incorporeal undead.

Thank you, that was an excellent response! I have nothing further.

[afroakuma]

Can an undead have its soul reincarnated into a living creature?

If it's an undead with an actual soul, and is destroyed, then I don't see why not. If you mean the soul of the creature it was, then it depends on where the soul is currently.


Both, if there's a difference.

Well, the fluff reason is that the yugoloths gave the true names of the fiends to a creature tapped into the Astral Plane, which allowed them to subconsciously call on its powers to shift them from place to place instantaneously. The crunch reason is Villain Teleportation. :smallcool:


Thank you, that was an excellent response! I have nothing further.

Glad to oblige.

[*.*.*.*]

If you mean the soul of the creature it was, then it depends on where the soul is currently.

Say it is a Lich who believes the best protection for his soul is another living creature, could he reincarnate his soul as a living creature and still walk around as a Lich?

[afroakuma]

Say it is a Lich who believes the best protection for his soul is another living creature, could he reincarnate his soul as a living creature and still walk around as a Lich?

No. Still no.

[CRtwenty]

Is Gith dead? Or is she just imprisoned/hiding somewhere?

[afroakuma]

Is Gith dead? Or is she just imprisoned/hiding somewhere?

Her soul is imprisoned within Dis under the control of Dispater.

[Brookshw]

So, Titans, silly tall buggers, got some people in prison iirc in Carceri, others hanging out in the upper planes, one in Sigil. Doesn't seem like there's a consistent shake for them though I suppose that makes sense. So are the Carceri guys actually in prison or just hanging out? How do they fit into the grand scheme as it were, if they do at all. Canonfire and Planewalker seem a bit sparse on the topic.

[afroakuma]

So, Titans, silly tall buggers, got some people in prison iirc in Carceri, others hanging out in the upper planes, one in Sigil. Doesn't seem like there's a consistent shake for them though I suppose that makes sense. So are the Carceri guys actually in prison or just hanging out? How do they fit into the grand scheme as it were, if they do at all. Canonfire and Planewalker seem a bit sparse on the topic.

Are we talking about big-T Titans or little-t titans? The latter are described in the Monster Manual, while the former are the gods who predated the Olympians. If it's the first crew, they're (almost) all bound to Carceri but not actually "imprisoned;" each has a realm and typically enjoys a lot of creature comforts within, though said realms are of course scattered across six infinite hellscapes. They have their own plots and schemes to pursue, many of which involve escape from the Red Prison and/or revenge on the MacCronus clan.

[Jowgen]

Hi, the raw Q&A thread sent me here after admitting that they do not possess the wisdom I seek, and that it is he known as Afrokuma that I must seek.

My questions are rather basic AFAIK, and most revolve around the Plane of Shadow, as in the 3rd edition transitive plane, in the standard Great Wheel cosmology

I know that just about every plane is connected to the big cloud that is the Astral Plane, and that each plane either has its own etheral plane or no etheral plane at all (couldn't tell you which is which though), but when it comes to the Plane of Shadow, I'm at a loss. Sure, it allegedly connects alternative material planes (if one bothers with those), but just how does it fit into the 'planar map'?

Also, plane of shadow residents. Just how populated is it, and is there any way to make guesses at its demographic?

Lastly, Erebus, the alleged Lesser Deity of this plane. Is he generally considered canon? What are people's opinion on him?

[afroakuma]

My questions are rather basic AFAIK, and most revolve around the Plane of Shadow, as in the 3rd edition transitive plane, in the standard Great Wheel cosmology

I have a passing familiarity with it, yes. :smallwink:


I know that just about every plane is connected to the big cloud that is the Astral Plane, and that each plane either has its own etheral plane or no etheral plane at all (couldn't tell you which is which though), but when it comes to the Plane of Shadow, I'm at a loss. Sure, it allegedly connects alternative material planes (if one bothers with those), but just how does it fit into the 'planar map'?

Helpful illustrations (http://38.media.tumblr.com/f907b769a6886ef0a05dd3c32722bb22/tumblr_n9xytkVkS11tfd9iio1_500.jpg). The Plane of Shadow is similar to the Ethereal Plane, in that it is coexistent to the Material Plane.


Also, plane of shadow residents. Just how populated is it, and is there any way to make guesses at its demographic?

It's not densely populated at all. Until it is. Those parts are scary.

A multitude of creatures call the Plane of Shadow home. Creatures with the dark and shadow templates can be found in all varieties, as well as shadar-kai, darkweavers, gloomwings, khayal genies, greeloxes, shades, shadelings, shadows, shadowswyfts, shadow spiders, shadow mastiffs, shadow dragons, shadow etc. etc.


Lastly, Erebus, the alleged Lesser Deity of this plane. Is he generally considered canon? What are people's opinion on him?

Canonical? Yes. Important? Not really. I can't really address the last question without a more specific idea of which "people" we're referring to.

[Brookshw]

Are we talking about big-T Titans or little-t titans? The latter are described in the Monster Manual, while the former are the gods who predated the Olympians. If it's the first crew, they're (almost) all bound to Carceri but not actually "imprisoned;" each has a realm and typically enjoys a lot of creature comforts within, though said realms are of course scattered across six infinite hellscapes. They have their own plots and schemes to pursue, many of which involve escape from the Red Prison and/or revenge on the MacCronus clan.

So Cronus' cronnies are distinct from the other big-T? No love lost in Carceri I guess. Maybe I should just think about the whole shebang as a bunch of dragons, some are here, some are there, some have agendas, some are twits. But hey, I did notice Planes of Conflict attributed Hecatoncheires to Gaea as her kid born at the Titan's bequest so, ya know, that's fun.

Moving on, caps on the limit to type VI demons, angels etc. Or, maybe caps. Iirc the 2e MM had the number of (known) Balors in existance set at 27 (24?). Solars as I recall also had some cap from 1e but I'm beyond hazy at what that number was. Anywho, a Solar falls. Assuming the cap is true (and what's it based on anyway if gods make them as servants :smallconfused:) who decides on raising up the next Solar? The Hebdomad doesn't sound right since the whole "servant" thing.

Also a bit offtopic-ish (/readied action to dodge thrown books and death gazes), have you looked at any of the 5e MM stuff? Plenty of Angels, Demons, and other planar-y stuff I hear, curious what your take is on it if you have one.

[afroakuma]

So Cronus' cronnies are distinct from the other big-T? No love lost in Carceri I guess.

No idea what this is trying to say. :smalltongue: I was referring to Cronos and company.


Moving on, caps on the limit to type VI demons, angels etc. Or, maybe caps. Iirc the 2e MM had the number of (known) Balors in existance set at 27 (24?). Solars as I recall also had some cap from 1e but I'm beyond hazy at what that number was. Anywho, a Solar falls. Assuming the cap is true (and what's it based on anyway if gods make them as servants :smallconfused:) who decides on raising up the next Solar? The Hebdomad doesn't sound right since the whole "servant" thing.

The cap was also a product of an era that assumed you'd be using one standard pantheon and not all the Planes. So of that pantheon, its nonevil gods, in all probability.


Also a bit offtopic-ish (/readied action to dodge thrown books and death gazes), have you looked at any of the 5e MM stuff? Plenty of Angels, Demons, and other planar-y stuff I hear, curious what your take is on it if you have one.

There's only one recycled bit of devil art in there (hamatula) and otherwise they made things look really good. So far I'm not sold on the general trim-down on powers and features that 5E has gone ahead with - I understand why the decisions were made, but I don't agree with them. They got my hopes up a bit with modrons, but holy cow did they ever fail hard there - still constructs, and they only adapted the drones, and they recycled the art of all five. Still, it was a half-step in a sort-of-right direction. :smallsigh:

[Brookshw]

No idea what this is trying to say. :smalltongue: I was referring to Cronos and company. I swear you do this on purpose :smalltongue:




There's only one recycled bit of devil art in there (hamatula) and otherwise they made things look really good. So far I'm not sold on the general trim-down on powers and features that 5E has gone ahead with - I understand why the decisions were made, but I don't agree with them. They got my hopes up a bit with modrons, but holy cow did they ever fail hard there - still constructs, and they only adapted the drones, and they recycled the art of all five. Still, it was a half-step in a sort-of-right direction. :smallsigh:

Wait, they REALLY (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcIDBg1SLJnMMxZ98qgKErYjJA9uQCq Rzns3c27LTP3WuvEXmawg)recycled (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmWO93ZJGsNpjH4sWYhBSytPh5x2HYu FbXvImz1nPJLc01IlfX)the (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZ6SG0JSbjvu8KUntQsZrzaDGt0ybPq o0Xv1COTY3GpgGM2g3g0g)art (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3kPoDVV8Z-kLftgjxyy6hl7egvBf2qHhSW8SorYKcdDBHhsZv)of the original Modrons?

Okay, I got lazy and stopped linking. But you remember, I know you do :smallamused:

[...]

I asked this question in the last thread, but I don't think it was answered (not that I'm complaining, you have a lot of things to answer). If it was, just tell me, because I didn't see it.
Do you have any idea of the location, whether planar, spatial, or both, of the Aboleth Elder Evils?

EDIT: Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything?

[afroakuma]

I swear you do this on purpose :smalltongue:

Do what? The only uses of "Big T" I can think of are either the tarrasque or Tharizdun, and titans of any stripe have nothing to do with either of them.


Wait, they REALLY (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcIDBg1SLJnMMxZ98qgKErYjJA9uQCq Rzns3c27LTP3WuvEXmawg)recycled (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmWO93ZJGsNpjH4sWYhBSytPh5x2HYu FbXvImz1nPJLc01IlfX)the (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZ6SG0JSbjvu8KUntQsZrzaDGt0ybPq o0Xv1COTY3GpgGM2g3g0g)art (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3kPoDVV8Z-kLftgjxyy6hl7egvBf2qHhSW8SorYKcdDBHhsZv)of the original Modrons?

No, that would be interesting by comparison. They recycled the art from Dragon Magazine (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/085/d/6/March_of_the_Modrons_by_jdillon82.jpg).


I asked this question in the last thread, but I don't think it was answered (not that I'm complaining, you have a lot of things to answer). If it was, just tell me, because I didn't see it.
Do you have any idea of the location, whether planar, spatial, or both, of the Aboleth Elder Evils?

I could have sworn I answered a question like this. Bolothamogg is in the Far Realm, Piscaethces has a realm in Baator, Holashner actually physically exists in the depths of a Prime world somewhere (Oerth, if you're following the Savage Tide adventure path). Shothotugg is on the Prime Material Plane... somewhere. Somewhere far away, hopefully. It's out in wildspace or in the Flow, seeking new worlds to consume. Y'chak is the mystery; it understands and promotes the idea of evil, and communicates actively with cultists and fanatics, but its nature and lack of presence would suggest it is confined to the Far Realm. We don't know about Y'chak one way or the other, which is probably what it wanted. :smalltongue:


EDIT: Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything?

They still live there. :smalltongue: They're invasive expansionists, a good fit for a different flavor of lawful neutral.

[...]

Thanks for the help. I wish I had as many source materials as you...

Amazon.com has failed me.

[Jowgen]

The Plane of Shadow is similar to the Ethereal Plane, in that it is coexistent to the Material Plane.


Thanks for granting me thy wisdom, planewalker :smallwink:

Going from this, I vaguely recall reading at some point that there are planes that have their own Ethereal Planes, which was mentioned in some context about spells using the etheral plane not working on planes that don't. Is this correct, and if yes, would a plane with a coexistent Ethereal Plane also have it's own plane of Shadow? Also, assuming other planes can have their own "lesser" transitive planes, how would I go about finding out if they have one?

With Erebus, I guess by people I mean both denizens of the more prominent planes, and actual people playing the game. I've never heard of anyone having Erebus in their campaign, and I'm not sure he even gets mentioend outside that one Dragon Magazine issue; so I suppose I'm really just wondering whether he is at all something worthwhile/to be concerned about in the D&D multiverse.

[Brookshw]

Do what? The only uses of "Big T" I can think of are either the tarrasque or Tharizdun, and titans of any stripe have nothing to do with either of them.
Are we talking about big-T

On. Purpose. =P



No, that would be interesting by comparison. They recycled the art from Dragon Magazine (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/085/d/6/March_of_the_Modrons_by_jdillon82.jpg).

Huh, that's an odd step.

[afroakuma]

Going from this, I vaguely recall reading at some point that there are planes that have their own Ethereal Planes, which was mentioned in some context about spells using the etheral plane not working on planes that don't. Is this correct

Nope.


it's own plane of Shadow?

Nope.


With Erebus, I guess by people I mean both denizens of the more prominent planes, and actual people playing the game. I've never heard of anyone having Erebus in their campaign, and I'm not sure he even gets mentioend outside that one Dragon Magazine issue; so I suppose I'm really just wondering whether he is at all something worthwhile/to be concerned about in the D&D multiverse.

Ahh. Not really, no.

[Psyren]

I just don't get why people are so enamored of modrons. They look really creepy to me with those fleshy lips and eyes poking out of metal casings. Hardly what I would call axiomatic perfection; they look way more chaotic to me, especially the Dragon Mag art linked above.

That was one change PF did that I liked, making Inevitables the iconic Lawful Outsider and simply giving them construct-like abilities.

http://uo-planescape.wdfiles.com/local--files/arbiter/Inevitable_Arbiter_by_Florian_Stitz-D%26D_3ed_(2011-01)_Paizo_Publishing_Pathfinder_-_Pathfinder_Roleplaying_Game,_Bestiary_2.jpg.jpg

[afroakuma]

I just don't get why people are so enamored of modrons. They look really creepy to me with those fleshy lips and eyes poking out of metal casings.

They're outsiders; as Eldan mentioned not too recently, a sense of the alien should be present with them. In some ways, they embody conceptual, imagined structure given life - highly symmetrical, embodying familiar shapes with understood physical properties. Inevitables look like enforcers; modrons look like geometry come alive.

Of course, there's also the other factors to consider; nostalgia, canon, the fact that they're just so awesomely goofy and yet still surprisingly dangerous, and the fact that they make things a lot less "generic coolness" by being around, because even the coolest modron is still a weird weird creature.

[Tragak]

Also, what's up with the Formians? They aren't the core outsiders of Mechanus, so what do they have to do with anything? Headcanon if you're interested: Arcadia is Europe, Mechanus is Australia, Formians are rabbits :smallwink:

Formians might originally be from Arcadia, but Mechanus is ultimately better suited to them, so the Formians who moved to Mechanus have more influence over Mechanus than those who stayed in Arcadia have over Arcadia.

[Milo v3]

Headcanon if you're interested: Arcadia is Europe, Mechanus is Australia, Formians are rabbits :smallwink:

Formians might originally be from Arcadia, but Mechanus is ultimately better suited to them, so the Formians who moved to Mechanus have more influence over Mechanus than those who stayed in Arcadia have over Arcadia.

Mechanus... Australia.... :smalleek:

Canceri seems fitting actually now that I think about it.....

[Eldan]

Unless I remember incorrectly, the Formians were first moved to Mechanus by accident, when part of Arcadia fell. They didn't expand there on purpose. In fact, they probably couldn't.

Personaly, if I could choose, my preferred template for lawful outsider would be the Moignos. Wonderfully alien. And very lawful.

For anyone wondering, they are living, two-dimensional embodiments of mathematical equations. (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/moigno.php)

[Tragak]

Mechanus... Australia.... :smalleek:

Canceri seems fitting actually now that I think about it..... Yeah, there is that. I think that Australia=Mechanus works well enough as a metaphor when talking about Australia through the lens of the Formians, but Australia=Carceri makes a lot more sense for talking about Australia itself. :smallbiggrin:


Unless I remember incorrectly, the Formians were first moved to Mechanus by accident, when part of Arcadia fell. Ooooooh, that's brilliant.

[afroakuma]

Personaly, if i could choose, my preferred template for lawful outsider would be the moignos. Wonderfully alien. And very lawful.

ur2b2 4ur!'

[Psyren]

They're outsiders; as Eldan mentioned not too recently, a sense of the alien should be present with them. In some ways, they embody conceptual, imagined structure given life - highly symmetrical, embodying familiar shapes with understood physical properties. Inevitables look like enforcers; modrons look like geometry come alive.

Of course, there's also the other factors to consider; nostalgia, canon, the fact that they're just so awesomely goofy and yet still surprisingly dangerous, and the fact that they make things a lot less "generic coolness" by being around, because even the coolest modron is still a weird weird creature.

Eh, I get plenty "sense of the alien" looking at a Marut or Zelekhut. And rather than "generic cool," I think inevitables are just plain cool. Similarly, I love what PF did with the Formians art-wise in B4.

I like the idea of Modrons being living geometry, but they still look too fleshy for me. Especially since "geometry" implies straight lines, but the fleshy bits just look too squishy.

[afroakuma]

Eh, I get plenty "sense of the alien" looking at a Marut or Zelekhut.

I just don't see it, myself. They're just more big metal construct things.


I like the idea of Modrons being living geometry, but they still look too fleshy for me. Especially since "geometry" implies straight lines, but the fleshy bits just look too squishy.

I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) (http://th08.deviantart.net/fs13/150/f/2006/355/5/6/Modron_Zin_by_Zubby.jpg) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

[Eldan]

I was looking for a specific bit of modron art and found This thread (http://www.planewalker.com/content/yugoloths-created-asmodeus) on Planewalker, which is quite amusing and full of quite strange planar theories that are apparently in 5E.

And this nice piece of art from 5E, the Great Modron March:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/quickleaf/Mobile%20Uploads/image-5.jpg

Seems most of the Modrons as drawn by Squaff are no longer online, but here's one, the Nonaton:
http://fc09.deviantart.com/fs31/f/2008/232/d/6/Nonaton_by_Clone_Artist.jpg

[Psyren]

^ See, just look at that thing. Its visual design is all over the place, and the gauges/lights on the front are definitely not symmetrical. The inner workings are practically exposed. How can someone look at that mess and think "perfection or even "Law?"



I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) (http://th08.deviantart.net/fs13/150/f/2006/355/5/6/Modron_Zin_by_Zubby.jpg) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

That does look much closer to what I would consider a modron should be.

[Eldan]

Why would law have to be symmetrical? "Efficiency over aesthetics" also seems quite lawful to me.

[Psyren]

Why would law have to be symmetrical? "Efficiency over aesthetics" also seems quite lawful to me.

Because asymmetry is Chaos' thing,

[Milo v3]

^ See, just look at that thing. Its visual design is all over the place, and the gauges/lights on the front are definitely not symmetrical. How can someone look at that mess and think "Law?"

I assume they'd try to write nine in a manner that was symmetrical rather than IX, probably more like:

...
...
...

Writing IX or 9 on a being physically constructed from LAW just feels weird to me... Though... if they decided roman numerals are the correct way to order them, then their is no way they'd just change it for 9....

[Eldan]

I don't approve of those depictions. I think this one (warning: small) (http://th08.deviantart.net/fs13/150/f/2006/355/5/6/Modron_Zin_by_Zubby.jpg) did a much better job. As I said though, what I really want to do is get an artist who has never seen past renderings to try their hand at modrons. And rilmani. And slaad.

That looks terribly boring and generic. A humanoid metal thing with glowing eyes? Really? Fantasy is full of those and I want my outsiders to be strange-looking. There's too many humanoids in the planes already (looking at you, all of Good).

Honestly, if I redesigned the planes, we'd have eye-covered wheels for angels and properly living mathematics and geometry for law. And similarly otherworldly designs for everyone else.

[Psyren]

That looks terribly boring and generic. A humanoid metal thing with glowing eyes? Really? Fantasy is full of those and I want my outsiders to be strange-looking. There's too many humanoids in the planes already (looking at you, all of Good).

Honestly, if I redesigned the planes, we'd have eye-covered wheels for angels and properly living mathematics and geometry for law. And similarly otherworldly designs for everyone else.

Law is supposed to be boring. Have you ever been to a city council meeting? Ever read a technical manual or detailed court ruling? Do you remember the Central Bureaucracy from Futurama?

:roy:: "I'll take dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty any day of the week."

[afroakuma]

That looks terribly boring and generic.

Yes it does, but I meant a better interpretation of the original designs than just smacking some clockwork on them and calling it a day. I still think they need a redesign generally.


Law is supposed to be boring.

That's an overly narrow and Prime view of "law." Law as a primal force is far more vast and alien. So is Chaos, for that matter.

[Psyren]

It's a simplified view, sure, but it's not that far off the mark. Whether it's a Prime magistrate enforcing a trade agreement, or a Kolyarut investigating the validity of a devil's claim on a mage's soul, they're both still dealing with byzantine contract law; one is certainly more fantastic than the other and the stakes are much higher, but just as dry when you get right down to it.

[afroakuma]

It's a simplified view, sure, but it's not that far off the mark.

I disagree.

Anyway, door's open for more questions.

[Eldan]

Law is supposed to be boring. Have you ever been to a city council meeting? Ever read a technical manual or detailed court ruling? Do you remember the Central Bureaucracy from Futurama?

:roy:: "I'll take dull efficiency over exciting uncertainty any day of the week."

Yes, yes and yes, and in fact I often find them exciting. Scientist, you know. I spend my days reading technical reports.

[Psyren]

I disagree.

Anyway, door's open for more questions.

Okay.

As a matter of fact I did have a couple - about my favorite outsiders of all, genies.

1) A strategy I often see come up in optimization discussions is that efreet, marids and other wish-granting entities can work out bargains with non-genie entities ahead of time to mess with wizards who try to bind them. This allows them to either use up their wishes ahead of time (to avoid having to grant any to uppity mortals), or work out elaborate revenge in case the mortal wishes for something that the genie would prefer not to grant. Is this a thing that happens in the fluff at all, or are efreet generally nonchalant about who gets their wishes and when?

2) Janni, based on my reading, are widely considered the red-headed stepchild of geniekind. Why is that, and do they have any special advantages at all? Or do they purely exist to be the buttmonkey to "real" genies?

3) Are there any other cool kinds of genies besides the big 4 elemental types?

4) What's the deal with the City of Brass? The Sultan's powers are vague hints at best, yet it's implied that he's not somebody you want to mess with - perhaps on par with notables like the Lords of Nine. How strong is this guy really, and is there any more information about hiim? Is the position more fluid with all their intrigue, or has it been the same guy all this time.

[Eldan]

I can only think of the Khayal, the shadow Djinn.

Also, Al-Kadim had something like 50 million varieties of Djinn for different tasks. So if you ever need an income tax accountant djinn, look there.

[afroakuma]

1) A strategy I often see come up in optimization discussions is that efreet, marids and other wish-granting entities can work out bargains with non-genie entities ahead of time to mess with wizards who try to bind them. This allows them to either use up their wishes ahead of time (to avoid having to grant any to uppity mortals), or work out elaborate revenge in case the mortal wishes for something that the genie would prefer not to grant. Is this a thing that happens in the fluff at all, or are efreet generally nonchalant about who gets their wishes and when?

It went unaddressed for a long time (because genies get so little love) but Al-Qadim had a sourcebook, Secrets of the Lamp, that established that wish-granting genies are pretty smart about how those wishes get used. If you come after one with Lojban or a book of legalese or a thoroughly-annotated contract, they're well within their rights to ask that you simplify or clarify, since they're the ones actually casting the wish. They'll also feign ignorance or weakness in an attempt to convince gullible summoners to pare it down, and they'll plan ahead with allies (excluding devils) to spend wishes in crafty ways that profit themselves. The Sultan of the Efreet has certain standards about what efreet should and should not be granting, for instance (no wishes for devils), since he's got a legitimate worry that his people will be enslaved en masse if mortals are allowed to abuse them.

In general, descriptions of genies that go in-depth seriously limit methods of abuse and make it clear that they can push back on wishes if they want to. Noble djinn, for instance, are noted for slacking on wish fulfillment when they don't respect the person commanding them, and neglecting their duties entirely if the binder doesn't heed their counsel.

I thiiiiink it mentioned somewhere that some genies actually trick a mortal early in life into burning out their wish power altogether, i.e.


Genie, I wish to be the most powerful sorcerer... IN THE WOOOOOOOORLD!


That's nice. Now what can I do for you?


2) Janni, based on my reading, are widely considered the red-headed stepchild of geniekind. Why is that, and do they have any special advantages at all? Or do they purely exist to be the buttmonkey to "real" genies?

Janni are based on the entities of the same name from mythology, who were classed as the weakest of their kind and partitioned into the group "those who travel about ceaselessly." In D&D fluff, the reason is because they are composed of all the elements and so belong to none. As for special advantages, they do have the inbound capacity to survive on the Elemental Planes, which I think could have been codified much better if Core contained any of the spells from the MotP but still suggests they're not affected by the traits of those planes.

Ignoring that, buttmonkeys.


3) Are there any other cool kinds of genies besides the big 4 elemental types?

Eldan mentioned the khayal, the genies of Shadow. There's also one kind of genie that's particularly cool - the qorrash, or ice genie. They you've got the tasked genies from Al-Qadim, which are transformed variants of the main four that have become specialized to the various duties to which they are bound. There are quite a number of them.


4) What's the deal with the City of Brass? The Sultan's powers are vague hints at best, yet it's implied that he's not somebody you want to mess with - perhaps on par with notables like the Lords of Nine. How strong is this guy really, and is there any more information about hiim? Is the position more fluid with all their intrigue, or has it been the same guy all this time.

The position is described as a fluid one, rife with treachery and betrayals. The Sultan is definitely a figure of some power, just as the Khan of the Dao, the Caliph of the Djinn and the Padisha of the Marid are. Let's see what I have on him...

So the Great Sultan of the Efreet (Lord of Flame, Incandescent Potentate, the Tempering and Eternal Flame of Truth, Fuel of the Unquenchable Legions, Most Puissant of Hunters, Marshall of the Order of the Fiery Heart, the Smoldering Dictator, the Crimson Firebrand) is an advanced noble efreeti whose powers include maximum hit points, control over all of the spells of the "province of fire magics" once per day apiece, the ability to bring forth flames of justice at will. He's surrounded by flames and a halo of poisonous, choking smoke. His clothing, which must withstand his fire, is often woven with adamantite and accords him a very high AC relative to its weight. He is capable of transforming into a massive firestorm and if he has to visit another plane will prefer to appear in this form first. His coterie tends to range from 25 to more than 100 efreet at any given time. When visiting one of the efreet Pashas, his retinue can exceed 600 members.

It's probable that he's decked out with fireproof magic items and some minor artifacts, but nothing is mentioned.

[Psyren]

This has been great, thank you!


It went unaddressed for a long time (because genies get so little love) but Al-Qadim had a sourcebook, Secrets of the Lamp, that established that wish-granting genies are pretty smart about how those wishes get used. If you come after one with Lojban or a book of legalese or a thoroughly-annotated contract, they're well within their rights to ask that you simplify or clarify, since they're the ones actually casting the wish. They'll also feign ignorance or weakness in an attempt to convince gullible summoners to pare it down, and they'll plan ahead with allies (including devils) to spend wishes in crafty ways that profit themselves.

Whoa, they can do that? "No hablo ingles" and just make you paraphrase until you get to something broad enough for them to screw? Are there any safe wishes at all then? (RAW aside.)


I thiiiiink it mentioned somewhere that some genies actually trick a mortal early in life into burning out their wish power altogether.

Wait, "burning out?" Isn't it on a per-year cooldown, but otherwise not limited?


Ignoring that, buttmonkeys.

Bummer.


Eldan mentioned the khayal, the genies of Shadow. There's also one kind of genie that's particularly cool - the qorrash, or ice genie. They you've got the tasked genies from Al-Qadim, which are transformed variants of the main four that have become specialized to the various duties to which they are bound. There are quite a number of them.

Can all of these grant wishes? Any besides the Janni that can't?

If I were a mortal looking to bind a genie with the least mean streak to avoid wish-screw, which one would you recommend? Or should I just not bother and try to get Wish myself?



The position is described as a fluid one, rife with treachery and betrayals. The Sultan is definitely a figure of some power, just as the Khan of the Dao, the Caliph of the Djinn and the Padisha of the Marid are. Let's see what I have on him...

So the Great Sultan of the Efreet (Lord of Flame, Incandescent Potentate, the Tempering and Eternal Flame of Truth, Fuel of the Unquenchable Legions, Most Puissant of Hunters, Marshall of the Order of the Fiery Heart, the Smoldering Dictator, the Crimson Firebrand) is an advanced noble efreeti whose powers include maximum hit points, control over all of the spells of the "province of fire magics" once per day apiece, the ability to bring forth flames of justice at will. He's surrounded by flames and a halo of poisonous, choking smoke. His clothing, which must withstand his fire, is often woven with adamantite and accords him a very high AC relative to its weight. He is capable of transforming into a massive firestorm and if he has to visit another plane will prefer to appear in this form first. His coterie tends to range from 25 to more than 100 efreet at any given time. When visiting one of the efreet Pashas, his retinue can exceed 600 members.

It's probable that he's decked out with fireproof magic items and some minor artifacts, but nothing is mentioned.

Cool. What are "flames of justice?" Any idea what kinds of goodies might be in his treasure vault, like specific artifacts? Does he have a name in any source? I'm guessing that in PF he might be synonymous with Ahriman but I'm not sure if that's the case in D&D.

Other genie questions:

1) Do you have similar info on the other three genie leaders? Do Jann have a leader?

2) Marids are described as the strongest, even moreso than Efreet. Is this coming from mythology or is there a D&D reason behind it? And given that the efreets are such jerks to... well, anything that isn't an efreet, why don't the other three gang up on them?

3) Is the correct power hierarchy as follows: Marids > Efreet > Djinn > Dao > Jann?

4) Any more info on Sha'irs besides what is in Dragon Compendium?

5) What relationship, if any, do the efreet have with the major players in the lower planes like Asmodeus and Orcus? And do the other genie types have any other famous extraplanar contacts they maintain?

6) Can any genies grant miracles?

[afroakuma]

This has been great, thank you!

I aim to please, as always.


Whoa, they can do that? "No hablo ingles" and just make you paraphrase until you get to something broad enough for them to screw? Are there any safe wishes at all then? (RAW aside.)

If it's straightforward and they can understand you, magical compulsion can force them to obey. It's when you start making it complicated that they're allowed to stall you or ask you to make your request more clear. Remember that a genie using wish isn't just "open box, insert text;" you tell the genie what you want, the genie actually punches in your desires, as it were. If the genie can't understand you or has a specific (and incorrect) understanding of what you describe, no amount of legalese will cover you. The safest wishes are the most straightforward ones with maybe one or two provisos for keeping yourself alive - a genie cannot simply add "but you're dead" to the end of wish fulfillment, and most of them really do just want to get it over with. "You want a vorpal sword? Fine, whatever. Here it is, I could have stuck it through your neck but I didn't want you resurrecting and coming to pester me again. Are we done?" That sort of thing.


Wait, "burning out?" Isn't it on a per-year cooldown, but otherwise not limited?

"I wish that you could no longer grant wishes!"

Sort of a crafty twist on the Aladdin formula.


Can all of these grant wishes? Any besides the Janni that can't?

I don't know that any of the tasked genies can grant wishes... mayyyybe there's one or two, but most of them are far more specialized in their powers. Neither khayals nor qorrash can grant wishes.


If I were a mortal looking to bind a genie with the least mean streak to avoid wish-screw, which one would you recommend? Or should I just not bother and try to get Wish myself?

If your wish is fairly safe and you can set conditions to avoid the obvious screw, you should be fine with any genie. A noble djinni is still the safest bet though.


Cool. What are "flames of justice?"

Looks like a spell from Al-Qadim. I'll have to follow up on this one.


Any idea what kinds of goodies might be in his treasure vault, like specific artifacts?

No, but again I can follow up.


Does he have a name in any source?

He does, actually! Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazen.


1) Do you have similar info on the other three genie leaders? Do Jann have a leader?

Alrighty, here we go:

The Great Khan of the Dao, titles titles titles, Balancer of All Earthly Accounts, is an advanced noble dao who commands "all the spells of the province of sand magic" to use once per day per spell. Listening to him speak for a round has the effect of a suggestion. Maximum hit points, maze 1/month, and of course the unique and dangerous immunity he holds to any weapon of metal or stone, even if enchanted. When he arrives on the Prime, his mere approach is marked with a tremendous and devastating earthquake. As he moves, tremors dance in the ground below, and when he crosses the desert a sandstorm arises.

He's also a complete Richard.

The Great Caliph of the Djinn, titles titles titles, Commander of the Four Winds, is an advanced noble djinn with maximum hit points, who commands "all the spells of the province of wind magic" once per day. He is eternally surrounded by a wind that manifests as a gentle breeze unless a ranged weapon is directed against him - he is impossible to strike with any missile weapon. Even magic missiles will be dispersed by his protective wind. A huge blast of wind announces his arrival on the Prime, although his travel is usually subdued by comparison.

The Great Padisha of the Marids, titles titles titles, Maharaja of the Oceans, is a very advanced noble marid with maximum hit points, who has control of "all spells of the province of the sea" once per day. It is difficult to deceive her, for she has a permanent detect lie power at all times. She has demonstrated the ability to alter her form casually, changing her looks, skin color and hair. The Padisha is immune to any spell involving water, ice, steam or electricity.

There is no one racial leader of the jann, largely because there's no jann homeland and the race is scattered. Individual tribes are ruled by sheiks, and large congregations by amirs. There may one day be a Great Nawab of the Jann (Negus? Malik? Pharaoh?) but currently none exists.


2) Marids are described as the strongest, even moreso than Efreet. Is this coming from mythology

Yes indeed. The only one that doesn't strictly figure in mythology is the dao, which... I don't know where they got that. Working on it, still don't know though.


And given that the efreets are such jerks to... well, anything that isn't an efreet, why don't the other three gang up on them?

Because djinn hate dao, dao hate djinn and marids don't care about any of them.


3) Is the correct power hierarchy as follows: Marids > Efreet > Djinn > Dao > Jann?

Dao > Djinn, otherwise correct.


4) Any more info on Sha'irs besides what is in Dragon Compendium?

Probably a bit, but I'll need to find that book. Don't have them with me right now, I'm running off of memory.


5) What relationship, if any, do the efreet have with the major players in the lower planes like Asmodeus and Orcus? And do the other genie types have any other famous extraplanar contacts they maintain?

The efreet maintain trade relationships and loose alliances with a number of major devils. The rest largely eschew dealings with the movers and shakers of the Outer Planes.


6) Can any genies grant miracles?

No.

[afroakuma]

Some follow-ups:

• Jann have at least one advantage over other genies: they cannot be bound in genie traps.

• Flame of justice is a really entertaining spell, it turns out. The caster compels the subject to speak only in truths, and to hide no information and refrain from silence when a question is asked. For each untruth that is spoken, the subject burns with supernatural flame. Ordinarily you get ten questions over ten minutes, but the Sultan has it as an at-will spell-like ability and, well, he gets to ask as much as he likes. :smallamused: Given the properties of efreet in 2E compared to 3E, it's likely that the Sultan's flames of justice penetrate fire resistance and immunity.

• In terms of artifacts the Great Sultan might possess, it's fairly likely that he has in his possession one of the fifteen Artifurnaces, though not in use at this time. It's also very likely that he has, or had at one point, in his collection the Book With No End. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and the Obsidian Man might also be in his vaults, or have at least passed through them.

• Genie wishes are actually quite well-defined in Secrets of the Lamp to have quite a few limitations. Sometimes genies themselves don't know how a wish will play out. In terms of the classic screw-you of conjuring the requested magical item out of the possession of a current owner, that's actually codified: genies cannot make permanent items wholecloth and have to whisk them out of somewhere else.

[Psyren]

Good stuff as usual, thanks again.



• Flame of justice is a really entertaining spell, it turns out. The caster compels the subject to speak only in truths, and to hide no information and refrain from silence when a question is asked. For each untruth that is spoken, the subject burns with supernatural flame. Ordinarily you get ten questions over ten minutes, but the Sultan has it as an at-will spell-like ability and, well, he gets to ask as much as he likes. :smallamused: Given the properties of efreet in 2E compared to 3E, it's likely that the Sultan's flames of justice penetrate fire resistance and immunity.

It sounds like he would use this on you to force you to make a wish. Kinda like the Heart's Desire ability from PF. So Efreet, at least powerful ones, have a way of accessing their wish power without making bargains with other entities...?



• In terms of artifacts the Great Sultan might possess, it's fairly likely that he has in his possession one of the fifteen Artifurnaces, though not in use at this time. It's also very likely that he has, or had at one point, in his collection the Book With No End. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd and the Obsidian Man might also be in his vaults, or have at least passed through them.

Now you've got my curiosity piqued, what do these do?



• Genie wishes are actually quite well-defined in Secrets of the Lamp to have quite a few limitations. Sometimes genies themselves don't know how a wish will play out. In terms of the classic screw-you of conjuring the requested magical item out of the possession of a current owner, that's actually codified: genies cannot make permanent items wholecloth and have to whisk them out of somewhere else.

Is it just another location in space, within the same reality, or can they go further afield? How about pulling an item across time? Or did it not go that far in depth?

[afroakuma]

It sounds like he would use this on you to force you to make a wish. Kinda like the Heart's Desire ability from PF. So Efreet, at least powerful ones, have a way of accessing their wish power without making bargains with other entities...?

It's certainly possible. Unlike the lower-level version of the spell, flame of justice interprets "truth" through the caster's mind. However, if he doesn't actually believe you wish to bring him gold and jewels, he can't actually compel you to say that.


Now you've got my curiosity piqued, what do these do?

The Artifurnaces are powerful spelljamming engines that channel motive power from another artifact trapped within them. The Book With No End is a powerful magical tome that drives its users toward world domination. The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd is a powerful suit of mail that endows its wearer with the means and desire to become a hero. The Obsidian Man is a deadly colossus, a statue that can come to life and rampage across worlds.


Is it just another location in space, within the same reality, or can they go further afield? How about pulling an item across time? Or did it not go that far in depth?

Didn't go in-depth on most of that, but it did specify that genies cannot alter the distant past or the future.

[afroakuma]

Anything more I can do for anyone? Or am I closing this one early? :smalltongue:

[Svata]

I've got one more about genies, Efreet specifically. If they were to secure a foothold on a plane they wer planning to invade (for whatever reason), how would they go about it from there?

[Milo v3]

Is there any known Efreeti/Salamander hybrid?

[afroakuma]

I've got one more about genies, Efreet specifically. If they were to secure a foothold on a plane they wer planning to invade (for whatever reason), how would they go about it from there?

Efreet are orderly. They would enslave those they had subjugated, then make their presence known to potential allies and weaker nearby targets, offering alliance or demanding tribute, respectively. They would invest efforts in ensuring that their foothold is credible enough as a threat to pay heed to.


Is there any known Efreeti/Salamander hybrid?

Nope.

[Svata]

Okay, good. That's pretty much how I had planned it and had it running.

[Larkas]

I have a hard time picturing the Inner Planes. How is life supposed to be in them? Are the genies the local "humanoid" races? What passes for flora and fauna? How do elementals fit into it all? Are they supposed to be "living" planes, like the Prime or Outer Planes, or something more static, with just a few pockets of life here and there?

If you want to focus on just one plane for explanation purposes, let's take the Elemental Plane of Air, as that seems to be the easiest to picture anyways.

[Brookshw]

We'd probably appreciate your input on this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374804-How-does-a-Faer%FBnian-wizard-cast-spells-outside-the-weave) if you have a moment.

Kinda crazy the artifacts that made their way over to Al Qadim, especially the Obsidian Man. How on earth would it have naturally stumbled into the shadow plane (oh yeah, wish hyjinx, maybe.....)

[Asrrin]

Aside from gold and souls, what commodity is most used as a currency in the Planes? Especially for good aligned planes who wouldn't accept soul currency, what do they use?

[123456789blaaa]

I love this series of threads. They're just lower on my priority list due to being much less time-sensitive than other things (or at least it was until you started implying you may have to close it :smallfurious::smalltongue:).


Hm. This is more a general sentiment and I don't really know how to put it into questions, but...

There was a thread about law and chaos in D&D that made me think about "weirdness". I sort of feel that all exemplars should be, to a degree, alien, but how even Planescape often does a bad job of showing them that way. Some come close, but in the end, all their motives feel remarkably human, sometimes, just bigger, grander. Which also makes sense, of course, given that they are born from human beliefs, but is also a bit disappointing sometimes.

So, I think a good starting question is: can you think of anything, preferably an exemplar, that is both good and utterly strange and alien in mindset?

Well on one hand I agree that more weirdness and alien-ness would be great. I also think the Unique exemplars can be written pretty boring when motives beyond broad goals are mentioned.

On the other hand though, it does kind of make sense that the more alien and weird exemplars are much smaller in number than the more human ones. This is the age of Prime-relevance after all. The Law/Chaos war is when things were more primordial and the focus was on the Outer/Inner Planes. It's only nowadays that humanoid souls are migrating en-mass to the Outer Planes and thus shaping them much more.

Responding to a previous post. Quotes included for context:



The Blood Queen doesn't really seem to lend herself well to being used in-game. She doesn't really do anything. Do you have any ideas for incorporating her into the plot of a game?In what capacity? I could see using her in a game.

Well, any capacity really. I understand that's not helpful though. Preferably it would be something that other beings would be hard-pressed to duplicate. You can plunder any old Evil deities profane temple for loot for example. Basically, if I rip out the Blood Queen from the fluff and replace her with something else (some other uncaring deity maybe), what plot opportunities do I lose? She's taking up fluff space and needs to pay the rent.



You've said previously that the Plane of Shadow-similar to the Para-elemental Planes- is a mixture of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. Now, before it was previously a demi-plane before becoming a full plane. Does this mean the Para/Quasi/etc Elemental Planes used to be demi-planes?
No.

Tis always a sad day when headcanon is wrong. Ah well.

Is there anything about the cosmology that makes this not make sense as an explanation? Like, if I were to use this in a story or game, would some people look at for example, some Ethereal Plane fluff and go "wait how does this origin for those Inner Planes work with this fluff over here?"

How did the Para/Quasi elemental planes actually form? Did they evolve naturally out of the interactions between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes and the Four main Elemental Planes over time?


Mercurial. Not an exemplar, but definitely an outsider and definitely alien. If we're just going for "good-aligned but alien," silthilar.

But really, I agree with you, I feel like people are too reductivist when it comes to the mindsets of exemplars. Modrons and slaad aren't actually funny at all; devils, demons and yugoloths are all horrific on levels we fail to fathom; archons, guardinals and eladrins are basically putting on a veneer of approachability for the benefit of mortals.

I feel conflicted because I really love the goofiness and weirdness of Modrons. The 2E art was fantastic and cute. Weirdness and whimsy is ingrained in DnD and I enjoy seeing it.

On the other hand, it seems unfair to relegate the iconic LN Exemplar race to that one niche when there's much more variety in the other alignment exemplars.


Now that could be interesting, especially in the case of modrons, the old art was kinda goofy.

I think some of the 1e modron art was quite eerie actually (this one for example (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c1/Modron-Dungeons%2BDragons.png)). Simple of course and they'd need more detail in a redesign but the skeletons seem sound for some.

[afroakuma]

I have a hard time picturing the Inner Planes.

Fire. It's Fire you have trouble with. Everyone has trouble with Fire.


How is life supposed to be in them?

Oh you're in for it now. I love this spiel.


Are the genies the local "humanoid" races?\

Snrk. Humanoid.


What passes for flora and fauna? How do elementals fit into it all? Are they supposed to be "living" planes, like the Prime or Outer Planes, or something more static, with just a few pockets of life here and there?

Righto, we're going to get into all of this. :smallamused:


If you want to focus on just one plane for explanation purposes, let's take the Elemental Plane of Air, as that seems to be the easiest to picture anyways.

You're not the boss of me. I'll focus on all the planes I want to. :smallmad: :smalltongue:

So, first off, remember that all of the Inner Planes are a little cross-contaminated; pockets of the others appear within each, particularly neighbors. Between that, portals and fades, there will always be something resembling "terrain" somewhere in the plane. Elementals on their native plane are not "human-shaped chunk of rock XYZ" or "vaguely angry gout of flame ABC;" they are pure spirits who can take on form by joining with the elemental matter of their plane to animate it.

Air

Let's do the easy one first, because alphabets. A huge menagerie of beings inhabit Air, from birds similar to those on the Prime to air lions, sislan, sylphs and mephits. Hordes of Prime avians have been brought in from time to time as mounts - pegasi, griffins, rocs, even insects - and their descendants have been touched by Air. It's an incredible plane. Elementals are the approximate "equivalent" of humans on this plane, with djinn being another major race. The gaunt, humanoid ruvoka have tribes here as well.

The ecology of the plane is bizarre, for while many of the creatures are elemental spirits and do not need to feed, and many more are immigrant or carry the traits of their Prime forebearers, there exist creatures like the reptilian saasin, which requires only motion to live. Windblown are large fungal colonies which end up in the shape of leaves or sheets of paper. Adapted to sustain themselves on trace amounts of moisture, a windblown that smacks against a humanoid or hits a gust coming off of a water pocket will acquire enough to survive for quite a time. Gigantic windblown exist that form a suitable food source for numerous creatures, some of whom live in it as though nesting on a kite. Other bizarre indigenous flora and fauna exist as well.

Earth

The plane of Earth, unlike Water, Air and (by definition) Fire, has no all-permeating source of light. It is pitch-black throughout much of the plane, which suits the tunneling creatures just fine. One of the more diversely-populated planes, Earth is home to not just elementals, dao and the ruvoka tribes, but also stone giants, xorn and xaren, the bizarre khargra, feylike pech, stunted shad and the fierce insectlike hordes.

Most of the denizens feed either on some element within the earth of the plane or on one another. Xorn, khargra and the small, wormlike faribma all contribute to a mutualistic ecosystem that sees each of them gaining something from the earth and leaving the rest refined for others. Entities such as delvers and denzelians add to this mixture. Where carrion blocks up the earth, the hardy insects known as the giggag are there to clean up the mess. The armored tosh then eats the giggag.

I'll do the other two when I get back.


Kinda crazy the artifacts that made their way over to Al Qadim

Planescape. The Great Sultan lives on the Elemental Plane of Fire.


Aside from gold and souls, what commodity is most used as a currency in the Planes? Especially for good aligned planes who wouldn't accept soul currency, what do they use?

Here y'go (http://www.mimir.net/barmy/coins.html).

[123456789blaaa]

Got some questions right above your post if you haven't seen em Afro.

[Brookshw]

Planescape. The Great Sultan lives on the Elemental Plane of Fire.


Ah, right, forgot the context of the discussion. Still kinda crazy (ish) about the obsidian man.

And questions, things sometimes get imprisoned in pandemonium, what are these prisons really like? I don't imagine you come around a tunnel bend mostly deaf and find some creature in stasis/bars/what have you. What kinda guardians do you envision?

[Larkas]

Thanks for the answers on the Inner Planes so far! Now, for something completely different, I've been flipping through my LGG, and came accross a few interesting subjects.

1) What can you tell us about the Olman "Sky Gods"?

2) Do you know anything about the Rhennee homeland of Rhop?

3) Since we're on the subject of the Rhennee, do they have anything to do with the Ravenloft's Vistani?