Orc stats (fyi they suuuuuuuuuuuck) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Blackhawk748

2014-09-16, 05:10 PM

Vogonjeltz

2014-09-16, 05:14 PM

Their favored class is Barbarian, what do they need the mind stats for?

dascarletm

2014-09-16, 05:18 PM

+4 to str is pretty nice.

In the lower levels, 1-4 (maybe 6) it makes orcs pretty deadly.

To make them more in line with a dwarf, I'd take the dwarf base and change it as such:

30ft. base speed (no keeping speed in med+ armor)
change the bonus of con to str.
change stonecutting for something similar and appropriate for orc fluff (survival maybe?)
Change the hatred to basically be opposite.

etc.

Alent

2014-09-16, 05:19 PM

Hmm. Maybe throw away the "Cha is classical beauty" attitude and give them +2 cha normally, but a -4 circumstance penalty when attempting to make use of social skills to interact with core races who have "cha is classical beauty" as a cultural handicap?

I see Orcs as being one of those strongwilled warrior races, so a high cha mechanically makes sense from the "force of will" interpretation.

Blackhawk748

2014-09-16, 05:25 PM

Their favored class is Barbarian, what do they need the mind stats for?

Skills, intimidating, not having their mind controlled? its not the penalties that im really annoyed with its the fact that you have a total of -6 stats and only +4 and no actual racials to speak of.

And i agree that the str makes them real scary at low levels, but its the distinct lack of anything else that is the main problem.

I mean lets compare them to a goliath, the goliath has +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex and powerful build as well as a few fun racial things. Ya their +1 LA but they still have a net +4 ability score whereas orcs are in the negatives as well as getting nothing else.

Snowbluff

2014-09-16, 05:29 PM

dascarletm

2014-09-16, 05:31 PM

I think WotC used to value one large bonus over multiple littler bonuses, and physical stats over mental for that matter.

That is they see a +4 > two +2.

But I think you could easily alter the dwarf race as a good base. Move the +2 and -2 around for different orc variants.

a more sorcerer inclined sub-race wouldn't have a cha penalty for example.

OldTrees1

2014-09-16, 05:32 PM

Water Orc: +4Str, +2Con, -2Int, -2Wis, -2Cha
Dragonborn* Unseelie Fey Water Orc: +2Str, +2Con, -2Int, -2Wis
*(to remove Unseelie's powerful abilities)

dascarletm

2014-09-16, 05:34 PM

They are part orc, too. Orcs are not predisposed to eloquence or intelligence. PF fixed it by just giving them the same bonus as Humans, which I felt was weird. Not very Orc...y.

How about +2 Str, -2 Cha, +4 intimidate?

I always wished that +'s and -'s to social skills would just be situational (for the most part).

What if in culture X they don't particularly trust orcs, but fear them (-2bluff/diplomacy, +4intimidate)
In culture Y they don't fear orcs (perhaps they are serfs) (-4 intimidate)

or something.

I personally would leave such things out of racial stats.

Blackhawk748

2014-09-16, 05:34 PM

How about +2 Str, -2 Cha, +4 intimidate?

This id prbly use for half orcs, maybe toss on a racial weapon prof?

I was thinkin for orcs, +4 str, -2 Int, -2 Cha, +4 intimidate, proficiency with the hand axe, battle axe, great axe and the orc double axe, and of course darkvision.

Snowbluff

2014-09-16, 05:38 PM

I always wished that +'s and -'s to social skills would just be situational (for the most part).

What if in culture X they don't particularly trust orcs, but fear them (-2bluff/diplomacy, +4intimidate)
In culture Y they don't fear orcs (perhaps they are serfs) (-4 intimidate)

or something.

I personally would leave such things out of racial stats.

I'd prefer the way I have it. Cultural things make it easy to be screwed by the DM. Intimidate in particular should not be subject to cultural stuff, anyway. It's not "I'm scary cuz people don't like orcs," it's "I'm scary because being an orc means I know how to be scary."

eggynack

2014-09-16, 05:41 PM

I think orcs are good enough as is, and water orcs definitely are. They're possibly the best race if you're going for maximum strength without LA. Half-orcs are less good, but at least they make really good druids.

nedz

2014-09-16, 05:49 PM

Yeah, Orcs don't live past level 4.

I think that the game designers over-rated Strength, you can see this if you look at the LA of several templates. This could be because Fighters are balanced with Casters, and all classes are the same tier.

Blue text colour omitted.

Extra Anchovies

2014-09-16, 05:55 PM

I think WotC used to value one large bonus over multiple littler bonuses, and physical stats over mental for that matter.

That is they see a +4 > two +2.

Actually, it's a little different from that. They see a +X to Dex or Str as balanced by -X to physicals stat or -(X+2) to mental stats (e.g. +2 str, -2 cha/int for half-orc; +4 str, -2 int/wis/cha for full orc). There's a table explaining it in the DMG, page 173.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-09-16, 05:59 PM

Why must every race be equal to or superior to the player's handbook races? Why shouldn't Orc stats suck?

They are part orc, too. Orcs are not predisposed to eloquence or intelligence. PF fixed it by just giving them the same bonus as Humans, which I felt was weird. Not very Orc...y.
Those are half-orcs, the orc racial mods are the same as in 3.5 with the addition of weapon familiarity and Ferocity.

Snowbluff

2014-09-16, 06:00 PM

Those are half-orcs, the orc racial mods are the same as in 3.5 with the addition of weapon familiarity and Ferocity.

Yerp. Misread the thingy. :smalltongue:

ace rooster

2014-09-16, 06:10 PM

+2 to attacks, damage, bull rush, trip, and grapples, with no combat penalties other than a -1 to feints. It is not a bad set of abilities, and at low levels the combat abilities are more important than the saves.

atemu1234

2014-09-16, 07:45 PM

I'd go with the following:

High Orc
Appearance: This being is green and mottled of skin, with a pug nose and pointed ears. His eyes are catlike and green, with slit pupils.

Alignment: Most High Orcs are true neutral, though no more than humans.

History: High Orcs were created by the interbreeding of Sharakhim (Races of Destiny) and normal Orcs. They are far more intelligent and less brutish than their lesser cousins, and favor their Sharakhim (is that even how you spell it) parent's society. They were first bred by warlords among Orcs for generals, but they soon proved to have a will of their own that wouldn't be subdued by their creator's brutishness.

Racial Traits:

Humanoid (Orc): High Orcs are still Orcs, as they say, and are humanoids with the Orc subtype.
+2 Str, -2 Cha: High Orcs are not as strong as their Orc progenitors, but are still strong of body. They do not interact well with other humanoids, who cannot help but see them as their brutish parents.
+2 racial bonus on Survival and Intimidate checks: High Orcs live in villages away from other races, trying to keep to themselves. Too often are they set upon by both their own kind and humans.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Medium Size
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. Many High Orcs view the Bastard Sword as the true weapon of their kind (don't ask why, I just thought it'd be cool)
Favored Class: Fighter or Barbarian (whichever they have more levels of).

Anlashok

2014-09-16, 08:05 PM

atemu1234

2014-09-16, 08:08 PM

+4 to your primary stat is awesome.

I mean, a Human Barbarian can take a 18-14-14-10-10-8 with their 32 point buy. An orc looking to take the same stat array only spends 28 points because he only needs a 14 in strength. Take those 4 left over points, dump then into int or charisma and bam, your orc is actually smarter or more charming than the human. Realistically you'd probably use those points on more strength or constitution or something but it highlights the point well.

Only in that form of point buy. My DMs and in a few of my campaigns I had point buy with straight points (1 to 1). 80 points, I saw characters with 18 in their primary stat, always, with very rarely a score below ten. It was awesome.

Anlashok

2014-09-16, 08:11 PM

Only in that form of point buy. My DMs and in a few of my campaigns I had point buy with straight points (1 to 1). 80 points, I saw characters with 18 in their primary stat, always, with very rarely a score below ten. It was awesome.

Hm. Personally never seen that form of point buy, but in that case... yeah you lose to the human unless you take water orc. Still 22 starting strength is still juicy.

NichG

2014-09-16, 08:37 PM

In general there's a nonlinear benefit to having large modifiers in one stat as opposed to having smaller modifiers in a number of stats. The reason is that its almost always the case that a character relies on one or two stats for most of their stuff, and of course a race that is as lopsided as an Orc is going to naturally be picked by a lot of people wanting to play Barbarians rather than people wanting to play Wizards (there are always exceptions of course). The nature of point buy makes this even more extreme, since you can basically pick up free points this way (as was shown in the previous posts).

In general +4, +2, -2 is the stat array for LA+1. +4 on LA 0 is rare though not unheard of, and it usually comes with sufficiently harsh penalties elsewhere that even SAD classes will feel it a bit. So you can think of the Orc -6/+4 as being '-4 to balance +4, then another -2 to balance the fact that a +4 in one stat is more valuable than two +2s'. So I'd leave the stat mods alone unless you want to make an LA+1 version of the Orc. The main problem is that other races/templates have been published which aren't really all that balanced, with the result being that the plain Orc hasn't kept up well compared to a properly templated Water Orc - so the Orc looks sucky by comparison.

The racial abilities could be mucked around with a bit though. Light Sensitivity in particular could be re-examined. It's there as a setting thing (e.g. a reason that the physically superior Orcs don't just overwhelm the surface world) but really the answer to that always seems to be 'high level adventurers' anyhow.

StreamOfTheSky

2014-09-17, 01:24 AM

The exponential value of a +4 makes it almost sorta worth it (but then the fact that it's str, the melee stat, and melee is subpar in 3E, lessens the value back down to earth), it's half-orcs that SUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.

That said, Dragonborn Water Orc is basically WotC's patch / hotfix for the entire race, and it works beautifully. +4 Str/Con for -2 to every other stat. You don't need Dragonborn (then it's +4 str, +2 Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha), but dragonborn gets rid of the annoying light sensitivity and fire spells/effects save penalty.

Ravens_cry

2014-09-17, 01:34 AM

Kaeso

2014-09-17, 02:46 AM

I may be wrong, but I think the biggest problem is that orcs get a net -6 on their stats (-2 on all mental stats) for only a +4 bonus. This should be evened out. In other words, either they should get +6 str (making them frickin' beasts that can destroy anything in their path), +4 str and +2 con (making them both powerful and durable) or they should lose one of the penalties (probably the -2 wis. This would still make orcs unlearned and savage without them having to be dim per se).

As for light sensitivity, I generally ignore it in my games, so that should be scrapped for orcs. Maybe throw in a few nice skill bonusses (like light sensitivity), automatic proficiency with a few special orc weapons and they should make for a pretty decent race.

Zombimode

2014-09-17, 03:30 AM

Seriously what is with those orc stats? -2 int, wis, and cha?? seems a tad overkill especially since you only get darkvision and +4 str, as well as the fact that you need to suck light sensitivity. The worst part is is that half orcs get it even worse as they dont even get a free weapon prof out of it.

I know that WotC has this burning hatred for "ugly" races, but this just seems nuts.

So how can we fix orcs and half orcs to bring them in line with the power level of say, dwarves?

Uhm, its all what you want them to accomplish. Orc as is make very good lower level "mook" type enemies. As a monster/NPC race they succeed. Given their role in many settings, having them as a player race wouldn't make much sense, either. So for Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, Orcs are good. Given that they were designed with that role in mind, I don't think there is a reason to blame the designers.

Now, if we look on orcs as a player race things look different. Apart from incredible narrow barbarian-types, they make very poor players characters. It also makes it difficult to integrate them better into the societies of the player races. This dissonance is very noticeable in Eberron. I'm pretty much a fan of all things Eberron and I like the role of the orcs in this setting. But their stats just don't match. I mean, Druids, really?

Greenish

2014-09-17, 03:31 AM

Well, the light sensitivity penalty to attack can be gotten rid off with 5 sp item. No biggie.

[Edit]:
Uhm, its all what you want them to accomplish. Orc as is make very good lower level "mook" type enemies.I dunno, high strength with low CR and a preference towards big two-handers (with high crit rate, no less) makes them pretty lethal.

Ravens_cry

2014-09-17, 04:03 AM

Indeed. If an Orc with average strength crits with a battle axe, that's a minimum of 12 damage which is enough to put many classes at first level into negatives, and an average between 19 and 20, which *is* more than enough to drop almost everybody at first level, and if they're raging, well, game over dude, game, bleeping over.

atemu1234

2014-09-17, 06:59 AM

Greenish

2014-09-17, 08:16 AM

I don't think we're talking about Orc Barbarians inasmuch as Orc Warriors (powerful, but not as) which are around CR what, 1/2?Yeah. Pair of those are EL 1 made to teach players never to skimp on Con.

emeraldstreak

2014-09-17, 08:33 AM

Orcs are awesome, water ones even more so; but they are not for newbies.

Ravens_cry

2014-09-17, 03:36 PM

I don't think we're talking about Orc Barbarians inasmuch as Orc Warriors (powerful, but not as) which are around CR what, 1/2?
Still,an Orc Warrior, with average stats, on a crit, will wreck you! A d8 class with +4 to Con (more than most can afford) will be at zero from a single, minimum damage crit, and the odds are against rolling Yahtzee.

Shining Wrath

2014-09-17, 04:02 PM

They suck pretty bad in 5e, too. AFB but IIRC -3 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, +4 Str, +2 Con.

Ravens_cry

2014-09-17, 04:19 PM

They suck pretty bad in 5e, too. AFB but IIRC -3 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, +4 Str, +2 Con.
Well, if they were good, they'd have taken over the world by now.:smalltongue:

emeraldstreak

2014-09-17, 04:22 PM

They suck pretty bad in 5e, too. AFB but IIRC -3 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, +4 Str, +2 Con.

they suuure do (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?737313-5e-Orcs-are-not-cannon-fodder-They-are-dangerous-Even-alone!)

Lord Vukodlak

2014-09-17, 05:20 PM

Again I ask, give me a reason why a race intended to be fodder for PC's to fight should have good stats?

atemu1234

2014-09-17, 05:22 PM

Again I ask, give me a reason why a race intended to be fodder for PC's to fight should have good stats?

Because balance.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-09-17, 05:24 PM

Because balance.
They aren't a standard PC race, so that reasoning doesn't apply. You could make that argument for half-orcs because they are a standard playable race but not for full blood orcs.

atemu1234

2014-09-17, 05:30 PM

They aren't a standard PC race, so that reasoning doesn't apply. You could make that argument for half-orcs because they are a standard playable race but not for full blood orcs.

Balance between players and non-players is still kind of important. Some people like to run into the same (albeit differently-built) races throughout a game. If the plot at level one is that a full-blooded orc is amassing an army of his kin to destroy all humans, then I kind of want his army to be Orcs.

Also, the OP did mention half-orcs.

Blackhawk748

2014-09-17, 05:37 PM

Again I ask, give me a reason why a race intended to be fodder for PC's to fight should have good stats?

because most of the other fodder actually have something, goblins get a +4 on move silently and ride and are small, Hobgoblins get a +2 dex and con, Bugbears get a mess of bonuses, even kobolds get something for the massive hit to their con (its not a lot but its something). But i look at the normal orc and i go "how are these things a threat?" they have 8s or lower in all mental stats, im amazed they even know how to coordinate a freakin ambush, which they do a lot in fluff, as their raids typically start with an ambush.

I just look and go, really dude, really?

Oh and half orc stats make me cry a little.

Lord Vukodlak

2014-09-17, 05:44 PM

Balance between players and non-players is still kind of important.
The encounters are supposed to be balanced, and often that's best achieved by having multiple weaker enemies then smaller numbers of elite enemies.

Some people like to run into the same (albeit differently-built) races throughout a game. If the plot at level one is that a full-blooded orc is amassing an army of his kin to destroy all humans, then I kind of want his army to be Orcs.
Nothing stops you from doing that with Orcs, the penalty to all mental stats isn't that crippling for a guy who'll probably live around 3 rounds of combat.

Also, the OP did mention half-orcs.More as an after thought,

because most of the other fodder actually have something, goblins get a +4 on move silently and ride and are small, Hobgoblins get a +2 dex and con, Bugbears get a mess of bonuses, even kobolds get something for the massive hit to their con (its not a lot but its something). But i look at the normal orc and i go "how are these things a threat?" they have 8s or lower in all mental stats, im amazed they even know how to coordinate a freakin ambush, which they do a lot in fluff, as their raids typically start with an ambush.

I just look and go, really dude, really?

Oh and half orc stats make me cry a little.

What does the penalty to those mental stats mean to a front line martial character? nothing absolutely nothing. Wolves have an intelligence of 2 and they can coordinate an ambush. In a head on fight against low level PC's Orcs are a bigger threat then hobgoblins, kobolds or regular goblins, simply because that boost to strength is so significant a that level 99% of the world population is supposed to live at

And kobolds don't get anything for there pathetic stat penalties, -4 Strength and -2 Con. As something actually playable they are just about the worst thing you can pick. (ignoring dragon-wrought stuff)

emeraldstreak

2014-09-17, 05:57 PM

they have 8s or lower in all mental stats, im amazed they even know how to coordinate a freakin ambush, which they do a lot in fluff, as their raids typically start with an ambush.

There are plenty of jokes about the average intelligence of armed forces around the world, and yet they are competent in combat tactics, unlike typical DnD posters.

In fact, most mammalian predators are able to set up decent ambushes, "with Int 2".

Orcs's high Str bonus is great for what they do. They are a specialized race, and as such are better than regular races in their chosen focus. If they happen to be weak in 3.x, it's because martial classes are weak there. Blame the class, not the race.

I don't expect Orcs to be weak in 5e, because martial classes, while still inferior to casters, are much improved overall.

Blackhawk748

2014-09-17, 06:18 PM

In fact, most mammalian predators are able to set up decent ambushes, "with Int 2".

but they have Wis 10 or higher, orcs dont, they have freakin 7.

As for the kobolds, they get some skill stuff, small size, and a nat armor bonus, i didnt say it evened out but they get more than orcs

emeraldstreak

2014-09-17, 06:35 PM

As for the kobolds, they get some skill stuff, small size, and a nat armor bonus, i didnt say it evened out but they get more than orcs

What matters is how much a race can improve the main focus of your build. At that, Orcs are great, as is any other +4 primary attribute race that has -2s in tertiary attributes.

Baroknik

2014-09-17, 07:44 PM

What matters is how much a race can improve the main focus of your build. At that, Orcs are great, as is any other +4 primary attribute race that has -2s in tertiary attributes.

This. So much this. From a min/max perspective, stats are easy enough to pidgeonhole for most builds. The argument of having below average mental stats for squad tactics misrepresents that it really takes one person with an above average stat and subordinates to maneuver effectively. While the population percentage of high int/wis/cha is lower for orcs than for humans, those characters still exist.
From an average human perspective, the difference between 16 and 18 in a mental stat is the difference between *** laude and summa *** laude -- both people are really smart.

Edit: funny censorship there

NichG

2014-09-17, 08:38 PM

Not to mention that things like setting up an ambush and so on can be something which is known and figured out culturally rather than individually. You don't even need a very bright leader if every orc is trained from childhood on military-style situations on a day to day basis, and there are oral histories of how all the great orc armies of the past won their victories through ambushes, surrounding the enemy, etc. Maybe your average orc doesn't manage to remember that it was the year 321 in which general Grammosh performed his maneuver, but over many exposures the idea of 'be sneaky and attack when they don't expect it' will permeate, even if the orcs don't understand on an explicit level why it works but just repeat the tactics of their ancestors by rote.

Anyhow, balance really isn't about 'do the modifiers add up to zero or more?'. It's about what you can pull out of the option if you make other choices to play to its strengths and shore up its weaknesses. Think about it this way: a race that gives +10 Int and -2 to all other stats has a net +0 modifier, but no one would ever play a Wizard of any other race. Its because by making a second choice (playing a Wizard) you make those -2 to other stats much less relevant than the fact that the +10 to Int sets a record for how high you can get your starting Int at LA 0. Even +10 Int and -4 to all other stats would still likely be worth it, even though it has a net -10 modifier.