What ever happened to Law and Chaos?

[...]

When it comes to campaigns and even sourcebooks, the Law and Chaos alignments seem to just be classified as personality quirks, and the only real enmity being between good and evil. Not only do good and evil get their own matching magic items, they get their own matching spells, their own matching domains, and their own matching sourcebooks. Law and chaos, on the other hand, are just thrown a couple of LN and CN creatures to make them shut up. Devils are always portrayed as evil, but their lawful tendencies are just thrown aside as "oh, yeah, they have governments. The demons don't have governments. Devils are lawful." When it comes to good outsiders, on the other hand, we just have "Archons are existent. Ealdrins like parties. Everyone is friends with each other and have no problem stomaching their companion's flagrant violations of their moral beliefs at all." Am I alone in this, or do other people agree?

[nedz]

It's been mentioned before. Maybe the pure good and pure evil books didn't sell very well — who knows ?

Myself I want to see Complete Balance, but maybe that would be asking for trouble. :smalltongue:

There are books which contain features for classes which are nominally chaotic: Bard, Barbarians etc.

[Garktz]

I.ll put my bet on
LE and CE can go together as CG and LG also can go together but LE and LG cant go together and CE and CG also cant go together

So a book about good or evil can cover all alignments but law or chaos cant

[Greenish]

Well, there's the Blood War, that's a pretty major thing Law and Chaos are doing. They also have their matching domains and matching spells (even if those are mostly carbon copies of the Good/Evil ones), their own maneuvers, their own soulmelds…

Still, they do often feel sort of an afterthought, as if the writers weren't sure what to do with them. It doesn't help the Moorcock books didn't have a separe Good/Evil thing going on.

[...]

I.ll put my bet on
LE and CE can go together as CG and LG also can go together but LE and LG cant go together and CE and CG also cant go together

So a book about good or evil can cover all alignments but law or chaos cant

I don't see why you think that. No matter how much mercy and compassion a demon or an ealdrin has, they're both equally opposed to law. Obviously, that doesn't mean that they would get along with each other, but there should be something that they have in common.

[afroakuma]

I feel the call of a question...

So let's talk about Law and Chaos, about Good and Evil.

In the beginning, when the primal forces were new, the battle lines were drawn between the building blocks of an ordered reality and the nebulous dreams and whims of capricious, formless concepts. The Inner Planes, the home of elementals, were conquered by a powerful race known as the vaati, masters of Law who wanted to impose Order and promote a Structure to reality. The Outer Planes, the home of outsiders, were divided among numerous loyalties. Among their number, however, was a creature determined that her kind should not be fettered by the impositions of these lesser creatures. Whatever name she might have had is long lost to time, but she is still remembered by her title: the Queen of Chaos.

An obyrith demon of noted power, the Queen of Chaos looked beyond the realms of her fellows and saw Order encroaching on their freedom. Gathering the obyriths to her side, she found other allies - the alien slaad and the rebellious eladrin, as well as the dispossessed lords of the Inner Planes who would not bend to the rule of the vaati. The conflict that they would strike was known as the War of Law and Chaos, and it was the greatest and most terrible battle the multiverse ever saw.

When the war ended in the retreat of Chaos, Law was safe to rest. Its champions, the vaati, had been decimated in the struggle, and their power base fractured and split. This was the time when mortals and their gods took on greater preeminence. Good and Evil, always on the sidelines in the great War, now bore new relevance to those who once were allied under a greater cause. Perhaps Good asserted itself because of the war's destructiveness; perhaps Evil asserted itself because of the war's futility. In any event, with Law quiescent and Chaos divided upon itself and licking its wounds, there was a power vacuum for new forces to take up the slack.

In the current eon, one where mortal souls are key to power, the War of Law and Chaos is but a memory, carried on in a proxy fight between the devils and demons and in strife and division in the celestial ranks. Good glares balefully across the rift at Evil and works tirelessly to diminish and destroy that hated force; Evil casts back its malevolent gaze and works opportunistically to subvert and break its rival.

Of course, the War of Good and Evil is a cold war thus far, and when the real conflict rears its head once more, those two lesser powers will once again find themselves making compromises and splitting into two camps.

[Anlashok]

Can't say I see that... in fact the Hells tend to be more interested in stopping Chaos than they are Good. To the point where...

I.ll put my bet on
LE and CE can go together as CG and LG also can go together but LE and LG cant go together and CE and CG also cant go together

So a book about good or evil can cover all alignments but law or chaos cant

I think there's an order buried in some book (maybe pathfinder) that's essentially an alliance between asmodeus' hellknights and clerics of some big name LG god that work together to crush demons.

[Sartharina]

I don't see why you think that. No matter how much mercy and compassion a demon or an ealdrin has, they're both equally opposed to law. Obviously, that doesn't mean that they would get along with each other, but there should be something that they have in common.But the Good/Evil determines how they react to it.

The Archons and Eladrin don't see their differences as something worth fighting over, because that amount of fighting would be Evil, which they are both against.

[Jon_Dahl]

OP has an excellent point.
It seems to me that people understand (and disagree with each other) what is good and evil. Chaos and law is hard to understand for many, so they are left sitting on backseat.

[Eldan]

I.ll put my bet on
LE and CE can go together as CG and LG also can go together but LE and LG cant go together and CE and CG also cant go together

So a book about good or evil can cover all alignments but law or chaos cant

Yeah, no. The Blood War is the major planar conflict, and it's fought between Chaos and Law. And the books make it pretty clear that the Modrons and Archons don't want the Tanar'ri to win and the Eladrin and Slaad would hate to see Baator triumph, so if it should ever come to that, the lines are drawn.

[Desthro]

After having read Deities and Demigods, I always joked with my friend that all the alignments were actually overdeities imposing their alien will upon the multiverse. Maybe good and evil are just stronger overdeities than law and chaos ;)

[Inevitability]

I don't know if anyone's played the free online game Perdition (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/641030) (if not, play it), but without spoiling too much, it is a pretty good example of Law versus Chaos.

[Greenish]

Yeah, no. The Blood War is the major planar conflict, and it's fought between Chaos and Law. And the books make it pretty clear that the Modrons and Archons don't want the Tanar'ri to win and the Eladrin and Slaad would hate to see Baator triumph, so if it should ever come to that, the lines are drawn.Well, basically no one (except the fighters themselves) wants either side to win.

[Svata]

Well, basically no one (except the fighters themselves) wants either side to win.

So? Its still the major planar conflict of at least two editions.

[Kaeso]

I.ll put my bet on
LE and CE can go together as CG and LG also can go together but LE and LG cant go together and CE and CG also cant go together

So a book about good or evil can cover all alignments but law or chaos cant

I wouldn't be too sure about LE and LG not being able to go together (unless the LG is a paladin, but that's some arbitrary rule which has little to do with alignment per se). Since Lawful more or less means honorable, I can very easily imagine two knights working for the same lord. One would emphasize the need to aid the poor and protect the meek, the other would take a bit too much enthousiasm in taking down the enemies of his lord, but both would be great examples of chivalry. Of course the two would have conflicts, but a LG knight would also have conflicts with a CG rogue who seeks to undermine the existing order. In fact, I can probably imagine a LG knight having more of a conflict with a CG rogue than with a LE fellow knight, because at least the LE knight respects the authority of his liege.

[Eldan]

Sure, no one wants anyone to win. But they want one side to win even less than the other.

Look at it from the perspective of, say, the Archons. The demons are raving maniacs who will, given time, corrupt, destroy, eat and kill everything, including each other. They can not be reasoned with, they will probably not keep even the simplest bargains. The devils, on the other hand? Many of them were archons, once, at least the leadership. They have contracts that they can be assumed to at least try to hold up. They might hate heaven and try to enslave everything too, in the end, but they have a stable hierarchy and rulers who know what they are doing.

So, what would happen if the devils were to start losing the war? The archons would be tempted to help. Because the devils losing is just worse for them than the demons losing. If the wins win, everything is lost. If the devils win, they can negotiate. Get them to maybe concentrate on the Slaad next, because having the Slaad destroyed? That's not so bad, no one wants them anyway. Or maybe they could try and bring the Yugoloths back in line.

The Eladrin surely have similar justifications about the demons. A demon may kill you, but a devil will imprison you in the most terrible dystopian system ever deviced, where everything is cold and brutal efficiency. They are beings of freedom, of flame and wind, for them, that is worse than death. That is everything their very nature is opposed to.

These thoughs would be at the back of the mind of every Eladrin and Archon who engaged in intra-celestial diplomacy. They have, to a degree, similar outlooks on the multiverse. But they know, deep down, that if it came to it, they would gladly toss each other to the wolves of the lower planes if it meant not having the greater of two evils win.

[Kaeso]

Sure, no one wants anyone to win. But they want one side to win even less than the other.

Look at it from the perspective of, say, the Archons. The demons are raving maniacs who will, given time, corrupt, destroy, eat and kill everything, including each other. They can not be reasoned with, they will probably not keep even the simplest bargains. The devils, on the other hand? Many of them were archons, once, at least the leadership. They have contracts that they can be assumed to at least try to hold up. They might hate heaven and try to enslave everything too, in the end, but they have a stable hierarchy and rulers who know what they are doing.

So, what would happen if the devils were to start losing the war? The archons would be tempted to help. Because the devils losing is just worse for them than the demons losing. If the wins win, everything is lost. If the devils win, they can negotiate. Get them to maybe concentrate on the Slaad next, because having the Slaad destroyed? That's not so bad, no one wants them anyway. Or maybe they could try and bring the Yugoloths back in line.

The Eladrin surely have similar justifications about the demons. A demon may kill you, but a devil will imprison you in the most terrible dystopian system ever deviced, where everything is cold and brutal efficiency. They are beings of freedom, of flame and wind, for them, that is worse than death. That is everything their very nature is opposed to.

These thoughs would be at the back of the mind of every Eladrin and Archon who engaged in intra-celestial diplomacy. They have, to a degree, similar outlooks on the multiverse. But they know, deep down, that if it came to it, they would gladly toss each other to the wolves of the lower planes if it meant not having the greater of two evils win.

Yes, I'd be inclined to agree with this. In a conflict between the Abyss and the Nine Hells, the Archons and other LG celestials would almost certainly pick the side they like the most (or hate the least).

[Madhava]

OP is correct. But this makes sense, if you consider:

Altruism (good), ethical egoism (neutrality, as it pertains to good/evil), & extreme/more-ruthless egoism (possibly with a bent towards moral-nihilism and/or solipsism) (or however you'd like to define evil); these alignments, so to speak, all pertain to morality.

Law & chaos are not concerned with morality. These are just vehicles; they are means to an end. That end being either virtue or self-gratification; morality or a lack-thereof; Good or Awesome.

One can use authoritarianism or anarchism, to promote either goodness or self-gain. So yes, it makes sense that lawful good & chaotic good would high-five each other. They're both aiming for the same end-result. They're just using different road maps.

The Blood War sort of makes sense, also. Evil societies are, by nature, self-defeating. If an evil being seeks to serve only the self, then all which is not the self, is fair game to be subjugated, or killed. Aliiances of conveniance and all that.

[Greenish]

So? Its still the major planar conflict of at least two editions.I never implied otherwise.

[Necroticplague]

On a somewhat related note, does anyone find the Slaads a bit.....underwhelming as forces of chaos?As in, they don't really seem to represent Chaos all that well. When it comes to their basic form, their seems to be a ridiculously little variety, and they have a very orderly method of ascending the ranks (or making one that can), they spend part of their cycle during such as a CE creature. Honestly, a handful of aberrations and shapechangers seem like they would make better Chaotic outsiders. And honestly, you can say similar for their home plane, given how relatively easy it can be bent to ones own will. You'd think a place of sheer Chaos would violently resist such control. Really, it seems like it would make much more sense to switch the Far Realms and Limbo.

[Yora]

It seems to me that people understand (and disagree with each other) what is good and evil. Chaos and law is hard to understand for many, so they are left sitting on backseat.
The problem is that Law and Chaos have never really defined as concepts. In the first version, there was only Law and Chaos, which were used identically to Good and Evil. Law is defending civilization, Chaos is destroying it.
At some point the players handbook said that Law and Chaos are not the same as Good and Evil, but never explained what the difference would be.

[Eldan]

That is actually in their fluff.

The original Slaad, as they were at the birth of hte multiverse, were formless. Shifting just as much as Limbo around them, even being destroyed and remade commonly.

Then, some of the most powerful Slaad decided to lock the rest of the race into limited castes, to eliminate the chance that a more powerful form would be born.


I'm not too fond of it, really. Almost entirely sure that it is a post-hoc explanation that reeks of apologism.


As for why Limbo can be controlled: remember that it is, in a way, heaven for the chaotics. If you have the willpower, you can create whatever you want. It is the ultimate canvas that allows anyone to be an artist. The only limit is your own mind and creativity and that you need to enforce both over the ideas of others around you.

[emeraldstreak]

belkar and elan are a good example of how cg and ce sometimes get along, esp. for making fun of lawful ppl (roy).

[Necroticplague]

That is actually in their fluff.

The original Slaad, as they were at the birth of hte multiverse, were formless. Shifting just as much as Limbo around them, even being destroyed and remade commonly.

Then, some of the most powerful Slaad decided to lock the rest of the race into limited castes, to eliminate the chance that a more powerful form would be born.


I'm not too fond of it, really. Almost entirely sure that it is a post-hoc explanation that reeks of apologism.
Yeah, I'm aware of the entire Spawning Stone thing. It just seems kinda idiotic to me as well. It makes as much sense as making a bunch of squamous, far realm horrors the avatars of Law, then trying to smooth over the contradiction by saying "oh yeah, these used to be a complicated caste system. The second highest caste hated that they weren't in the first, so they created a ridiculously Chaotic artifact to change them to how they are now by eliminating the castes".

Fair enough point on the ability for Limbo to be controlled.

[Brookshw]

Just wanted to leave this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1102646) here.

[atemu1234]

IMHO, you don't see much on chaos-law because good and evil are much more likely to kill each other over a disagreement- in part because they are better defined. You see a man kill a guard - you're not going to kill him because he's chaotic, you're going to kill him because he's evil.

Law and Chaos aren't as well defined as good and evil (still not that well defined), so you'd also be dealing with the following situation:

Player: I make a serial killer who kills other killers. (Using Dexter as an example)
DM: Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil?

Heck, I could make a case for Chaotic Evil, even. The alignments overlap in some cases. It's kind of annoying.

[Daishain]

The problem is that Law and Chaos have never really defined as concepts. In the first version, there was only Law and Chaos, which were used identically to Good and Evil. Law is defending civilization, Chaos is destroying it.
At some point the players handbook said that Law and Chaos are not the same as Good and Evil, but never explained what the difference would be.
That's a bit extreme, and quite contrary to the fluff I'm familiar with. The most chaotic thief around probably wants civilization to stick around and be quite healthy, that's how he makes a living after all. Bards and sorcerers are in a similar situation, in spite of also usually tending towards chaotic. Hell, even the barbarians often have a rudimentary form of civilization that they're unlikely to willingly let go of.

A chaotic character feels no obligation to abide by the rules, especially if there are no immediate consequences for doing so. That's it. Now, a chaotic character is much more likely to oppose a lawful establishment if given reason to, and there are going to be chaotic characters (almost all also evil) who would choose to demolish civilization in general, but those represent variant agendas within the alignment rather than the alignment itself.

I do think that there should be more in the way of conflict between the extremes on the L-C scale, and that characters from those opposing alignments are likely to grate on each other if grouped together. But opposing evil is generally a much more compelling binding factor than opposing civilization or opposing those who stand outside it. Even in cases where freedom fighters gather together to topple a government, it is almost invariably a corrupt government, one that is slipping to the evil side of the scale, if it isn't there already.

[Segev]

I think Law and Chaos are as represented as Good and Evil, honestly. The real issue, to me, is that the distinctions seem to vanish in the Upper Planes, as you so rarely hear about conflicts (even non-violent ones) between Celestials of opposing stripes. You'd think Eladrins and Angels would have issues with each other. Sure, they're all Good, so they're not going to throw down in a bloody battle over their disagreements, but the politics of Good should be more interesting than they are.

Part of it might simply be that Good tends not to feel a need to impose its brand of Good on others if those others are doing okay. The Chaotic Good, obviously, are all about personal choices and freedom, and will only go to war to protect themselves or others from oppression and abuse. The Lawful Good may expect that everybody is better off when rules are written for the betterment of all and are followed to the spirit and the letter, but as long as nobody is being hurt (and their laws do not demand it), they're not going to go battle people, either.

It may offend the sensibilities of an Angel to know that the Eladrin don't foster any sort of order, and to recognize that they break their agreements with each other frequently, but that's still not the Angels' business. They have no interest in conquest and rule for their own aggrandizement, so as long as the Eladrin are not fomenting unrest in the Angels' homeplanes, it's not Good to attack them. It's not particularly Lawful, either, since their Laws are written with an eye towards Good.

Similarly, the Eladrin may find the rigidity and rigor of the Angels' courts stifling, and point out with sorrow how laws sometimes get in the way of what is best. But unless the Angels start trying to force the Eladrin into oppressive contracts, or start refusing to allow beings to choose their own path, there's nothing to war with them over. It would not be Good, and Chaos demands everybody make their own choices...including whether to follow somebody else's rules. It would be Evil to decide your choices FOR them are more important than their own.

But still, there should be more front-and-center debate and rivalry, I think.

[Psyren]

The simple answer is that the Law-Chaos conflict is less important.

Consider the bigger fight, Good vs. Evil. Let's theorize for a moment that Good were to win. Since Good implies "respect for life," they would respect people's desire to live the way they want to, such as Celestia in both D&D and OotS being encouraging/cajoling to its petitioners, but still letting you climb the Mountain at your own pace, rather than dictating how fast you get absorbed into the plane. And Arborea is chaotic, but not truly random, because evil and harmful things cannot take root there - even Arborea has barriers and therefore rules. You won't be wandering a wild grove in Arborea and suddenly end up in the clutches of an assassin vine or black pudding.

In short, if Good won, the Law-Chaos conflict would end too, because Good would see the need for both points of view. Enforcing Pure Law or Pure Chaos would cause suffering in the hearts of those who did not want either. Celestia would not go to war with Arborea, nor vice-versa. They likely wouldn't even wipe out the neutral planes, since Inevitables and Slaadi are living creatures too, and not actively seeking to harm innocents the way fiends are.


(Now, I would not expect a victory by Good to be a stable equilibrium. Evil would return if you left the neutral planes intact - Limbo, being purely random, would eventually generate a demon or two; meanwhile over in Mechanus, some inevitables or Modrons might logically decide to create devils, because as Asmodeus is fond of saying, "Law is nothing without Punishment.")

[Red Fel]

The simple answer is that the Law-Chaos conflict is less important.

I have to disagree. It's not that it's less important. It's that it's more abstract.

What's the difference between feeding an orphan and kicking a puppy? Good and Evil, that's easy.

What's the difference between freeing the slaves and honoring the king? What's the difference between killing for fun and becoming a tyrant? These are Chaos versus Law questions, and they're more abstract, more nuanced.

It's easy to point to an action, in a vacuum, and say "This is Good," or "This is Evil." It's easy to try to play a Good character or an Evil character. Look at his motivations. Save the world? Protect the innocent? Conquer the kingdom? Bloody vengeance? Good, Evil, writ large.

But the Law-Chaos spectrum is more abstract. Not less important, just less quantifiable. I've heard it described as "Good or Evil is what you do, Law or Chaos is how you do it," and that's helpful, if incomplete. It's not hard to quantify "pure Good": it's selflessness, generosity, compassion; it's putting others before yourself, or choosing what's right over what's easy, or taking a third option when the only two choices cause suffering. It's not hard to quantify "pure Evil" either: it's more than selfishness, but the active pursuit of the suffering of others; more than mere pragmatism, but self-promotion at the expense of those around you; it's the ultimate in schadenfreude, the culmination of sin, and a wonderful way to live your life. Quantifying "pure Law" and "pure Chaos" is harder; instinctively, we will try to express them with a Good or Evil charge. When we try to quantify them, inevitably we give examples of LG or LE, or CG or CE, to help illustrate. It's simply easier to think of them in terms of Good and Evil than in a vacuum, at least for many people.

That's why I think, to get back to the OP, the C-L spectrum gets short shrift compared to the G-E spectrum.

[Chronos]

Quoth Segev:

I think Law and Chaos are as represented as Good and Evil, honestly. The real issue, to me, is that the distinctions seem to vanish in the Upper Planes, as you so rarely hear about conflicts (even non-violent ones) between Celestials of opposing stripes. You'd think Eladrins and Angels would have issues with each other. Sure, they're all Good, so they're not going to throw down in a bloody battle over their disagreements, but the politics of Good should be more interesting than they are.
I think you actually hit the key point, there. The conflict between chaotic good and lawful good is just politics. They disagree just as strongly as LE and CE; they just express those disagreements through spirited debate instead of through violence. The thing is, though, most players of RPGs don't find spirited debates as fun as violence, so that gets less coverage in the books (though you do certainly see it among players who do enjoy that sort of thing).

[Milo v3]

I could see Angels and Eladrins doing duels in arguments, though obviously only one side will likely be expected to be honourable. Good thing angels are stronger overall compared to Eladrin, means the eladrins's cheating probably makes duels more fair.

[Eldan]

I wouldn't say Archons* are stronger...

3.5 doesn't have the full set of 7 archons in the core MM, but the Trumpet is CR 14. The Ghaele is 13, not much weaker. The strongest forms of neither are in the MM.

The list on Wizards puts Eladrin from CR 2 (Coure) to 18 (Tulani) and Archons from 2 (Lantern) to 15 (Throne). 16 for the Hound Hero, that's class levels. So, if anything, Eladrin are stronger.

*It annoys me when people call Archons "Angels". "Angel" is a name for the Aasimon, not the Archons. Angels aren't even exemplars. They are also "any good" in alignment.

[Necroticplague]

*It annoys me when people call Archons "Angels". "Angel" is a name for the Aasimon, not the Archons. Angels aren't even exemplars. They are also "any good" in alignment.

This is slightly news to me. I thought that "angel" meant Good Outsider (covering archons, eladrins, and whatever the heck the NG guys are), just like how "fiend" means Evil Outsider (covering devils, demons, and yugoloths).

[Divide by Zero]

That's a bit extreme, and quite contrary to the fluff I'm familiar with. The most chaotic thief around probably wants civilization to stick around and be quite healthy, that's how he makes a living after all. Bards and sorcerers are in a similar situation, in spite of also usually tending towards chaotic. Hell, even the barbarians often have a rudimentary form of civilization that they're unlikely to willingly let go of.

But you're using the 3E definition of Chaotic here.

[Milo v3]

I wouldn't say Archons* are stronger...

Keep forgetting Angels aren't the lawful good ones.... Not sure how that got in my head in the first place now that I think about it... :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Am I alone in this, or do other people agree?
This is a misleading phrasing.

If you mean what you said: Yep. Just as it should be, they treat whether a character believes in order or chaos as much less important than whether that character is good or evil.

If you mean the unstated "And that's terrible" I find myself seeing between the sentence I quoted and the one right before it, you're inexplicably not on your own but I'm certainly not with you.

[Psyren]

This is slightly news to me. I thought that "angel" meant Good Outsider (covering archons, eladrins, and whatever the heck the NG guys are), just like how "fiend" means Evil Outsider (covering devils, demons, and yugoloths).

The blanket term for "upper planes Good Outsiders," at least according to BoED, is "celestials." This is despite only one of the three groups being native to Celestia. Their leading bodies - i.e. the Hebdomad, Court of Stars and 5 Companions - are called "celestial paragons."

This is part of why I like Pathfinder's use of "Heaven" for the LG afterlife more heavily than "Celestia."


This is a misleading phrasing.

If you mean what you said: Yep. Just as it should be, they treat whether a character believes in order or chaos as much less important than whether that character is good or evil.

If you mean the unstated "And that's terrible" I find myself seeing between the sentence I quoted and the one right before it, you're inexplicably not on your own but I'm certainly not with you.

Yeah, that.

[SaintRidley]

I'm thinking Limbo and the Slaadi might even be less primordial chaos than everyone supposes. Perhaps the Far Realm is the original chaos of the cosmos, Limbo the pale shade of it allowed to exist within the Great Wheel for the sake of balance. When (if) the Far Realm rises to reclaim reality, everything from the most Lawful Modron to the most Chaotic Slaad Lord (or even Pale Night, the shadow of the Queen of Chaos) will tremble at what true Chaos is.

The cosmos inherently carries a bent toward Law, and even the most Chaotic within it have that touch of Law which is detestable to the true Chaos outside.

[Greenish]

whatever the heck the NG guys areFurries. (Or Guardinals.)

[Psyren]

I'm thinking Limbo and the Slaadi might even be less primordial chaos than everyone supposes. Perhaps the Far Realm is the original chaos of the cosmos, Limbo the pale shade of it allowed to exist within the Great Wheel for the sake of balance. When (if) the Far Realm rises to reclaim reality, everything from the most Lawful Modron to the most Chaotic Slaad Lord (or even Pale Night, the shadow of the Queen of Chaos) will tremble at what true Chaos is.

The cosmos inherently carries a bent toward Law, and even the most Chaotic within it have that touch of Law which is detestable to the true Chaos outside.

I'm inclined to agree, because Limbo (for all its chaos) still fits orderly into the Wheel framework. The Far Realm is true chaos, to the point of defying the wheel's structure and all reason.

[Segev]

It's actually pretty easy to quantify Absolute Law, too: It is dispassionate adherence to the rules, with measured discussion and careful process for everything, especially changing the rules. And even in changing the rules, Absolute Law does so only with an eye towards correcting inclarity or better reflecting the goal of the rule, never to reduce the scope of the rules in general nor encourage "personal interpretation" over clear precision.

From a non-ruler's perspective, Absolute Law is basically machine logic: it does what the rules say to do, precisely and exactly (or at least within the best of its ability).

It's a little harder for me to conceptualize and characterize Absolute Chaos in the way that it works as an alignment. Another post hit part of the problem: the Far Realms are really where "primordial chaos" of the no-laws-of-nature-exist variety are meant to be handled. Limbo, Chaos of the Planes, is again more about freedom.

The reason it's harder to talk about Absolute Chaos is because freedom to choose for yourself without concern for external rules means that there is no "ruler" other than yourself.

In Absolute Law, I had to discuss that there are measured and precise ways to change the laws by specified process. This is because Absolute Law still has sentient ruling entities who have goals and who acknowledge the goals of others; order has no purpose without purpose, else how can you even tell if it's behaving in an orderly fashion? But Law is about the interaction of all the moving parts, and expectation of what the other parts will do based on agreed-upon and acknowledge procedures and traditions.

Chaos - in the alignment sense - has every entity sovereign. Absolute Chaos acknowledges no authority save the hard reality of physical (or metaphysical) incapability. It's much easier to discuss CG and CE, because CG respects the rights of all entities to be sovereign, as long as they respect the rights of others to do the same. CE does not, and in fact often revels in simply being strong enough to be that hard, cold reality of incapability to another being. CE enjoys lording power over others.

CG limits itself from swinging its fist into another's face. CE is limited only by the fact that another's face is there, and that other's mouth might bite off CE's fist.

It's harder to discuss what CN does and why, and thus harder still to think about Absolute Chaos. Absolute Chaos definitely is not without free will. It is not "flip a coin and do whatever it says" or "there's an equal probability of any given action." Beings of Absolute Chaos are just as sentient and free-willed as beings of Absolute Law. (Absolute Law restricts to the rules, yes, but they still have wills and drives of their own.)

Absolute Chaos must, I think, be the loneliest of alignments. Not CG, they don't particularly care about others enough to specifically respect that they must curb themselves wrt those others' freedoms. Not CE, they don't lord their power over other, weaker beings in order to "prove" they have no boundaries and can do anything they want. Absolute sovereigns of themselves, they recognize this is also true of other free-willed beings. But it's hard to define them without ascribing either good or evil behaviors to their choices on how to interact with others. Stating they had a certain amount of realpolitik and pragmatism, but would otherwise trample anything that got in their way, is really leaning them towards the more intelligent of CE types. Claiming they have respect for the sovereign rights of other individuals, and thus self-restrain to first try to find mutually-beneficial solutions to any conflicts leans them more towards CG.

Absolute Law will obey the rules, regardless of whether they lead to good or ill. They will only consider changing the rules (by the prescribed processes and with careful deliberation of consequences both intended and otherwise) only if they perceive that a result of the current ones is undesirable to their own sensibilities. And even then, they will follow the rules as-is despite thinking them less than optimal unless and until those rules do change.

Absolute Chaos does what it wants. I think the only way to really handle it is to give it a sort of dispassion towards others. The realpolitik and pragmatism of working with entities which might present obstacles more costly to bowl through, combined with a statement that they have enough empathy to be willing to do small favors if asked ("please don't step on me; lengthen your stride by a foot to miss, so I may live"), and that they take no pleasure in harming others. Others they harm just happen to be in the way or the most expedient tools to use.

It separates from CE by the virtue that it will take a little effort if asked; it can appreciate others' rights enough to choose an option that is less harmful to others if it is not a big deal to it. CE might do the same, but would do so because it wanted to make the "beneficiaries" feel they owed him something. Or he might deliberately choose the path of greater pain for others, just because he ENJOYS their suffering.

It separates from CG because it isn't going to go tremendously out of its way to protect others from its own expedient behaviors. A little bit, perhaps, but nothing truly noteworthy from Absolute Chaos's perspective.

Callous and dispassionate, but not essentially cruel and not without ability to grant a little bit of mercy when convenient.

[Brookshw]

I'm inclined to agree, because Limbo (for all its chaos) still fits orderly into the Wheel framework. The Far Realm is true chaos, to the point of defying the wheel's structure and all reason.

I'm sure a part of it is that the far realm was a later addition to the game so the niche had already been filled. On another level though I sort of disagree as the far realm is in some essence the antithesis if reality as d&d knows it, while limbo is chaos within the realized nature of reality.

[afroakuma]

The thing about the Far Realm is that it's not chaos; it's merely an order antithetical to our own concepts thereof. Non-Euclidean geometries are still geometries, that sort of thing.

[Segev]

The Far Realms are Apple programs trying to run on your Android device, and being aggressive about trying to physically re-wire the hardware to suit them.

[Psyren]

The thing about the Far Realm is that it's not chaos; it's merely an order antithetical to our own concepts thereof. Non-Euclidean geometries are still geometries, that sort of thing.

Yeah, that's probably a better way of putting it. Alignment = μ, that sort of thing.

[illyahr]

It took me a good long while to figure out what each of the alignments meant, and I'm still working on how to express them properly but I'll give it a try:

Absolute Good is about respecting and supporting the well-being of others. Everything is done for the good of the group to make everyone's lives better. Life is to be preserved at all cost for no one has the right to take the life of another.

Absolute Evil is wholly about the self. Everything is done to benefit the self at the expense of everything else. No value is placed on anything except how it benefits the self. Lives and resources are to be used up and tossed aside if it would benefit the self.

Absolute Law is about structure and order, planning and forsight. Everything has a purpose and performs that purpose. Every action has a set procedure and that procedure is never deviated from. (This is actually the purpose of the Qunari philosophy in the Dragon Age games.)

Absolute Chaos is about individuality and freedom, sporadic and spontaneous. Nothing is connected, for connection is structure. Every action is done at the moment of conception and consequence is a byproduct to be dealt with when it occurs. Nothing is good or evil for that implies a structure of moral guidelines that does not exist.

Those are my beliefs on the matter.

[Anlashok]

Part of the problem I think is that aspects of law and chaos don't always line up with their alignment.

It's rare to see a Good or Evil character do inexplicable acts of evil... but we have seen Devils and Inevitables lie and cheat and for the former even wanton acts of destruction. Chaos doesn't get mucked up as much, but even then you often see a lot of CG entities behaving in NG fashions.

I think in part because some people are still stuck, at least subconsciously, in the Law is More Good and Chaos is More Evil mentality.

[Drackstin]

Can't say I see that... in fact the Hells tend to be more interested in stopping Chaos than they are Good. To the point where...


I think there's an order buried in some book (maybe pathfinder) that's essentially an alliance between asmodeus' hellknights and clerics of some big name LG god that work together to crush demons.

this was when Asmodeus and Calistria, and about 20 other gods came together to seal Rovagug a CE god that they couldn't kill. many gods died that day. and they were of all alignments. so this story is mute.

[Anlashok]

this was when Asmodeus and Calistria, and about 20 other gods came together to seal Rovagug a CE god that they couldn't kill. many gods died that day. and they were of all alignments. so this story is mute.

Nope, just looked it up and it has nothing to do pathfinder tharizdun. I was thinking of the Order of the Godclaw

[nedz]

It took me a good long while to figure out what each of the alignments meant, and I'm still working on how to express them properly but I'll give it a try:

Absolute Good is about respecting and supporting the well-being of others. Everything is done for the good of the group to make everyone's lives better. Life is to be preserved at all cost for no one has the right to take the life of another.

Absolute Evil is wholly about the self. Everything is done to benefit the self at the expense of everything else. No value is placed on anything except how it benefits the self. Lives and resources are to be used up and tossed aside if it would benefit the self.

Absolute Law is about structure and order, planning and forsight. Everything has a purpose and performs that purpose. Every action has a set procedure and that procedure is never deviated from. (This is actually the purpose of the Qunari philosophy in the Dragon Age games.)

Absolute Chaos is about individuality and freedom, sporadic and spontaneous. Nothing is connected, for connection is structure. Every action is done at the moment of conception and consequence is a byproduct to be dealt with when it occurs. Nothing is good or evil for that implies a structure of moral guidelines that does not exist.

Those are my beliefs on the matter.

There are multiple interpretations of all of these, which is fine IMHO. There are also graduated shades of each alignment. A more complex character may have shades of opposing alignments in their make up.

[SaintRidley]

The thing about the Far Realm is that it's not chaos; it's merely an order antithetical to our own concepts thereof. Non-Euclidean geometries are still geometries, that sort of thing.

I've always preferred the Far Realm as going beyond that. It's outside the very concept of geometry - non-Euclidean geometries aren't even what it has, simply because geometry itself is something without meaning there. Hells, meaning is something without meaning there.

I like the Far Realm as Outside, Beyond. Any attempts to make sense of it, whether it be in terms of Euclidean geometry or even understanding it as non-Euclidean, is missing the point. There is no sense to be made, no order to derive, because it is the fundamental absence of anything resembling order.

In being a truer chaos than chaos, which itself can only be understood in relation to order and is thus an ordered thing, it is unrecognizable in any framework we try to put it in. Even in all of Limbo, there are still rules. There is still an order within the chaos in the cosmos of the Great Wheel, even if it is as primal as "oppose order." In the Far Realm, there is none of that. Order and Chaos are meaningless, because everything is meaningless, not even the loosest structure in anything.

As I see it, the Far Realm was the entirety of everything once upon a time. The ultimate nihilism where there was nothing, and nothing was everything, and everything was nothing. And then, something changed. Something emerged from this absence of presence, or became present in this absence, and the first notions of order were born with it. The cosmos formed within, pushing back the Outside to create an Inside, a Great Wheel of Insides.

And even as the Outside and the Inside began to differentiate, parts of the Inside yearned for what was before. Chaos, an imperfect approximation of Outside, was birthed in an attempt to collapse the Great Wheel, to return the Inside to the Outside, unaware they could only glimpse and imagine what true chaos is, what a true absence of order brings. They think it pure freedom, but the truth is that they will return to nothing, to everything, if successful.

The Far Realm is a divide by zero error, and yet it exists in spite of itself and its very nature as a thing that cannot. It's the ultimate expression of Chaos as I see it, something even the most Chaotic Obyrith demons (who I feel are even truer to Chaos than the Slaadi) cannot begin to approximate. The lesser Chaos of the Great Wheel is utterly constrained by the essential Order that comes with having a cosmos, and more importantly is blind to the fact that it is, fundamentally subject to Order even if it purges the cosmos of what it deems contrary to freedom.

In order for true chaos, the chaos beyond the reckoning of even the great Slaad lords, Eladrin nobles, and Obyrith kings, to exist, all has to be extinguished.

That's how I like to go about it, anyway.

[Psyren]

Even the Far Realm has some limits. It has a name, and there is a boundary between It and Not It.

While it's perhaps accurate to say that any classification we come up for it will be wrong (simply because our very ability to classify things is limited to our mortal frame of reference and our need for logical connections between things), there's not much point in throwing out every possible label as being useless either.

[atemu1234]

When it comes down to the far realm, I've always thought of it as antithetical to the everything. Beings from there that go over to the mortal planes aren't just weird, they take bits of the far realm with them because without it their existence would be impossible. We can only see them because our brain is giving us the cliff-notes of what is actually there, because they literally cannot be processed by anything. Stuff like that.

One of the things in my campaigns was that there is no "true" chaos. Everything was created by the gods who basically put them together. Without that spark of law they wouldn't exist. The Far Realm (again, in my campaigns) lacks that spark and yet somehow still happens. Nature itself abhors it, as does divinity.

[Segev]

An interesting converse to the Far Realms beings having to bring bits of their reality with them, and our brains processing them "wrong" and only showing us what we can conceive, is that this is likely true for them of us, as well. When they come to our multiverse, they don't perceive us quite right, either. We have unknowable, alien elements that they find just as disturbing, if they even partially perceive them. When high-level mages and adventurous parties cast their magics to take them to the Far Realms, we bring part of our reality with us, and it hurts and warps theirs as much as what they bring with them does ours.

[Da'Shain]

An interesting converse to the Far Realms beings having to bring bits of their reality with them, and our brains processing them "wrong" and only showing us what we can conceive, is that this is likely true for them of us, as well. When they come to our multiverse, they don't perceive us quite right, either. We have unknowable, alien elements that they find just as disturbing, if they even partially perceive them. When high-level mages and adventurous parties cast their magics to take them to the Far Realms, we bring part of our reality with us, and it hurts and warps theirs as much as what they bring with them does ours.That's actually how I run Far Realms creatures in my current game dealing with it. The Far Realms has existed since before time as the formless chaos, and the universe as we know it arose when the gods essentially congealed into discrete beings by accident, decided they liked this new way of existing, and made an entire multiverse through force of will. Before they were gods, they were some unknowable entities that played by different rules that even they forget, but the mere act of being perceived by what we think of as consciousness alters them.

This holds true even now and explains why Far Realms entities are almost always at the least annoyed by people; the conscious mind pulls them into a semblance of consciousness and physicality as well, and by and large they are not huge fans of being confined (however poorly) to a form and function. Mortals who go to the Far Realms by and large go mad from trying to make sense of it, but this is because the chaos is literally pushing back against their minds in an attempt to stay formless and chaotic. People of sufficient will can survive and even exert limited control over the Far Realm, but the things native to that realm of existence are always, ALWAYS better at it than someone with a mind, so it's incredibly hostile even for them.

All this is a roundabout way of saying that I view the Far Realms as being closely related to Chaos as a multiversal concept, but far beyond it to the point of representing the complete dissolution of consciousness into an unknowable state of existence.

[SaintRidley]

^^ More or less that. I'm a fan of the idea that they aren't even entities when in the Far Realm. It's contact with this reality, and even the slightest bit of Order, which gives them form. And the stuff of their nature rebels violently against that confinement. It's a good thing only a little gets in at a time, since enough would break the whole of what we call reality.

[123456789blaaa]

I don't understand the tendency to associate the Far Realm with Chaos. We already have a place for Chaos in the Great Wheel. Why ruin the glorious symmetry? I think it cheapens the existing Chaos of the Great Wheel if the Far Realm becomes the "true chaos". I prefer the canon where the Far Realm is something completely alien to our reality and that includes Chaos. Chaos doesn't have rules but it does have guidelines. Pure randomness is all the same and thus not Chaotic.

Anyways, other than that, I agree with the above posts. The stuff of the Far Realm that comes into our reality is only even "comprehensible" because our reality processes it (and they look weird and twisted and sick because that's very hard to do). There was a great post by Afro detailing the levels of filtration:



Are there any (canonical) permanent or semi-permanent gates to the Far Realms? What effects do they have on the area "immediately around" either end of those gates (quotation marks used because 'around' isn't really a thing in the Far Realms except where material taint infects it)?
Yes indeedy. The most famous would be from the Gates of Firestorm Peak - the Vast Gate, an invention of elder elves in a time long since past. Leicester's Gap in the Ethereal Plane is also known to lead to the Far Realm. In the reality of the Great Wheel, prolonged Far Realm exposure creates a region known as a cerebrotic blot, which infects the border of the Region of Dreams and begins to taint and warp lesser life in the area. Powerful and extensive blots warp higher forms of life as well, and entities of the Far Realm may leak through. Laws of physics may "wobble" a bit in these areas.

On the Far Realm side, a gate to the Great Wheel is like a light in the deep darkness; tiny and pinpoint, but it attracts attention. The nature of any possible "inverse taint" caused by the Great Wheel is impossible to nail down, since it would be diffused across the infinite layers of the Far Realm.

I'm going to delve into speculation here, though; the Far Realm is by nature impossible to chart or map. "Regions" can be discussed, though, insofar as their "nearness" to a fixed portal or planar entry point. These are not stable, but rather exist contingent on a brush with the Great Wheel.

So, first you have Proxima, the margin of the Far Realm closest to a continuous planar link. The Vast Gate counts as such insofar as the Far Realm is disconnected from conventional time and so this portal is effectively a continuous link. This is the region most commonly described, the realm of the Amoebic Sea and the horrors discharged into known reality. That's right; everything commonly experienced, all the squamous tentacles and disorienting soup of insanity, that's the most hospitable the Far Realm ever gets. Being located near a continuous link, Proxima is "filtered" by the incursion of reality to appear comprehensible to mortal senses. Note that in this case, when I say "comprehensible" I mean "you look and see things," not "it makes any degree of sense."

Approxima is the margin that forms around any instantaneous or terminal incursion; smaller and less stable than Proxima, this region is most notable for the repulsing current in antireality that slowly drags intruders back out through the pinhole puncture they caused. Ostensibly, this bungee cord effect should make Approxima safer, but if you believe that then you've never been dragged backward through a pinhole.

Next up is Mesia, the region where reality's incursion begins to fail. Xaxox is located in Mesia, constantly refreshed by Daruth Winterwood's maddened work. Mesia is where the supposed "facts" of the Far Realm themselves begin to slip away. This margin fills with those entities that combine curiosity with caution, presences that are far removed from the penetration point itself but are near to it in thought. Mesia is severely taxing on the mind and body; reality wanes severely here and very little can be done to protect from that.

Distalia is the farthest of what can even semi-seriously be called the "safe" regions, and can run perilously thin at times. This margin often floods with the nothingness beyond, sucking the unwary well outside any possibility of retrieval. Recognition begins to plummet off here as any veneer of reality mutates into warped abstractions and the native entities shrug off their incursion-inflicted forms. Distalia is effectively the glimmer of light in the darkness for the lords of the Far Realm, and those that did not project forward into Mesia to observe an incursion will likely impose their presence here, should they be at all interested.

Finally, Ultimon is a... not so much a region as a borderline. Ultimon represents the terminus of reality's influence and the effective event horizon of the Far Realm. To enter Ultimon is to give up any reasonable hope of escaping the strange plane, and marks you for certain doom. The mind cannot interpret the nature of Ultimon.

By the way, anyone even a little interested in DnD fluff should go check out the current Afro Planar Questions Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372289-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-5!&p=18126391#post18126391) (hm, is the plug still shameless if I'm doing it for someone else's work?).

[Vhaidara]

The Far Realms are Apple programs trying to run on your Android device, and being aggressive about trying to physically re-wire the hardware to suit them.

Can I sig this?

[123456789blaaa]

As an aside, I would consider Lovecraft a terrible inspiration for Far Realm material. That even includes aesthetics. Now don't get me wrong,I love lovecraft and injecting inspiration from his material into the game. I just think it fits better with various Great Wheel things like the Obyriths. Heck, the actual Great Old Ones and such probably work a lot better as Chaotic natives of the Material Plane.

I would say things like Torque energy from the Bas-Lag series and The Sick Land web serial (http://thesickland.blogspot.ca/2013_03_01_archive.html)work much better as Far Realm inspiration.

[Segev]

Can I sig this?

Feel free!

[Segev]

As an aside, I would consider Lovecraft a terrible inspiration for Far Realm material. That even includes aesthetics. Now don't get me wrong,I love lovecraft and injecting inspiration from his material into the game. I just think it fits better with various Great Wheel things like the Obyriths. Heck, the actual Great Old Ones and such probably work a lot better as Chaotic natives of the Material Plane. Not all of Lovecraft's things were chaotic. In fact, most of his eldritch horrors were rather orderly; it was just an alien order that was madness-inducing to mortal humans. A lot of it, you're right, works quite well as Obyrith, Pandemonic, Acheronic, and even Arcadic or Mechanic inspiration. Anywhere you need something alien but real, things like Unknown Caddath, R'yeleh, and the like can all fit.

His eldritch, unknowable horrors, like Azathoth and the mad flautists which sing him to eternal sleep, the Key and the Gate, the King in Yellow, the Black Goat of the Woods...those are good Far Realms creatures. They obey rules of their own, they do not fit in reality (in the sense of being the wrong shape at least as much as in the sense of being too big), and they're not understandable.


I would say things like Torque energy from the Bas-Lag series and The Sick Land web serial (http://thesickland.blogspot.ca/2013_03_01_archive.html)work much better as Far Realm inspiration.

I'm not familiar with that one; will have to look at it.

Meanwhile, you might like Worm (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/). It is...defnitely R-rated, though. For content more than anything else.

[Milo v3]

Meanwhile, you might like Worm (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/). It is...defnitely R-rated, though. For content more than anything else.

Really, I'd say MA at most. I mean, it's adult in maturity not in content.

[Nessa Ellenesse]

I think a lot of this is player/dm driven and varies from campaign to campaign.


Though here is what I get from the source books. Evil makes a big enough of a pest of it's self that lawful good and chaotic good are forced by necessity to work together. They might not like it. They probally snipe at eachother verbally but survival is a very strong motivator.


It can also be diety driven Moradin and Correlen for example set the tone for the uneasy alliance between their people a while there is a blood fued between elves and drow and elves and orcs.

Hextor and Heronious both lawful one evil the other good and they hate eachother.

Though there are outlyers Pholtus for example given the choice between attacking evil and attacking chaos will likely attack chaos.

[Segev]

One thing that has always bugged me in the alignment-based critter area is that, typically, Good-aligned creatures are stronger than their Evil-aligned counterparts, and Lawful-aligned creatures are stronger than their Chaotic-aligned counterparts.

Devils are, where there's a corollary, stronger than demons. Archons are stronger than Eladrin and Devils (again, where there are corollaries; where not, it's just a general trend that they have better "high-ups"). Metallic dragons are stronger than Chromatic, and Gold stronger than Silver. Reds being Chaotic and the strongest Chromatic Dragons are an outlier.

This, despite the fact that good/evil/law/chaos are supposedly balanced such that none can truly overwhelm the other or even gain a significant long-term advantage to exploit. It is, when anybody bothers explaining it, justified as, "well, the hordes of chaos are numberless, and there are more evil than good things." But that seems a cop-out, and makes the whole "trade your soul for power" thing a sucker's game.

Especially when you add in that the nature of good is to cooperate, and the nature of law is to collaborate and come to mutually-workable arrangements. The increased trust and unity is a force multiplier which should rocket their high-end masters to even greater heights of prowess over the chaotic and evil types who must always watch for backstabbing and waste energy keeping their own minions in line.

To me, the lure of chaotic alignment should include more individual power than being a part of the lawful side of things. You are unbounded by the demands of superiors (except those you willingly follow out of shared interests), and the power you do acquire is yours rather than something you owe to the group by pre-arranged distribution. You risk not getting as much because you don't do as well, but what you get is yours! So the Chaotic side should have a lot more individually powerful beings who are stronger than the strongest of the Lawful ones, but should also have a lot more of their lower-end number be small and weak due to not having the shared power distributed by the obligations of the mighty to their subordinates.

If Chaos is more numerous, it is only because its unbounded behavior leads to attracting (or, ahem, creating) more followers, but it churns through the lower ranks quickly. Chaos has more luminaries than law, and each is more potent, but it might have a dearth of lower-end minions, and those minions are frail and fragile unless and until the cult of personality around one of the luminaries leads them to finding and acquiring their own power. The lure of Law, to the weak, is protection and shared might; the lure of Chaos, to the weak, is freedom and power if one but has the ability to grasp it. Power, for the Lawful, comes with obligation; not so for the Chaotic. The former is burdened down by his power and thus cannot have as much as the latter, who finds only greater freedom in having more he can do.

The lure of evil should be similar. Evil is about the self over all else. If you have the self-control, ruthlessness, and drive, you can take whatever you want and hold onto it as long as you've the strength to do so. Again, individual promises of power should be lavish compared to the highest of the good. This is at the expense of others, but it makes YOU stronger. The good, again, share their gifts with those in need. The good become stronger, but they are fettered by what they won't do due to morality. Evil tells you to screw morality and do whatever you need to to get whatever you want. They make others pay the sacrifices for their power, and thus can afford more of them.

Again, perhaps, the ranks of the lower eschelons of evil should be sparser, while more powerful entities (who use up their lessers) are more numerous as well as, counterpart-for-counterpart, generally stronger than the good. It's high-risk, high-reward, but now it's also PvP. And it has a never-ending supply of the ambitious and foolish who think they have what it takes, or who just enjoy the petty cruelties their master permits in return for their service.

Good and Law, despite being weaker at the top end, would still have the combined might of a cooperative and coordinated force. The force multipliers and the fact that two or more Big Goods might work together more easily than two or more Big Bads (and certainly multiple Big Laws would work together in more harmony and greater numbers than Big Chaoses) mean that the balance is maintained. When Chaos wins an isolated victory, it has no support from its own, and the forces of LAw gather to drive it back. When Evil triumphs due to its ruthlessness, it must spend so much time watching its back (or is torn down by its fellows so quickly) that Good will recover.

Good can take and hold territory well, but the greater numbers of high-end evils who each take multiple Big Goods to confront means they must choose their defenses carefully, and avoid over-extending. Same goes for Law and Chaos.

[Brookshw]

Though here is what I get from the source books. Evil makes a big enough of a pest of it's self that lawful good and chaotic good are forced by necessity to work together. They might not like it. They probally snipe at eachother verbally but survival is a very strong motivator.


Depending where you land edition wise good definitely pisses off good. Archons and Eladrin's quibble like an old married couple and the guardinals act as the peace maker / marriage counselor. Heck, Eladrins occasionally get into battles with the Asura, another CG extraplanar race. Granted they don't get into the thick of it the way evil does, but its not quite the match made in heaven you'd expect.

[Eldan]

One thing that has always bugged me in the alignment-based critter area is that, typically, Good-aligned creatures are stronger than their Evil-aligned counterparts, and Lawful-aligned creatures are stronger than their Chaotic-aligned counterparts.



Again, what are you basing that on? As published, the strongest Eladrin is stronger than the strongest Archon.

Let's jsut make a CR list. Yes, I know CR is crap, but it's what we have. Using Wizards' monster index.

Archons: 13 examples. CR 2-16, average 9.6
Eladrin: 7 examples, CR 2-18. However, there is a double nomination of the Firre. Average 10.5.
Devils: 26 examples, CR 1-20. Not calculating average by hand for that many, but there's a lot of 4-11 there.
Demon: 36 examples, CR 2-20. Again, no average.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that's not all devils and demons. There's some above CR 20 ones, I'm sure.

So, if anything, chaos is stronger than law and evil is stronger than good.

[Brookshw]

Again, what are you basing that on? As published, the strongest Eladrin is stronger than the strongest Archon.

Let's jsut make a CR list. Yes, I know CR is crap, but it's what we have. Using Wizards' monster index.

Archons: 13 examples. CR 2-16, average 9.6
Eladrin: 7 examples, CR 2-18. However, there is a double nomination of the Firre. Average 10.5.
Devils: 26 examples, CR 1-20. Not calculating average by hand for that many, but there's a lot of 4-11 there.
Demon: 36 examples, CR 2-20. Again, no average.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that's not all devils and demons. There's some above CR 20 ones, I'm sure.

So, if anything, chaos is stronger than law and evil is stronger than good.

Huh? Strength doesn't have anything to do really with a clash of personalities among good exemplars. It doesn't matter who's stronger. Are you asking for Canon citations of them butting heads?

[Psyren]

So, if anything, chaos is stronger than law and evil is stronger than good.

If you think about it, it kind of has to be. Law is organized and Good plays much more nicely together (no fear of betrayal.) Chaos and Evil have to be individually stronger because otherwise they would be stomped in short order. In addition, Chaos pretty handily wins the numbers game, which again they have to do since they're nearly as likely to turn on each other as the enemy.

[Eldan]

Huh? Strength doesn't have anything to do really with a clash of personalities among good exemplars. It doesn't matter who's stronger. Are you asking for Canon citations of them butting heads?

I got the wrong quote. Wanted to quote Segev's " One thing that has always bugged me in the alignment-based critter area is that, typically, Good-aligned creatures are stronger than their Evil-aligned counterparts, and Lawful-aligned creatures are stronger than their Chaotic-aligned counterparts."

Changed it now.

[Brookshw]

I got the wrong quote. Wanted to quote Segev's " One thing that has always bugged me in the alignment-based critter area is that, typically, Good-aligned creatures are stronger than their Evil-aligned counterparts, and Lawful-aligned creatures are stronger than their Chaotic-aligned counterparts."

Changed it now.

Ah, that makes much more sense. And here I was gearing up to pull quotes from warriors of heaven.

[afroakuma]

Demon: 36 examples, CR 2-20. Again, no average.

Of the non-unique tanar'ri, excluding juvenile nabassu and taking the average maurezhi, there are 42 that I found in total (there are almost certainly more, but I didn't have time), with CR ranging from 1-20, the average strength of which was 10.048

For the record, baatezu turned up 29 unique types (averaging the abishai and counting them as one) with CR 1-20, average strength 9.552

[Segev]

I'll have to re-examine the Eladrins and Archons, then. I base this largely on MM1 in 1e, 2e, and 3e, and such things as the fact that Type VI demons (Balors) are generally weaker than Pit Fiends, Quasits are generally weaker than imps, ernyis < succubi, Red Dragons < Gold Dragons, White Dragons < Brass Dragons (or whichever the weakest metallic is; operating from rough memory here), Grey Slaadi < Secundi Modrons, Tiamat < Bahamut, etc.

[Sir Garanok]

I believe good and evil are more clear-cut concepts.
Like killing someone for fun is an evil act.

Law and Chaos is about following rules or not.

But the rules you follow or don't follow are based on your point of view.

Let's say a rogue who steals/assasinates and does all kind of rogue stuff but is truly devoted and lawful to his guild.

Or a knight figthing a king because he brought corruption and unjustice.He still is the rightfull ruler of the kingdom.

[georgie_leech]

Really, I'd say MA at most. I mean, it's adult in maturity not in content.

I dunno, it does get pretty graphic in some of the descriptions of physical violence, especially whenever Bonesaw (or the rest of the Slaughterhouse Nine, for that matter) shows up. Rating is debateable, yeah, but note that those with body horror issues should tread carefully.

[123456789blaaa]

Bleh, was delayed in responding due to RL:


Not all of Lovecraft's things were chaotic. In fact, most of his eldritch horrors were rather orderly; it was just an alien order that was madness-inducing to mortal humans. A lot of it, you're right, works quite well as Obyrith, Pandemonic, Acheronic, and even Arcadic or Mechanic inspiration. Anywhere you need something alien but real, things like Unknown Caddath, R'yeleh, and the like can all fit.

His eldritch, unknowable horrors, like Azathoth and the mad flautists which sing him to eternal sleep, the Key and the Gate, the King in Yellow, the Black Goat of the Woods...those are good Far Realms creatures. They obey rules of their own, they do not fit in reality (in the sense of being the wrong shape at least as much as in the sense of being too big), and they're not understandable.

Oh yeah, totally. I was mostly talking about a lot of the iconics (the nuclear chaos, the crawling chaos, cuthulu is priest of the Great Old Ones so he's almost certainly Chaotic, etc).

As to your second paragraph, I disagree. This is exactly what I was talking about in the post you're responding too. Lovecrafts entities are a part of the natural order. They're just a super-advanced, non-anthropomorphized part. Azathoth for example, is the creator and center of the universe. Our universe. The reason they're so sanity-blasting is much more a result of Lovecrafts thematics than any intrinsic property. His characters realize how small and insignificant they are which jars against their previous view of being important and advanced. It's also the same type of thing as when one of his protagonists finds out he's descended from apes and goes crazy. The jarring of previously thinking he was advanced and amazing drives him crazy when he finds out he comes from such "degenerate" ancestry. It's not because being descended from apes is outside the natural order or something.

This is why I think they don't work well as Far Realm entities. The thing about the Far Realm is that the Great Wheel reality is just as bad to entities from there as vice versa. Entities from the Far Realm, when "translated" into the Great Wheel, are not suited for it. I believe that Lovecrafts creatures are understandable, just not by humans as they currently are. Entities from the Far Realm on the other hand aren't. Predictable maybe, but not understandable. They just come from a "place" too different and the Great Wheel tries its best but isn't perfect at all. And from a more meta level, Azathoth and co are pretty strongly tied to Chaos. And Chaos is a major and integral part of the Great Wheel.

TL;DR: Lovecrafts entities are natural and native (if advanced and alien), entities from the Far Realm are not.


I'm not familiar with that one; will have to look at it.

Meanwhile, you might like Worm (http://parahumans.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/1-1/). It is...defnitely R-rated, though. For content more than anything else.

I warn you that The Sick Land can be somewhat low-quality in its writing at times. It also becomes increasingly clear that the author didn't plan things out in advance and there's no satisfying resolution when it ends. Still, for pure inspiration, its quite good. Lots of vivid description. As for Bas-Lag, the Torque plays a distressingly small role in the books but what little is there nails the Far Realm. The books themselves are good, a bit too "weirdness for weirdness' sake" than I like but it could also serve as good Planescape inspiration in general. It even has devils!

Read Worm before, loved it a lot. I'm currently following the authors next web serial, Pact.

[Eldan]

Oh yeah, totally. I was mostly talking about a lot of the iconics (the nuclear chaos, the crawling chaos, cuthulu is priest of the Great Old Ones so he's almost certainly Chaotic, etc).


I'd argue that this is a different meaning of the world "chaos". Especialyl in the case of the Nuclear Chaos.

[Psyren]

Far Realm, Lovecraft et al. do not fit inside the wheel cosmology at all. We see them as "Chaos" simply because that is the closest analogue our mortal minds, themselves chained to the wheel, can use as a frame of reference, but in reality they are a level of wrong that would infect and alter even Limbo.

[Segev]

The Elder Things - Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, Shug-Niggurath, etc. - are not, to me, part of the natural order. Depending on your Lovecraftian mythos of choice, they might be (and there's at least one anime where they're simply very alien extraterrestrials), or they might be "things from before time" and thus part of some ur-nature, but I'm fond of the idea that they truly are from "outside" and not part of anything really recognizable as our own order. Not before, where they represent a truer thing on which ours is built, but wholly orthogonal to sense and sensibility.

The most natural of them is Yog-Sothoth, who is the Key and the Gate and is literally the border between our uni/multiverse and ... whatever else there is. And even that, being the boundary of things, is not truly a part of things.

Azathoth is not chaos; he is entropy. The two are oft related, but in fact the latter only seems chaotic until its final state of absolute order due to absolute homogeneity. But even that's not quite right; while Azathoth represents that to our mythical sense of anthropomorphizing natural laws, Azathoth is...something else. The Blind Idiot God is the devourer which consumes all if it awakens. It is comprehensible only because destruction is comprehensible, but it is not even destruction as we know it, for it is true annihilation. It is not a void, but we cannot conceive what it is because true nothingness still leaves a void of space in our imaginations.

Nyarlathotep is known for its Masks, which make it appear as various lesser (but still horrifying) beings. Perhaps, though, that is the sign of just how alien it is. We never see more than its finger-puppets, and those are on the edge of our comprehensibility. Reality warps and distorts in his presence, which is probably where the epithet "Crawling Chaos" comes from. Not because it is truly Limbo-style, Great-Wheel-Approved Chaos, but because it is ripping apart the structure of reality in order to fit something with too many dimensions into three or four. Limbo is Chaos - unformed potential which can become anything if a will so shapes it. Chaos in the Great Wheel sense is about freedom and limitlessness. Nyarlathotep is not truly chaotic in that sense; Nyarlathotep is a transgression against reality that brings with it new and alien principles. Distortions which follow their own rules as fingerprints distending the cellophane of Yog Sothoth between us and them.

If any of the Elder Gods is Chaos, it is Shub-Niggurath. The Goat With A Thousand Young is an urge of creation as much as Azathoth is of destruction. And that creative potential is similar to the formless shapability of endless Limbo. Perhaps the Black Goat of the Forest is able to exist within the Multiverse because of this. Or perhaps its own nature is too alien, still, so it does not quite fit, but it can hide in Limbo's expanse or the depths of the Abyss and spawn its dark young and shoggoths, which are weird, but no more than Obyrith-weird.

[SimonMoon6]

For the Law and Chaos issue, the problem is that most people haven't read enough Moorcock (or don't care to change things to include the Moorcockian concepts). Law and Chaos were tossed into D&D from Moorcock's influence, but then once good/evil were added, the relevance of Law/Chaos diminished. After all, everyone wants to be the Good guy fighting Evil (or vice-versa). Nobody wants to be the Law man fighting some chaotic guys.

In Moorcock's work, Law and Chaos both have a place, but either taken to the extreme (as embodied in the gods of Law and Chaos) are terrible. It's a world where good and evil aren't simplistic concepts. Chaos can be freedom and Law can be stifling, but Chaos can be destructive while Law is protective. Following the Cosmic Balance is the only sane approach in such a world.

[Eldan]

It seems in D&D, about half the alignments have very alien, nonhuman entities at the top, while the rest has disappointments.

Alien:
Lawful good: I'm counting the seventh heaven here. You go into the light, you never come back, the end.
Neutral good: we have animal men. Unless the Prisoner of Elysium counts.
Chaotic good: meh. Faeries, basically.
Chaotic neutral: for my tastes, even the Slaad Lords are far too normal.
Chaotic evil: the Obyrith sort of work, but especially the Abyss itself. The Queen of Chaos is just embarassing.
Neutral evil: I'd argue the Baernoloth, while horrifying, are actually quite... human? Not truly alien, really. There's the Goresh Chasm, though, whatever's down there.
Lawful evil: thank god for Asmodeus' alternate form, or we'd have only the Baatorians.
Lawful neutral: Primus. Yawn.

[123456789blaaa]

Blarg, forgot about this thread. Hopefully interest has not permanently died.


I'd argue that this is a different meaning of the world "chaos". Especialyl in the case of the Nuclear Chaos.

I would say that even though he wasn't thinking of DnD Chaos, the meanings are still cognate. Azathoth for example, is "amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles". A constantly changing and seething amorphous being, lulled into sleep by eerie music sounds quite Chaotic to me. In fact, if one were to describe that to me as a DnD monster (in less Lovecrafty language), my first thought would be something native to Limbo. Or take Nyarlathotep. His sole occupation seems to be randomly traveling places and flowing through countless masks and disguises, tricking people for kicks. Seems pretty Chaotic Evil to me.


Far Realm, Lovecraft et al. do not fit inside the wheel cosmology at all. We see them as "Chaos" simply because that is the closest analogue our mortal minds, themselves chained to the wheel, can use as a frame of reference, but in reality they are a level of wrong that would infect and alter even Limbo.

I feel that disparages the potential for Great Wheel weirdness (heck, Dagon in DnD is a obyrith-a type of demon). As I noted in my previous post, the Lovecraftian "gods" (please note the quotation marks) are actually quite conventional in there sphere's of influence. Shub is a god of fertility, Yog is a god of time and gates, Azathoth is a creator deity, etc. The significant part is that they're non-anthromorphic. They're still tied to the conventional world, they're just too "big" for relatively tiny beings like humans to fully comprehend.

Also, there's the bit about Lovecrafts themes that I mentioned earlier. His protagonists breaking down makes sense in the context of his stories and the times/locations they were set in. It's much less so in DnD where you can literally have deities whose consciousness' span the universe.


The Elder Things - Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, Shug-Niggurath, etc. - are not, to me, part of the natural order. Depending on your Lovecraftian mythos of choice, they might be (and there's at least one anime where they're simply very alien extraterrestrials), or they might be "things from before time" and thus part of some ur-nature, but I'm fond of the idea that they truly are from "outside" and not part of anything really recognizable as our own order. Not before, where they represent a truer thing on which ours is built, but wholly orthogonal to sense and sensibility.

The most natural of them is Yog-Sothoth, who is the Key and the Gate and is literally the border between our uni/multiverse and ... whatever else there is. And even that, being the boundary of things, is not truly a part of things.

Azathoth is not chaos; he is entropy. The two are oft related, but in fact the latter only seems chaotic until its final state of absolute order due to absolute homogeneity. But even that's not quite right; while Azathoth represents that to our mythical sense of anthropomorphizing natural laws, Azathoth is...something else. The Blind Idiot God is the devourer which consumes all if it awakens. It is comprehensible only because destruction is comprehensible, but it is not even destruction as we know it, for it is true annihilation. It is not a void, but we cannot conceive what it is because true nothingness still leaves a void of space in our imaginations.

Nyarlathotep is known for its Masks, which make it appear as various lesser (but still horrifying) beings. Perhaps, though, that is the sign of just how alien it is. We never see more than its finger-puppets, and those are on the edge of our comprehensibility. Reality warps and distorts in his presence, which is probably where the epithet "Crawling Chaos" comes from. Not because it is truly Limbo-style, Great-Wheel-Approved Chaos, but because it is ripping apart the structure of reality in order to fit something with too many dimensions into three or four. Limbo is Chaos - unformed potential which can become anything if a will so shapes it. Chaos in the Great Wheel sense is about freedom and limitlessness. Nyarlathotep is not truly chaotic in that sense; Nyarlathotep is a transgression against reality that brings with it new and alien principles. Distortions which follow their own rules as fingerprints distending the cellophane of Yog Sothoth between us and them.

If any of the Elder Gods is Chaos, it is Shub-Niggurath. The Goat With A Thousand Young is an urge of creation as much as Azathoth is of destruction. And that creative potential is similar to the formless shapability of endless Limbo. Perhaps the Black Goat of the Forest is able to exist within the Multiverse because of this. Or perhaps its own nature is too alien, still, so it does not quite fit, but it can hide in Limbo's expanse or the depths of the Abyss and spawn its dark young and shoggoths, which are weird, but no more than Obyrith-weird.

I think we may be coming at this from completely different angles. From my perspective, your summaries of the natures of the Elder Gods just perfectly represented why they are in fact, Great Wheel style Chaos (and how it ties in perfectly with my response to Psyren) Well, aside from a bit of weirdness with Nyarlathotep. He seems pretty free and creative to me what with his masks and such. Where do you get that he's "bringing alien principles"?. It has been a while since I've read my Lovecraft admittedly...

Also, Ygorl is the Slaad Lord of Entropy you know.


It seems in D&D, about half the alignments have very alien, nonhuman entities at the top, while the rest has disappointments.

Alien:
Lawful good: I'm counting the seventh heaven here. You go into the light, you never come back, the end.
Neutral good: we have animal men. Unless the Prisoner of Elysium counts.
Chaotic good: meh. Faeries, basically.
Chaotic neutral: for my tastes, even the Slaad Lords are far too normal.
Chaotic evil: the Obyrith sort of work, but especially the Abyss itself. The Queen of Chaos is just embarassing.
Neutral evil: I'd argue the Baernoloth, while horrifying, are actually quite... human? Not truly alien, really. There's the Goresh Chasm, though, whatever's down there.
Lawful evil: thank god for Asmodeus' alternate form, or we'd have only the Baatorians.
Lawful neutral: Primus. Yawn.

What you don't like Ursula? :smalltongue: Seriously though, the Queen of Chaos has barely any information on her available. What makes her embarrassing?

I wouldn't say that the Obyrith, Baernoloth, or Baatorians are "at the top". Their time has come and gone.

What's wrong with Primus? His human-looking form?

[Marlowe]

For the Law and Chaos issue, the problem is that most people haven't read enough Moorcock (or don't care to change things to include the Moorcockian concepts). Law and Chaos were tossed into D&D from Moorcock's influence, but then once good/evil were added, the relevance of Law/Chaos diminished. After all, everyone wants to be the Good guy fighting Evil (or vice-versa). Nobody wants to be the Law man fighting some chaotic guys.

In Moorcock's work, Law and Chaos both have a place, but either taken to the extreme (as embodied in the gods of Law and Chaos) are terrible. It's a world where good and evil aren't simplistic concepts. Chaos can be freedom and Law can be stifling, but Chaos can be destructive while Law is protective. Following the Cosmic Balance is the only sane approach in such a world.

Reading Moorcock is pretty much its own punishment. Plus, the Chaos Gods in his stories are pretty much unequivocally evil, the Gods of Law never get enough development to tell much about them at all, and as I recall, the Cosmic Balance only gets met by everyone getting killed.

Incidentally, Chaos in D&D draws a lot from Poul Anderson, whose fantasy predated Moorcock by a good decade. This is why Fey are almost always Chaotic, for instance.

[daremetoidareyo]

Law vs Chaos is the most potent disagreement between world views that humans have. The human mind seeks to put its experiences into an orderly arrangement, where reality itself seeks to subvert this. We extrapolate our experience and objectify the world with it, being generally confused when our expectations do not match our material reality.


The best evidence of this comes from science. What is a species? Any group that can and does reproduce? why can mules exist, and then, why can they sometimes go on to reproduce? And what does that make of plants, who are crazy capable of crossbreeding? The categorization is almost meaningless, yet it does provide insight sometimes. The lawful mind sees that as legitimizing the endeavor, where the chaotic mind discounts those bonuses as localized and unimportant in the grand scheme.

The order, the logic of it all, is being super imposed by the human mind. We have decided as to what the definitions and structure ARE, and the parts that misalign are easily attributed to chaos. Why do electrons behave differently in a crystal structure than other structures? Why does legitimate physics break down at the quantum scale, to the point where it seems like the particles themselves refuse to allow one to have complete knowledge of them. Life itself is a weird aberration, a tiny local cluster of processes that, through structural gestalt, defy tenets of thermodynamics...and then succumb to them. The Chaotic see all evidence like this as underpinnings for how the world really works; there can never be a thing like complete knowledge. The lawful believe that there is such a thing as complete knowledge, it just needs to be assembled.

[Sartharina]

Another problem is words and definitions are a lawful construct, and people keep trying to define chaos with words and definitions.

[Psyren]

I feel that disparages the potential for Great Wheel weirdness (heck, Dagon in DnD is a obyrith-a type of demon). As I noted in my previous post, the Lovecraftian "gods" (please note the quotation marks) are actually quite conventional in there sphere's of influence. Shub is a god of fertility, Yog is a god of time and gates, Azathoth is a creator deity, etc. The significant part is that they're non-anthromorphic. They're still tied to the conventional world, they're just too "big" for relatively tiny beings like humans to fully comprehend.

Also, there's the bit about Lovecrafts themes that I mentioned earlier. His protagonists breaking down makes sense in the context of his stories and the times/locations they were set in. It's much less so in DnD where you can literally have deities whose consciousness' span the universe.

I'm talking strictly about a D&D context (as my reference to the Wheel should have made clear.) Dagon in D&D is not part of the Far Realm, he exists within the wheel - in the Abyss to be precise.

[JusticeZero]

When I deal with alignment, *I* tend to make law/chaos important. But it's a bit harder for people to get worked up over a group of people who wants to be able to dress funny and do their own thing instead of writing up contracts than it is to get worked up over, you know, a flaming ruin where a village once was.

[123456789blaaa]

I'm talking strictly about a D&D context (as my reference to the Wheel should have made clear.) Dagon in D&D is not part of the Far Realm, he exists within the wheel - in the Abyss to be precise.

I may be misunderstanding you because I'm not following:smallconfused:.

I know that you were talking in a strictly DnD context and that Dagon is not part of the Far Realm in DnD (I referred to him as being an obyrith demon in the post after all). What I was saying is that I believe that the Elder Gods are not too "wrong" for the Great Wheel.

[JusticeZero]

It's actually construction. You can deconstruct the things that are "evil" and "good" and work out that honestly, they're not THAT different when they're in their own cities.. then you realize that it's more of a team game thing between poles of the alignments. We downplay L vs. C and upplay G vs E because our default Tolkien races are generally Good, with no default support for Evil; in the meanwhile, it runs the gamut of Law and Chaos. If you want to do Law vs Chaos, you are going to have to spend time building up your rules on hobgoblins and kobolds, and tell your elf fanatic who is dreamy-eyed about Legolas that her preferred race is Kill-On-Sight for the entire party and most everyone they work with.

[Brookshw]

Dagon in D&D is not part of the Far Realm, he exists within the wheel - in the Abyss to be precise.

Unless were talking about the other Dagon :smalltongue:

[RogueWizard]

I don't let my players choose their alignments, EVER. What I mean is, they choose a personality, set of goals, and morals and I tell them their alignments. The more rules and structure to their morals and goals, the more lawful they are. The more impulsive and emotional their goals and morals, the more chaotic they are.

I even treat good and evil similarly. Many people consider good to be a self sacrificing hero who can't ignore the needs of others and evil to be bent on destruction and enjoying tormenting others. I broaden those definitions. Evil is simply self-focused. It can be selfishness, greed, envy, or whatever other negative traits you want, but it has to be all about me. Good is whenever characters consider those around them.

This leaves worlds of options available. The man who believes controlling the lives of others is for their benefit would then be good and the man who saves lives and acts the role of the hero for the praise and glory and cares not for others would be evil. This means there are many blurred lines in regards to paladins code of conduct and things like that. I argue that in order for a paladin to meet the code of conduct, they have to believe themselves good, whether they are in reality or not. When people detect alignment I decide to give them personalities of the characters instead of their alignment which they have to then interpret. In fact, for paladins I give MORE emphasis to law and chaos as it is far clearer than good and evil.

Holy and unholy weapons smite those who the wielder would classify as evil. Yes, this means someone who doesn't see themselves as evil but is a dictator could wield a holy weapon and be smitten by a holy weapon.

Both axioms are important, but they are inherently different and must be treated as such. Many times the good and evil is important in deciding what someone wants and law or chaos is important in deciding how they will go about it. Good and evil are too often treated as black and white, and I refuse to follow that mundane philosophy in my campaigns.

[Finwaell]

In my world the conflict between Law and Chaos is the fundamental driving force behind creation and generally speaking also the main overarching conflict of the setting
- funny part is, both sides have their "good" and "bad" guys, so it is just a matter of preference and you can have good lawful person and good chaotic person go after each other throats like there is no tomorrow.

It can be felt in everything if subtly. From the existence of demons (and their super-powerful god-killing prince) who are arguably not good to chaotically good free trading cities, from Lawful Byzantium-like (for luck of other terms) empire (which is kind of neutral really) to both good and bad lawful deities (who are only good and/or bad from a certain point of view).

The point is, that the world tries to stay in balance. If the balance is broken, it has to be brought back by actions of equal weight willingly or unwillingly undertaken by the other side.

Hence - good deities and celestials can wage war among themselves, as can the forces of evil, and forces of good and evil that are both chaotic or lawful can find themselves battling a common foe or serve common interests. Lawful good paladin can willingly and knowingly serve a Lawful Evil church or ruler who consider what they are doing just, while chaotic evil sorcerer may find common terms with a chaotic good deity even though their motivations may differ, their goals may be common.

Then there are also things like honor, sanity, prestige, justice and the forces of life and death, which weigh in heavily more so that death is in principle a matter of law and life is a chaotic force..

Among all these things, seen and unseen, petty squabbles like morality and deciding what is "good" and "bad" from whomever's perspective are usually left to petty mortals (players :P ) to sort out on their own.