Illusory Reality

[Surrealistik]

So...

Silent Image + Spell Mastery + Illusory Reality = At-will obstacles/walls/cubes of adamantine or force, and free artifacts and expensive material components?

[Yorrin]

So...

Silent Image + Spell Mastery + Illusory Reality = At-will obstacles/walls/cubes of adamantine or force, and free artifacts and expensive material components?


Except for the "artifacts" part, sine Illusory Reality does specify "nonmagical," yes it looks like this works.

[Hytheter]

Sorry, what's illusory reality, exactly?

[Yorrin]

Sorry, what's illusory reality, exactly?

Illusionist lvl 14 ability.

[Surrealistik]

Ah, missed nonmagical, that does rein it in quite a bit; still very strong, probably the most powerful L14 wizard feature overall with the possible exception of the Transmuter feature (even acknowledging stuff like the Evocation L14 maximizing cantrip damage unconditionally).

[Yorrin]

Ah, missed nonmagical, that does rein it in quite a bit; still very strong, probably the most powerful L14 wizard feature overall with the possible exception of the Transmuter feature (even acknowledging stuff like the Evocation L14 maximizing cantrip damage unconditionally).

Yeah, I think Illusionist is the only school whose class features are all really solid- the others all have a flop at some point.

[Surrealistik]

I can see this being leveraged offensively too; creating a 15x15x15 foot solid block of osmium or something over an opponent's head; it's not directly harming them; gravity and physics are doing that.

[Rummy]

They only last one minute. Except for the expensive material components bit, don't really see the use. Adamantine walls? Isn't wall of stone just as good and permanent?

[Surrealistik]

One minute is basically the duration of a combat though, and expensive material components are consumed at the time of casting.

Beyond that, adamantine is definitely stronger than stone, and you're throwing it up at-will, whereas WoS requires a 5th level slot!

[Rummy]

One minute is basically the duration of a combat though, and expensive material components are consumed at the time of casting.

Beyond that, adamantine is definitely stronger than stone, and you're throwing it up at-will, whereas WoS requires a 5th level slot!

It rocks. I just think max damage is more useful. And I would definitely not allow the gravity cheese.

[Yuki Akuma]

They only last one minute. Except for the expensive material components bit, don't really see the use. Adamantine walls? Isn't wall of stone just as good and permanent?

Wall of Stone isn't permanent.

[Rummy]

Wall of Stone isn't permanent.

It is if you concentrate for ten minutes.

[Surrealistik]

It rocks. I just think max damage is more useful. And I would definitely not allow the gravity cheese.

Having any material in any shape you choose within a 15 foot cube at-will strikes me as being far more useful than the Evocation cap.

Then of course you can create 3375 cubic feet of plutonium and make it real after you've teleported well away, lol (or antimatter, whatever).


Wall of Stone also requires that it be fused with and solidly supported by existing stone.

[pwykersotz]

Having any material in any shape you choose within a 15 foot cube at-will strikes me as being far more useful than the Evocation cap.

Then of course you can create 3375 cubic feet of plutonium and make it real after you've teleported well away, lol (or antimatter, whatever).


Wall of Stone also requires that it be fused with and solidly supported by existing stone.

Probably best to stick to D&D materials. Unless you want your DM to sick the Time Lords (either Doctor Who or Immortals handbook, I'm not picky) on you. :smalltongue:

"I make a cube of Antimatter!"
"The planet is destroyed, reflex save."
"25!"
"An etheric beam locator snaps onto your location. The TARDIS has picked you up. We'll need a new game system."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJMVxZ8pGzA

[Surrealistik]

Probably best to stick to D&D materials. Unless you want your DM to sick the Time Lords (either Doctor Who or Immortals handbook, I'm not picky) on you. :smalltongue:

"I make a cube of Antimatter!"
"The planet is destroyed, reflex save."
"25!"
"An etheric beam locator snaps onto your location. The TARDIS has picked you up. We'll need a new game system."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJMVxZ8pGzA

What Reflex save? You're not even on the same plane at the time this happens. :smalltongue:

Point taken though, I would probably not allow a wizard to use this to make anti-osmium, plutonium and the like with this unless he at least did the requisite research and Intelligence checks; the thing that makes this truly so dangerous is that the wizard could conceivably figure this stuff out between 20 Int and divination spells.

Even so with just sticking to materials explicitly mentioned in DnD content, a giant spike/cone of gold (highest density material of those mentioned I believe) with an adamantine tip materializing above an enemy would certainly still be all kinds of lethal.

[pwykersotz]

What Reflex save? You're not even on the same plane at the time this happens. :smalltongue:

Point taken though, I would probably not allow a wizard to use this to make anti-osmium, plutonium and the like with this unless he at least did the requisite research and Intelligence checks; the thing that makes this truly so dangerous is that the wizard could conceivably figure this stuff out between 20 Int and divination spells.

Even so with just sticking to materials explicitly mentioned in DnD content, a giant spike/cone of gold (highest density material of those mentioned I believe) with an adamantine tip materializing above an enemy would certainly still be all kinds of lethal.

Suddenly I'm flashing back to Megaman. The spikes...the horror...

http://meatfighter.com/mario/mega_man.jpg

[archaeo]

Even so with just sticking to materials explicitly mentioned in DnD content, a giant spike/cone of gold (highest density material of those mentioned I believe) with an adamantine tip materializing above an enemy would certainly still be all kinds of lethal.

Uh,


The object can’t deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone.

Note that it also only remains real for 1 minute, which is a shorter time frame than practically every spell that consumes magical components. And that's ignoring the fact that it says "one inanimate, nonmagical object." Given that magical components are presumably magical objects, that might be a problem.

[Kornaki]

Uh,



Note that it also only remains real for 1 minute, which is a shorter time frame than practically every spell that consumes magical components. And that's ignoring the fact that it says "one inanimate, nonmagical object." Given that magical components are presumably magical objects, that might be a problem.

I disagree with every part of your post. You don't need to be in possession of the component for the duration of the spell, you just need it at the time of casting. And when spell components are things like a diamond, I'm pretty sure they aren't magical.

[archaeo]

I disagree with every part of your post.

:smallfrown:


You don't need to be in possession of the component for the duration of the spell, you just need it at the time of casting.

I think the unstated assumption here is that the material component is used during the casting of the spell, and therefore needs to be present for the entirety of the casting time. But you're correct that, by RAW, you only need the component to begin casting. It also suggests you need a free hand to use the materials, which seems to back up my assertion that you're using the component for the duration of the spell and not just right at the beginning, but hey. A DM decision for now, though I know how I'd rule.


And when spell components are things like a diamond, I'm pretty sure they aren't magical.

Given that diamonds are only used in spellcasting in the PHB, why shouldn't they be magical?

[Surrealistik]

The spike of gold/adamantine doesn't directly harm a creature; gravity is doing the work here. It's not unlike a creature being blown into a wall of spikes, or a boulder being subsequently propelled into said creature by immense force; the boulder or spikes are indirectly causing harm in both cases.

Further any diamonds (or other material components) suffice; material components are not magical just because they're consumed by a spell.

Lastly material components are consumed at the time of casting unless otherwise stated so far as I can see. What is explicitly certain however is that you only need the component before you can cast the spell. Beyond that, even if we assume that you need the component for the whole duration of the spell's casting for it to resolve successfully, there are plenty of spells with otherwise expensive components that you can cast; you're also able to refresh the duration of its reality for the duration of the underlying illusion spell so long as you can expend bonus actions to do so.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Something something Trace On...

Anyways a DM that doesn't like it on material components is welcome to say that since you need material components worth X gp that since shadow matter is only there for a minute it has zero actual market value and thus cannot meet the formula requirements.

We can argue the 'logic' of that various ways for say ruby dust (although that's not one object) but that approach legitimizes the approach of 'the magic knows its NOT the real thing' too so its a meaningless path once you abandon pure legalism like that. And this is all beyond the scope of Illusory Reality so its basically all a "sure if the DM is cool with that" kinda thing.

Very useful trick though, gonna have to remember this one.

[archaeo]

The spike of gold/adamantine doesn't directly harm a creature; gravity is doing the work here. It's not unlike a creature being blown into a wall of spikes, or a boulder being subsequently propelled into said creature by immense force; the boulder or spikes are indirectly causing harm in both cases.

This is a bit like grabbing someone's arm and smacking them with their own hand, asking "Why are you hitting yourself?" The feature says "the object can't deal damage," and I fail to see how the spike falling out of the sky isn't the thing dealing damage here.


Further any diamonds (or other material components) suffice; material components are not magical just because they're consumed by a spell.

According to whom? As long as we're reading things into the spaces left behind by RAW, I don't see this as unreasonable in the least.


Lastly material components are consumed at the time of casting unless otherwise stated so far as I can see. What is explicitly certain however is that you only need the component before you can cast the spell. Beyond that, even if we assume that you need the component for the whole duration of the spell's casting for it to resolve successfully, there are plenty of spells with otherwise expensive components that you can cast; you're also able to refresh the duration of its reality for the duration of the underlying illusion spell so long as you can expend bonus actions to do so.

Can you refresh the duration? Illusory Reality just gives you a single minute of realness and never says anything about refreshing. There would almost certainly be a gap in there, and that gap would cause the spell to fizzle, as far as I'm concerned.

Mearls & Co. have been pretty up front about the fact that they didn't want to write a tangle of rules to prevent every possible exploit. Maybe they should've gone farther, but in the meantime, it seems abundantly obvious what rulings result in a balanced level 14 feature. If you want it to work like this at your table, feel free.

[Surrealistik]

This is a bit like grabbing someone's arm and smacking them with their own hand, asking "Why are you hitting yourself?" The feature says "the object can't deal damage," and I fail to see how the spike falling out of the sky isn't the thing dealing damage here.

The feature says it can't directly deal damage, and it doesn't directly deal damage. Is the ground directly and actively dealing damage to you when you fall onto it from a great height? What's dealing the damage is force and its source, the physical phenomena of gravity, and the physics underpinning its transfer; the existence of the ground permits that force transfer but is not directly responsible for it, or the cause of it.


According to whom? As long as we're reading things into the spaces left behind by RAW, I don't see this as unreasonable in the least.

So are the swords you can purchase in the items section magical because there wasn't any passage that explicitly said they aren't?

This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me at all. You can use mundane diamonds for material components; the act of being used as a material component doesn't suddenly make them magical and even if it did, they wouldn't be magical _until_ they're used as components, so you can still make them real, and you can still utilize them as components, unless you're arguing that the mere intent to use them as material components makes them magical in which case I'm even more perplexed.


Can you refresh the duration? Illusory Reality just gives you a single minute of realness and never says anything about refreshing. There would almost certainly be a gap in there, and that gap would cause the spell to fizzle, as far as I'm concerned.

It says you can make it real for 1 minute as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing... so what's to prevent you from using a bonus action intermittently to refresh and therefore effectively extend the duration of its realness?


Mearls & Co. have been pretty up front about the fact that they didn't want to write a tangle of rules to prevent every possible exploit. Maybe they should've gone farther, but in the meantime, it seems abundantly obvious what rulings result in a balanced level 14 feature. If you want it to work like this at your table, feel free.

Even if I assume you're right about everything, instant 15x15x15 foot adamantine bunkers/walls at-will is still extremely powerful, even for a level 14 feature and is permitted, to say nothing about exotic materials like antimatter which a wizard could certainly learn about.

Further, even if we assume that everything I purport is true (except the ability to create antimatter, plutonium etc, which would easily make this the single most destructively powerful thing in the game by far), the L14 Transmutation feature is still competitive with it, and everything it can do is explicitly permitted.

[archaeo]

The feature says it can't directly deal damage, and it doesn't directly deal damage. Is the ground directly and actively dealing damage to you when you fall onto it from a great height? What's dealing the damage is force and its source, the physical phenomena of gravity, and the physics underpinning its transfer; the existence of the ground permits that force transfer but is not directly responsible for it, or the cause of it.

The feature actually says "The object can’t deal damage," full stop; the clause that begins with "or" offers more clarification, and doesn't modify the meaning of "can't deal damage" but instead seems to apply more to the idea of, say, using Illusory Reality to make poisons.

If you use the feature to make a spike that then comes crashing down, I fail to see how the spike isn't the thing doing damage.


This line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me at all. You can use mundane diamonds for material components; the act of being used as a material component doesn't suddenly make them magical and even if it did, they wouldn't be magical _until_ they're used as components, so you can still make them real, and you can still utilize them as components, unless you're arguing that the mere intent to use them as material components makes them magical in which case I'm even more perplexed.

I merely make the assumption that, because these objects are being used as magical components, they must have some kind of magical property in and of themselves. Otherwise, why do you need them? I'm not saying that "mundane diamonds" don't work, I'm saying that each and every diamond in the world of D&D is in and of itself magical because, as evidenced by their use as spell components, they are necessary to affect change using certain kinds of magic.


It says you can make it real for 1 minute as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing... so what's to prevent you from using a bonus action intermittently to refresh and therefore effectively extend the duration of its realness?

The feature reads "When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one...object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing." The "this" in that second sentence should mean that "you can choose one...object." It says nothing about making that choice a second time for a given spell, nor does it give any indication that you can keep using your bonus action to keep it going.


Even if I assume you're right about everything, instant 15x15x15 foot adamantine bunkers/walls at-will is still extremely powerful, even for a level 14 feature and is permitted, to say nothing about exotic materials like antimatter which you wizard could certainly learn about.

Antimatter exists in D&D? I'd have a chat about that with my DM, first. And who said anything about at-will? You're burning those spell slots until you get Spell Mastery at level 18.


Further, even if we assume that everything I purport is true, the L14 Transmutation feature is still competitive with it, and everything it can do is explicitly permitted.

I'll cheerfully agree that Master Transmuter is a very powerful feature. It's mostly balanced by the fact that you get one shot with it, and then you need to take a non-restful 8 hours of crafting to do it again, which will presumably be out of reach in most situations.

[Surrealistik]

The feature actually says "The object can’t deal damage," full stop; the clause that begins with "or" offers more clarification, and doesn't modify the meaning of "can't deal damage" but instead seems to apply more to the idea of, say, using Illusory Reality to make poisons.

If you use the feature to make a spike that then comes crashing down, I fail to see how the spike isn't the thing doing damage.

Because it's not doing damage; not directly.

If you were to fall on that spike from a great distance, is it really doing the damage/directly causing harm? If so, are you arguing you can land on top of it after free falling for a mile without taking damage?


I merely make the assumption that, because these objects are being used as magical components, they must have some kind of magical property in and of themselves. Otherwise, why do you need them? I'm not saying that "mundane diamonds" don't work, I'm saying that each and every diamond in the world of D&D is in and of itself magical because, as evidenced by their use as spell components, they are necessary to affect change using certain kinds of magic.


So is anything that is used or could possibly ever be used as a material component inherently magical?

Is all blood for example, inherently magical because it's used as a material component of animate dead? Bone? Exquisite chests? Crystal beads? Bits of fur? Etc...


The feature reads "When you cast an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose one...object that is part of the illusion and make that object real. You can do this on your turn as a bonus action while the spell is ongoing." The "this" in that second sentence should mean that "you can choose one...object." It says nothing about making that choice a second time for a given spell, nor does it give any indication that you can keep using your bonus action to keep it going.


I feel it's pretty clear says that you can do 'this' (i.e. make the one chosen object that's part of the illusion real), on your turn as a bonus action while the spell (the illusion spell that created the image of the chosen object) is ongoing. It then remains real for 1 minute.


Antimatter exists in D&D? I'd have a chat about that with my DM, first. And who said anything about at-will? You're burning those spell slots until you get Spell Mastery at level 18.


Spell Mastery says at-will. Adamantine bunkers/prisons/walls that last all combat created with even level 1 spells are insanely powerful whether or not antimatter is permitted.


I'll cheerfully agree that Master Transmuter is a very powerful feature. It's mostly balanced by the fact that you get one shot with it, and then you need to take a non-restful 8 hours of crafting to do it again, which will presumably be out of reach in most situations.

And yet it's powerful and versatile enough to compete with at-will adamantine bunkers. The Master Transmuter effect is also heads and shoulders more powerful than the majority of the other L14 specialist features, so it's not really balanced despite its limitations.

And it's not hard to have 8 hours to yourself as a L14 wizard, no matter where you are. Leomund's Tiny Hut and Mordenkainen's Mansion both come to mind.

[archaeo]

Because it's not doing damage; not directly.

If you were to fall on that spike from a great distance, is it really doing the damage/directly causing harm? If so, are you arguing you can land on top of it after free falling for a mile without taking damage?

Yes. If you use Illusory Reality to create a spike exactly where a falling creature is going to land, the spike does no damage; the creature passes through the spike and hits the ground, and then it takes falling damage. An object created by Illusory Reality "can’t deal damage," and the damage from falling is dealt by the ground existing where it does. Just like an object that falls on you is what would "deal damage," and not whatever confluence of non-object-related physics you can cobble together.


So is anything that is used or could possibly ever be used as a material component inherently magical?

Is all blood for example, inherently magical because it's used as a material component of animate dead? Bone? Exquisite chests? Crystal beads? Bits of fur? Etc...

I feel okay with ruling that whatever magical properties blood or bone has that enables it to be used as a spellcasting component means that the magic requires "real" blood, and not whatever you can make "real" for a minute of Illusory Reality.


I feel it's pretty clear says that you can do 'this' (i.e. make the one chosen object that's part of the illusion real), on your turn as a bonus action while the spell (the illusion spell that created the image of the chosen object) is ongoing. It then remains real for 1 minute.

Whereas I see it as "pretty clear" that the feature intends you to use it once, either at the start of the spell ("when you cast") or during the spell's duration as a bonus action. Then you get a minute of reality.


Spell Mastery says at-will. Adamantine bunkers that last all combat as level 1 spells are insanely powerful whether or not antimatter is permitted.

Yep. Quite powerful. You've used your Spell Mastery feature to be able to do something that only works as long as a creature can't get around a 15x15x15 barrier before your next turn. I wouldn't call that "insane," personally, though I'll concede that it's a very strong synergy, especially for a clever player like yourself.


And yet it's powerful and versatile enough to compete with at-will adamantine bunkers. The Master Transmuter effect is also heads and shoulders more powerful than the majority of the other L14 specialist features, so it's not really balanced despite its limitations.

And it's not hard to have 8 hours to yourself as a L14 wizard, no matter where you are. Leomund's Tiny Hut and Mordenkainen's Mansion both come to mind.

Master Transmuter is off-topic, but I find it difficult to really be concerned about the balance of an ability that requires an extra 8 hours of preparation just so that you can reproduce effects that any level 14 caster will have access to anyway. Unless you think Restore Youth breaks the game?

[Corinath]

Create a spring loaded catapult trap directly underneath said enemy.

Enemy doesn't take damage until it falls back down to the ground a turn later. Illusion doesn't directly do anything other than launch said enemy.

Problem solved.

Next!

[Kornaki]

I'm out on the spike use. You might as well argue that the sword doesn't do damage, it's the force being applied by your arm that does.

I also think that it would be very reasonable for a DM to rule that you can't make spell components with illusory reality, though I don't think it's that overpowered necessarily... We don't know what kind of economic power PCs will have at that level anyway.

[Surrealistik]

I'm out on the spike use. You might as well argue that the sword doesn't do damage, it's the force being applied by your arm that does.

It'd be the user swinging it; generating, applying and directing the force.



Yes. If you use Illusory Reality to create a spike exactly where a falling creature is going to land, the spike does no damage; the creature passes through the spike and hits the ground, and then it takes falling damage. An object created by Illusory Reality "can’t deal damage," and the damage from falling is dealt by the ground existing where it does. Just like an object that falls on you is what would "deal damage," and not whatever confluence of non-object-related physics you can cobble together.

That is one hell of a stretch. As before it isn't the spike that deals damage but phenomena of gravity and physics. Still I doubt that this will convince you, so I guess you'll have to settle for Corinath's strange workaround.


I feel okay with ruling that whatever magical properties blood or bone has that enables it to be used as a spellcasting component means that the magic requires "real" blood, and not whatever you can make "real" for a minute of Illusory Reality.

To bring up other examples, is dirt and clay magical in your view? Rock pieces? You use all of these as material components for Earthquake after all. To say that everything used or that could potentially be used as a spell component is magical despite nothing saying that this is actually the case is silly and indefensible. Further, for the minute you make them real, they're just as genuine as 'actual' dirt/clay/rock; to rule otherwise is pure and naked fiat.


Whereas I see it as "pretty clear" that the feature intends you to use it once, either at the start of the spell ("when you cast") or during the spell's duration as a bonus action. Then you get a minute of reality.

Even if that's the intention, that's not what the language says. Further, given that Malleable Illusion is similarly worded, and _clearly_ intends you to be able to change the illusion as you like on subsequent turns, it seems that the intention is indeed to enable you to make other elements real on subsequent turns, or to otherwise use it on a recurring basis.


Yep. Quite powerful. You've used your Spell Mastery feature to be able to do something that only works as long as a creature can't get around a 15x15x15 barrier before your next turn. I wouldn't call that "insane," personally, though I'll concede that it's a very strong synergy, especially for a clever player like yourself.

It's pretty insane; imprisoning Huge or smaller creatures in a tomb of adamantine at-will (as an alternative to a defensive bunker) or as a level 1 spell I'd consider to be damned powerful as an example; well worth one of your Spell Mastery slots (which you can reallocate later if you really want to). Further, the smaller the creature, the more adamantine they have to break through. This is doubly true when you consider that the vast majority of teleportation in 5e requires line of sight. Further, you can use Malleable Illusion to change it as you will.

Then of course there's the fun you can have with permanent Major Images/Programmed Illusions or Mirage Arcana (the latter permits you to make real 1 cubic mile of adamantine!!).


Master Transmuter is off-topic, but I find it difficult to really be concerned about the balance of an ability that requires an extra 8 hours of preparation just so that you can reproduce effects that any level 14 caster will have access to anyway. Unless you think Restore Youth breaks the game?

It's basically the equivalent of a free level 9 spell slot and then some given its sheer flexibility, and yes, ability to do things that casters normally cannot. It's not game breaking, but it's obviously more powerful than the preponderance of alternative L14 features.

[Corinath]

If we want to be litigious, I think a valid question would be, how would an object indirectly deal damage?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Because it's not doing damage; not directly.

If you were to fall on that spike from a great distance, is it really doing the damage/directly causing harm? If so, are you arguing you can land on top of it after free falling for a mile without taking damage?


"The object can't deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone"

Direct or indirect is strictly irrelevant unless its not damage. As for "otherwise" I don't think you can do anything to kill someone with this clause except possibly suffocate them via a small close space which would be difficult to get going. You could I suppose get say regular falling damage by dropping someone on it (or anything else) but there's zero other benefit to be had and that's only because its completely generic from falling. It would be just as viable to say that (logic be damned) that spike is a pillow and you break your fall on it, because no damage.

Its all purely a gift from the DM though.
Like any durability you get from the object for that matter, that's DM discretion too amusingly enough.

Still I think most would be reasonable with the million and six utility uses this still has.

[Surrealistik]

"The object can't deal damage or otherwise directly harm anyone"

Direct or indirect is strictly irrelevant unless its not damage. As for "otherwise" I don't think you can do anything to kill someone with this clause except possibly suffocate them via a small close space which would be difficult to get going. You could I suppose get say regular falling damage by dropping someone on it (or anything else) but there's zero other benefit to be had and that's only because its completely generic from falling. It would be just as viable to say that (logic be damned) that spike is a pillow and you break your fall on it, because no damage.

Its all purely a gift from the DM though.
Like any durability you get from the object for that matter, that's DM discretion too amusingly enough.

Still I think most would be reasonable with the million and six utility uses this still has.

But that's the thing; the argument is that gravity and force transfer are dealing the damage in reality, not the spike, even if the spike enables it.

[archaeo]

snip

Aw, you removed the line about how "since I'm not going to convince you" or whatever, thus depriving me of an easy way to just quote that and say "likewise."

But seriously, I'm done. Not only are we not going to agree, but you seem to be getting awfully heated, if not outright rude, over what amounts to quibbling over the meaning of "directly" and "deals."

[Surrealistik]

Aw, you removed the line about how "since I'm not going to convince you" or whatever, thus depriving me of an easy way to just quote that and say "likewise."

But seriously, I'm done. Not only are we not going to agree, but you seem to be getting awfully heated, if not outright rude, over what amounts to quibbling over the meaning of "directly" and "deals."

It's largely due to exasperation from repeated claims about material components that I can't even countenance as being anywhere close to reasonable or even disputable/ambiguous, which if taken as true would have some pretty silly and sweeping implications. It just feels like a cop out that's ardently defended for no reason other than trying to grasp for a RAW weakness with this feature where there isn't one (that's not to say there's nothing about its RAW that is in dispute so much as that this point of dissent has no RAW basis).

By contrast I can at least understand where you're coming from with respect to the spike argument.

[Yorrin]

I think each side has one thing wrong and one thing right:

Surrealistik is wrong about spikes & damage and such, archaeo is wrong about material components. Moreover I think you both know you're arguing something more for the sake of winning an argument than because of legitimate reasons (though archaeo MIGHT also be arguing for the sake of balance). Each of you only arrives at those respective positions by twisting words around in ways that are clearly not the way they are used in the rulebook.

[archaeo]

I think each side has one thing wrong and one thing right:

Surrealistik is wrong about spikes & damage and such, archaeo is wrong about material components. Moreover I think you both know you're arguing something more for the sake of winning an argument than because of legitimate reasons (though archaeo MIGHT also be arguing for the sake of balance). Each of you only arrives at those respective positions by twisting words around in ways that are clearly not the way they are used in the rulebook.


It's largely due to exasperation from repeated claims about material components that I can't even countenance as being anywhere close to reasonable or even disputable/ambiguous, which if taken as true would have some pretty silly and sweeping implications. It just feels like a cop out that's ardently defended for no reason other than trying to grasp for a RAW weakness with this feature where there isn't one (that's not to say there's nothing about its RAW that is in dispute so much as that this point of dissent has no RAW basis).

By contrast I can at least understand where you're coming from with respect to the spike argument.

I can definitely see how I let the material component thing get out of hand; if I had been quicker on the draw, I would've used Sora's argument up-thread that the magic cares about the "worth" of material components, somehow. The idea that material components break the "nonmagical" bit of Illusory Reality is, admittedly, a stretch; I can see where you might get annoyed.

Yorrin, I am mostly interested in balance, if only because the idea of a level 14 feature that completely eliminates the need to spend gold on material components (or find them via quest) seems outright broken. But I'll also admit that I got swept away by the argument. :smallbiggrin:

[Soras Teva Gee]

But that's the thing; the argument is that gravity and force transfer are dealing the damage in reality, not the spike, even if the spike enables it.

Well yeah but its only to falling on it. It say falling on you means it takes the falling damage and more is dealing damage which was explicitly banned.

So your work around has to be just as generic as falling damage so... maybe while really reaching the 1d4 object-that-is-not-at-all-a-weapon improvised weapon damage just to acknowledge hey something smacked you. You want your own personal "rocks fall" too bad its magic with a special condition that takes priority over all logic. Indeed that is WHY the clause is there and its very clear.

Don't like it well... to be honest Illusory Reality says "real" but "solid" would probably have been more appropriate though I guess they wanted to let you make fluids and such. If you wish to abandon the legalist position that includes the no damage period you must also acknowledge that you really don't have a fluff basis for calling your creations real given that they are actually shadowstuff you crammed inside an illusion thus clearly has a why for why it doesn't behave like say a real sword would. The shadowstuff just doesn't substitute.

So any basis there is is the end just as weak based solely on the DM agreeing with your specific interpretation. Now the DM finds it all clever, game on... but this is not a strong ability for offensive combat.

Sandbagging enemies a bit sure, never being without just the (not valuable spell component) item you need sure, the suggested bridging or other hey we need this right now uses iron clad. This is a great ability and really sings in combination... but "powerful" is implying things not in fact given to you.

[Surrealistik]

Well yeah but its only to falling on it. It say falling on you means it takes the falling damage and more is dealing damage which was explicitly banned.

So your work around has to be just as generic as falling damage so... maybe while really reaching the 1d4 object-that-is-not-at-all-a-weapon improvised weapon damage just to acknowledge hey something smacked you. You want your own personal "rocks fall" too bad its magic with a special condition that takes priority over all logic. Indeed that is WHY the clause is there and its very clear.

Don't like it well... to be honest Illusory Reality says "real" but "solid" would probably have been more appropriate though I guess they wanted to let you make fluids and such. If you wish to abandon the legalist position that includes the no damage period you must also acknowledge that you really don't have a fluff basis for calling your creations real given that they are actually shadowstuff you crammed inside an illusion thus clearly has a why for why it doesn't behave like say a real sword would. The shadowstuff just doesn't substitute.

So any basis there is is the end just as weak based solely on the DM agreeing with your specific interpretation. Now the DM finds it all clever, game on... but this is not a strong ability for offensive combat.

Sandbagging enemies a bit sure, never being without just the (not valuable spell component) item you need sure, the suggested bridging or other hey we need this right now uses iron clad. This is a great ability and really sings in combination... but "powerful" is implying things not in fact given to you.

It's not abandoning the legalist position to assert that you are taking substantial damage (millions to tens of thousands of psi assuming a 15x30 foot cone of gold after a 30 foot drop depending on the breadth and length of the tip) from kinetic force generated and applied via natural phenomena because this interpretation is that the spike does not in fact deal the damage so much as it permits the damage to happen whether it is falling on you, or you are falling on it; it merely facilitates natural physical phenomena.

Further, the assertion that an illusory element made real has no value is grasping, particularly from a legalist perspective; there isn't some kind of special price discovery/judgement that occurs whenever you make 10k of illusory diamonds for example, into 10k of real diamonds outside of DM fiat unless one is specified by the rules; no such specification exists. For the time those illusory diamonds exist as real diamonds, they do indeed have a value of 10k according to the game and can be used for spells.

Also walls/bunkers/structures/tombs (i.e. form fitting prisons) of adamantium is more than 'sandbagging enemies a bit' versus the vast preponderance of them, unless your DM is basically setting a terrible precedence by asserting that adamantine in his universe, that is the hardest and most resilient metal in the DnD universe, is uncharacteristically fragile (and when the DMG comes out, I'm sure we'll have more objective values on just how tough and resilient it is).

Beyond that, there is the capability to make up to 1 cubic mile of adamantine with this feature when using it in tandem with Mirage Arcana, as well as the ability to use it on a recurring basis with permanent illusions; all of which can be reshaped and reformed at-will.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's not abandoning the legalist position to assert that you are taking substantial damage (millions to tens of thousands of psi assuming a 15x30 foot cone of gold after a 30 foot drop depending on the breadth and length of the tip) from kinetic force generated and applied via natural phenomena because this interpretation is that the spike does not in fact deal the damage so much as it permits the damage to happen whether it is falling on you, or you are falling on it; it merely facilitates natural physical phenomena.

Physics and the logics of it means precisely diddly to mechanics.

They say you can't deal damage... you can't. That's the RAW here, everything else is dirty/clever trick like when you try and light something on fire or knock out supports to a roof.

Sure it "can" work but it is purely DM fiat that it does so right then no matter how "logical" it is. All other arguments are invalid because the DM is always right and trumps them. The DM might just happen to be swayed, but breaking the game seems a poor way to do that yes?

You're entitled to nothing on the front of killing here, indeed the DM must overrule (a little) the PHB to do so. Though that can be fair you miss utterly it is not your right and saying otherwise is nothing less then lying about the game.


Further, the assertion that an illusory element made real has no value is grasping, particularly from a legalist perspective; there isn't some kind of special price discovery/judgement that occurs whenever you make 10k of illusory diamonds for example, into 10k of real diamonds outside of DM fiat unless one is specified by the rules; no such specification exists. For the time those illusory diamonds exist as real diamonds, they do indeed have a value of 10k according to the game and can be used for spells.

Hogwash, chapter and verse on the pages detailing the rules for how your (one object) diamond is valued. Size, cut, weight, clarity, rarity? What about historical provenance? What's the math on those factors?

There of course isn't one the economy of the world is entirely with the DMs hands. Thus so are your expensive material components.

In a related note ever heard the pseudo-conspiracy theory that if all the diamonds in the world were dumped on the market the value would collapse because they are that common? You ever compare what synthetic diamonds are worth even though they can now require "real" diamonds to be specially defaced with microscopic hallmarks to tell apart?

You'd have trouble picking a better product then precious gems and particularly diamonds to demonstrate that worth is only an illusion of the market not an objective fact. Unless it was gold maybe.


Also walls/bunkers/structures/tombs (i.e. form fitting prisons) of adamantium is more than 'sandbagging enemies a bit' versus the vast preponderance of them, unless your DM is basically setting a terrible precedence by asserting that adamantine in his universe, that is the hardest and most resilient metal in the DnD universe, is uncharacteristically fragile (and when the DMG comes out, I'm sure we'll have more objective values on just how tough and resilient it is).

Not should the DM give them oh a pathetic 9 AC and 1 HP and a break DC 5 as is his RAW perogative. Or did you not look up the rules for handling objects, shall I quote? An extreme case but then you are arguing for an invincible bunker when not casting a certain Leomund spell which is how you do it properly.

You see your problem isn't that your points are so wrong on the face of thing but you take pseudo-physics (since nobody ever does proper research and calculation, for good reason and I don't expect) on what "should" happen while ignoring that you are fundamentally without rights to describe any sort of "should" with such authority and proceding to declare you have won the game. While of course also arguing for "RAW" should it suit you instead creating a tangled mess who purpose is an obvious sharpshooter

For example how do you trap your opponents in these coffins? You don't have a rule for that its an improvised action the DM decides if it works. Maybe he rules Silent Image is not flexible enough and while you take your bonus action people simply move out of too tight a trap, and that people shake off the obvious illusion as is mysteriously hardens. People are not static pieces on a gameboard, turns are approximate and it is the DM's job to adjudicate between how mechanics handle things (when they handle things) and what the "real" result of this is. That's right there in the introduction. You fail of course to consider this entirely or you'd not have spoken as such.

Now the DM would be much harder pressed in a logical sense to deny you a big box to the limits of Silent Image... but doesn't have to give you anything about how durable it is and isn't overruling the PHB in any regards there. And could like Wall of Stone say allow those with movement to get out on a save or even automatically. Your improvising, the DM decides what is appropriate with absolute priority, anything else is meaningless and irrelevant.

You take mere potential theorycraft as your god given right and argue it is powerful as if it actually exists outside your dreams of finding a DM that will allow it more then once and/or can't arrive at my invalidation of your idea for themselves. An arrogance that is nothing less then lying and immoral.

[Corinath]

Heated thread is heated.

Additionally, I really don't understand why we're arguing the direct damage part of this. When arguing the spike it's completely parallel and similar to an arrow, which has piercing damage. Sharp object has enough force to pierce squishy thing, squishy thing is hurt. Both are direct forms of contact and, as such, damage directly.

A giant adamantine boulder falling on someone is the equivalent damage type as a mace smacking someone in the head. Upon contact, that force is transferred bluntly across the squishy thing. Both are instances of direct damage.

Don't get me wrong, I've single-handedly destroyed a Lich in World of Darkness by opening one end of a portal underneath a giant safe located at my home, while opening the other portal twenty feet above his head. It was a lot of fun. Additionally I did a similar tactic to douse a vampire in moonshine located in my bathtub. It was also a lot of fun (as was lighting him on fire next). I like using magic to do unexpected things, but I think the RAI of this is that the developers didn't want a level 14 mage to one shot a slew of encounters just because the developers couldn't anticipate summoning anti-matter into the plane which happens to trigger a contingency spell on your end and takes you safe from destruction.

I love doing things like this, but even I admit it'd be OP without constraints.

On the other hand, I'm a fan of the idea of this doing secondary damage, and the creativity this would require. Catapulting enemies with a spring trap? Maybe. Summoning tar above them? Comic gold. Feathers come next. Heck, if I saw that as a DM I'd maybe even apply 1d4 psychic damage to an enemy who was tar and feathered by the player, and give them disadvantage on an attack roll (as though Vicious Mockery). Cause, you know, fun game is fun.

I'm all for being creative with this. But I agree in not being able to apply 20d6 blunt damage every single round at level 18 with no resource cost.

[khachaturian]

think of the poor cat girls!

[Surrealistik]

Now this is being truly pointed and rude, especially given all these insulting projections thrust upon me; the anger in your reply is nearly palpable.


First of all, as I have said with respect to the cone, if the interpretation that the damage comes from physical phenomena and not the object itself is accepted, it can absolutely be leveraged offensively because the object is not actually causing the damage and it is not directly harming anything; both of these conditions associated with the RAW are satisfied in this case. This is what is being argued. If that interpretation is not accepted per the DM, then yes, of course no damage can be dealt.


Second, on the subject of diamonds, without an objective and static 'fair value' of some kind so far as the value of material components are assessed, on which market value is the requisite amount of material components to cast a spell based? Where is this price discovery coming from? The market of Neverwinter? The Underdark? The Nine Hells? The City of Brass? The shady dealer who gouged you 10k for a diamond worth 2k at best at the local market price? Some average of every diamond spot price at that precise moment in time across the multiverse? With or without the presumption of perfect information? Is the amount of diamonds required to cast a spell therefore variable and constantly in flux?

Clearly there is an objective, universal and static 'fair value' that parallels and is separate from market value (the aggregate result of bid and ask price discovery in a localized area, or whatever you can convince someone to pay) here. If you're instead trying to argue that the DM can fiat that your illusory diamond made real is worthless according to this universal fair value for the purpose of serving as a material component, no matter how large or resplendent or perfectly cut the diamond, no matter if it's a perfect replica of a diamond that's deemed worth 100k by the same universal fair value, because it stops being real in a minute, well sure. The DM can indeed fiat this into the ground, but it's exactly that; fiat. I am not concerned with DM fiat here as an exploration of this feature's default capabilities.

The bottom line is that if you create an illusory giant diamond that would normally be worth a given value if it were real according to that objective 'fair value' which must exist lest we have ridiculous variable material component volumes, and you then make that diamond real, it is then actually worth that amount for the time it is real according to that objective fair value by definition short of explicit DM intervention.



Third, no I am not asking for an 'invincible bunker'. Adamantine is tough, not invulnerable, and thousands of solid cubic feet of it is very tough indeed, but not literally indestructible.

As for 'psuedophysics' please; needlessly crude and belligerent. I ball parked the amount of pressure in a broad range that certainly contains the actual amount which is still very much lethal no matter where it settles in that range.

Further, the entombment works just as it seems to; you create a form fitting block of adamantine around the target and make it real, thereby trapping it unless the target can somehow counteract or avoid it via mechanics he actually has access to (like counterspell, some sort of Reaction based movement, etc), because there is nothing that describes a saving throw or take any kind of action allowing him to avoid being entombed. Beyond that, I actually don't mind the DM relying on the precedence of similar effects like those of spells to step in here and award a Reflex save to avoid being Han Soloed in adamantine, but that would again be fiat; adding rules that aren't there. Wall of Stone has the rule about expending one's Reaction to make a Dexterity save to move out of its area; this doesn't.

Ultimately, if the DM wants to fiat much of the utility and power out of the feature, he can, and probably should. I have never argued against this, but such fiat certainly isn't RAW and doesn't accurately definite its default capabilities.

And no, reviewing/exploring the capabilities of this class feature is not about attempting to break 5e or to theorycraft exploits for use in games where a 'dream DM' who would not try to stop it with dubious circumventions, nor is it about 'winning'; it's about trying to pin down what the feature is actually capable of under default circumstances, and if it's broken, to flag it as a problem. If the former were true, and I was legitimately interested in using an abusive interpretation of this class feature to break the game and give myself disproportionate power as an end goal, I'd probably end up using another option which I've already discovered that works far better and doesn't rely on murky wording or DM interpretation/adjudication at all (i.e. Wish + Simulacrum), and I certainly wouldn't offer suggestions on how to fix broken and imbalanced elements as I've done per my 5e homebrew index.


Lastly, seeing as no further productive discussion can come from interacting with you on this topic given your consistently hostile tone, I'm done discussing this with you.

[Blacky the Blackball]

The ability seems quite straightforward to me.

You create an illusion, and the illusion is enhanced with "shadow magic" that gives it "semi-reality" (both quotes from the first sentence of the ability description). Note that you have not created an actual object - you've just created an illusion that acts like the actual object.

However, the degree to which the illusion acts like the actual object is limited in that it can't hurt people, either directly or indirectly. It can act as the real object to a lesser extent though.

For example, if you create a block of adamantine on the floor, it will sit there and act like a block of adamantine. It will be heavy, and it will block movement. It will also be strong enough to support someone's weight (as in the bridge example in the ability's write-up). However, it isn't strong enough to damage anyone. If you created the block (or a spike or a blade) above someone's head and dropped it on them it wouldn't hurt them. The impact would cancel the illusion instead. Similarly if someone simply leans on or pushes the block then it won't give way, but if someone rams or hits it hard enough to do damage then this will cancel the illusion.

This applies to other properties too. Illusory fire will be hot like real fire, and may be capable of starting real fires if there are flammable objects near it, but it won't actually burn someone. Illusory water will be wet and can smother someone, but they can't drown in it because it's not actual water and so air can permeate it. Similarly an illusory form-fitting encasement of steel around someone won't suffocate them because it's not actual steel and air can permeate it.

Going back to the bridge example, an illusory steel bridge would support your weight if you stood on it. It would even support your weight if you jumped up and down on it. But if you fell and landed on it hard enough to take damage then this would cancel the illusion and you'd continue to fall.

As I say, it's very straightforward - the illusory object has the properties of the real object up until the point when those real properties would prove damaging to someone. At that point the illusion is unable to provide the strength (or heat or sufficiently airtight barrier or whatever) that is needed even if a real object of the same type would have it.

As for the material component side of things, I'd suggest that it's a up to the individual DM whether they allow it or not. Personally, I'd say that whatever essential property of the component it is that the spell needs is likely to be insufficiently present in the "semi-real" illusory version; so you can't create illusory material components and then use them to cast spells. But that would be a DM ruling rather than an interpretation of the rules. Unlike the damage case - where we have a very clear rule saying that the illusory object can't cause damage, not even indirectly - this isn't mentioned.

[Dracothius]

If you were in a cave, could you use the illusion to create a plow that plowed the ceiling(might work in a building too) and caused earth to fall downward onto whoever might be under it? For that matter, could you make a plow that plowed the earth 6 inches from the surface causing enemies to break the ground and fall inward becoming entombed in earth?

[archaeo]

If you were in a cave, could you use the illusion to create a plow that plowed the ceiling(might work in a building too) and caused earth to fall downward onto whoever might be under it? For that matter, could you make a plow that plowed the earth 6 inches from the surface causing enemies to break the ground and fall inward becoming entombed in earth?

IIRC, doesn't 5e model this as doing "damage" to objects? I'd forbid this kind of thing based only on the idea that, if an illusory spike can't damage your face, an illusory plow can't damage natural features. Wizards have plenty of other ways to blow the landscape apart.

[pwykersotz]

The ability seems quite straightforward to me.

You create an illusion, and the illusion is enhanced with "shadow magic" that gives it "semi-reality" (both quotes from the first sentence of the ability description). Note that you have not created an actual object - you've just created an illusion that acts like the actual object.

However, the degree to which the illusion acts like the actual object is limited in that it can't hurt people, either directly or indirectly. It can act as the real object to a lesser extent though.

For example, if you create a block of adamantine on the floor, it will sit there and act like a block of adamantine. It will be heavy, and it will block movement. It will also be strong enough to support someone's weight (as in the bridge example in the ability's write-up). However, it isn't strong enough to damage anyone. If you created the block (or a spike or a blade) above someone's head and dropped it on them it wouldn't hurt them. The impact would cancel the illusion instead. Similarly if someone simply leans on or pushes the block then it won't give way, but if someone rams or hits it hard enough to do damage then this will cancel the illusion.

This applies to other properties too. Illusory fire will be hot like real fire, and may be capable of starting real fires if there are flammable objects near it, but it won't actually burn someone. Illusory water will be wet and can smother someone, but they can't drown in it because it's not actual water and so air can permeate it. Similarly an illusory form-fitting encasement of steel around someone won't suffocate them because it's not actual steel and air can permeate it.

Going back to the bridge example, an illusory steel bridge would support your weight if you stood on it. It would even support your weight if you jumped up and down on it. But if you fell and landed on it hard enough to take damage then this would cancel the illusion and you'd continue to fall.

As I say, it's very straightforward - the illusory object has the properties of the real object up until the point when those real properties would prove damaging to someone. At that point the illusion is unable to provide the strength (or heat or sufficiently airtight barrier or whatever) that is needed even if a real object of the same type would have it.

As for the material component side of things, I'd suggest that it's a up to the individual DM whether they allow it or not. Personally, I'd say that whatever essential property of the component it is that the spell needs is likely to be insufficiently present in the "semi-real" illusory version; so you can't create illusory material components and then use them to cast spells. But that would be a DM ruling rather than an interpretation of the rules. Unlike the damage case - where we have a very clear rule saying that the illusory object can't cause damage, not even indirectly - this isn't mentioned.

This seems exactly correct to me.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

How about entombing someone(s) in a block of adamantine with no room to move? Far from `dealing damage` or `directly harming` anyone, it will leave them very well protected. The same, alas, cannot be said of their allies.

In fact, an enterprising illusionist could try making an even tighter fit, by not leaving any room to breathe either. That's pretty indirect harm, and technically, I believe, does not as such deal damage...

[JoeJ]

If we want to be litigious, I think a valid question would be, how would an object indirectly deal damage?

If you use it to trigger a perfectly real trap that was already in place.

[MaxWilson]

The feature says it can't directly deal damage, and it doesn't directly deal damage. Is the ground directly and actively dealing damage to you when you fall onto it from a great height? What's dealing the damage is force and its source, the physical phenomena of gravity, and the physics underpinning its transfer; the existence of the ground permits that force transfer but is not directly responsible for it, or the cause of it.

Yes, the ground is directly damaging you when you fall onto it from a great height. I don't see how you could possibly argue otherwise. It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[archaeo]

How about entombing someone(s) in a block of adamantine with no room to move? Far from `dealing damage` or `directly harming` anyone, it will leave them very well protected. The same, alas, cannot be said of their allies.

In fact, an enterprising illusionist could try making an even tighter fit, by not leaving any room to breathe either. That's pretty indirect harm, and technically, I believe, does not as such deal damage...

Hm. While I'd certainly allow entombing someone using Illusory Reality, it seems pretty self-evident that the feature could do something like that pretty trivially, assuming you use an illusion spell that allows you to make a sufficiently big block.

But suffocation simply won't be an issue given that the feature only gives a single minute of reality.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

illusory reality is powerful, but DMs should probably encourage inventive use suited to a situation. Especially avoid 'saveless' crowd control.

for example, even if you were to allow illusory entombment, it should probably allow a dex save or some similar save.

[McBars]

First of all, as I have said with respect to the cone, if the interpretation that the damage comes from physical phenomena and not the object itself is accepted, it can absolutely be leveraged offensively because the object is not actually causing the damage and it is not directly harming anything; both of these conditions associated with the RAW are satisfied in this case. This is what is being argued. If that interpretation is not accepted per the DM, then yes, of course no damage can be dealt.

Hey there. While the "outcome" of this discussion is of little consequence, as the spell's important contingencies hinge upon DM discretion for practical application of this cool class feature, I think it is worthwhile to examine some of the claims being made about physics!

For the purpose of this academic exercise I reject the interpretation of the physical (theoretically) damage dealing phenomena and the object itself being 2 distinct quantities:

F = ma; Fg = mg (pressure is merely F/area, or Fc, and for the purposes of this discussion is ~equivalent to force).

If "the force of gravity, Fg" on the target by the illusory object is the source of damage,
and the force of gravity on the target by the illusory object equals the mass of the illusory object times some constant g,
then the mass of the illusory object, (and by proxy, the illusory object itself) is indeed the source of damage


As for antimatter, it's theoretical prediction required the knowledge of particle physics and the mathematics that underpin that field (no pun intended) AND it's experimental validation required exquisite technology. I think without some serious divine intervention, a wizard will have 0 knowledge of antimatter.

[Fwiffo86]

Thank you for that.
Math saves lives.

[JoeJ]

As for antimatter, it's theoretical prediction required the knowledge of particle physics and the mathematics that underpin that field (no pun intended) AND it's experimental validation required exquisite technology. I think without some serious divine intervention, a wizard will have 0 knowledge of antimatter.

Also, unless it's included in an official setting at some point, a DM has 0 reason to accept that antimatter even exists in the first place.

[MaxWilson]

Also, unless it's included in an official setting at some point, a DM has 0 reason to accept that antimatter even exists in the first place.

The antimatter rifle on page 268 of the DMG might count as a reason.

[Telok]

Actually the ability to create any object within a volume and have that object incapable of doing damage is pretty neat. Since the object is effectively real in all senses except it's ability to do damage you can use it for anything that could normally do damge to you.

Make an illusionary metal cube fifteen feet across. It can't do damage so you can fall onto it from any height and walk away unhurt. Steel normally conducts heat, but a steel boat made this way can't hurt you. So you can row across the lava sea safely. Adamantine weapons from this power can't hurt people. Coat all your enemy's weapons in illusionary adamantine and they can't even bruise a ripe peach. You can't be cut by the shards of an illusionary glass hammer, which you can fill with real poison.

The ability to make things that can't hurt you under any circumstances is just as powerful as the ability to make mere spikes.

[JoeJ]

The antimatter rifle on page 268 of the DMG might count as a reason.

And the fact that it does necrotic damage while the lasers do radiant damage might count as a reason to think that, whatever "antimatter" is in D&D, it's not the antimatter of our reality.

[Santra]

Now the largest problem I am having with his spike argument is that it defies how physics works.

Gravity imparts kinetic energy to the spike. The spike thusly transfers this kinetic energy to the target. Therefore the spike is doing the damage while gravity is merely the initial driving power.

Telok is the one with the REAL abuse of this power.

[McBars]

Also, unless it's included in an official setting at some point, a DM has 0 reason to accept that antimatter even exists in the first place.

Agreed!

While I love science, I'd rather the DM keep that serious nonsense away from the tabletop. I only brought it up as the OP was adamant about using bits of classical & subatomic mechanics to support his elf game argument.

[Surrealistik]

I'm surprised this thread is still alive.

Granted on the force transfer counterargument; this occurred to me later.


How about entombing someone(s) in a block of adamantine with no room to move? Far from `dealing damage` or `directly harming` anyone, it will leave them very well protected. The same, alas, cannot be said of their allies.

In fact, an enterprising illusionist could try making an even tighter fit, by not leaving any room to breathe either. That's pretty indirect harm, and technically, I believe, does not as such deal damage...

This was indeed brought up; basically using it to create effectively impenetrable barriers/prisons at-will using a single action (there's also the craziness you can do with illusions as large as those created by say Mirage Arcana); probably the best/most consistent combat use.


And the fact that it does necrotic damage while the lasers do radiant damage might count as a reason to think that, whatever "antimatter" is in D&D, it's not the antimatter of our reality.

It withers matter (per the Necrotic damage description) rather than explosively detonating it, so this is fair enough.


Discovering antimatter as we understand it (assuming it exists in the DnD universe) though I don't think is particularly outlandish for a high level Wizard with access to the right divination magic (which does indeed involve consulting with gods/godlike entities).

[Sartharina]

I'd rule that the spell doesn't actually make anything of the material beyond surface resemblance. It's more or less an illusory 3D printer thing. You make objects of ambiguous composition, but not actual materials with the spell.

[Nowhere Girl]

First, let me apologize for committing thread necromancy. Feel free to get your torches and pitchforks out if you like, even! But I just came across this thread, and the topic seems to me to still be pretty relevant, and anyway, there was no way I could just let this go:


Yes. If you use Illusory Reality to create a spike exactly where a falling creature is going to land, the spike does no damage; the creature passes through the spike and hits the ground, and then it takes falling damage. An object created by Illusory Reality "can’t deal damage," and the damage from falling is dealt by the ground existing where it does. Just like an object that falls on you is what would "deal damage," and not whatever confluence of non-object-related physics you can cobble together.

The bolded part of this is incorrect according to any possible logical interpretation of Illusory Reality ... basically ever. Even in the most hard-line "never ever deal damage" interpretation, you can't skip the "reality" part of it. That part isn't optional!

So in the most hard-line "no damage" interpretation of the ability, the spike cannot penetrate a falling creature's body regardless of falling speed, as that would be "dealing damage." However, the falling creature also cannot simply pass through the spike, because the spike has been made temporarily "real," and you can't pass through real spikes (at least not without being ethereal or something), even real spikes that never under any circumstances deal damage.

Here's where it gets wacky: in the strictest "no damage" interpretation, not only can't you pass through the spike, and not only can't the spike penetrate your body, but in that same interpretation, your body also cannot in any way, shape or form break on impact with the spike, as that would mean the spike dealt damage. Even if your back hits the spike, with the point striking directly against your spine, your back cannot in any way break or even take a single point of damage from the impact! Even if you're completely naked and falling at terminal velocity, and the spike is an adamantine spike that was created to taper to a monomolecular point, you still must stop at the tip of it without taking a single point of damage!

Now, I'm not saying this isn't how it should actually work, but I did want to point out how bizarre it is ... and also that passing through the spike is not an option in any valid interpretation. You either get impaled, or you just stop without any harm from the impact at all, but you definitely can't "pass through" the spike because it's "real," and it therefore is not about to let you disrespect its newfound reality by just trying to pass through it like that!

[TopCheese]

So...

Silent Image + Spell Mastery + Illusory Reality = At-will obstacles/walls/cubes of adamantine or force, and free artifacts and expensive material components?

I have to say, my favorite trick with this is making a spell book for the wizard.

[JackPhoenix]

snip

The solution is simple, the spike stops being "real" the moment it would cause damage. The same reason why "real" illusory fire can't burn anything, being hit by a "real" illusory stick won't hurt, etc.. It's not spelled in the ability description, but it makes sense as RAI.

[Hawkstar]

I can see this being leveraged offensively too; creating a 15x15x15 foot solid block of osmium or something over an opponent's head; it's not directly harming them; gravity and physics are doing that.

Make sure you put "1000 TONS" in bold white lettering on it, to complete the image. Of course, due to a quirk in the system, the guy will probably survive (And push out a sign saying he's okay from under the massive weight).

[Nowhere Girl]

The solution is simple, the spike stops being "real" the moment it would cause damage. The same reason why "real" illusory fire can't burn anything, being hit by a "real" illusory stick won't hurt, etc.. It's not spelled in the ability description, but it makes sense as RAI.

I'd rephrase that as "it's not spelled out in the ability description, nor does it make sense as RAI." Sure, you could house-rule it that way, but then it's not really the ability as described anymore, as objects made "real" not only don't deal damage and can't be used to cause direct harm but now also carry an additional rider that the reality effect can be "dispelled" by anyone who simply strikes them, whether unintentionally or deliberately, in a way that could cause that person even a single point of damage.

In effect, the battlefield control aspect of the ability gets more or less completely shut down as now, all anyone has to do to get rid of an Illusory Reality barrier is punch it bare-handed, causing a situation that would result in trivial self-inflicted damage and therefore immediately canceling the "reality" effect. I suppose you could try to say otherwise, but then your ruling isn't really consistent and makes no sense.

tl;dr: Yes, you could make that house-rule, but it doesn't look remotely RAI to me and would result in nerfing the ability beyond just a question of falling on spikes.

[NNescio]

I'd rephrase that as "it's not spelled out in the ability description, nor does it make sense as RAI." Sure, you could house-rule it that way, but then it's not really the ability as described anymore, as objects made "real" not only don't deal damage and can't be used to cause direct harm but now also carry an additional rider that the reality effect can be "dispelled" by anyone who simply strikes them, whether unintentionally or deliberately, in a way that could cause that person even a single point of damage.

In effect, the battlefield control aspect of the ability gets more or less completely shut down as now, all anyone has to do to get rid of an Illusory Reality barrier is punch it bare-handed, causing a situation that would result in trivial self-inflicted damage and therefore immediately canceling the "reality" effect. I suppose you could try to say otherwise, but then your ruling isn't really consistent and makes no sense.

tl;dr: Yes, you could make that house-rule, but it doesn't look remotely RAI to me and would result in nerfing the ability beyond just a question of falling on spikes.

The way I interpret it is that the spike is real in all ways except that it can't deal damage, period. So a creature falling on a illusorily real spike would feel the impact and pain and anything... but won't take damage. Why? Because the rules say so it's shadow magic, that's why.

Flavor-wise, I see the ability as forcefully changing reality to co-align with the parameters of the illusion (the illusion changes reality by merely impinging on it), but the forceful change fails to take effect when direct damage is concerned, because, well, balance (shadow) magic.

Makes the Illusionist the ultimate torturer though.

From a balance perspective, I interpret all damage directly caused by the illusorily real illusion as direct damage, and hence forbidden. Arguing that the damage is 'indirect' because it's caused by gravity, and not 'directly' by the object opens to further abuse like fire (it's not the fire dealing damage, it's the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics), trebuchets (it's not the projectile dealing damage, it's gravity), noxious gases (it's not the gas dealing damage, it's your inability to breathe), etc.

I believe RAI intends indirect damage to be things like making people fall on a real surface (because you trip over an illusion which was suddenly made real) or from undermining a previous existing real structure.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, missed nonmagical, that does rein it in quite a bit; still very strong, probably the most powerful L14 wizard feature overall with the possible exception of the Transmuter feature (even acknowledging stuff like the Evocation L14 maximizing cantrip damage unconditionally).

I don't think the "material components" thing is going to fly. It wouldn't at my table: magically-created fake material components aren't material components.

The necromancer's Command Undead is situationally very powerful. You can wind up with your own permanent Mummy Lord for example. Depends on campaign details.

[JackPhoenix]

snip

So, if you're falling from great height, you don't need Feather Fall, but a Minor Illusion of stalagmite under you to stop yourself from getting killed? I realise it's a high level ability, but if the semi-real object doesn't behave like a real object and breaks the laws of physics (such as they are in D&D), I favor the laws of physics to the illusion. And it doesn't have to be dispelled, it just stops being real long enough to prevent it from causing damage.

[Nowhere Girl]

So, if you're falling from great height, you don't need Feather Fall, but a Minor Illusion of stalagmite under you to stop yourself from getting killed?

Yes. Exactly that and nothing more or less.

Either that or you can go with the other person's interpretation -- that gravity is doing the damage, not the spike, and therefore, it works in the normal way. Anything else is a house rule.


I realise it's a high level ability, but if the semi-real object doesn't behave like a real object and breaks the laws of physics (such as they are in D&D), I favor the laws of physics to the illusion. And it doesn't have to be dispelled, it just stops being real long enough to prevent it from causing damage.

Well look, if we're going to talk about house rules, I personally would just eliminate the "can't deal damage" and "can't do harm directly" riders entirely and go from there. I get what they were trying to do with it, but their solution creates more problems than it solves.

A simpler and more elegant solution is to just allow logical saves against things that would do harm. For example: you create an illusion of a falling block of stone overhead and then make it real? Okay, Reflex save to avoid.

Honestly, the things you can unambiguously do with the ability (create an adamantine prison with no bars or windows around an enemy, block off sections of the battlefield, seal tunnels, etc.) are really more threatening and effective in most situations than using it as a poor man's direct damage spell anyway.

But what I'm talking about is also just a house rule. RAW, being impaled on a spike is either interpreted as indirect harm and as gravity doing the damage, and you are therefore impaled on the spike when you fall, or it's interpreted as direct harm and as the spike doing damage, and you therefore cannot take any damage.

I suppose a puzzling third option could be introduced wherein the spike does not penetrate your body, but you still take damage from the sudden stop -- perfectly balanced on the razor-sharp tip of a spike that won't penetrate you even the tiniest bit. All of the damage taken would just come from instant deceleration and not at all from any external objects. However, in no RAW-valid interpretation can the spike just stop being real for a moment because that's not at any point mentioned as part of how the ability works; it's just something you archaeo made up.

RAI? I think they made the ability this way just to troll us. Or maybe they threw a dart at a dartboard. Or it was created by an experimental AI! Or ...

Talking RAI is pure speculation. You can say anything you want to say when all you're really doing is applying your own personal biases with no evidence to your speculations about someone else's intentions.

[Aetol]

I suppose a puzzling third option could be introduced wherein the spike does not penetrate your body, but you still take damage from the sudden stop -- perfectly balanced on the razor-sharp tip of a spike that won't penetrate you even the tiniest bit. All of the damage taken would just come from instant deceleration and not at all from any external objects. However, in no RAW-valid interpretation can the spike just stop being real for a moment because that's not at any point mentioned as part of how the ability works; it's just something you archaeo made up.

I think that's how it would work. Except the "balancing perfectly on the tip" part ; you'd probably fall to the side instead. The normal falling damage isn't caused by the illusory spike : you would have been damaged just as much if it wasn't there. What you don't take is extra damage from being skewered on a spike (since you can't be skewered).

That also means that Illusory reality can be used to break someone's fall, or to prevent them from landing on very real spikes. Or cause them to take full damage instead of landing on a cushion, probably.

Re : material components : what does "worth X gp" mean exactly ? What if you have to actually pay that price in the process of acquiring it ? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html)

[Shaofoo]

So, if you're falling from great height, you don't need Feather Fall, but a Minor Illusion of stalagmite under you to stop yourself from getting killed? I realise it's a high level ability, but if the semi-real object doesn't behave like a real object and breaks the laws of physics (such as they are in D&D), I favor the laws of physics to the illusion. And it doesn't have to be dispelled, it just stops being real long enough to prevent it from causing damage.

Well there is also the thing that all illusion spells require an action to pull off while Feather Fall is a reaction that happens as soon as you fall. Unless you are readying an action to cast a silent image to protect yourself from falling... which makes me wonder what situation would you find yourself saying that ( I am sure people could come up with edge cases anyway).

[Aetol]

Well there is also the thing that all illusion spells require an action to pull off while Feather Fall is a reaction that happens as soon as you fall. Unless you are readying an action to cast a silent image to protect yourself from falling... which makes me wonder what situation would you find yourself saying that ( I am sure people could come up with edge cases anyway).

Or maybe someone is falling for more than 6 seconds ? (...that's 180 m / 600 ft)

[Shaofoo]

Or maybe someone is falling for more than 6 seconds ? (...that's 180 m / 600 ft)

Well the only reason that would be useful is if you want to stop yourself in midair by making a floating cube of matter though some people might say that the illusion breaks since you aren't supposed to take damage so you just keep on falling anyway.

Basically Feather Fall doesn't mess with your plans to not become a pancake while Illusory Reality shenanigans is basically up to the DM to see if he wishes to use physics or not.

[Nowhere Girl]

What it really comes down to is that playing an illusionist wizard pretty much requires you to have a lengthy Q&A with your DM first ... unless you want to risk getting some nasty surprises if the game ever goes that far. Mirage Arcane is weird enough, being apparently sort of quasi-real, as even beings with truesight "can" interact with it physically. So then of course that leads to this question: does that mean they can but don't have to? Or does it mean that the spell has actually altered the physical landscape, and you have to interact with those changes even if you have truesight, but you can also see the "truth" underneath it?

And so on. I mean, we could almost start another thread right now to discuss Mirage Arcane, because there would probably be a dozen different interpretations of it, with at least half of those people insisting that their interpretation is "obviously" the "common sense/correct/RAI" one.

And Illusory Reality is even weirder, and by a fair margin at that ...

[NNescio]

Well there is also the thing that all illusion spells require an action to pull off while Feather Fall is a reaction that happens as soon as you fall. Unless you are readying an action to cast a silent image to protect yourself from falling... which makes me wonder what situation would you find yourself saying that ( I am sure people could come up with edge cases anyway).

IIRC you'll need another bonus action to make the illusion real, on top of the action required to cast the spell.

[PoeticDwarf]

You don't have to be 18 wizard, 2 warlock (misty visions) and 14 wizard gives it even faster.