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S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-17, 06:05 AM
So I was thinking about using a Lich in a camping and I had the idea(after reading lotfp Qelong) that his soul is sealed in a atomic bomb like magical artifact that was used in a demigod war long time ago.

If the players want to kill the Lich emperor who is terrorizing the realm they will destroy a big part of it in the process.

It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it? So I can prepare something in advance.

Killer Angel
2014-09-17, 06:11 AM
It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it?

:smallconfused:
Remove the core of fissile material and defuse it.

BWR
2014-09-17, 06:14 AM
Teleport/gate it somewhere it can't do too much damage

Brother Oni
2014-09-17, 06:27 AM
Along Killer Angel's suggestion, simply remove the detonator, then dismantle the now safe (well safer) bomb.

A little more risky and it depends on exactly what the design of the bomb is, but destroying it in a controlled explosion may also be possible.

Cazero
2014-09-17, 06:39 AM
Military grade explosives are specifically designed to avoid accidental explosion. It's simply impossible for plastic to explode by shooting it. An atomic bomb design probably follow the same general idea. The only difference is the nature of the payload, wich might release harmful radiation if the bomb structure is breached.
Defusing the bomb should be like disarming a trap IMO. The difficulty would be high because your players don't know how to do it, but if it's some kind of military device, it's relatively safe to poke around. Think about that scene in Goldfinger, where Bond has no idea what to do and the expert stop the bomb simply by pushing a button : that is actually realistic.
But if it was specifically designed to prevent defusing, any amount of explosion trigger mechanisms are fair game, and detonating the bomb suddenly sounds much safer since it grants a better control on when and where that "maybe on my face if I fail".

Daishain
2014-09-17, 06:43 AM
Plane shift to the abyss, then detonate it deliberately.

Two birds with one stone.

DigoDragon
2014-09-17, 06:51 AM
Military grade explosives are specifically designed to avoid accidental explosion. It's simply impossible for plastic to explode by shooting it. An atomic bomb design probably follow the same general idea. The only difference is the nature of the payload, wich might release harmful radiation if the bomb structure is breached.

Pretty much this from what I've read. Worst case scenarios on diffusing an atom bomb is that one or more of the explosive packets connected to the detonator goes off and kills everyone in the room (and might irradiate the building if the core gets breached). Though the idea of a lich using this as his Phylactery is pretty awesome.

But if the bomb had to be detonated to destroy it, then the PCs' best bet is to bury it on a remote island. Oh and contact the United Nations (or whatever powers-that-be are who run the known world). Might be a good idea to let everyone know you're going to set this thing off so no one panics. :smallbiggrin:

Alex12
2014-09-17, 06:57 AM
So if I read you correctly, it's not actually an atom bomb, but some kind of ancient magical explosive WMD.

As others have said, nuclear devices are built to fail safe, rather than fail deadly. If this thing was built by a military, I see no reason for the protocol to have changed.

OTOH, if the spells the lich put on the device make it so that it requires something akin to the force of detonation to destroy, that's a different thing entirely. The best answer I can give you there is to put it someplace you either don't care about or don't like, or that doesn't have anything important to destroy, before you detonate it. The Abyss was mentioned, but someplace like the elemental plane of fire or the negative energy plane might work too.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-09-17, 07:10 AM
As was asked about in another thread, drop it into lava (which is an accepted way of getting rid of artefacts anyway, just ask Gandalf :smallwink:) - the worst case scenario is that the initiating explosive charges will cook off in a random manner due to differential heating, and thus won't create a critical mass, merely expel the fissile material into the magma.

Although you may want time stop and teleport spells prepared, just in case.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-09-17, 08:36 AM
So I was thinking about using a Lich in a camping and I had the idea(after reading lotfp Qelong) that his soul is sealed in a atomic bomb like magical artifact that was used in a demigod war long time ago.

If the players want to kill the Lich emperor who is terrorizing the realm they will destroy a big part of it in the process.

It is kind of a impossible to win situation and I want to keep it that way. Do you guys have any idea of how to destroy the bomb without activating it? So I can prepare something in advance.
I'll go out on a limb and assume that by saying you want it to be an atomic bomb like artifact, you're looking for a replication of the effect of a really big bomb, and not the replication of a really big bomb's technical operation.

Artifacts have special rules, so whether or not it can even be defused in a way that doesn't detonate it is entirely up to you.

But if it can be moved, someone could always dump it in a bag of holding, plane shift (or teleport) it somewhere, then detonate it there. Or portable hole + bag of holding. Or use disjunction. Or any other destroy/lose anything methods.

I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on me and fail my save.

It's not certain if the delayed spell would trigger it while I was imprisoned, but if it did I would be impervious to the harm it caused. If the delayed spell was also frozen (so that it instead triggers one round after freedom is cast), we're still going to have the lich regenerate (potentially) inside the same prison I'm in, only to be immediately obliterated if he's ever released. Divinations could tell if the plan worked as intended to allow for the character's release.

That's not an ideal solution, as the worst case scenario means the right freedom spell could kill everyone within a big region. But hey, ending a campaign by building a statue of the nameless hero on the wrong spot (to throw off people trying to do this) would be a pretty cool way to end a campaign.

There's probably sillier solutions out there that wouldn't require the ambiguous rules to be interpreted in a way favorable for me. That's just what I thought of.

Lord Torath
2014-09-17, 08:52 AM
It sort of depends on how the artifact is triggered/destroyed. Presumably the original creators had a method of remote detonation, so they could destroy the god-killing abomination/their neighbors without being destroyed themselves. Presumably, it also would not inflict significant damage to the planet itself (as the creators would presumably still want to live there). So really, all it takes in putting the device somewhere its detonation will cause no damage, and trigger the thing. It's actually easier to safely dispose of this sort of thing in a fantasy world than in the modern day. Open a Dimension Door* to a location 1 AU directly "north" of the Sun, toss the thing through, and trigger the detonation. Problem solved, lich destroyed.

*Or Teleport Object. Or one of the host of other spells that will do the same thing.

Frozen_Feet
2014-09-17, 08:58 AM
I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on me...

If you have something like Imprisonment at hand, cast it on the god-damn Lich and don't worry about the phylactery.

Seriously. Spells like that were made for precisely this sort of annoying, unkillable enemies.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-17, 09:40 AM
Plane Shift it to the positive energy plane, then kill the lich.

Or put it in a portable hole, seal it up, then toss the hole in a bag of holding.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-09-17, 10:03 AM
Make the Phylactery the trigger for a bomb far away from where the Lich and his Phylactery might be.

Set it up as a kill switch of activated will destroy the city leaving those who triggered t to know they killed so many. The only other way is to carry the device to an Archmage to remove the safety measure. This gives the Lich enough time to recover the Phylactery, because he knows no hero worth his salt would risk lives of a city to kill one Lich.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-17, 10:55 AM
How big is it? They could do one of the following:

Detonate it inside a Resilient Sphere.
Detonate it inside a cube made of Walls of Force.
Move it somewhere it's unlikely to cause much trouble. Preferably somewhere you don't like.
Move the A-Bomb to a null-magic plane, smash it to pieces with a hammer. Use Invoke Magic and shadow well to escape from the null-magic plane.
Cast Disjunction on it, potentially sacrificing their spellcasting to knock its magic out. Ideally use an object to cast it, so nobody's spellcasting is risked.
Polymorph it into something harmless, then destroy it.
Place it inside a bag of holding (or something like that), then puncture the bag so the artifact is lost forever.
Use UMD or something to defuse it.
Evacuate the region, then detonate it.
Capture the lich's soul (with a Trap the Soul spell, or a Thinaun weapon), and then destroy the soul by using it as a material component for a cantrip.
Incapacitate the lich, do the Flesh to Stone -> Rock to Mud thing so he doesn't ever technically die. Place the remains in a Bag of Holding and puncture it so he's lost forever.
Wish for the bomb's' explosion to not deal damage.


EDIT: But wait, there's more!
My favorite solution? Incapacitate the lich (using antimagic shenanigans as appropriate), and strap him to his phylactery-bomb (or at least within the blast radius). Tell him that if he wants to survive, he must tell the PCs how to defuse the bomb. If the bomb detonates, the lich is destroyed forever. If the bomb doesn't detonate, tell the lich he gets to live in prison or have some chance at continuing his existence. You could also try Mindraping or Probe Thoughts-ing* the lich if he won't tell you.

*If immunity is an issue, do something like polymorph to change the lich's type away from undead.

IAmTehDave
2014-09-17, 11:20 AM
(I don't know why I read "Phylactery" as "Prophylactic" at first...)

The players could also do something that will trigger the explosion in 1 round, and then Teleport the bomb (just the bomb, not themselves) to, say, somewhere they can see that would allow an explosion of that magnitude without repercussion: the sun

Alternatively, they could Plane Shift the phylactery to another plane (Not the Positive Energy Plane) and detonate it there.

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-17, 01:15 PM
Interesting.
More details: The weapon is dormant. It was meant to be activated to destroy that region but something happened and it did not explode. So it is very unstable. Moving it or just being near it may cause its delayed explosion to trigger, killing everything around it and corrupting the area.

None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
-The lich himself
-Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
-The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
- The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
-The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.


:smallconfused:
Remove the core of fissile material and defuse it.

I think that whould take a lot of technical knowledge in ancient lost technologies. I mean even if it was a normal bomb very few people in this world would be able to disarm it.


Along Killer Angel's suggestion, simply remove the detonator, then dismantle the now safe (well safer) bomb.

A little more risky and it depends on exactly what the design of the bomb is, but destroying it in a controlled explosion may also be possible.

It is a bomb meant to corrupt the area around the destructive blast. Controlled explosion may be possible but would still cause a lot of damage because of the "evil magic radiation" right?

Waar
2014-09-17, 01:34 PM
I think that whould take a lot of technical knowledge in ancient lost technologies. I mean even if it was a normal bomb very few people in this world would be able to disarm it.


A fission bomb "should"/might be disarmed just by cutting it in half from to to bottom (half the radiactive material in a half sphere should/might not be enough for a proper nuclear reaction), but I'm no expert so don't try this at home :smalltongue:.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-17, 01:54 PM
None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
-The lich himself
-Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
-The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
- The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
-The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.


Then get one of them to do it. If the dude can't be trusted with the knowledge afterward, you whack him.

Also, I'd say that blowing a hole in the abyss is a bit more preferable to blowing it up in your backyard. It's not like corruption is going to change much there.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-09-17, 04:39 PM
Then get one of them to do it. If the dude can't be trusted with the knowledge afterward, you whack him.

Also, I'd say that blowing a hole in the abyss is a bit more preferable to blowing it up in your backyard. It's not like corruption is going to change much there.
They'd likely have an interest in doing their research off-plane. If they get killed doing it, bonus. If they don't get killed doing it, kill them when they return and burn their plans.

Stellar_Magic
2014-09-17, 05:16 PM
A nuclear weapon does not detonate when it's destroyed.

Tvtyrant
2014-09-17, 05:23 PM
" The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."

So if we are talking about a D&D Lich this doesn't work. If we ignore the "tiny items" designation then just have the Lich turn the Moon/Sun into its phylactery so that killing it would cause an extinction event.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-17, 05:23 PM
A nuclear weapon does not detonate when it's destroyed.

A plot device, however, detonates precisely when the author wants it to.

Lord Torath
2014-09-18, 07:43 AM
More details: The weapon is dormant. It was meant to be activated to destroy that region but something happened and it did not explode. So it is very unstable. Moving it or just being near it may cause its delayed explosion to trigger, killing everything around it and corrupting the area.

None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:If this is so unstable, be prepared to explain how the lich managed to insert his phylactery inside it without detonation.

Also, the ethics of teleporting the device to another location to detonate depends on that target location (assuming you can ensure the black mage won't send it to his rival's livingroom instead). If you could ensure that the device was "teleported" to a region of space far from any planets, there's no ethical dilemma. Detonating the device one Astronomical Unit (Earth-Sun distance) directly above the planet's north pole should cause no harm to anyone other than the lich.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-09-18, 08:15 AM
If this is so unstable, be prepared to explain how the lich managed to insert his phylactery inside it without detonation.
It became unstable later.

Rakaydos
2014-09-18, 04:04 PM
I'd try something substantially sillier, I'd pick it up (so it's treated as character equipment) and have a delayed spell cast on it that would trigger it in one round. Then I'd have someone cast imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on me and fail my save.

It's not certain if the delayed spell would trigger it while I was imprisoned, but if it did I would be impervious to the harm it caused. If the delayed spell was also frozen (so that it instead triggers one round after freedom is cast), we're still going to have the lich regenerate (potentially) inside the same prison I'm in, only to be immediately obliterated if he's ever released. Divinations could tell if the plan worked as intended to allow for the character's release.

That's not an ideal solution, as the worst case scenario means the right freedom spell could kill everyone within a big region. But hey, ending a campaign by building a statue of the nameless hero on the wrong spot (to throw off people trying to do this) would be a pretty cool way to end a campaign.

There's probably sillier solutions out there that wouldn't require the ambiguous rules to be interpreted in a way favorable for me. That's just what I thought of.

What if this IS the bomb? that is, the lich someow figured out how to respawn outside the Imprisonment his phylactary is in, then arranged so that if the phylactary is ever released, it would destroy whatever nation it was in when it was opened.

MReav
2014-09-18, 04:32 PM
This scenario make me think of The Lich from Adventure Time.

Bluydee
2014-09-18, 04:41 PM
Pull a Goku and teleport it to King Kai's.

Erik Vale
2014-09-18, 08:14 PM
*Thinks*
Evacuate the area, kill the lich, let his regrowth cause it to detonate.
Or just accept the civilians as 'acceptable losses' for the other groups not being able to have the chance to figure the thing out, that way they're not alerted by civilians evacuating.

Ravens_cry
2014-09-18, 08:37 PM
The worst case scenario is it's a gun-type uranium atomic bomb, as their simplicity make them prone to fail-dangerous scenario. On the other hand, their simplicity makes them fairly easy to disarm. Just remove one of the sub-fissile pieces of uranium. Uranium isn't actually that radioactive, so it won't kill you to do so.
Or heck, just teleport thing to a remote part of the world (or another dimension) and detonate.
One nuke going off is not the end of the world. Problem, freaking, solved.

sktarq
2014-09-18, 08:55 PM
put it down a mine. if it is more than a couple hundred yards deep (even horizontally) you'd be pretty much fine. Rock absorbs a huge amount of energy.

Alex12
2014-09-18, 09:16 PM
Interesting.
More details: The weapon is dormant. It was meant to be activated to destroy that region but something happened and it did not explode. So it is very unstable. Moving it or just being near it may cause its delayed explosion to trigger, killing everything around it and corrupting the area.

None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
-The lich himself
-Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
-The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
- The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
-The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.

Hm, that's tricky.
Maybe they could call on one of the demi-gods for help? I mean, if they made it, then presumably they know how to unmake them. Find a god who doesn't want the area the bomb is in to get exploded. After all, unstable nuclear-grade devices are bad even without a lich involved. If it's as unstable as you say, even a good storm might be enough to set it off. Which would obviously be bad.

Or they could try and lure the lich into range of the blast, keep him from leaving somehow, then threaten to detonate the bomb (which would both kill him and destroy the phylactery in one go) unless he either disarmed the bomb, made it not-a-phylactery, or disposed of it somewhere safely (Teleport it a billion miles straight up should do it).

If it's made of metal, you might be able to get a Rust Monster or druid or something to deal with it.



It is a bomb meant to corrupt the area around the destructive blast. Controlled explosion may be possible but would still cause a lot of damage because of the "evil magic radiation" right?

It's entirely possible to "disarm" a modern nuclear weapon by blowing it up with conventional explosives. Modern nukes require a bunch of controlled explosions going off in a specific pattern to compress the fissile material enough to undergo fission. If you disrupt that pattern by blowing it up from outside, you'll end up spilling radioactive stuff around and contaminating a much smaller region than the nuke would destroy. Gun-type nukes can be set off this way, but those are way less effective in general.
It's honestly pretty hard to convince a nuke to explode, even before you factor in that they usually have safety systems because nobody wants a nuke going off before it's supposed to.

aspi
2014-09-19, 10:37 AM
So, to recap the situation:

You want a phylactery that will explode with the effect of a nuclear bomb
You want it to be non-defusable
You have powerful black magic in your world


If you ask me, you're not doing yourself a favor with the whole nuclear-bomb-approach. As others have mentioned, it's actually quite hard to get a nuclear bomb to detonate, since they are designed that way... nobody wants one of them to explode by accident after all. You have the means to simply create a magic macguffin that will behave in exactly the way you describe and there is no need to actually make it a nuclear bomb! By doing that, you add nothing to the story (as far as I can see) and invite this entire line of argument which your players are likely to come up with as well. All this will do is cause frustration if they come up with ideas that you don't want to work.

Just make it an instable source of black magic (maybe the source of black magic that will contaminate the entire realm of destroyed) that they can't defuse and be done with it. Save yourself (and your players) the trouble of that argument if it isn't really necessary.

Ravens_cry
2014-09-19, 03:55 PM
Indeed, I was about to make it a similar point. If you have some Phlebotinum based MacGuffin of Doomy Doom, making it something that actually exists is going to make some players, especially the more knowledgeable ones, expect it to act like that thing. On the other hand, if you make it something fictional, you can tailor those fictional properties to the scenario you want without pulling people out of the world and story when you make a mistake.
And atomic bombs (as opposed to thermonuclear devices) have (comparatively) low limits on their yield because they are made of sub-critical pieces of fissionable material. They'd take out a whole, large, by quasi-medieval, low magic standards, city, (the largest was 500 kilotons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_King)), but an 'area'? Doubtful.

sleepyphoenixx
2014-09-19, 04:20 PM
Kill the Lich with a Thinaun weapon (CW). Then use one of the available methods to destroy the soul (BoVD has a few iirc). Problem solved.

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-21, 11:14 AM
I guess the atomic bomb analogy was a bad one since my knowledge on the subject is limited to "A big thing that goes boom" luckily my players are also that limited and they did not brought mechanical and technical arguments to the table.

The teleport it somewhere else and detonate it was also the idea and they asked a High priest to that. Now that religion is the oficial one and next session they will have to fight a horde of Mutant zombie demons with radioactive and corrupting powers. :smallbiggrin: (Who said teleport it to hell and detonate would be consequence free?)



" The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items."

So if we are talking about a D&D Lich this doesn't work. If we ignore the "tiny items" designation then just have the Lich turn the Moon/Sun into its phylactery so that killing it would cause an extinction event.

The moon is not a object. And a bomb is nothing but a big box:

https://keytoann.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/littleboysch.jpg?w=450&h=215


If this is so unstable, be prepared to explain how the lich managed to insert his phylactery inside it without detonation.

Also, the ethics of teleporting the device to another location to detonate depends on that target location (assuming you can ensure the black mage won't send it to his rival's livingroom instead). If you could ensure that the device was "teleported" to a region of space far from any planets, there's no ethical dilemma. Detonating the device one Astronomical Unit (Earth-Sun distance) directly above the planet's north pole should cause no harm to anyone other than the lich.

One reason: Magic!

The idea of corrupting magical radiation floating in the space near our planet does not sound like a good idea to me.


put it down a mine. if it is more than a couple hundred yards deep (even horizontally) you'd be pretty much fine. Rock absorbs a huge amount of energy.

Good idea but since I'm evil i whould just make the corrupting magical energy create radioative golems made of stone and gems.



So, to recap the situation:

You want a phylactery that will explode with the effect of a nuclear bomb
You want it to be non-defusable
You have powerful black magic in your world


If you ask me, you're not doing yourself a favor with the whole nuclear-bomb-approach. As others have mentioned, it's actually quite hard to get a nuclear bomb to detonate, since they are designed that way... nobody wants one of them to explode by accident after all. You have the means to simply create a magic macguffin that will behave in exactly the way you describe and there is no need to actually make it a nuclear bomb! By doing that, you add nothing to the story (as far as I can see) and invite this entire line of argument which your players are likely to come up with as well. All this will do is cause frustration if they come up with ideas that you don't want to work.

Just make it an instable source of black magic (maybe the source of black magic that will contaminate the entire realm of destroyed) that they can't defuse and be done with it. Save yourself (and your players) the trouble of that argument if it isn't really necessary.


I guess I should have said they were MAD Demi-gods trying to kill each other. If the whole world burns in the process they simply do not care.


Indeed, I was about to make it a similar point. If you have some Phlebotinum based MacGuffin of Doomy Doom, making it something that actually exists is going to make some players, especially the more knowledgeable ones, expect it to act like that thing. On the other hand, if you make it something fictional, you can tailor those fictional properties to the scenario you want without pulling people out of the world and story when you make a mistake.
And atomic bombs (as opposed to thermonuclear devices) have (comparatively) low limits on their yield because they are made of sub-critical pieces of fissionable material. They'd take out a whole, large, by quasi-medieval, low magic standards, city, (the largest was 500 kilotons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_King)), but an 'area'? Doubtful.

Wow... I'm speechless. I feel so dumb. I guess I should have used "Mass destruction artifact created by mad demi-god that corrupts all around its explosion radius" instead of "Atomic bomb like artifact".

Traab
2014-09-21, 11:26 AM
Teleport it to the tomb of horrors. Noone will be able to notice any change if it goes off there.

Lord Torath
2014-09-21, 05:15 PM
The idea of corrupting magical radiation floating in the space near our planet does not sound like a good idea to me.Nah, it'd never get through the planet's magnetosphere. Plus, the solar wind would push it out into interstellar space before it could do any harm. :smalltongue:

I suppose it depends on what cosmology you're using. If you're using something like real world cosmology, there's nothing up there to corrupt. And the "background" cosmic radiation is worse than anything a nuclear weapon can unleash. If you're using spelljammer-esque cosmology, detonating the device three-quarters of the way to the crystal sphere directly below the sun's "south pole" would put it in such a location that, even assuming the cloud of corruption was the size of the entire earth, the odds of anything ever going through it are infinitesimal. All the traffic, and thus all the activity of space denizens that prey on that traffic, occurs near the ecliptic, which is where all the planets are. Of course, depending on the DM, Probability has been known to service Drama on occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

Still, it sounds like things turned out more or less according to plan. Well, your plan, anyway. :smallwink:

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-22, 01:03 PM
Nah, it'd never get through the planet's magnetosphere. Plus, the solar wind would push it out into interstellar space before it could do any harm. :smalltongue:

I suppose it depends on what cosmology you're using. If you're using something like real world cosmology, there's nothing up there to corrupt. And the "background" cosmic radiation is worse than anything a nuclear weapon can unleash. If you're using spelljammer-esque cosmology, detonating the device three-quarters of the way to the crystal sphere directly below the sun's "south pole" would put it in such a location that, even assuming the cloud of corruption was the size of the entire earth, the odds of anything ever going through it are infinitesimal. All the traffic, and thus all the activity of space denizens that prey on that traffic, occurs near the ecliptic, which is where all the planets are. Of course, depending on the DM, Probability has been known to service Drama on occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html).

Still, it sounds like things turned out more or less according to plan. Well, your plan, anyway. :smallwink:

Well there is stuff living in the dark corners of space that are best left alone:

http://www.goominet.com/uploads/tx_cenostripviewer/uI10.starspawn.jpg

Eldritch abominations are bad enough the way they are. They don't need to become mutant eldritch abominations. :smalltongue:

Wardog
2014-09-22, 04:57 PM
How big is it? They could do one of the following:
My favorite solution? Incapacitate the lich (using antimagic shenanigans as appropriate), and strap him to his phylactery-bomb (or at least within the blast radius). Tell him that if he wants to survive, he must tell the PCs how to defuse the bomb. If the bomb detonates, the lich is destroyed forever. If the bomb doesn't detonate, tell the lich he gets to live in prison or have some chance at continuing his existence. You could also try Mindraping or Probe Thoughts-ing* the lich if he won't tell you.


No, what you want to do is incapacitate the lich and strap him to the phylactery-bomb, then gate/portal/teleport them into the Abyss, and detonate it. While making an appropriately cheesy one-liner, like "You're fired! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3Kyv_iaNs)"

Mastikator
2014-09-23, 06:13 AM
None of the PCs are Magic users. Since it is a low magic world the only people capable of doing the teleport it somewhere else and detonate it thing(a very unethical thing if think about it) Are:
-The lich himself
-Black mages who are evil but powerful spellcasters.
-The archmages, leaders of cabals that control the number of mages around the world who have their own agenda and if they ever entered in contact with such powerful magical artifact they would likely try to copy it and mass produce it later.
- The demi-gods themselves who created the "bomb" to kill each other.
-The high priests of the temples who would try to use that as excuse to make their religion the official religion and with that gain a lot of political power.


I'd just get one of those to deal with it, the archmages and high priests seem far less dangerous than the lich. The black mages and demi-gods are probably dangerous even to approach though

It's unclear that the archmages actually could replicate the bomb if they had it in their possession, though they might be able to defuse it and use its parts for lesser artifacts.
The priests making their religion the official religion? I don't see the problem, unless it's some kind of malicious religion.

From what you say it seems that even fiddling with the bomb might set it off, so it might actually be worse to try to stop the bomb than to let the Lich roam free. That's why I'd contact someone who's actually capable of handling the situation.

You've basically taken a very tricky situation and given it to PCs not remotely equipped to deal with it.

Psyren
2014-09-23, 08:28 AM
If the players want to kill the Lich emperor who is terrorizing the realm they will destroy a big part of it in the process.

Here's a thought - what if the realm being terrorized simply agrees that this is an acceptable sacrifice to remove such a vile immortal being from power for good?

Obviously the heroes would try to evacuate the area as much as possible and take the bomb-lactery to the most deserted area they can, but if you truly make the casualties unavoidable they cease to be evil.

Mastikator
2014-09-23, 08:46 AM
Here's a thought - what if the realm being terrorized simply agrees that this is an acceptable sacrifice to remove such a vile immortal being from power for good?

Obviously the heroes would try to evacuate the area as much as possible and take the bomb-lactery to the most deserted area they can, but if you truly make the casualties unavoidable they cease to be evil.

While your forces are focused on evacuation the Lich goes on a rampage killing spree against unguarded subjects killing more than the bomb would've.

Psyren
2014-09-23, 08:53 AM
While your forces are focused on evacuation the Lich goes on a rampage killing spree against unguarded subjects killing more than the bomb would've.

Why would the PCs be doing that? That's a ludicrous waste of resources; NPCs can evacuate just fine. Get the town mayor or the resistance leader to coordinate that while the PCs keep Xykon contained.

Mastikator
2014-09-24, 06:10 AM
Why would the PCs be doing that? That's a ludicrous waste of resources; NPCs can evacuate just fine. Get the town mayor or the resistance leader to coordinate that while the PCs keep Xykon contained.

Assuming they could keep the lich contained. The lich is an emperor after all. The PCs wouldn't just be going up against an immensely powerful spell caster, they'd also be going up against the armed forces of the realm. Unless the PCs are on par with the lich in terms of individual power and social influence, the task of defeating the lich is insurmountable.

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-24, 06:16 AM
I'd just get one of those to deal with it, the archmages and high priests seem far less dangerous than the lich. The black mages and demi-gods are probably dangerous even to approach though

It's unclear that the archmages actually could replicate the bomb if they had it in their possession, though they might be able to defuse it and use its parts for lesser artifacts.
The priests making their religion the official religion? I don't see the problem, unless it's some kind of malicious religion.

From what you say it seems that even fiddling with the bomb might set it off, so it might actually be worse to try to stop the bomb than to let the Lich roam free. That's why I'd contact someone who's actually capable of handling the situation.

You've basically taken a very tricky situation and given it to PCs not remotely equipped to deal with it.

Well it is kind of a Dark fantasy(I don't really like that world because everybody have been abusing of it latter) So yeah all the gods are at best neutral and all the priests are evil. They use religion to get money from the followers and the gods give them powers cause the more followers they have the more faith energy(that they need to feed on to survive) they will acquire.

So yeah the High priest they choose is a fat greedy bastard who distorts the writings of the Goddess of healing to gain power, money and influence. And he just got more of it.

But it is true both the High priests and the archmages (who are insane because of magic that is also corrupted and kind of evil) are safer choices.

I know and that is why it is fun. And they are the ones responsible for putting themselves in that situation.


Here's a thought - what if the realm being terrorized simply agrees that this is an acceptable sacrifice to remove such a vile immortal being from power for good?

Obviously the heroes would try to evacuate the area as much as possible and take the bomb-lactery to the most deserted area they can, but if you truly make the casualties unavoidable they cease to be evil.

Because the place is not that large and a big chuck of the continent is already a wasteland because of the demi god war in the north so where are you planning to put all that human waste refugees?

Imagine in real life, a entire population of a country. All of them losing home, job and rights. Having to live as a favor in another place where they will be discriminated and segregated. There will not be jobs for everybody and the jobs available will be very bad. So many will turn to crime. Who in their right mind would accept the refugees to live in their realm?

DigoDragon
2014-09-24, 08:14 AM
This scenario make me think of The Lich from Adventure Time.

I had recently started playing Fallout 3. This thread suddenly took on a new level for me. :smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2014-09-24, 11:56 AM
Assuming they could keep the lich contained. The lich is an emperor after all. The PCs wouldn't just be going up against an immensely powerful spell caster, they'd also be going up against the armed forces of the realm. Unless the PCs are on par with the lich in terms of individual power and social influence, the task of defeating the lich is insurmountable.

Well if they can't win against the lich himself anyway, isn't the question of dealing with its phylactery purely academic then?

It's like worrying about trying to find space on your wall to mount a dire lion's head when you're a level 1 commoner armed with a twig.



Because the place is not that large and a big chuck of the continent is already a wasteland because of the demi god war in the north so where are you planning to put all that human waste refugees?

Imagine in real life, a entire population of a country. All of them losing home, job and rights. Having to live as a favor in another place where they will be discriminated and segregated. There will not be jobs for everybody and the jobs available will be very bad. So many will turn to crime. Who in their right mind would accept the refugees to live in their realm?

Without getting into real-world politics - when has "they might not want us there" ever deterred refugees fleeing a significant disaster?

Even assuming the fallout from this thing is indeed so bad that the entire population has to move, and that they know that ahead of time - if the alternative is dying anyway at the angry lich's hands, many will roll the dice on freedom.

Lord Haart
2014-09-24, 04:37 PM
On a side note, this lich is freakin' stupid. Like, intelligence 8 post-template. Sorcerers these days…
When you decide to exist indefinitely, respawning no matter what and having nothing to fear from any kind of opposition that isn't either extremely high-level or optimised, with a single caveat of all of it going away if you fail to keep a single little item intact, you do not, i repeat, YOU DO NOT bet on assumptions like "every being that ever arises in this world or the next will be aware of the bomb's destructive potential and absolutely unwilling to risk it". I'm not talking about all the ways to avoid countryside blowing up which were discussed in this thread; i'm talking about the fact that world is rife with madmen, deities, evil races and evil individuals, kenders, elves, trolls, fanatics willing to crush some eggs in order to get rid of you, avengers who won't care how many beings you hold hostage, people with pool impulse control, people with poor memory and/or poor attention to whom the connection between "boom" and "big red button" won't occur until they press it… The list goes on and on, and assuming none of those will ever happen to be amongst your enemies is highly dumb.
And you do not, under any circumstances, decide that "item that provides me with eternal immortality and near-inkillability for as long as it is not destroyed" and "item that self-destructs during proper execution of its main designated function, which is easy to trigger, easily recognisable and widely known" combine well. You know, i retract my statement about intelligence 8; int 4 post-template sounds a bit more like it.



All that being said, leading the world to mistakenly believe the bomb is your phylactery can lead to a good laugh.

Mastikator
2014-09-25, 01:29 AM
Well if they can't win against the lich himself anyway, isn't the question of dealing with its phylactery purely academic then?

It's like worrying about trying to find space on your wall to mount a dire lion's head when you're a level 1 commoner armed with a twig.

Yes exactly. That's what I'm saying. The DM has set up a situation where the only ones who are able to deal with the BBEG is a few evil gandalf NPCs. The PCs roles isn't to deal with the emperor but to choose which NPC becomes the new emperor, possibly gaining favor.

Or just go on a suicide mission to destroy the phylactery and become an even bigger villain than the emperor.

daremetoidareyo
2014-09-25, 05:23 PM
Set the rules for the bomb. What amount of tampering makes it go off. Build a way for PCs to get at these rules (adventure time!). Then let them figure it out. Thats what you want anyway.