Opinion on item

[Dezea]

Hey guys,

One my player, a Swashbuckler, would like to buy this items : http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cape-of-feinting

Now, it seems to me this is absolutely imbalanced, to the point it could broke any encounter, for a mere 14K gold.

Have you ever faced the use of this item on a Swashbuckler ? Did you need to balance it ? And if you did, how ? I Was thinking on a save, 10+1/2 swash lvl + Cha to counter the daze effect.

Thanks for your advices !

[jjcrpntr]

The Dazed part may be a bit much considering how cheap it is. Even if you're fighting something high level you could chain daze the creature for 3 rounds.

I've never used this item or seen a player that uses it. But ya that daze effect could be breaking. If you succeed on your roll you could basically give your party 3 rounds of beating on a creature where it can't fight back.

[Hamste]

...imbalanced? You are giving up you entire attack to stop one opponent from doing actions and making them flat footed with limited use. It is ok simply for its use against single strong enemies but I don't find it that amazing. Against a boss it is great but they still have to deal with the other challenges bosses present like minions.

[Dezea]

...imbalanced? You are giving up you entire attack to stop one opponent from doing actions and making them flat footed with limited use. It is ok simply for its use against single strong enemies but I don't find it that amazing. Against a boss it is great but they still have to deal with the other challenges bosses present like minions.

That ability doesn't even cost panache.
I could seriously see a lvl 8 party taking on a lvl 20, getting him in an infinite loop of daze, no save. Heck, the poor guy doesn't even get to keep his dext to AC...

(Of course, I'm not talking about a god wizard contingency loaded.)

[tyckspoon]

The Dazed part may be a bit much considering how cheap it is. Even if you're fighting something high level you could chain daze the creature for 3 rounds.

I've never used this item or seen a player that uses it. But ya that daze effect could be breaking. If you succeed on your roll you could basically give your party 3 rounds of beating on a creature where it can't fight back.

It's worse than that, if I'm reading the item and the Swashbuckler correctly - the item upgrades the Swashbuckler's Superior Feint deed. That's a passive effect, and does not require the Swashbuckler to actually use the item's /day activations. Superior Feint is not limited in use; the Swashbuckler can do it as much as he desires for as long as he desires as long as he has not spent all of his Panache. The kind of silly/stupid part is that Superior Feint doesn't appear to offer a save or even use the normal rules for Feinting in combat; the Swashbuckler just says 'ok, I'm using my action to Superior Feint. You are now denied Dex' and it happens. And then the Cloak upgrades that to one of the most potent control effects in the game.. yeah, that could be a bit over-the-top, especially in a many-against-one-big-threat setup the game likes to encourage you to use.

[Dezea]

The Dazed part may be a bit much considering how cheap it is. Even if you're fighting something high level you could chain daze the creature for 3 rounds.

I've never used this item or seen a player that uses it. But ya that daze effect could be breaking. If you succeed on your roll you could basically give your party 3 rounds of beating on a creature where it can't fight back.

More than 3 round actually, the wording say Using the cape OR superior feint ability.

Superior feint doesn't even require panache, only a standard action...

[jjcrpntr]

More than 3 round actually, the wording say Using the cape OR superior feint ability.

Superior feint doesn't even require panache, only a standard action...

ya missed that part I have to agree I think that makes it silly stupid. I'd homerule a save of sorts to negate the daze.

[Dezea]

ya missed that part I have to agree I think that makes it silly stupid. I'd homerule a save of sorts to negate the daze.

Yeah, that's what I'm wantoing to do...
What would you make it tho ?

[Vhaidara]

Ideas
1. Use 2 enemies. Kill him with the other one.
2. Ranged combatants
3. Disable him with magic
4. Daze immune enemies.

[Dezea]

Ideas
1. Use 2 enemies. Kill him with the other one.
2. Ranged combatants
3. Disable him with magic
4. Daze immune enemies.

This is the matter...I don't want to have, in a 5 player party, to build my encounter around a 14k gold items. This would be the exact definition of blatant imbalance to me "Forcing the DM to stop building encounter around the diverse strenght of the party, but struggling to find a way to cancel a single ability / items / Skills..."

And I rather simply nerf the items, while making it still playable. (I'm thinking on DC 10+1/2 lvl + Cha or Staggered), instead of trying to make his new toy always useless, by making him face only daze immune enemy...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Single enemies aren't really a challenge anyway most of the time, because action economy trumps pretty much everything. Any boss that's strong enough to take on a 5 man party on his own can get daze immunity without it being much of a stretch. Or he could just avoid melee.

This sounds a lot like a case of "mundanes can't have nice things" to me. That may not be your intention, but this isn't all that overpowered in the grand scheme of things. On his own it just means the Swashbuckler can stalemate a single enemy. That's a nice effect, sure, but it won't really break anything that a competent spellcaster can't already break better.

[Psyren]

It says it's a feint - just use the regular feinting DC. Done.

Also: "When feinting against a non-humanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a creature lacking an Intelligence score, it's impossible. "

[Vhaidara]

What Phoenix said. Single enemies are a bad idea. My groups routinely can take individual CR+3 if we win initiative, and we are only mid OP, specifically avoiding things like uberchargers.

You don't have to shut him down every fight.
1. Not every enemy has to be immune, but if none are immune it's just as contrived.
2. It's an item, not even a class feature, that you're shutting down. Hardly the entire character

[Raven777]

The Dazed part may be a bit much considering how cheap it is. Even if you're fighting something high level you could chain daze the creature for 3 rounds.

To be fair, this is not worse than most things spells can achieve...

[Psyren]

To be fair, this is not worse than most things spells can achieve...

To play devil's advocate though - most dazing spells are mind-affecting, have saves, SR, and are not at-will. Plus the regular limitations of spellcasting like provoking and having verbal and somatic components.

[Dezea]

I do agree with you guys. There is way around this items.

Lot's of ennemies, daze immunities, flat out CC of the swashbuckler...

Fact is, I Know them, and I could use them if needed.

But I still find it absolutely stupid to being almost unable to build a solo enemy encounter anymore, because of a 14k gold items.
It's not that I can't build something else, It's more that I don't want to adapt everything to a simple magic items.

Let's just take the usual scénario : BBeg cleric CR+3 and a lot of his minions (Be it summoned monster or other minions, whatever) enter a fight with the party. Usually, all the fight would be about the party getting the proper momentum to unleash fury on the cleric, after CCing or dealing with the summon in a proper ways. It's fun, require tactical insight and a good dose of balls (if you allow me.)

Now, same fight, with a 14k gold items.

Round 1 : Due to astronomical Dexterity modifier and class bonus, Swash likely goes first - We'r obviously not talking about your epic level cleric, just your everyday "Something around cr 8" fight - Even if he don't, let's just assume he'll survive the first round of fight, the same way we'll assume it for the "Classical scenario". He just rush to the cleric, not giving a damn about opportunity attack or anything. He use feint, no save. Cleric pass his turn.

Party gang up on cleric - With him being denied dex modifier, for SA purpose - likely not giving a damn about the minion, and instead going on a full beating on your BBEG, who will just stand here not doing anything until he get down the "I'm a punching ball" road.
Incredibly fun, isn't it ?

Well, once again, this is avoidable. You could go with Daze immunities for all of your important boss, you could make it impossible to properly use the item but again...
...But why going so far for a 14k gold items, when you could just avoid the pain and flat-out change it ?


(Sorry for the english by the way, ain't my mother tongue !)

[Vhaidara]

Well, you just described how the fight works even without the dazing item. Everyone focus fires a single target, and it dies. SA will be no different because he'll be flanked out of his mind. AC will probably be no different because Clerics usually go in for low Dex and heavy armor. On top of that, Cleric is one of the best classes to give mooks to because of AoE buffs. How does the swash get to the cleric in this format?

M M M
M C M
M M M
M M M

He has to take so many AoO getting through the frontline. Further, Superior Feint comes online at level 7, so this is a level 10 cleric. Easily able to have minions and BFC. Further, it's a standard action that cannot be used on a charge, so if he's more than a move action away, he's not getting there in time.

[Hamste]

To play devil's advocate though - most dazing spells are mind-affecting, have saves, SR, and are not at-will. Plus the regular limitations of spellcasting like provoking and having verbal and somatic components.

Dazing spell metamagic is pretty good at it though, lasts longer most of the time and can hit multiple opponents.

[Psyren]

Dazing spell metamagic is pretty good at it though, lasts longer most of the time and can hit multiple opponents.

That adds a save even if the base spell didn't though. Granted, you would generally be targeting their weak save anyway , but at least it stops you from shutting down the BBEG automatically (who can be assumed to make the vast majority of his/her saves.) Also it requires the spell to do damage, which means anything that prevents that (like evasion or energy resistance or SR) will shut DS down too.

[Dezea]

Well, you just described how the fight works even without the dazing item. Everyone focus fires a single target, and it dies. SA will be no different because he'll be flanked out of his mind. AC will probably be no different because Clerics usually go in for low Dex and heavy armor. On top of that, Cleric is one of the best classes to give mooks to because of AoE buffs. How does the swash get to the cleric in this format?

M M M
M C M
M M M
M M M

He has to take so many AoO getting through the frontline. Further, Superior Feint comes online at level 7, so this is a level 10 cleric. Easily able to have minions and BFC. Further, it's a standard action that cannot be used on a charge, so if he's more than a move action away, he's not getting there in time.

Well, once again, i'm afraid you are proving my point when I say that it is indeed possible to deal with it, but that it has way too much impact on any encounter anyway.

Because let's be honest, you would NEVER, in any way, set up your monster this way. Taking the risk for all your mob to get hitten by the first aoe is tactically...pretty poor, to say the least.

Now, If I were the swashbuckler player i'm talking about (He is level 7), i'd likely lunge, go in front of the first mob, and feint, after activating my Quick runner shirt if i'm a bit short on movement.
Tho this would never happend in one of my scenario, because I would never take the risk to see my encounter getting stomped on the first stinking cloud / Grease / Random other aoe you really don't want all your mob to take in one turn.

And once again, I'll repeat myself. I'm not saying at all that there is no way around this item. I'm just saying that this item got way too much impact for the lvl you can get it at, and the price.

(Again, sorry for bad english)

[Strigon]

Look at it this way; a good sword or bow might be useful, to a point, in a wide variety of encounters. This cape is very useful in a specific genre of encounters (one or two melee opponents), and then only three per day.
Let him have his cape, and run it normally, but up the difficulty of your encounters to compensate. Let him get some nice utility out of the cape, but really, your encounters should be quite varied, anyway, so it shouldn't be game-breaking.

Another way to do this, is to give your characters more encounters; make him think very hard before he uses that cape! Sure, it might make short work of this ogre, but what if there's a hydra waiting just down the road?

If you really want to give it a save, though (which actually isn't a bad idea), I'd increase the number of times he can use it per day, maybe to five.

Edit: The point of my first paragraph is this; while it may be practically encounter-breaking in a couple types of encounters, for the rest it's practically useless. A +x longsword makes most combat much easier, but doesn't break anything; in the end, they're about even.

[Dezea]

Look at it this way; a good sword or bow might be useful, to a point, in a wide variety of encounters. This cape is very useful in a specific genre of encounters (one or two melee opponents), and then only three per day.
Let him have his cape, and run it normally, but up the difficulty of your encounters to compensate. Let him get some nice utility out of the cape, but really, your encounters should be quite varied, anyway, so it shouldn't be game-breaking.

Another way to do this, is to give your characters more encounters; make him think very hard before he uses that cape! Sure, it might make short work of this ogre, but what if there's a hydra waiting just down the road?

If you really want to give it a save, though (which actually isn't a bad idea), I'd increase the number of times he can use it per day, maybe to five.

Edit: The point of my first paragraph is this; while it may be practically encounter-breaking in a couple types of encounters, for the rest it's practically useless. A +x longsword makes most combat much easier, but doesn't break anything; in the end, they're about even.

I would agree with you if the cape actually allowed only 3 daze a day - Even If would still likely find it quite too strong for the cost - but for a Swashbuckler, it's an infinite use / day. "If a swashbuckler wearing the cloak of feinting performs the superior feint deed or uses this cape's ability, the opponent is also dazed until the start of the swashbuckler's next turn." (Emphasis mine)

Superior feint actually only require a standard action, doesn't cost any panache point, and doesn't have a limited use per day.

[Strigon]

Superior feint actually only require a standard action, doesn't cost any panache point, and doesn't have a limited use per day.

But, doesn't superior feint require a save, or an opposed attack roll?

[Dezea]

But, doesn't superior feint require a save, or an opposed attack roll?

None of them. It require you to "Intentionnaly fail an attack roll". (Wich shouldn't be THAT HARD to produce : D)

Edit : Added real wording :"Superior Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least 1 panache point can, as a standard action, purposefully miss a creature she could make a melee attack against with a wielded light or one-handed piercing weapon. When she does, the creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the start of the swashbuckler's next turn."

[legionof1]

Look carefully at the item in questions crafting requirements.

Cost 7,000 gp; Feats Craft Wondrous Item; Spells daze; Special creator must be able to perform the superior feint deed

This means that whoever makes these in your game world by is something like Swash 7/caster 3 with some crafting focus(barring early/alternate access flim flam). Now that to me doesn't seem something that would be a frequent occurrence. This to me sounds like valid grounds for purchase difficulty. Its strong and relatively cheap and therefore should be hard to get. I say let the player get it after some work and in the mean time slowly crank up the odds to the point where the player will be very grateful to finally have but it wont upset things.

On the other hand let him have it and house rule a save as in your first post.

I prefer option A and frankly stuff like this happens. players as a rule bugger up your game in some fashion no matter what. Adapt and move forward a smoothly as possible. This instance is just a little more glaring since it the printed material smacking you upside the head and not the the players conniving.

[Psyren]

Look carefully at the item in questions crafting requirements.

Cost 7,000 gp; Feats Craft Wondrous Item; Spells daze; Special creator must be able to perform the superior feint deed

This means that whoever makes these in your game world by is something like Swash 7/caster 3 with some crafting focus(barring early/alternate access flim flam). Now that to me doesn't seem something that would be a frequent occurrence.

You can ignore that requirement with a mere +5 to the crafting DC.

I agree with the OP - this item is a problem if there is no save attached. But at the very least mindless creatures should be immune since they can't be feinted at all.

[MightyPirate]

Or the crafter could take the +5 increase in crafting DC for not meeting the prerequisite. Take another +5 to enhance how quickly the item can be make and an 8th level caster can conjure something up with a 50% success rate and that's without cooperative crafting rules. That's just from maxing spellcraft and having an aiding familiar by the way, no specialization really needed.

I doesn't really make sense to me that this (and superior feint for that matter) requires no bluff check. You might also impose a 1/day limit per creature ala Antagonize. Or you could say it's only an intentional miss if they could hit the target in the first place, otherwise it's just a miss. My personal favorite is a reflex save vs 10+1/2 Swashbuckler level+ CHA mod and fluffing it as the enemy thrusting into the path of the blade intentionally to negate the feint. They eat damage (if the attack beats their flatfooted AC, otherwise their armor protects them) but it beats being outnumbered an dazed.

Seriously though if it's unbalancing just explain the problem OoC to the party and ask the player to use something else. If that fails then introduce them to your new house rule that all enemies will be granted Improved Sunder for free. Hitting players where it hurts (the loot) will get some attention. HP is easy to regain, allies can be brought back from death for a price but replacing magic items takes time.

[Dezea]

Yeah, crafting rules are really soft on players, it will only require a +5 DC

I quite like your idea MightyPirate, and the fluff around it is really funny : o

[grarrrg]

My personal favorite is a reflex save vs 10+1/2 Swashbuckler level+ CHA mod and fluffing it as the enemy thrusting into the path of the blade intentionally to negate the feint. They eat damage (if the attack beats their flatfooted AC, otherwise their armor protects them) but it beats being outnumbered an dazed.

Getting kinda meta in here...
Normal:
Swash: I attack you to deal damage you vile cur!
Badguy: You missed cause I dodged!

..."this"...
Swash: I attempt to intentionally miss him!
Badguy: Oh no you don't, I DEMAND that you stab me instead!
Swash: Curses! I actually hit him!

[Strigon]

Getting kinda meta in here...
Swash: I attempt to intentionally miss him!
Badguy: Oh no you don't, I DEMAND that you stab me instead!
Swash: Curses! I actually hit him!

Can I sig this?

[grarrrg]

Can I sig this?

Go for it.
I think that'll take it up to two people who actually sig'd me.

[Novawurmson]

Daze grants a saving throw of 10+1/2 character level+Charisma mod. Expend a point of panache for a +2 bonus to the save. Bada bing?

[Coidzor]

This is the matter...I don't want to have, in a 5 player party, to build my encounter around a 14k gold items. This would be the exact definition of blatant imbalance to me "Forcing the DM to stop building encounter around the diverse strenght of the party, but struggling to find a way to cancel a single ability / items / Skills..."

And I rather simply nerf the items, while making it still playable. (I'm thinking on DC 10+1/2 lvl + Cha or Staggered), instead of trying to make his new toy always useless, by making him face only daze immune enemy...

You already shouldn't be having 1-on-5 fights with any kind of real regularity without hedging and giving the boss extra turns anyway.

[facelessminion]

So... Why are you feeling giving a very limited status attack to a mundane, subpar class is a problem exactly? I can understand feeling a bit miffed about it, but still. Just build your encounters as if the swashbuckler were something actually dangerous now.

[BlackDragonKing]

I sort of assume since you have to deliberately miss an attack as opposed to...you know, just missing them, Superior Feint requires you to roll a successful attack and then do no damage when you miss on purpose to feint.

This reading makes the swashbuckler worse, but there are already so many things working against it in the rest of its class features the worse interpretation of its abilities is almost certainly the right one. :smallfrown: