[3.5] Looking for a way to Scry at low level

[Uncle Pine]

Hello Playgrounders!

Before I get to the real question, here is a brief summary of the campaign to make the question easier to understand:
"One day, the players all died and each one had a meet with the Death who kindly offered them to "play a game" with their own lives at stake. The players are now trapped in a d&d world but only one of them has memories of meeting the Death: simply put, this player thinks that the whole campaign is centered on him (and has been silent about it so far) while the others think that they're playing a normal d&d campaign."
The PCs aren't the only people who have been trapped in d&d: the same goes for the King, his Evil brother (a Wizard and the main villain) and many others who didn't show up yet. Both the King and his brother are aware of being trapped in a deadly game. After being defeated for the first time, the King's brother managed to flee to the capital and acquainted himself with an Evil Psion who's similarly trapped and aware of it. They now plan to locate and join forces with others like them to kill the PCs and finally accomplish the villain's plan (taking over the kingdom).

As I plan to reach the climax of the campaign around 9th-10th level, is there a way for a Wizard and a Psion to locate distant creatures when the only information they have is that such creatures come from a different Plane of existance prior 10th level?

[Segev]

The lowest-level scrying spell I know of is Necrotic Scrying. 2nd level necromancy, requires having the Mother Cyst feat. It allows you to scry on anybody you know of who has a Necrotic cyst.

Unfortunately, Necrotic Cysts are implanted more or less in person; the base spell is touch range, and higher-level ones are still only Medium. Even if you industrialized the distribution of these by creating skulking cyst infestations nation-wide, it wouldn't tell you inherently that anybody upon whom you are scrying is from another dimension.

But maybe this might spark some idea for somebody who can help you more than I.

[Troacctid]

Have them use magic items. It gives you more leeway rules-wise, and it's more interesting plot-wise to have them seek out an ancient artifact for their nefarious schemes.

[Brookshw]

It's possible with some clever locate object castings I suppose. They'd need some useful info likely to pull it off.

Edit: I should probably mention the range stinks.

[Uncle Pine]

Have them use magic items. It gives you more leeway rules-wise, and it's more interesting plot-wise to have them seek out an ancient artifact for their nefarious schemes.

You know, I was already thinking about making the Psion a Telepath. Now I'm imagining him approaching the PCs as a random quest-giver and asking them to fetch him a crystal ball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#crystalBall). It would be hilarious to use the PCs to fuel the villain's plan. :smallamused:
I still hope there's another way to scry at low level (maybe in some obscure supplement/web enhancement/wotc article/dragon issue), or at least a cheaper magic item. I know that the crystal ball is a bit overpriced, but 42.000 gp is still a ton of gold at low levels.

[Segev]

The hazard with asking them to find a crystal ball for him is that, since it's so valuable, the PCs - controlled by the players - may decide to keep it.

[Uncle Pine]

Yeah that might be a problem and is one of the reasons I'm looking for alternatives.

[Troacctid]

Do sphinxes exist in this world? Gynosphinxes can cast Legend Lore as a spell-like ability. Your villain could seek out the legendary sphinx and engage it in a contest of riddles in exchange for information.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Arguably, a Scrying Shard (MiC) can do this. It's VERY ambiguous, though, and I'd lean on the side of no.

[Segev]

Yeah that might be a problem and is one of the reasons I'm looking for alternatives.

Maybe the one he has his eye on can only be used by people from another dimension, so if they try to sell it, they're told it's a fake. If they use it, they can, of course, which should be...odd. And if they give it to the psion because it's the only way to get paid, then he gets what he wants.

Have the wizard take Mother Cyst and offer them each an enchantment. He puts Necrotic Cyst on them, and he also puts some long-duration buff on them (no specific suggestions here, but I'm sure the boards can think of something). He uses Necrotic Scrying to keep track of them from there on.

If they keep the crystal ball and use it, then the bad guys know they're the ones for whom they search! After all, eventually he'll scry on them while they're scrying.

[nedz]

Can they not just hire someone to do this for them ?

Or buy a Scroll ?

I guess these depend upon how many times they want to do the scrying thing.

[Calimehter]

Can they not just hire someone to do this for them ?

This was my first thought as well. It doesn't have to be some lame "you get x gold and spend it so y happens" sort of thing either . . . unless you want it to be that convienient to keep the story moving. Having to go through an adventure or quest of some sort to get face time with a spellcaster can be a fun adventure in and of its own right.

[Urpriest]

I'm confused. You're aiming for 10th level, but Wizards can Scry from 7th level onwards, so that's not a problem. Granted, Scrying would give a large boost to the PCs' Will saves if the guy knows nothing about the PCs, but Contact Other Plane (also accessible before 10th level) could give more info.

[Uncle Pine]

I'm confused. You're aiming for 10th level, but Wizards can Scry from 7th level onwards, so that's not a problem. Granted, Scrying would give a large boost to the PCs' Will saves if the guy knows nothing about the PCs, but Contact Other Plane (also accessible before 10th level) could give more info.

Sorry, I should've been clearer: I know Scrying, as a 4th level spell, can be used from 7th level. However, waiting until 7th level would take a while (PCs are currently 2nd level) and I was hoping I'd be able to find an "early method" so that I can start using NPCs from the "real life" as recurring/one-shot enemies as soon as possible.



Arguably, a Scrying Shard (MiC) can do this. It's VERY ambiguous, though, and I'd lean on the side of no.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way, both RAW and RAI.


Maybe the one he has his eye on can only be used by people from another dimension, so if they try to sell it, they're told it's a fake. If they use it, they can, of course, which should be...odd. And if they give it to the psion because it's the only way to get paid, then he gets what he wants.

Have the wizard take Mother Cyst and offer them each an enchantment. He puts Necrotic Cyst on them, and he also puts some long-duration buff on them (no specific suggestions here, but I'm sure the boards can think of something). He uses Necrotic Scrying to keep track of them from there on.

If they keep the crystal ball and use it, then the bad guys know they're the ones for whom they search! After all, eventually he'll scry on them while they're scrying.

These are both really neat ideas! I'll keep them in mind, thanks.


Can they not just hire someone to do this for them ?

Or buy a Scroll ?

I guess these depend upon how many times they want to do the scrying thing.

Hmm... A scroll of Scrying costs 700 gp. Paying a wizard to cast Scrying is cheaper (280 gp/casting) if you provide the focus (1.000 gp). This means that it would take 147 Scrying spells to outprice a crystal ball (147*280 + 1.000 = 42.160 gp). Even though the villains will probably be forced to wait for a 1 on the Will save (given that they have really few informations about their targets), 147 castings should be enough to locate a bunch of potential evildoers.


If no one has better (read: cheaper) suggestions, I think I'll go for the pay-to-Scry method. Thanks for the help!

[Darrin]

Sorry, I should've been clearer: I know Scrying, as a 4th level spell, can be used from 7th level. However, waiting until 7th level would take a while (PCs are currently 2nd level) and I was hoping I'd be able to find an "early method" so that I can start using NPCs from the "real life" as recurring/one-shot enemies as soon as possible.

Try spymaster's coin (Complete Scoundrel, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). Either give a bag of coins to the PC in some denomination they are unlikely to use (copper pieces? platinum maybe?), or have a confidant/patron give them a unique coin as a "membership token" of some sort.

If that doesn't work... use the Strahd method. Ensorcel one of their familiars/animal companions with one of those "see through the eyes of an animal" spells. Rary's telepathic bond + permanence scrolls might work in a pinch. Otherwise, maybe a figurine-of-wondrous-power item with a scrying option tacked on as a DM handwave.

[Vhaidara]

I recommend Crystal Ball.

However, I have a solution to the PCs using it.

By the time they defeat the wizard, he could have gone lich. Moreover, it can be recent. Liches are not explicitly skeletal, IIRC. Recently turned liches could, hypothetically, still look human. So, just before the PCs kill him, he curses the Crystal Ball. It is now a Crystal Hypnosis Ball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#crystalHypnosisBall).

[Uncle Pine]

Try spymaster's coin (Complete Scoundrel, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). Either give a bag of coins to the PC in some denomination they are unlikely to use (copper pieces? platinum maybe?), or have a confidant/patron give them a unique coin as a "membership token" of some sort.

I'll keep it in mind, although the real issue isn't scrying the PCs (whose location and plans are known to the villain): the problem is to locate other creatures from the "real world".


I recommend Crystal Ball.

However, I have a solution to the PCs using it.

By the time they defeat the wizard, he could have gone lich. Moreover, it can be recent. Liches are not explicitly skeletal, IIRC. Recently turned liches could, hypothetically, still look human. So, just before the PCs kill him, he curses the Crystal Ball. It is now a Crystal Hypnosis Ball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#crystalHypnosisBall).

The wizard is a human with the force creature template from Advanced Bestiary (thus an aberration, not a humanoid) and isn't really interested in undeath. He's only wish is to sit on his brother's throne, to put out the sun entirely bringing about an everlasting night and to kill everyone who opposes his plan (yes, this includes the PCs).

[Vhaidara]

Eh, the lich idea was more for keeping him alive after being killed. The Crystal Hypnosis Ball idea still stands, and could actually be controlling the wizard right now, giving you another BBEG hook. Like, say, the DM of this DnD world...

[Uncle Pine]

Eh, the lich idea was more for keeping him alive after being killed. The Crystal Hypnosis Ball idea still stands, and could actually be controlling the wizard right now, giving you another BBEG hook. Like, say, the DM of this DnD world...

The DM of this d&d world is Death itself at the moment, who has a Moon base on the other side of the Moon (because everything is better IN SPACE :smallbiggrin:).

EDIT: Yes, I plan on having them deal with Death itself after defeating this major villain. Yes, it will take some time for them to get there and I don't even know if they'll survive, but I had to set a "win condition" when I decided to host this deadly game.