Help with Hoplite Build

[Albions_Angel]

Hi there

As you can see from post history, I played a campaign last year and have played a few before that (a very long time ago). But what with rule changes (I think we played with 2ed or maybe even something that wasnt D&D when I was younger) last year was more or less like starting again.

Anyway, I still need advice and help building characters

I am playing a 1 day game this Sunday and its Greek themed. Lots of extra stuff in it that I cant really comprehend and dont want to get too bogged down in but I want to play a hoplite style character (shield and spear, short stabbing sword, maybe some field healing as the party lacks it) and I have to build it from the PHB, PHB2 and Complete books only. I dont mind it it strays into a little legionary territory but it looks like the party needs a bit of a tank or some healing. Gods are olympian so if you want to throw some cleric in there then Apollo would be my man for healing.

32 point buy, max HP level 1, playing as a level 10 char.

Please suggest builds. Otherwise I am going to get my ass handed to me.

I cant find a way to upload the sheet I was sent for those really keen to help. I can give more information about the scenario but its a one off event for me and the last in a whole summer campaign for them so the detail isnt all that important.

[Sian]

basicly impossible unless you go into homebrew or 3rd party as there aren't any way to use a longspear (which would be the proper choice for hoplites) and shield as rules are done. There is a couple of ways to do this, either by making the Shield 'handless' just as bucklers is, for a penalty to to-hit and/or prehaps Damage, or make it possible to use spears in one hand (only when paired with shields) with a feat

[Albions_Angel]

No homebrew I am afraid. Whats wrong with a regular 1h spear? I know its a lot shorter than a hoplite would have but at the same time, I am the only hoplite in the group (if I go hoplite) and we all know (we DO all know dont we?) that 300 was a piece of crap for not having phalanx formation for more than 3 seconds.

On the other hand, the Roman republic only misses out on the Bronze age by 100 years, and in this greek themed game a lone Legonary wouldnt be a bad thing. Any builds for a tower shield and short sword/javelin build? Again maybe with some healing ability or "Pandemonium" inspired support spells?

[sideswipe]

weild a small longspear and stomach the -2 penalty, a small longspear has reach and is one handed for a medium creature.

[Sian]

best class, from a mechanical point of view, by a long distance would probably be Crusader from Tome of Battle ... with Knight as a distant second, and the rest somewhere even further behind, tweaking Knight giving them a higher DC for their different things (say +class level instead of +½class level, or if not minding multiclassing prehaps +character level), should be enough to make it almost viable without jumping a mount with a lance on the side, or having a spiked chain.

[Extra Anchovies]

This touches on the thing that I feel 3.5's combat system is most glaringly lacking (besides, of course, a way to make it fun): spear-and-shield fighting. It also lacks pikes. However, the OGL-based Conan RPG from Mongoose Publishing has the pike as a weapon (can attack three and four squares away, but not adjacent or two squares away) and also has a feat that allows a character to wield a pike and shield simultaneously. It seems like it would be fair to allow a similar feat for longspears in vanilla D&D 3.5.

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks everyone for the rapid replies, but, and I had this problem before, I cannot use the books you are referencing. I am limited to PHB, PHB2, the Completes (Complete Adventurer, Warrior etc) and granted I didnt mention also the Races of books. No homebrew, no extra books, no DragonMag. I dont run these games, i have no say in their constructions and no idea of what I am doing.

With minimal googling I can find 5 or 6 homebrew centurians or hoplites, even 300 spartans and gladiator legonaries. But I cant use a single one of them.

I am asking for very specific help, I know that, but this forums is the best at what it does, and I have seen entire threads dedicated to one character and how different people would build their stats, feats and weapons differently.

I am asking for help in building a simple, fairly vanilla, tanky fighter-esk character, with either some form of spear-and-shield combo (though that looks unlikely re the majority of these replies) or towershield, shortsword and throwing spear (which I am now leaning towards more and more). Has to be some form of human (or half elf, half orc but preferably human). But I dont know if pure fighter would do that (from what I have read, no it wont, it will just die horribly), or if a few levels of barbarian would help, or if I should sink 2 or 3 levels into druid if they have some sort of aoe slow or bind, or if cleric would give me powerful healing. I just dont know.

I need to stand on the front lines on sunday, glittering in bronze, dealing death or taking hits or healing allies because from the sound of it, they are a well rounded team but got their asses handed to them in the last senario. Level 10, 32 point buy at level 1, max health at level 1, please, help me.

[Troacctid]

You're 10th level. You can easily afford an animated shield to free up both your hands for a polearm.

I'd go for a lockdown build. Knight 3/Cleric 7. Take the Strength domain to get Enlarge Person. At large size with a polearm and armor spikes, you threaten all squares within 20 feet of you, and thanks to Bulwark of Defense, those squares become difficult terrain for your enemies. Take Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, and use your attacks of opportunity to make trip attempts. (If Expanded Psionics Handbook is available, you can substitute Stand Still for Improved Trip.) Nobody is getting past you.

Edit: I guess that would mean using a guisarme instead of a spear, but close enough.

[Extra Anchovies]

You're 10th level. You can easily afford an animated shield to free up both your hands for a polearm.

I'd go for a lockdown build. Knight 3/Cleric 7. Take the Strength domain to get Enlarge Person. At large size with a polearm and armor spikes, you threaten all squares within 20 feet of you, and thanks to Bulwark of Defense, those squares become difficult terrain for your enemies. Take Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, and use your attacks of opportunity to make trip attempts. (If Expanded Psionics Handbook is available, you can substitute Stand Still for Improved Trip.) Nobody is getting past you.

Seconded; this is pretty much as good as you can get from core/complete/PHBII without making something overly complex.

[DMVerdandi]

Nothing is wrong with short-spear. Essentially you are making the right decision with cleric. Get a breastplate, and heavy shield. Also,as far as feats you want to pick up.

Cleric of apollo 10
1.Power attack OR Zen archery, Extend spell
3.Somatic weaponry
6.Peristent spell
9.Divine metamagic (persistent spell)

Now, I always recommend spontaneous domain casting. Gives you a little leeway in casting how you want. For example, if apollo is your god, and you don't necessarily want to spontaneously cast healing, now you could pick the sun domain or even better MAGIC domain and use spells from that one.


I said Zen Archery, as apollo IS the archer, and you could have the short bow as an option to use as one of your weapons.
Also, the divine magician ACF kicks butt as well. Drop one domain, and gain one arcane spell from divination,necromancy, or abjuration that you can add to your spell list.

If possible convince your DM to let your cleric trade in one spell from the cleric spell list for the spell Heroics, from the wiz/sorc list. Technically, its RAW that you can.





With this, your guy will be a monster.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nothing is wrong with short-spear. Essentially you are making the right decision with cleric. Get a breastplate, and heavy shield. Also,as far as feats you want to pick up.

1.Power attack OR Zen archery, Extend spell
3.Somatic weaponry
6.Divine metamagic
9.Persistant spell

Now, I always recommend spontaneous domain casting. Gives you a little leeway in casting how you want. For example, if apollo is your god, and you don't necessarily want to spontaneously cast healing, now you could pick the sun domain or even better MAGIC domain and use spells from that one.


I said Zen Archery, as apollo IS the archer, and you could have the short bow as an option to use as one of your weapons.
Also, the divine magician ACF kicks butt as well. Drop one domain, and gain one arcane spell from divination,necromancy, or abjuration that you can add to your spell list.

If possible convince your DM to let your cleric trade in one spell from the cleric spell list for the spell Heroics, from the wiz/sorc list. Technically, its RAW that you can.

Well, you have to take Persistent Spell before you take DMM, otherwise you're forced to apply DMM to Extend (remember, DMM only applies to one metamagic feat each time you take it). So switch the 9th and 6th level feats. You should also go with Power Attack at 1st, IMO. If you're playing with flaws, take any amount you feel comfortable with and make all of them Extra Turning. If you can't get Extra Turning into the build at all, DMM isn't that good. If you can fit even one in, you can have two Extended Persisted spells up at a time (one from today, one from yesterday; they last 48 hours). How about Divine Power and Righteous Might? Large size, +10 strength, BAB=caster level (with iteratives!). Without Extra Turning, you need 18 Charisma to even use DMM:Persist, but with one Extra Turning you don't actually need Charisma higher than 10.

[Greenish]

weild a small longspear and stomach the -2 penalty, a small longspear has reach and is one handed for a medium creature.You don't get reach from reach weapons not sized for you. See Rules Compendium page 150 (or maybe 151, I forget).

[Extra Anchovies]

You don't get reach from reach weapons not sized for you. See Rules Compendium page 150 (or maybe 151, I forget).

Monkey Grip a medium longspear into one hand? I'm not sure how to go about this. You may just have to accept the shortspear; since most of your damage will be from Str/PA, dealing one die type lower doesn't mean much.

[Greenish]

Monkey Grip a medium longspear into one hand?Monkey Grip doesn't work like that.

[Extra Anchovies]

Monkey Grip doesn't work like that.

Wasn't sure. It's one of those feats that seems fairly broadly applicable but is actually really, really specific and thus even worse than it normally appears to be :smallbiggrin:

[gorfnab]

How about back-porting the Phalanx Soldier Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/phalanx-soldier) from Pathfinder?

Or this handbook may help: The Spartan Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ejbomniqeac0m3d0s90is0rge6&topic=4963)

[Deadline]

Regarding Spear and Shield combo: You could ask to re-fluff the Kusari Gama (a 1-handed reach weapon in the DMG) as a one handed martial spear with reach and no bonus to trip/disarm. If you are sold on weapon and shield fighting, the Agile Shield fighter feat from PHBII will probably serve you well, and you'll want go with the Knight class.

The Knight 3/Cleric 7 build that Troacctid suggested should work very well for you. The cleric casting will add some healing and versatility to your character. You could even use the refluffed Kusari-Gama I suggested in conjunction with this.

[Greenish]

Regarding Spear and Shield combo: You could ask to re-fluff the Kusari Gama (a 1-handed reach weapon in the DMG) as a one handed martial spear with reach and no bonus to trip/disarm.That's not refluffing, that's rewriting.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

This touches on the thing that I feel 3.5's combat system is most glaringly lacking (besides, of course, a way to make it fun): spear-and-shield fighting. It also lacks pikes. However, the OGL-based Conan RPG from Mongoose Publishing has the pike as a weapon (can attack three and four squares away, but not adjacent or two squares away) and also has a feat that allows a character to wield a pike and shield simultaneously. It seems like it would be fair to allow a similar feat for longspears in vanilla D&D 3.5.

Mostly because spear-and-shield fighting is mostly formation combat, and almost all adventuring combat isn't. Dungeons just don't support eight thousand people standing in a large rectangle, and it would break the CR system anyway.

[thesilentx]

One Idea I had that might be kind of cool for you but needs some special interpretations of wording and I'm pretty sure goes to Dragon Magic (the book, not the magazine), would be warlock/cleric/Eldritch Disciple. The core principle of the build is use Eldritch Glaive (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/warlock.pl), as your "Spear", and have a Light Mithral Shieldas well as a Mithral Breastplate. You could do the entire thing warlock is you want, but if you go cleric and Eldritch disciples (Complete Mage p.53), you can turn your eldritch blast (Or in this case your eldritch glaive with reach) into a "Healing Blast" with a turn undead attempt that heals people instead of damaging them.
The special interpretations of the rules is that it never says what kind of weapon the Eldritch glaive forms, so you can theoretically wield the reach weapon in one hand.
Projected build
1-8: Cleric
9: Warlock
10: Eldritch Disciple
FEAT
H: Shield Specialization (PHB 2)
1: Phalanx Fighting (Complete Warrior) (Eldritch Glaive counts as a light weapon I believe)
3: Shield Ward (PHB 2)
6: Active Shield Defense (PHB 2)/Power Attack/Improved Shield Bash
9: Extra Turning

The other idea that you could do that would definitely work with your group is go Cleric and Stormlord (Complete Divine p.65) to become an avatar of Zeus.
1-5: Cleric
6-10: Stormlord
FEAT
H: Shield Specialization (PHB 2)
1: Phalanx Fighting (as long as a javelin is considered a light melee weapon)
3: Weapon Focus (Spear or Javelin)
6: Shield Ward
9: Power Attack/Improved Shield Bash

Or you could do straight Paladin with a tower Shield and breastplate, and use the feats that I've listed above.

EDIT: Eldritch Glaive technically forms a glaive, which requires two hands, that plus it's not in your list of books scraps that idea.

[Troacctid]

Eldritch Glaive is from Dragon Magic. It's not available in Core + Completes + Races.

[Curbstomp]

Build:

Knight 1 Feats: Human: Combat Reflexes, CL1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Spear)
Fighter 1 Feats: Fighter: Weapon Focus
Fighter 2 Feats: Fighter: Quickdraw, CL3: Hold the Line
Fighter 3 Stat Point: Goes to STR
Fighter 4 Feats: Fighter: Weapon Specialization
Fighter 5 Feats:: CL6: Travel Devotion
Fighter 6 Feats: Fighter: Improved Initiative
Fighter 7 Stat Point: Goes to STR
Fighter 8 Feats: Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus, CL9: Improved Critical (Great Spear)
Fighter 9


Note: Greater Weapon Focus can be replaced with Improved Toughness if you need the HP. Alternatively you can scrap Travel Devotion, Greater Weapon Focus, and Improved Initiative for Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave if you plan to fight lots of low HP enemies in packed groups.

Stat priorities for your point buy: You need a +2 DEX modifier, A dash of CON, and the rest for STR. INT should be an 8 or 10 depending on what skills you want. CHA is your dump stat and WIS does not NEED to be good either.

Equipment:

+1 (Masterwork) Bronze Full Plate (Details in DMG, but heavier Total of 9 to AC and Max DEX of +2) Ideally add Light Fortification
+1 (Masterwork) Wooden Tower Shield
+1 (Masterwork) Great Spear (adding more damage or to hit would be nice) of a specific metal. Cold Iron perhaps?
Belt of Healing
Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+2 or +4)


Note: I'd list more Equipment, but am unsure of your budget.

Summary:
This build works by using the Brace action as much as possible with its Two-handed Great Spear. Utilizing Travel Devotion and Improved Initiative will help this PC get into position and Brace. Hold the Line and Combat Reflexes will help you get extra attacks in a given round as enemies provoke from your reach weapon if they are charging or attempting to flee anywhere near you. Make sure you position yourself in front of your ranged combatants or in choke points. If you need full cover, the Tower Shield strapped to your back and Quickdraw will allow you to get it. You can always hold the Great Spear in your other hand alone as long as you are not planning to attack with it. When you no longer need the cover or AC boost simply drop the Tower Shield or replace it on your back if you have time. I would also recommend a backup weapon or two, but your starting gold was not listed. Javelins or a short sword are thematically good options. The bronze armor is thematic and lets you utilize your higher than +1 DEX. The gauntlets and belt are (hopefully) obvious in use.

[Curbstomp]

Not perfect I know, but I think pretty close to what you are looking for. Unlike the caster builds that initially occurred to me (like Duskblade and Cleric) this one can keep fighting all day long. Even in an Antimagic Field. If you get the chance to pick a buddy or talk to another player about it I would suggest a Dragon Shaman or a Cleric to be standing with you with their own reach weapon.

Also, you could substitute a level of Dragon Shaman for Fighter level 9. This would allow you to do the Healing Aura thing to get you and your allies up to 1/2 HP an unlimited number of times per day in 1 HP/round increments.

[justiceforall]

Another very simple option is to use a Longspear/etc, and take the Improved Buckler Fighting feat.

Lets you use a shield and a reach weapon at the same time.

[Sian]

Another very simple option is to use a Longspear/etc, and take the Improved Buckler Fighting feat.

Guess what you think of is Improved Buckler Defense, From CW ... Alas it only lets you keep the AC bonus from it if you attack with your off-hand, not if you attack with a twohanded weapon, and the whole image with a longspear having strapped on a dinner plate on the forearm doesn't exactly scream hoplite (or legionary)

[Gwendol]

You should take at least four levels of Knight in order to both get Bulwark of Defence and Test of Mettle.

As for specific build advice I recommend first reading Person Man's knight handbook, and then come back with more specific questions. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?109429-3-5-Person-Man-s-Knight-Handbook

[Pilo]

You can go with duskblade (PHB 2) and take the arcane disciple(Healing domain) (Complete divine)

As weapon you can go with glaive (if animated shield is available) and/or trident, which are better than spears and keep the fluff.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, I have a player with a trident wielding hoplite character in one of my games. The trident essentially has the same stats as the spear but is 1-handed.

[Curbstomp]

Yes. Trident would also be an option with my build, but I suggested great spear for damage. Mostly a matter of whether damage output is more important that AC.

[sideswipe]

Thanks everyone for the rapid replies, but, and I had this problem before, I cannot use the books you are referencing. I am limited to PHB, PHB2, the Completes (Complete Adventurer, Warrior etc) and granted I didnt mention also the Races of books. No homebrew, no extra books, no DragonMag. I dont run these games, i have no say in their constructions and no idea of what I am doing.

With minimal googling I can find 5 or 6 homebrew centurians or hoplites, even 300 spartans and gladiator legonaries. But I cant use a single one of them.

I am asking for very specific help, I know that, but this forums is the best at what it does, and I have seen entire threads dedicated to one character and how different people would build their stats, feats and weapons differently.

I am asking for help in building a simple, fairly vanilla, tanky fighter-esk character, with either some form of spear-and-shield combo (though that looks unlikely re the majority of these replies) or towershield, shortsword and throwing spear (which I am now leaning towards more and more). Has to be some form of human (or half elf, half orc but preferably human). But I dont know if pure fighter would do that (from what I have read, no it wont, it will just die horribly), or if a few levels of barbarian would help, or if I should sink 2 or 3 levels into druid if they have some sort of aoe slow or bind, or if cleric would give me powerful healing. I just dont know.

I need to stand on the front lines on sunday, glittering in bronze, dealing death or taking hits or healing allies because from the sound of it, they are a well rounded team but got their asses handed to them in the last senario. Level 10, 32 point buy at level 1, max health at level 1, please, help me.


you could play fighter 4/duskblade 1 (for concentration skill)/kensai 10/dwarven defender 5 (because your going for a hoplite, i would never play this otherwise)
you have a couple of nice low level spell buffs, enough feats to qualify, kensai give you the ability to get a changeable up to +5 bonuses on your chosen weapon. which for a small amount of xp can be shifted if needed.

i gave the level 20 build as a dwarf going dwarven defender, but if your just level 10 then just 5 levels of kensai.

and like i said, a small longspear (players handbook) will give you a -2 to your attacks but allow you to wield a one handed longspear without cheese.

[Deadline]

That's not refluffing, that's rewriting.

Yes, refluff would be to just describe the weapon as a spear. But some DM's may balk at the trip/disarm bonus attached to it. So I suggested a rewrite with the mods I described. My bad for not differentiating between the two. :smalltongue:

[Ratatoskir]

You said the Races books were allowed, what about the web enhancements for those books? The updated kobold gets slight build, which would let you use a tiny sized reach weapon in one hand without penalty. Throw in the knight class to pull aggro to you (well, with some enemies at least) and turtle up with your size bonus, higher-than-average dex, and natural armor piling onto your ac on top of that armor and shield bonus. Not very op, but would work well in a low powered game.

[justiceforall]

Guess what you think of is Improved Buckler Defense, From CW

That's the one, I didn't have access to books when I suggested it.


... Alas it only lets you keep the AC bonus from it if you attack with your off-hand, not if you attack with a twohanded weapon

No, but interestingly enough if you TWF with spikes or unarmed strikes it still does provide the bonus even if you hold a weapon in two hands if I'm not mistaken.

From the SRD:


You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

From Improved Buckler Defense:


When you attack with a weapon in your off hand, you may still apply your buckler's shield bonus to your Armor Class.

And odd interaction, but I believe one that works? In fact, now that I read both quotes next to each other, I think it works regardless - two-handed or TWF either way. You are still attacking with a weapon in your off hand, it doesn't make any distinction that the weapon has to be a discrete, separate weapon to anything else.

Whether or not its still worth it if it effectively costs you two feats (one of which has a potentially annoying 15 DEX pre-req) I'm not going to speak to, but the option is still there.


and the whole image with a longspear having strapped on a dinner plate on the forearm doesn't exactly scream hoplite (or legionary)

There's talk in here of re-fluffing other things, re-imagining your buckler as a larger shield is a very small leap to make. I'm suggesting this as a purely mechanical halfway point anyway, it still gives you a shield bonus, and lets you use a reach weapon.