Npc's Spellbooks as loot in 5e? A balancing mechanic?

[Glarnog]

I only have experience with some of LMoP, having not quite finished it yet. But I am wondering is the lack of spell books on NPCs a balancing factor of the mod or 5e in general. Are random loose scrolls suppose to take spell books place to keep Wizs in check? Or to keep party gold in check? I think selling magic items is suppose to be difficult. The same with buying them. Would the same apply to spellbooks in 5e?

[Fwiffo86]

I would think that a NPC spellbook goes in the same place you put non-consumable magic items. Thus, it isn't going to be found on Joe-random spellcaster the party takes out. But part of the villain's main treasure trove/goal of the adventure.

[Angelalex242]

That's illogical, though.

An NPC Wizard, main villain or not, has a spellbock. Flat out.

There's only so many times the GM can say "It was destroyed" before breaking suspension of disbelief.

Now, the GM might punish careless players who throw a fireball at the NPC wizard by saying it burned the spellbook...

But most of the time, he will not have such an excuse.

[archaeo]

Well, it's pretty easy to avoid throwing a lot of NPC Wizards at the party, if that's what you're worried about; an NPC Sorcerer or Warlock will probably be more dangerous anyway!

It's also entirely possible that most NPC Wizards are going to be fought at their home base, where they presumably don't walk around with their spellbook all the time.

Either way, loot/magic items will be in the DMG. In the meantime, just use your best judgement; Wizards never need to find another spellbook in the entire world in order to keep up with whatever party they're in.

[cobaltstarfire]

I think, NPC spellbooks may be useful to the party only if they give their wizard time to decode them. It's implied in the PHB that if you're trying to copy someone elses spells from their book you have to spend quite a bit of time and resources to decode it before you can use it. (2 hrs/level as well as 50 gp/level). Definitely not something you could do in the middle of an adventure (unless you're an elf I suppose, then during a long rest you can do your 4 hours of sleep and then dedicate the other 4 hours to cracking the spells in the NPC's book)...

So just because you looted the book doesn't mean you can get any use out of it easily.

So even if it was a balancing factor, even if you were picking up wizard books left and right, it'd still be pretty taxing to get anything out of them. Dunno what sort of worth they'd have to be flat out sold. Probably depends on how high level/rare the spells are or something like that determined by the DM.

[Kornaki]

I think, NPC spellbooks may be useful to the party only if they give their wizard time to decode them. It's implied in the PHB that if you're trying to copy someone elses spells from their book you have to spend quite a bit of time and resources to decode it before you can use it. (2 hrs/level as well as 50 gp/level). Definitely not something you could do in the middle of an adventure (unless you're an elf I suppose, then during a long rest you can do your 4 hours of sleep and then dedicate the other 4 hours to cracking the spells in the NPC's book)...

So just because you looted the book doesn't mean you can get any use out of it easily.

Just wait until the end of the adventure when you get some downtime. Obviously not as great for one-shots but in any longer-term campaign a well-stocked spell book would be incredibly valuable for a wizard to get access to.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well yeah there is that too, you could copy down what, 4 lv 1 spells at a cost of 200gp with a single day of downtime? (I don't know if I'm remembering right, downtime is at least 8 hours of work a day right?)

[Angelalex242]

Well, the wizard has to do SOMETHING with his money when the Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric are all saving up for Plate.

Assuming all that spellcasting cost of copying hasn't been handwaved, like it usually is.

[archaeo]

Well, the wizard has to do SOMETHING with his money when the Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric are all saving up for Plate.

Assuming all that spellcasting cost of copying hasn't been handwaved, like it usually is.

They'll be buying the expensive precious gems required for high-level casting.

[Beleriphon]

They'll be buying the expensive precious gems required for high-level casting.

Of course they are, or they're busy working on building that wizard's tower that they seem to always inhabit for now good reason.

[rollingForInit]

Another important balancing factor is the number of new spells available in the book. After all, the DM decides what spells are in there. Common Wizard NPC's that are killed could have more or less the same spells that the party Wizard already knows. Maybe there's one new spell here, one new spell there. If there have been too many dropped spellbooks, the DM can just say that there are no new spells to learn.

Then, when fighting a might villain, the DM could make that particular looted spellbook much more awesome by containing several spells the wizard does not have, perhaps even very high leveled spells that the character can look forward to being able to cast.

That'd be more fun and realistic than every single spellbook being destroyed in the battle.

[Logosloki]

If you are willing to generate a spellbook for your enemy casters then I see no issue really. Just keep it light on spells and have it written in the language of the opponent (sylvan for elves, etc). Also, keep it simple, all casters went to x school and have y spells if they are z level. This way you are only generating a few spellbooks. BBEGs and mini-bosses might have a couple of spells added in for flavour.

If you want to make it harder then they need to do an int test (d20+int mod+proficiencies) on the book DC=10+highest level spell in the book+the original owners int mod and proficiencies (so a level one caster book might be 10+1+3+2=16 for the DC) and must know the language it is written in. They only get one attempt on one book per day. The int test is to decipher the opponents writing and any cryptography they have used.

Don't say what spells are in there, this edition doesn't require a specific number of pages per spell level so you could say the entire book is scrawled with [language]'s script and various diagrams and magic seals and circles.

[Person_Man]

DMs who artificially deny Wizard players access to spells without having a conversation with them about it is just being a jerk. You're punishing them for choosing a certain class without telling them about it. And the restriction is based entirely on tradition, rather then any real need for additional balance, that other full spellcasters do not suffer from.

I'm not a fan of Polymorph, for example. But if my player really wants Polymorph, then we talk about it. "Ok, you can research it during our next down time, and you might find it on an enemy spellcaster where appropriate. But then you should expect enemy spellcasters to use it as well, and using it in a civilized area is likely to incite torches and pitchforks."

[cobaltstarfire]

I am kind of curious what in this thread makes you think anyone is suggesting denying wizards their spells?


Maybe I'm too accepting, but I don't mind having to hunt down and use downtime to scribe some new spells to supplement the ones I'm entitled to at level up. (I'd have a problem with all this extra DC stuff Logosloki suggested, but that may be more because I hate fiddly house rules that add lots of extra math and DC's to things).

If I wanted Polymorph I'd just make sure to pick it as one of my spells when those spell levels become available to me, rather than hoping I get lucky and find a scroll or spellbook I can scribe.

[Logosloki]

I am kind of curious what in this thread makes you think anyone is suggesting denying wizards their spells?


Maybe I'm too accepting, but I don't mind having to hunt down and use downtime to scribe some new spells to supplement the ones I'm entitled to at level up. (I'd have a problem with all this extra DC stuff Logosloki suggested, but that may be more because I hate fiddly house rules that add lots of extra math and DC's to things).

If I wanted Polymorph I'd just make sure to pick it as one of my spells when those spell levels become available to me, rather than hoping I get lucky and find a scroll or spellbook I can scribe.

I run a rules heavy group who like the fiddly things as well as more casual groups. In a casual group you would find the spellbook and as long as you know the language it is written in it is all good to go. Sometimes though even in the more casual groups I'll put protective spells on the spell book, just to throw the bones of a challenge in.

Also, I don't see why people try to make it so hard on the wizard, especially in this edition. I put it down to lack of imagination in encounter design since everything people seem to fear tends to be good on open plains when x has the advantage rather than actual set pieces.

[DrLemniscate]

Wizards already get 2 spells every level in their spellbook for free. That's already more than some other classes get for Spells Known, only exceeded by classes who have access to all their spells, and just need to choose which ones to prepare.

A Wizard's spellbook is his most precious possession. So a Wizard Villain isn't going to make it easy to find. He might not even carry it on his person. He could have it in a hidden compartment he takes it out of daily to prepare his spells. He might have it covered in Wards. He might even have it tucked away in a demiplane, or entirely encoded.

You should definitely give your Wizard's some spells, but they shouldn't feel like they are entitled to eventually have every class spell without any difficulty. Of course, if they are facing some villain with a very signature spell, it wouldn't hurt to give them access to 1 or 2 spells like it, Megaman style.

[ambartanen]

One thing no one has mentioned so far but seems kind of important to me is that NPC wizards won't follow the player rules for researching spells. If the party wizard gets her hands on the book of the defeated 8th level enemy wizard, there is no requirement to have at least 20 spells in there. Sure, a player would have that many but player characters are special. This enemy wizard might have as few as 4-5 spells written in there. Just make sure to include any spells they actually use (or intend to use) against the players.

Also, if the party is defeating wizards with any kind of regularity then they are likely to be from the same organization/school/whatever which, as rollingForInit pointed out, means they likely know nearly identical spells.

Finally, I'd likely make spells recorded in spellbooks somehow unique to their caster. Whether that's a personally designed cipher or unique bizarre notation, wizards can't just use someone else's book and need time and effort to decipher it, i.e. succeed on an Int check to realize what a spell's effect is before they copy it. They can still copy spells if they fail the Int check but then they have no idea what spell they are copying. Makes the linguist feat a lot more attractive to wizard characters which seems like a good thing to me (but I really like linguistics and feel like it should have a more central role in the game).

[cobaltstarfire]

Finally, I'd likely make spells recorded in spellbooks somehow unique to their caster. Whether that's a personally designed cipher or unique bizarre notation, wizards can't just use someone else's book and need time and effort to decipher it, i.e. succeed on an Int check to realize what a spell's effect is before they copy it. They can still copy spells if they fail the Int check but then they have no idea what spell they are copying. Makes the linguist feat a lot more attractive to wizard characters which seems like a good thing to me (but I really like linguistics and feel like it should have a more central role in the game).


There's already rules that take wizards each having unique notation into account. It's 2 hours per spell level and 50 gp per spell level. Explained as time/resources/ink spent deconstructing/translating/experimenting with the spell and converting it to notation and understanding that is useable by you.

[ambartanen]

There's already rules that take wizards each having unique notation into account. It's 2 hours per spell level and 50 gp per spell level. Explained as time/resources/ink spent deconstructing/translating/experimenting with the spell and converting it to notation and understanding that is useable by you.

Pretty sure those are specific for scrolls one wizard wrote for others to read, not for their personal descriptions of magical forces that they likely want to keep secret and aren't even trying to explain anyway. Maybe I am wrong though, reading other wizards' spellbooks definitely seems like one of those things left for the GMs to sort out in this edition.

[cobaltstarfire]

Pretty sure those are specific for scrolls one wizard wrote for others to read, not for their personal descriptions of magical forces that they likely want to keep secret and aren't even trying to explain anyway. Maybe I am wrong though, reading other wizards' spellbooks definitely seems like one of those things left for the GMs to sort out in this edition.


Yes, you are in fact wrong. It's on pg 114 about wizards spell books. When you copy a spell that you haven't written/researched yourself you have to decipher it and practice it until you fully understand it. Only then do you get to copy it into your spell book and become able to use it.

Of course the GM can do whatever they want, but if they don't feel like coming up with new rules, some already exist for them to use.