Help this pool lil' beholder survive

[Toliudar]

I have a PnP group coming up on an encounter with a beholder. The group has an optimized melee damage dealer, suboptimized druid and cleric, an archer and a blaster sorcerer. They are already at 11th level, and are likely to make mincemeat of the beholder.

I don't want to throw a lot of gear at it, or advance it too much - I'm looking for modest advancements, tactics, etc. that will help this be more than just another slugfest. The beholder has some control over its environment (disintegrate is a wonderful thing), but it is definitely an underground encounter, and no water, lake of fire, etc etc.

Thoughts?

[Yuki Akuma]

Fly out of reach of all the characters bar the archer and the sorcerer, fix the antimagic cone on the sorcerer, and blast the archer with Disintegrate beams until he's dead.

Beholders are quite intelligent. Play intelligently. :smallwink:

[Sturmjaeger]

Yes, use the beholder's ability to fly to it's advantage. Stay out of melee range by keeping as high up as possible. In a dungeon, that won't likely be very high, but all you usually needs to get 10 feet beyond the reach of the melee guys and you're golden.

Use it's Charm Person ray to bring those melee warriors over to it's side.

[Imrix.]

Any stalactites? Disintigrate the bases so they become bombs. Old trick, but still works.

[Edo]

Disintegrate out a chamber in the wall behind a foot of stone, with a single hole big enough to stick an eye through. Laugh at the archer from behind your 90+% cover. Telekinesis the sorcerer's spell components over to your side of the peephole and laugh some more. Don't even bother with diversity; just pick people up and hurl them a few hundred feet out of your darkvision range. There's no way they can break through a foot of stone to get to you, after all.

(If the suboptimized druid has a Transmute Rock To Mud spell on hand, or the cleric has Stone Shape, the tides of battle can be changed very easily. If not, this is one of those encounters that they should probably run away from.)

[PinkysBrain]

At +18 to listen the Beholder has a good chance of hearing them coming.

If he has his own domain constructed as the MM suggests he can simply wait for them to come flying up to him, then he comes out with his AMF cone active till they plummet to the ground, turn off his AMF cone (or look away if you allow that, the rules are a bit unclear on how that works) and blast them with his eye rays ... after that he can still move out of sight thanks to the fact of his flyby attack feat.

Thanks to flyby attack the beholder is a bit of a nightmare to fight in an environment with a lot of corners to hide behind.

Edo, they can still DD next to him and attended items use the saves of whoever carries them (telekinesis uses a will save, also you can only move it 20 feet).

[Sturmjaeger]

turn off his AMF cone (or look away if you allow that, the rules are a bit unclear on how that works) and blast them with his eye rays ... after that he can still move out of sight thanks to the fact of his flyby attack feat.

I thought it was always active. The beholder just has to close it's main eye to "shut it off," which shouldn't count as an standard action, I think, since it's just blinking.

[PinkysBrain]

I thought it was always active. The beholder just has to close it's main eye to "shut it off," which shouldn't count as an standard action, I think, since it's just blinking.
He can only open or close his central eye in any given round, not both.

[MuteVampire]

A question.... why not, instead of Disintegrating the archer, have it discintigrate the archer's bow? then it can just stay 10 feet up in the air and cackle as it attacks while keeping the casters in an AMF field. As people have said, this is his domain. He will have vertical shafts to keep people from just waltzing in, and if he knows this group is coming he can prepare a 20' tall cavern to kill them (or at least drive them off) in

If he's making a 20' tall kill cavern, he'd do well to leave a rather large peg hanging just over the entrance which he can Disintegrate to drop it on the only entrance to the room (this, of course, assuming that somewhere earlier in his maze he managed to nullify the archer by taking out the bow)

In the 20' kill room he can Charm the fighter, AMF the mage, and do many other mean things to the rest of the party while sitting out of range of anyone other than the archer (whose bow is broken) and the mage (who is useless without spells)

the only character with any chance to hit is the cleric, so the cleric would be the target of every offensive action the beholder had until the cleric had been killed dead, then move on to the rest of the party, who are in total rather useless and trapped in the room by a big chunk of rock

[daggaz]

Heh... I like the description about how they like to use their disintegrate beam to sculpt ellaborate burrows.

Have the party enter the chamber, it is pretty big. Around the entire edge of the ceiling, there is a crevice going up into the darkness. (easy spot check). Upon entering, the beholder flies up this crack. A few minutes later, any party members under the central part of the ceiling are crushed, as the entire ceiling comes crashing down (hollowed out above, beholder rays out the remaining connecting pillars).

[PinkysBrain]

A question.... why not, instead of Disintegrating the archer, have it discintigrate the archer's bow?
You can only sunder weapons and shields using a melee attack using a slashing or bludgeoning weapon (even with the ranged sunder feat you can't use spells).

[Borogove]

You can only sunder weapons and shields using a melee attack using a slashing or bludgeoning weapon (even with the ranged sunder feat you can't use spells).
while this is true, disintergrate can target items, and given the amount of hitpoints a bow typically has, will probably destroy it even on a successful save.

Edit: to clarify- I'm not seeing where it says you can't target a held object with it. You can certainly target a not held one.

[PinkysBrain]

It doesn't say a lot of things, but destroying carried or worn objects is sundering ... and the rules for sundering while not entirely clear for worn/carried objects in general are very clear for weapons and shields.

If you want some blah blah reasoning for it, the ranged attack of a carried object is too easily avoided altogether (with a melee attack you can force the opponent to move as you wish to a certain extent).

[Turcano]

Many people have mentioned the beholder's lair, and it should be emphasized that these lairs are vertical in nature. I would imagine them looking something like this:



_______ ______
/ \ / \
| | | Ờ | <--Beholder
\_ ___/ \ ___/
\ / \ /
| | | |
| | | |
\ \ / \
\ \____/ \
\______ |
\_ _/
| |
______________| |_____
______________________


A lair like that is a real bugger to get into without using magic (which the beholder would make sure of). Use that to your advantage. You could even go so far as to let the beholder get the drop on (literally) your PCs.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

A sunder is an attack action, not a cast a spell action.

When a spell can target objects, it can target any object. Note also that the Object saving throw the spell allows only affects carried objects and magic items. If it's got an Object saving throw it affects carried objects.

[Borogove]

It doesn't say a lot of things, but destroying carried or worn objects is sundering ... and the rules for sundering while not entirely clear for worn/carried objects in general are very clear for weapons and shields.

If you want some blah blah reasoning for it, the ranged attack of a carried object is too easily avoided altogether (with a melee attack you can force the opponent to move as you wish to a certain extent).I don't think so. Using an attack action to attack a held or worn object is sundering. This doesn't appear to have anything to do with targetting a held object with a spell, which seems to be explicity implied as possible by the text describing the (object) saving throw type (which distintegrate has).

(object)

The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

[PinkysBrain]

I disagree ... but your problem is then, what is the AC of the weapon? Only the sundering entry gives an AC, and that's only true for sundering and even then only for items you are not holding in your hands.

10+size modifier would be beyond silly.

[Midnight Lurker]

I'd tend to disagree ...
Then by the RAW, you'd tend to be provably wrong. Disintegrate spells have nothing to do with Sunder attempts. Accept it and move on.

[PinkysBrain]

That still leaves you with no AC to attack.

[Borogove]

That still leaves you with no AC to attack.This is true, and is presumably an oversight. Presumably you use the standard attack an object value (or possibly the one given in the desciption of the sunder action, which is slightly higher). I think it's fairly clear that the intent is to allow you to target a held object, though.

Edit: sorry Toliudar for creating an arguement in your thread.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I disagree ... but your problem is then, what is the AC of the weapon? Only the sundering entry gives an AC, and that's only true for sundering and even then only for items you are not holding in your hands.
Sundering a weapon has no AC at all, it's just opposed attack rolls.

Sundering a carried or worn object other than a weapon requires an attack vs. AC 10 + size modifier + Dex mod of creature carrying it.

I don't see why the latter AC cannot apply.


10+size modifier would be beyond silly.
Only because you forgot the Dex modifier.

[PinkysBrain]

I think it's fairly clear that the intent is to allow you to target a held object, though.
The original core rules no more explicitly forbade using ranged attacks with weapons against objects than ranged attacks with spells (or normal melee attacks without specifically using sunder for that matter). Yet later from ranged sunder it became quite clear that the intent was that it quite simply couldn't be done. IMO it is quite clear sunder was meant as the only way to attack attended items, and object saves were intended for targeted spells like dispel magic.

Disintegrate might be rare because it's high level, but consider for a moment what an acid substituted scorching ray (no save at all, object or otherwise) could do at low level if you follow this to the logical conclusion.

Shhalahr Windrider, those ACs are only valid for sundering ... sundering can only be done with a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. Either you are sundering and you can't use spells, or you aren't and sundering rules don't apply.

[Fixer]

[If I was a beholder....]

Disintegration is my tool. Skills: Craft (trapmaking) or Knowledge (architecture/engineering) would help create a layout that would benefit me and hinder my land-based opponents.

A room filled with columns and pillars and the floor covered in debris, preferrably dangerous debris (traps, sharp objects, caltrops). This makes flying by wing to be impossible for anything bigger than an owl (barring perfect maneuverability) while not hindering me at all.

Stay out of melee range and charm the melee fighters first. Send them against their allies and even the odds. Fighter-types tend to be easy to charm but difficult to disintegrate or stone.

If anyone changes shape to take advantage of the terrain, use the anti-magic cone on them to force them back into their natural shape. They will run out of shapechanges before we run out of antimagic.

I am superior to these legged land-bound creatures, make them understand this before they die knowing they had no hope. In the event they get lucky and turn the tables, retreat to higher ground and use anti-magic to keep them from getting to where you are (disintegrating anything they might throw up to try to reach you).

Non-casters tend to be the ones carrying the heavy treasure, try not to disintegrate them. Disintegrating wizards tends to cause less treasure loss but stoning them for later is usually better, just in case they have something useful.

Clerics and Druids are most resistant to our powers, so keep their magic suppressed and prevent them from boosting their allies. Use traps on them if possible. Telekinesis them into a high cul-de-sac or a deep pit to deal with them later.

Keep the eyes out for the sneaky ones. Disintegrate or charm them as soon as possible. They rarely carry treasure or have anything we can use and are only useful as servants or food. If you can catch a sneaky one out ahead of the party where the others cannot see, charm them and get them to set up camp and get them in their sleep.

[Toliudar]

These are terrific - thanks. And, to be honest, I don't mind the targeting a held object sub-thread, because I'm not clear on the rules myself, and it strikes me as exactly the kind of tactic the sorcerer will try himself at some point.

[Fax Celestis]

One of my favorite beholder tricks is to fly out of reach and wait for anybody with magical flying to fly up after me, readying an action to open my eye and focus on the flyer once they pass a certain elevation, thereby removing their flying capability and sending them smashing to the ground. Terrible fun, that is.

[Fixer]

The disintegrate spell creates a ray of energy. The mechanics are: ranged touch attack, Fortitude Saving Throw, Damage.

This information is important as well.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10- foot cube of nonliving matter.

Thus, when using a disintegrate spell against a hand-held item you must first make the ranged touch attack (AC to be determined), then the object gets a saving throw (the PCs if attended, its own if magical or the PCs is lower, no save if neither), then damage is applied (likely enough to disintegrate an object unless it is adamantine).

Thus, the only part of the problem here is what is the AC of the object for a ranged touch attack?

As a GM, I would rule you take the PCs touch AC without size modifier and then apply the size modifier for the object (Large for a normal bow) to that. This would make it hard to hit a vial, but easy to hit a bow. It wouldn't slow down the game (and as GM I'd veto any player attempts at arguing until after the game) and can be easily explained.

[PnP Fan]

topography topography topography.
tunnels running behind walls. Walls with eye-stalk sized holes in them, 99% cover, and voila, you've got yourself a sniping beholder! Make sure you've got multiple eye-holes so that your beholder doesn't get trapped.

[Foeofthelance]

I wouldn't worry about the archer too much. If he's the only that can deal at range, then he's the Beta target (Alpha being the Sorcerer) and is not likey to survive very long against a beholder going all out against him. Your biggest is worry is one of the melee types trying to stick something in the main eye. Least, that's what my party did the few times the DM tried them on us.

[Borogove]

The original core rules no more explicitly forbade using ranged attacks with weapons against objects than ranged attacks with spells (or normal melee attacks without specifically using sunder for that matter). Yet later from ranged sunder it became quite clear that the intent was that it quite simply couldn't be done. IMO it is quite clear sunder was meant as the only way to attack attended items, and object saves were intended for targeted spells like dispel magic.

Disintegrate might be rare because it's high level, but consider for a moment what an acid substituted scorching ray (no save at all, object or otherwise) could do at low level if you follow this to the logical conclusion.
Added emphasis mine. See, the problem here is that disintegrate has the (object) tag. Which means it can target objects. And that the object saving throw rules apply- that's what the tag means. The reason your scorching ray example falls down, is that scorching ray makes no mention of allowing you to target objects, where as disintegrate explicitly allows you to.

Edit:


As a GM, I would rule you take the PCs touch AC without size modifier and then apply the size modifier for the object (Large for a normal bow) to that. This would make it hard to hit a vial, but easy to hit a bow. It wouldn't slow down the game (and as GM I'd veto any player attempts at arguing until after the game) and can be easily explained.A two handed weapon is counted as the weilder's size, so a bow is medium. But otherwise, that's pretty much what I'd do.

[akira72703]

A tactic that I have used with beholders, they build tunnels in the ceiling of the lair they are in that allow them to move about above the heads of the party they are confronting. They would construct inverted/upside down L shaped murder holes in the ceilings connected to each other by a set of tunnels. They could get into them upside down and be able to look down with all of their eye stalks. They wait until someone comes under one of the holes and then the beholder turn upside and boom death from above with a single character being hit by multiple eye rays (3+) at once. Meanwhile the beholder after taking a full attack takes a 5 foot step back into the boot of the L, removing him from sight of the characters and then he moves to his next spot and waits again preparing an action to fire at the first PC that he sees. Rinse and repeat.

[marjan]

Except that would be surprise round and it would get only standard action which it can use to fire single ray. Still it is at least annoying tactics.

[The Glyphstone]

Beholders can fire all their rays as a free action once per round. It's not an attack action of any sort...they can even move and bite, or double move, in the same turn they use rays.

If you want to be cheesy, give the beholder Improved Flight. Now with Perfect Maneuverability, he can orient himself in any direction with no movement loss....and all 10 eye rays can be fired at an opponent "above" him. Tilt downward to "face" the ground, unleash a barrage of death at the party ahead, then look up again and get them in the AMF.

[Koji]

The previous ideas are great. Give the beholder ways to escape from the party if cornered and get in a superior position with cover and stuff. One idea might be to have premade tunnels that aren't QUITE opened up--the beholder gets cornered, he flips on his disintegration ray and opens a wall to a new passageway. He'd obviously know his own home.

IF you aren't averse to the idea, consider a beholder wizard. Even with a few measly levels, he gains access to grease, a ridiculously useful spell when you don't have to touch the floor. Give him a couple of scrolls of it and suddenly the fight is anyone's game. Spider climbing spellcaster's can't get to him, and he's got a very entertaining way to slow down or knock over the melee fighters.

[storybookknight]

Have you seen the "revamped" beholder over on Wizards?

The extant beholder suffers from many things, including low saves, mediocre hit points, and a vast number of "save or die" phenomena, and rules about the direction it's facing. The Wizards article addresses most of these - I like that beholder a heck of a lot better!

[Turcano]

IF you aren't averse to the idea, consider a beholder wizard. Even with a few measly levels, he gains access to grease, a ridiculously useful spell when you don't have to touch the floor. Give him a couple of scrolls of it and suddenly the fight is anyone's game. Spider climbing spellcaster's can't get to him, and he's got a very entertaining way to slow down or knock over the melee fighters.

Beholder wizards have a tendency to poke their main eye out, which severely cramps their style. What you're left with is a monster with a high ECL and what are essentially ten staves with unlimited charges. Not quite the ideal monster to add spellcasting class levels to.

[The_Snark]

Unless, of course, you happen to have access to the Beholder Mage prestige class. Sure, it loses lose the central eye and starts losing the other eye rays, but now instead of shooting an eye ray it can shoot a spell. And it casts as an unholy fusion of a sorcerer and a wizard, stuffed into 10 levels.

I don't reccomend it, though, since it changes the standard beholder encounter considerably.

[PinkysBrain]

Beholders can fire all their rays as a free action once per round. It's not an attack action of any sort...they can even move and bite, or double move, in the same turn they use rays.
Ugh, you are right ... I should really read errata more often.

If the beholder gets to go first there is a good chance the arcane caster is going to die, he is most vulnerable and most dangerous. You start with fear on the arcane caster (he gets -2 to saves now). Throw flesh to stone after it, if that doesn't work you throw finger of death after it, if that doesn't work you throw disintegrate after it ... if he is still standing you might as well throw the inflict ray after it too.

Then you throw sleep at the archer, if that doesn't work charm person, if that doesn't work charm monster (if any succeeds you throw the rest at the melee dude). Afterwards throw slow at whichever of the two is still standing.

Use up any left overs and disappear behind a corner or catch them in your AMF cone.

[Quietus]

Wouldn't the AMF cone negate the ongoing effects of, say, "Charm Person/Monster" or "Slow"?

[PinkysBrain]

Indeed ... okay, just pick any of them not affected, or use it to drop any of them to the ground if they are flying and move out of line of sight.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wouldn't the AMF cone negate the ongoing effects of, say, "Charm Person/Monster" or "Slow"?

No. It just supresses them.

[Fixer]

Have you seen the "revamped" beholder over on Wizards?

The extant beholder suffers from many things, including low saves, mediocre hit points, and a vast number of "save or die" phenomena, and rules about the direction it's facing. The Wizards article addresses most of these - I like that beholder a heck of a lot better!
I read it and liked it as well but I thought this was about the current version, not the revised one.

[Bigtuna]

1) When Players see a floating eyeball they think "beholder". A standard tactic is to place themselves in the anti-magic-cone - now they can be target by eye rays.
So spice it up a bit - look at "beholder kin" in "monsters of faraun" and other book from that setting (can't remember the names right now).
It looks like a beholder but don't have to fight like one :-)

2) If the beholder is flying in the celling out of melee reach make it run away and use a few healing potions if the party start doing to much damage.
The party have used spells and healing, but your beholder stil have unlimited rays and new health after a healing potion or two - round two!

3) Make huge pit - (perhaps with spikes or water in the bottom) with a little wodden bridge over. Ready a disintegrate for when the party tries to cross. With a little luck you can a) spilt the party b) do some damage c) give the party something to think about, while you stay out of reach attacking with your rays.

[ZekeArgo]

1) When Players see a floating eyeball they think "beholder". A standard tactic is to place themselves in the anti-magic-cone - now they can be target by eye rays.
So spice it up a bit - look at "beholder kin" in "monsters of faraun" and other book from that setting (can't remember the names right now).
It looks like a beholder but don't have to fight like one :-)

2) If the beholder is flying in the celling out of melee reach make it run away and use a few healing potions if the party start doing to much damage.
The party have used spells and healing, but your beholder stil have unlimited rays and new health after a healing potion or two - round two!

3) Make huge pit - (perhaps with spikes or water in the bottom) with a little wodden bridge over. Ready a disintegrate for when the party tries to cross. With a little luck you can a) spilt the party b) do some damage c) give the party something to think about, while you stay out of reach attacking with your rays.

Wait a sec... why would any party *try* to stay in the antimagic cone? The following round the beholder could just wink it off and then bam: an entire party ready for its rays. Pop the casters with fingers of death/disintigrate/flesh to stone, get the others with whatever other rays you want the the party is pretty quickly gone.

Beholders are powerful because of the sheer number of things they can do at once. Played intellegently they should be like dragons: nigh unstoppable unless caught completly by surprise.

[Fixer]

1) When Players see a floating eyeball they think "beholder". A standard tactic is to place themselves in the anti-magic-cone - now they can be target by eye rays.
So spice it up a bit - look at "beholder kin" in "monsters of faraun" and other book from that setting (can't remember the names right now).
It looks like a beholder but don't have to fight like one :-)

2) If the beholder is flying in the celling out of melee reach make it run away and use a few healing potions if the party start doing to much damage.
The party have used spells and healing, but your beholder stil have unlimited rays and new health after a healing potion or two - round two!

3) Make huge pit - (perhaps with spikes or water in the bottom) with a little wodden bridge over. Ready a disintegrate for when the party tries to cross. With a little luck you can a) spilt the party b) do some damage c) give the party something to think about, while you stay out of reach attacking with your rays.
Unless the characters have encountered one before or have sufficient Knowledge (dungeoneering) [needed for aberrations] the players should NOT be announcing "Beholder!" they should be announcing, "OH SPIT! WHAT IS THAT THING?"

[Bigtuna]

1) "Step into the cone" - Well im a master planning my own beholder encounter and had a little help from one of the players - it was his idea (and he have played more than me) so I guess my unlucky beholder will find out...
I guess the beholder can't do both (rays and AMF), since it says "turn AMF on/off in the beginning of it's turn".
- and if you can how would that work?
Besides let's say the beholder charms the fighter - the charmed fighter is ordered to attack the parties mage. If the mage later steps into the AMF the fighter might follow - leaving him "uncharmed" until the beholder looks away or turns of his eye (in which case the mage might have prepared an action).

2) players know it's a beholder vs. caracters know it.
Depending on the setting beholders like dragons a mighty enemies, so any adventure that kills one will most like brag about it (I would). And the form of a beholder is not something you mistake for something else (perhaps another "beholder kin").
Sure with some knowledge you get the extra info - what did all those eye rays do?
Thats the caracters, but it's the players you surprise when you put something in front of them that looks like a beholder, but does something else. (and then you can start with a spot check and some knowledge checks to find out if the carakters know more about the thing than the player..)

3) The books i looked in was: Monsters of Faerun and Lords of Madness

[henebry]

Have you seen the "revamped" beholder over on Wizards?

The extant beholder suffers from many things, including low saves, mediocre hit points, and a vast number of "save or die" phenomena, and rules about the direction it's facing. The Wizards article addresses most of these - I like that beholder a heck of a lot better!

Here's the link, in case anyone else wants to check it out: Monster Makeover: the beholder (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)

[Enzario]

Know whats even better than a BBEG with awesome abilities?
A BBEG with awesome abilities with minions!

[PinkysBrain]

Besides let's say the beholder charms the fighter - the charmed fighter is ordered to attack the parties mage.
He could grapple him and try to keep him from attacking the beholder ... but he wouldn't damage his party members, unless he does that all the time when he is not charmed too.

It can turn on/off it's AMF cone at any point in it's turn.