Optimizing a mammoth rider

[Rickshaw]

So after my initial freak out when I looked at the table, it then read the rules and saw that, sadly, the class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/mammoth-rider#TOC-Gigantic-Steed-Ex-) did not grant a total of +30 str to your mount and a similarly silly amount of con. The bonuses replace each other rather than stacking...alas. Probably for the best actually.

I still want to play one. That being said, I have no idea where to start. Ive never played a mounted character, I'm pretty sure I've never even put ranks in ride. I hardly know how the skill works! (You simple q&a thread ppl are gonna get lots of questions here in a bit).

That being said, I've done a little research. What I've found says that

I should play a mounted barbarian archetype for pounce
Get the mounted combat, spirited charge set of feats (though I don't know what that whole list might be)


Aside from that, are there any other race/class suggestions? And feats tucked away in splat books that would be especially good? Heck, the mount has a caveat at the bottom saying the DM can choose to allow other monsters as mounts too, so are there any suggestions for that?

[AvatarVecna]

It really depends on exactly what you're looking for. I have some ideas, but I need some clarification...

1) Is this for a real game, or is it a hypothetical exercise?

2) Is the point of the character optimizing the mammoth rider (as the thread title says) or is it optimizing a PF mounted combatant?

3) What ECL are you looking for? Also, standard, gestalt, or tristalt?

[Rickshaw]

It's for a real game, probably starting low level, but I want to start building towards the prc right away. And it's for optimizing the class. Part of the reason I'm asking is because I don't necessarily need to deal the most damage ever, but I would like to be aware of the options.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm building one up in PFS. Play something with a decent amount of skill points; the earliest you can get into it is at 10th level, and you need to MAX Handle Animal and Survival. Probably want Intimidate too. The mount my character plans to take is the Cat (Large), so GIANT SABRETOOTH TIGER. Comes with Pounce, 3 natural attacks, plus Grab (which Huge should make a decent plus to that ability). Unless the campaign takes place wholly outdoors, I would also invest in a wand of Carry Companion. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/carry-companion)

[AvatarVecna]

The first thing to bring up is that, due to the way skills work in PF, the first level this PrC can be entered at is 10th; until then, you've got to hold out on your own.

Attributes and Races

Str high, Int low...but not too low. Cha low, unless you're a Paladin. Dex isn't worth much, unless you want to dual-wield lances (warning: DMs may throw books at you for pulling this); that said, I recommend against dual-wielding, so Dex doesn't need to be high, especially if you're in heavy armor. Put Wis wherever you want.

I'm not sure what race to suggest, but you can't go wrong with Human or Half-Elf. Which reminds me: don't go Elf; Elves have the wrong kind of stats for this kind of character, so unless it just fits the character you had in mind, go elsewhere.


Classes

Barbarian fits well, with both the flavor and mechanics to support the class; in order to satisfy the special prereq, you'll need either Barbarian (Mad Dog archetype) 6 or Barbarian (Mounted Fury archetype) 10; the first option gives up a lot of your rage abilities, while the second option sacrifices basically all of your levels to Barbarian and Mammoth rider (assuming you take all 10 levels of the PrC).

Don't go druid. Druid 10/Mammoth Rider 10 is a clunky mess; they don't mesh well mechanically or flavor-wise. Why are you charging things from mammoth-back when you could be casting? If you're mostly a caster, why take levels in Mammoth Rider?

Fighter is good, but not on its own. What's great here is the Fighter (Dragoon archetype): dip in for a single level, and get Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride).

Paladin meshes surprisingly well, mechanically, although the fluff mesh leaves much to be desired; the only thing worth mentioning is that you're basically sacrificing your spells, smite, and lay on hands to become a better mounted combatant. Make sure to take the bonded mount, and you should be good; the Paladin (Shining Knight archetype) is great for this kind of build.

Ranger, after consulting the prereqs for Mammoth Rider, seems like the intended entry class. And boy does it work: sacrifice the Ranger's spellcasting and favored enemy for animal companion bonuses, bonuses against mages, and bonuses against larger creatures. Furthermore, if I was making a Ranger 10/Mammoth Rider 10, I'd take the last Ranger level before jumping into Mammoth Rider just so I could have Mounted Skirmisher 4 levels early(you know, the feat that lets you pounce from mountback). The Ranger (Horse Lord archetype) is decent, but only gets really good at 12th level; if you're willing to delay Mammoth Rider that long, power to you.


Feats

They're the basic of your character; i would hope you'd take at least three of them (Mounted Combat/Trick Riding/Mounted Skirmisher).

Mounted Combat Feats

Mounted Combat: This is basic, and necessary for so many other good feats. Also, skills are easier to optimize than AC.

Indomitable Mount: Second verse, same as the first: skills are easier to optimize than saves.

Ride-by Attack: On it's own, it's decent, but the real draw here is that having it qualifies you for...

Spirited Charge: This makes your damage even higher.

Trick Riding: As with Ride-by Attack, it's decent, but the feat it's needed for is the real killer.

Mounted Skirmisher: Pouncing from mount-back. That is awesome.


So, here's the thing: mounted characters, prior to taking Mounted Skirmisher, get one attack when their mount charges. Fortunately, PF has some feats to optimize for that; these feats are great pre-Mounted Skirmisher, but after you have it, they'll see less use. It'll work out better if you talk to your DM about retraining feats; if you can retrain, your character can be a lot more flexible in their feat-spending. Of course, some of these are good even with Mounted Skirmisher; I'll mark those with *.

Single Attack Feats

Power Attack*: 3.5 version is better in every way, but this is still a decent/great option for melee characters.

Furious Focus: Removes the PA penalty from your first attack every round; unless you make lots of AoOs, this is perfect for the low-level mounted combatant.

Death or Glory: Worth having if you face a lot of large creatures; not only does it have decent synergy with Mammoth Rider, it also works well with the Vital Strike feat line. Speaking of...

The Vital Strike feat line: You're only getting one attack anyway; until you have Mounted Skirmisher, these might look like good options. That said, if your DM won't let you retrain them later, don't take them.


I'll wrap up feats real quick: Improved Critical is basically the only critical feat worthwhile for a mounted combatant: this kind of character does so much damage, the various extra conditions the critical feats give you are virtually worthless; after a certain point, if you critted someone during your pounce-charge, they're dead. They might be dead even if you didn't crit.

Also, don't dual-wield. The only people who can pull off dual-wielding lances from mount-back are Human Fighter (Dragoon archetype) 20 characters, and they don't even have a mount class feature build in. Don't dual-wield: it requires too many feats to be any better than mediocre.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

To refute the above poster: You want to be getting a decent amount of skills per level. Since you can pretty much subtract 2, because you are maxing out Ride and Handle Animal, which don't come up very often, and putting five ranks in Survival.

Also, you seem to have completely forgotten about the main mounted class, the Cavalier/Samurai. They have class abilities that synergize, and support for doing stuff out of combat; if you really want to be a mounted terror, going for a lance-using Gendarme might be best.

[AvatarVecna]

To refute the above poster: You want to be getting a decent amount of skills per level. Since you can pretty much subtract 2, because you are maxing out Ride and Handle Animal, which don't come up very often, and putting five ranks in Survival.

Also, you seem to have completely forgotten about the main mounted class, the Cavalier/Samurai. They have class abilities that synergize, and support for doing stuff out of combat; if you really want to be a mounted terror, going for a lance-using Gendarme might be best.

Skill points are pitifully easy to get in PF; with skill requirements this loose, it barely needs to be mentioned. I didn't feel I needed to remind the OP that he needs to take the skills stated in the PrCs prereqs; I don't feel like playing at being "Captain Obvious".

As for Cavalier and Samurai, I didn't feel I was as familiar with those classes as would be necessary to comment on their feasibility in this regard. In retrospect, I could've perhaps made a note mentioning those classes, but then I guess hindsight is 20/20. What matters is that it's been brought to the OP's attention.

[Nihilarian]

Vital Strike doesn't work with charges.

[AvatarVecna]

Vital Strike doesn't work with charges.

Really? Why not?

[ghanjrho]

Really? Why not?

Vital Strike works only on standard action attacks, unfortunately. No charge, no Spring Attack, no Whirlwind Attack. Maybe AoO's, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Also, I wouldn't recommend Death or Glory. You're giving up a full attack to make a single attack with some bonuses, that your enemy gets the next round if you don't kill them.

[AvatarVecna]

Vital Strike works only on standard action attacks, unfortunately. No charge, no Spring Attack, no Whirlwind Attack. Maybe AoO's, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Also, I wouldn't recommend Death or Glory. You're giving up a full attack to make a single attack with some bonuses, that your enemy gets the next round if you don't kill them.

I guess I'm not as familiar with how Vital Strike interacts with the normal attack rules. The fact that it could stack onto Vital Strike was the only reason Death or Glory was being considered; since it doesn't work, Death or Glory is terrible.

Please tell me that at the very least I read Furious Focus correctly. Furious Focus works, right?

[Rickshaw]

What about any of the new hybrid classes? I haven't had a chance to look at archetypes yet, but would any of the Druid/ranger class be any good?

[ghanjrho]

I guess I'm not as familiar with how Vital Strike interacts with the normal attack rules. The fact that it could stack onto Vital Strike was the only reason Death or Glory was being considered; since it doesn't work, Death or Glory is terrible.

Please tell me that at the very least I read Furious Focus correctly. Furious Focus works, right?

Vital Strike does work with Death or Glory, being specifically called out as doing so in Death or Glory's description. Doesn't keep Death or Glory from being a terrible feat. Let's take a L6 Fighter w/ a greatsword as our example. STR 18, +2 weapon, Power Attack, Weapon Training 1, Weapon Focus/Specialization. Only party buff is haste.

Full attack: +12/+12/+7 to hit. The ettin is CR6, so we'll use that to get 18 AC. The first two attacks hit on a 6 or better, the third on 11+. Average damage will be 2d6(7)+2+6+6+1+2=24. We factor that through our accuracy and wind up with (on average) 48 damage for his full attack.

Death or Glory: +16 to hit. Average damage assuming Vital Strike (which would actually have to wait a level for, but that doesn't affect the damage so we'll ignore it) is 4d6(14)+6+6+4+2+2+1=35. 35 damage for the full round action of Death or Glory. Which then gives the ettin the chance to spend an immediate action to counter attack with the same bonuses. That's a +14, 2d6+14 attack coming back at you, assuming he chooses to Power Attack. And then he gets his normal attack pattern on his next turn.

As for Furious Focus, the only thing you missed is that you must be wielding the weapon two-handed to get the effects of it.

[ghanjrho]

What about any of the new hybrid classes? I haven't had a chance to look at archetypes yet, but would any of the Druid/ranger class be any good?

Just off the top of my head, Hunter should work well. Wild Child Brawler might work, haven't read too deeply into that one yet.

[Rickshaw]

So with the pack master archetype... Would you get multiple huge animal companion/mounts?

[AvatarVecna]

A basic reading of the Mammoth Rider and the Packmaster archetype makes me inclined to say no: the Mammoth Rider "Steed" ability says it replaces existing animal companion/mount abilities, although it adds levels from both companion-granting classes to determine effective druid level. A particularly lenient DM might be willing to let it work, although the DMs I've worked with have tended to frown on things like multiple Huge animal companions.

[Giddonihah]

Something I discovered thats vaguely relevent. A Hunter/Druid/Ranger with a Large Sized animal companion that takes Mammoth Rider and then casts Animal Growth would have a Gargantuan size animal companion.
With the spell Strong Jaw (lvl3 spell gotten at lvl 7 for a hunter) you qualify for " If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead.".

Now a Primal Companion Hunter can give a bunch of extra natural attacks (Up to 5 more I believe) to this Gargantuan beast AND give it Pounce, the ability to fly and whatever else you have the evolution points for.
Oh and as a Hunter you have a bunch of Teamwork Feats that you can choose from, and the ability to teach this thing skirmisher tricks.

I suppose this is optimizing the Mammoth, rather than the rider. All things considered its probably a tradeoff with going Ranger. A Ranger is a more capable fighter to fight from a Mount, but a Hunter can get a better Companion and gets the entire Ranger spell list with just 10lvls.