What's your opinion on Magic of Incarnum?

[atemu1234]

Another what's your opinion thread. Have fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Favorite 3.5 book, hands down. I just wish it had better formatting and structure: finding anything is difficult, and rules are strewn all over the place.

[Vinyl Scratch]

It is very Blue. Cerulean or Cobalt, even.

[Warlocknthewind]

I absolutely adore the Incarnum Subsystem.

There is something in it to enhance any build, the fluff is fresh, and everything but the Soulborn has it's place.

The amount of synergy between Incarnum, Psionics, and Blade magic is the basis of many many crunch concepts I have tried to but into my games.

Free PP from essentia, Free Essentia from Focus, Free refreshing maneuvers from Psionic Focus, free Psionic Focus from maneuvers, with only a bit of system mastery.

In E6 the combinations become appauling.c

[Vhaidara]

I love Incarnum. In Gestalt, i always pick Incarnate, Totemist, or Factotum as the passive side. There is just so much fun stuff you can do with it, from a strafing ranged attacker (manticore belt build) to grapplers (Kraken Mantle + Girallon Arms).

After seeing Path of War, I am eagerly awaiting Akashic Mysteries from DSP. Incarnum with good editing and formatting? Almost Tippy levels of pure win.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Favorite 3.5 book, hands down. I just wish it had better formatting and structure: finding anything is difficult, and rules are strewn all over the place.

It may not be my favorite out there, but I do love the subsystem. I really wish it got more love than what little it did get elsewhere.

[geekintheground]

it seems really cool. never used it, and only did some cursory reading, but i hear good things and what i read i was pleased by. only complaint is how hard it is how complex it is... takes a couple readings to understand it.

[Tommy2255]

Finally got around to figuring out last weekend, gonna try introducing some NPCs with a couple of the feats this Thursday, I mostly reserve judgement until then.

It looks promising. Mechanically useful and a rather interesting departure from any of the other magic systems. However, it's a bit more confusing to get started in than other systems. For instance, it has the same problem as Psionics where a major limitation and balancing factor is how much Essentia/PP you can invest into a particular ability, with that information buried somewhere that it's easy to miss, in the case of MoI in the introduction to the classes rather than in the description of the magic system as a whole.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is very Blue. Cerulean or Cobalt, even.

Are you sure you don't mean Azure, Midnight, or Sapphire?


Favorite 3.5 book, hands down. I just wish it had better formatting and structure: finding anything is difficult, and rules are strewn all over the place.

Agreed and agreed. I really like how they set out to come up with something entirely new, and not only did that but made something that is both balanced (Soulborn aside) and really useful, either for dipping or for the central element of a build. It's the only thing I like more than the Pact Magic subsystem. My main quibble with the book is that they sorted all the soulmelds alphabetically, when they should've divided the soulmelds into three lists (one for each class). My second quibble is that the quick-reference tables at the start of the chapter don't tell you the effects of essentia or binding. If they had done both of those, I don't think I'd have any criticisms of MoI.


I love Incarnum. In Gestalt, i always pick Incarnate, Totemist, or Factotum as the passive side. There is just so much fun stuff you can do with it, from a strafing ranged attacker (manticore belt build) to grapplers (Kraken Mantle + Girallon Arms).

After seeing Path of War, I am eagerly awaiting Akashic Mysteries from DSP. Incarnum with good editing and formatting? Almost Tippy levels of pure win.

Wait, DSP is reworking Incarnum? Now the only thing keeping me from switching to PF is Tome of Magic... I'll definitely have to actually try PF once that rewrite comes out, though :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

Wait, DSP is reworking Incarnum? Now the only thing keeping me from switching to PF is Tome of Magic... I'll definitely have to actually try PF once that rewrite comes out, though :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Well, I know there's already been a Binder conversion (Radiant House, the Occultist). Don't know about Shadowcasting and Truenaming, and I doubt that 3.5 Truenaming is keeping you to the system, since you need a homebrew fix to make it work right anyways

[Karnith]

Incarnum is probably my favorite subsystem, and it's a shame that, like most subsystems, it got minimal support in other sources (just a web enhancement and a Dragon article, I think?). It's deep, complex, and well-balanced with some very interesting fluff and mostly solid mechanical options - Soulborn is awful, and some of the PrCs are lackluster, but the material is otherwise great as a main focus of or small addition to a character.

[Extra Anchovies]

Incarnum is probably my favorite subsystem, and it's a shame that, like most subsystems, it got minimal support in other sources (just a web enhancement and a Dragon article, I think?). It's deep, complex, and well-balanced with some very interesting fluff and mostly solid mechanical options - Soulborn is awful, and some of the PrCs are lackluster, but the material is otherwise great as a main or side focus.

Well, it also got some stuff in Dragon Magic. That's actually my favorite book other than MoI, because it gave a bit of splat support to pretty much everything (new warlock invocations, a new vestige, new soulmelds, heck, even new stuff for the Dragon Shaman).


Well, I know there's already been a Binder conversion (Radiant House, the Occultist). Don't know about Shadowcasting and Truenaming, and I doubt that 3.5 Truenaming is keeping you to the system, since you need a homebrew fix to make it work right anyways

Waitwaitwait, they already redid the Binder? Where's the baptismal font, I'm ready for conversion :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Reading it always leaves me feeling blue for some reason...

It's a system that makes sense, really. Warriors that fit in a world filled with magical creatures. I just don't really like the fluff about soul energy, I'd say Incarnate uses power from appropriate planes and Totemist uses power from the material plane and Feywild.

Also, I get confused as to why they'd include some melds that could only be gotten via feat, but maybe they thought Thunderstep Boots were too good to not cost a feat. >_>

[aleucard]

Its formatting is probably the single largest cluster@#$% of its kind in the entire 3.5 library. After you decode it, however, I'd have to say it's got some amusing little stunts it can pull, with the biggest one that comes to mind being able to pull off Epic crafting pre-Epic. Have yet to give it a hard look, but what little I've glossed over says that it could be fun, even if I indulged my inner gimp and put VoP on the toon I used the book with. Normally, the only ones who can pull that off properly are Primary Casters.

[Blackhawk748]

Like it a lot, all kinds of fun for pretty much any build you can think of.

[emeraldstreak]

Good.


ten chars

[Troacctid]

It's fun! But it's confusing to learn and not very well organized, and there's a lot of chaff mixed in with the good stuff. Some things really bother me. Why do Sapphire Hierarchs have to be lawful, and why is it Cleric-only? Does Witchborn Binder really need to have half-meldshaping with class features that scale based on meldshaper level? And what's the use of being able to invest essentia in feats if you can't move it around like you can with all other essentia receptacles? That's supposed to be like the whole point of essentia!

[Psyren]

I love the notion of it being a more primitive form of magic that is nonetheless still effective. MoI touched on this a little but Akashic Mysteries is really running with that idea and I might end up liking that version even more as a result. I can always port in the melds I really want to keep if I need to.



Waitwaitwait, they already redid the Binder? Where's the baptismal font, I'm ready for conversion :smalltongue:

There's even a handbook! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FGgq3CJYQaeAugHvaaws-ak1ryZzijKou_w1KN0D9HA/pub) [/shamelessplug]

(Don't mind the paint everywhere, I'm redecorating with the Vol 2. spirits :smallsmile:)

[WhamBamSam]

I like it a lot. I mostly use it for its dip friendly nature, in part because the classes are more than a little front-loaded, but it's a great addition to the game. I should really try playing a full Totemist or Incarnate at some point.

[Oddman80]

Just read it for the first time this week. I thought it was great. I just read through the totemist handbook, and am about to start petitioning my DM to allow the classes from it (he has a peculiar mix of classes on his OK list, which lends me to think it may consist only of classes he himself has played... I might need to find a new group to try it out, but I probably would be willing too given how cool the material was.

[Vhaidara]

I like it a lot. I mostly use it for its dip friendly nature, in part because the classes are more than a little front-loaded, but it's a great addition to the game. I should really try playing a full Totemist or Incarnate at some point.

Full Totemist is really fun for silly amounts of dice. I have a Totemist 20 build that does, in one round
528d4 fire
32d6 fire
32d6 cold
32d6 acid
32d6 electricity
32d6 untyped
32x Str mod

Totemist 20, grab Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x2 and Double Bind (Totem and Waist). Get an Incarnum Belt. Bind Manticore Belt and Heart of Fire to Totem and Waist, and select them for ESC, raising their cap to 8 (4 normal, 2 Totem, 1 ESC, 1 Incarnum Focus). Get an Amulet of Natural Attacks keyed to Spikes with Flaming, Corrosive, Frost, and Shocking. Get a Belt of Battle. Activate Totem Embodiment.
Now, as a standard action, you can throw 16 spikes, each of which does 1d6 each of untyped (Manticore Belt damage is technically untyped), fire, cold, electrical, and acid, +Str Mod, +16d4 from Heart of Fire. Activate Belt of Battle and do it twice.
Congrats, with your move action still available, you just rolled almost 700 dice (688, to be precise)

[Snowbluff]

It is very Blue. Cerulean or Cobalt, even.

Vinyl, baby, that's the best part! Just like your mane!

I like it, but it's not my fave. I like ToB and Tome of Vestiges better. The layout is a bit of a mess, and I wish we had more soulmeld options.

[malonkey1]

You can probably guess if you've known me for a while, I am a big fan of Incarnum. I just really like any system that busts out of the Vancian mold, Incarnum, ToB, Binding, et cetera. (I would have written "etc." but it's always hard for me to figure out the proper way to end a sentence with an abbreviation)

[PsyBomb]

Easily my favorite subsystem in 3.5, I've played more Totemists than any other class (including a VoP which was actually functional) and the Ironsoul Forgemaster is like a Dwarven Defender that actually works.

[Psyren]

Easily my favorite subsystem in 3.5, I've played more Totemists than any other class (including a VoP which was actually functional) and the Ironsoul Forgemaster is like a Dwarven Defender that actually works.

I'd give Deepstone Sentinel that award personally, but IF comes second.

[Blackhawk748]

Full Totemist is really fun for silly amounts of dice. I have a Totemist 20 build that does, in one round
528d4 fire
32d6 fire
32d6 cold
32d6 acid
32d6 electricity
32d6 untyped
32x Str mod

Totemist 20, grab Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x2 and Double Bind (Totem and Waist). Get an Incarnum Belt. Bind Manticore Belt and Heart of Fire to Totem and Waist, and select them for ESC, raising their cap to 8 (4 normal, 2 Totem, 1 ESC, 1 Incarnum Focus). Get an Amulet of Natural Attacks keyed to Spikes with Flaming, Corrosive, Frost, and Shocking. Get a Belt of Battle. Activate Totem Embodiment.
Now, as a standard action, you can throw 16 spikes, each of which does 1d6 each of untyped (Manticore Belt damage is technically untyped), fire, cold, electrical, and acid, +Str Mod, +16d4 from Heart of Fire. Activate Belt of Battle and do it twice.
Congrats, with your move action still available, you just rolled almost 700 dice (688, to be precise)

I would get a library thrown at me for this, but so worth it. Oddly enough you arnet even doing anything that crazy

[Vhaidara]

I would get a library thrown at me for this, but so worth it. Oddly enough you arnet even doing anything that crazy

Oh, I would to. After we finished laughing, we'd all go to the library and my group would push a shelf down on me. Then go to buy the dice they need to figure out how dead the thing is. And a bucket to roll them in.

[Rubik]

Full Totemist is really fun for silly amounts of dice. I have a Totemist 20 build that does, in one round
528d4 fire
32d6 fire
32d6 cold
32d6 acid
32d6 electricity
32d6 untyped
32x Str mod

Totemist 20, grab Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x2 and Double Bind (Totem and Waist). Get an Incarnum Belt. Bind Manticore Belt and Heart of Fire to Totem and Waist, and select them for ESC, raising their cap to 8 (4 normal, 2 Totem, 1 ESC, 1 Incarnum Focus). Get an Amulet of Natural Attacks keyed to Spikes with Flaming, Corrosive, Frost, and Shocking. Get a Belt of Battle. Activate Totem Embodiment.
Now, as a standard action, you can throw 16 spikes, each of which does 1d6 each of untyped (Manticore Belt damage is technically untyped), fire, cold, electrical, and acid, +Str Mod, +16d4 from Heart of Fire. Activate Belt of Battle and do it twice.
Congrats, with your move action still available, you just rolled almost 700 dice (688, to be precise)I'm fairly certain that manticore spikes aren't natural attacks, though it's debatable. I guess.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Well, he certainly got one thing wrong: You only add half your strength modifier to the manticore spikes.

[Extra Anchovies]

(including a VoP which was actually functional)

Hm. Hadn't thought about VoP Incarnum before. Considering that Incarnum is all about filling your magic item slots with free stuff, that could actually work. Totemist in particular, because they get some nasty weapons from their binds/melds. May have to try it myself.

[Xaktsaroth]

I'd give Deepstone Sentinel that award personally, but IF comes second.

Why choose?

Crusader 3/Incarnate 2/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5.

You're a Dwarf craftsman, who becomes as immoveable as a mountain in battle, fighting with armments you crafted yourself, empowered by the souls of your ancestors.

You're literally the Dwarfyist Dwarf that ever Dwarved.

At least until they get that Beer Cannon thing working.

[malonkey1]

Why choose?

Crusader 3/Incarnate 2/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Deepstone Sentinel 5.

You're a Dwarf craftsman, who becomes as immoveable as a mountain in battle, fighting with armments you crafted yourself, empowered by the souls of your ancestors.

You're literally the Dwarfyist Dwarf that ever Dwarved.

At least until they get that Beer Cannon thing working.

You could make the Beer Cannon.

[Rubik]

Given the ways the outer planes react with mortal beliefs, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a Paraelemental Plane of Beer (at the junction between Water and Earth), and if that's the case, you can tap (heh) it with something like a cross between an everfull mug and a decanter of endless water.

[Xaktsaroth]

you could make the beer cannon.

To the forge!

[Curbstomp]

1. I like the mechanics, though the blue theme is a bit much :smalltongue:
2. It seems fairly balanced relative to other subsystems :smallbiggrin:
3. It has all the organization of a pack of drunk hyenas :smallsigh:
4. The fluff about soul energy is absolutely abhorrent to both myself and the majority of my play group :smallmad:

Overall I'd rate this at a 6 out of 10.

[Troacctid]

Oh, and Umbral Disciple. What's the deal with Umbral Disciple? It starts out super-cool with free concealment and Hide in Plain Sight at 3rd level, and then suddenly it's three dead levels in a row where you get no new class features at all. And then at 7th it picks up again with more super-cool abilities as if nothing ever happened. It's like they just forgot to put stuff in the middle of the chart.

[Marlowe]

I've heard good things about the subsystem. Every time I try to actually read the thing I keep finding I need to turn to another section in order to make sense of what I'm currently looking at, so I'm guessing that's the layout issue in action.:smallfrown:

The main (very superficial) impression I get from it, sadly, is distaste for the artwork. Everyone is very flat, stiff, dressed idiotically and frozen in the most ridiculous poses. It's like looking at snapshots of a decadent disco scene from a dodgy late-80s post-apocalyptic film.
.http://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/eTools_User/Portraits/Magic%20of%20Incarnum/Azurins.jpghttp://crpp0001.uqtr.ca/w4/campagne/eTools_User/Portraits/Magic%20of%20Incarnum/Rilkans.jpg

[WrathMage]

To my eternal shame, I sold my Magic of Incarnum about 5-6 years back, when I moved and needed to downsize my 3.5 collection.

I read it and I have to admit it left me feeling a bit baffled... But that was because I was right out of running 3.5 at the time. now I regret selling it and never giving it enough of a chance at my table. It's on my "To Purchase" list...

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm quite fond of Incarnum, though, as so many have mentioned, the formatting is an unnecessary impediment to figuring out the system. And of course there's the Soulborn. But yeah, I like the whole "Mr. La Forge, reroute auxiliary power to phasers- I mean, I use my swift action to move some essentia into my Manticore Belt and then bring the pain," thing has a great deal of appeal to me. I like the idea of having a resource powering my abilities which I can move around to get different levels of effect - I find I much prefer it to Vancian casting, on the whole. Not to mention the excellent synergy with Psionics. And blue is my favorite color, so, on the whole, I think it's a cool subsystem which, like so many of the cool subsystems, didn't get the support and space to grow which it deserved.


Full Totemist is really fun for silly amounts of dice. I have a Totemist 20 build that does, in one round
528d4 fire
32d6 fire
32d6 cold
32d6 acid
32d6 electricity
32d6 untyped
32x Str mod

Totemist 20, grab Expanded Soulmeld Capacity x2 and Double Bind (Totem and Waist). Get an Incarnum Belt. Bind Manticore Belt and Heart of Fire to Totem and Waist, and select them for ESC, raising their cap to 8 (4 normal, 2 Totem, 1 ESC, 1 Incarnum Focus). Get an Amulet of Natural Attacks keyed to Spikes with Flaming, Corrosive, Frost, and Shocking. Get a Belt of Battle. Activate Totem Embodiment.
Now, as a standard action, you can throw 16 spikes, each of which does 1d6 each of untyped (Manticore Belt damage is technically untyped), fire, cold, electrical, and acid, +Str Mod, +16d4 from Heart of Fire. Activate Belt of Battle and do it twice.
Congrats, with your move action still available, you just rolled almost 700 dice (688, to be precise)

And that's without slapping the Splitting enhancement on it.


Oh, I would to. After we finished laughing, we'd all go to the library and my group would push a shelf down on me. Then go to buy the dice they need to figure out how dead the thing is. And a bucket to roll them in.

I take it your group has never played Shadowrun, then?

[Larkas]

I quite like it! It's a fresh and versatile little system. I also happen to like the fluff, and usually equate the source of the summoner's eidolon to the same soulstuff that powers Incarnum in any 3.P games I run (summoners help the source design new, represent extant or remember extinct creatures).

I never got the blue theme, though.

[EisenKreutzer]

I love the concept, and I really like the book. IMO the way they designed the classes is a bit wonky, and I wish there were more Incarnum to choose from, but it's definitely on my good-list.

I'm really digging the Pathfinder edition, Akashic Mysteries.

[Snowbluff]

I never got the blue theme, though.

It's quite simple.

Pizza for the body.

Coffee for the mind.

Blue... FOR THE SOUL!

[Rubik]

I never got the blue theme, though.You can't play the Blues if you ain't got no soul.

[Psyren]

My guess is that they wanted a "magic color" - and more importantly, one with a variety of words for its different shades to represent the alignment tie. It would have been this or purple probably. Also one with a ton of synonyms so the new feats are easily recognizable. You look at "Azure X" "Cerulean Y" or "Sapphire Z" and you immediately think "Oh, this is for that new Incarnum thing."

Red and Green are out due to their connotations of hatred/rage/blood and nature/money, respectively. Yellow and Silver are associated with sunlight and therefore Goodness, while Black is associated with evil. Orange doesn't have many synonyms.

[Terazul]

Great subsystem book, though easily the one that took the longest to personally understand, and still takes the longest to explain to others. As others earlier in the thread point out, the organization of the book is atrocious; Soulmelds are in alphabetical order instead of listed by which classes can use them, I always forget where the essentia capacity table is, some other things. It's refreshing to have a system where you merely reallocate your resources as necessary rather than expend them, though it takes awhile to get the hang of it (and the feats bug me because they typically don't let you move it around. weird.). It just really takes a bit to grasp/teach what it's all about. Once you get over the "OOHHHH I see now" threshold of investing, moving, binding and what have you, it's all gravy. Not a ton of outside support, but a few soulmelds tucked away in the backs of some books/Dragon Magazine at least.

The "blue" thing doesn't really bother me, I never understood why that turned people off so much. Arcane magic loves the crap out of emeralds and rubies, and Divine will not shut up about how you need powdered diamond for everything. I think it's just a matter of the "blue" thing being more easily noticed.

[Talionis]

My main quibble with the book is that they sorted all the soulmelds alphabetically, when they should've divided the soulmelds into three lists (one for each class). My second quibble is that the quick-reference tables at the start of the chapter don't tell you the effects of essentia or binding. If they had done both of those, I don't think I'd have any criticisms of MoI.

1. The formatting prevents most people from really appreciating the system.

2. Fluff, that can be a problem. I don't like the alignment and race restrictions in the classes and we've had to houserule a bunch of them. These restrictions are exacerbated by the fact that there isn't much support. Necrocarnum being so Evil seems limiting. I always wanted to think that Essentia is where magical beasts get their magic, so that a Totemist is tapping into the same power source that all the magic of Magical Beasts tap into, so its primal and different from Divine and Arcane without being foreign and so restrictive to role play.

3. Soulborn and many of the Prestige Classes have flaws. Again lack of support keeps there from being a Soulmeld/Martial Adept Theurge Prestige Class, but also just having so many dud Prestige Classes that didn't even use the Soulmeld system seems silly. Often you were highly penalized by Prestige Classing without reward. Soulborn Witchhunter is an excellent example of a class that needs a good meldshaper level to remain relevant at what it is supposed to do, but then gets hit with meldshaper level penalties.

4. I"m not sure it levels well. I think it starts very strong and hits problems at about level 7 or 8.

5. Totemist is capable of a sick number of attacks per turn.

6. Share Soulmeld should work on the Soulspark (sp?) I think most people houserule it to work with it.

7. Incarnates should probably have been given more class skills and skill points. Possibly Medium BaB.

8. Its not immediately obvious what Incarnates are supposed to do to attack. They seem like melee, but then its hard with poor BaB and many of the bonuses are linked to particular alignments and may or may not pass on benefits to iterative attacks even if you eventually get them. Leading to them being powerful at low levels, but being without focus at mid to high levels.

9. Knowing all your soulmelds at level one is a blessing and a curse, causing it to feel like you don't get as much at each new level. As you get binds this is less a problem, but again I'm not sure that the bind powers come along at the appropriate levels. ex: Throat opens up at level 14 for both Incarnates and Totemists and that feels a bit late for the powers granted. Granted its all compared to the power level of the game.

10. Soulmelds are so dip friendly that often builds don't require even a single level in a Meldshaper class. Thus you are almost dis-incentived to take class levels, when with a feat you can have a soulmeld another feat allows you to bind them.

Overall, I really enjoy playing Incarnates, but frown about the lack of Prestige Class options and different directions to take them because once you've played one Incarnate, you've played them all. Still well worth the investment and something that Wizards should've done more with.

[YossarianLives]

The fluff seems kind of silly but otherwise its a great book!

[Vhaidara]

To everyone mentioning the idea of an Initiator/Meldshaper Gish/Theurge, I actually feel that might be too good. I mean, even as they stand, without such a class existing, they are incredibly synergistic

[Psyren]

Eh, it would be no more powerful than a psionic/meldshaper theurge or a pact magic/meldshaper imo.

[Vhaidara]

Eh, it would be no more powerful than a psionic/meldshaper theurge or a pact magic/meldshaper imo.

Well, yeah, but Totemist/PsyWar/Soul Manifester is freaking terrifying.

Not so sure about the Pact/Meld though. Pact Magic is weird with its interactions. It's kind of like Incarnum and the Factotum: It's hard to find a build that isn't at least a little improved by a sprinkling of it. I feel a Pact/Meld class would be a PrC with no focus at all

[Qwertystop]

Well, yeah, but Totemist/PsyWar/Soul Manifester is freaking terrifying.

Not so sure about the Pact/Meld though. Pact Magic is weird with its interactions. It's kind of like Incarnum and the Factotum: It's hard to find a build that isn't at least a little improved by a sprinkling of it. I feel a Pact/Meld class would be a PrC with no focus at all

Already exists: the Midnight Occultist (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22), and it's pretty cool. Ends up working with natural attacks and a few utility effects. You bind vestiges in both the Binder and Incarnum senses at once - the class has bind and essentia effects for Totem and two other chakras for every ToM vestige.

[Vhaidara]

Well, in homebrew form, of course it exists. I think we were referring to the lack of 1st party options on that path. I'm sure there are plenty of ToB/Incarnum homebrew PrCs.

However, I shall have to look at that. I trust homebrew more than Wizards at this point.

[DM Nate]

I love the book so much, I've had campaigns where the players were all required to be some form of meldshaper.

[Telonius]

I really like the subsystem. Great for dipping, all kinds of nifty abilities, and a way of giving Nice Things to a Constitution-focused build.

For the classes, Totemist is awesome. Incarnate is okay, but seems to be made more for dipping than taking to 20. Soulborn is ... not good. At all. Not "Truenamer" bad, but sub-Paladin bad.

The editing of the book leaves a lot to be desired, but that's kind of par for late-3.5. Necrocarnum and Undead Meldshaping didn't really work well together, and I really wish it had.

[Talionis]

To everyone mentioning the idea of an Initiator/Meldshaper Gish/Theurge, I actually feel that might be too good. I mean, even as they stand, without such a class existing, they are incredibly synergistic

1. I can't imagine it would be more overpowered than Sapphire Heirarch or Soulcaster.

2. Plus if it were terrible you could lose Meldshaper levels or Initiator levels either by entry requirements or levels that just don't advance one or the other.

3. I like Setting Sun and Meldshaping since you can greatly increase Sense Motive, Strength, and Land Speed with soulmelds and I don't think it would have to be overpowered compared to what you could be doing with spells.

[Troacctid]

6. Share Soulmeld should work on the Soulspark (sp?) I think most people houserule it to work with it.

Are you kidding? Share Soulmeld is already one of the most powerful feats in the book, it doesn't need to be buffed even more.

[Alent]

My opinion is it looks really cool, but the book is confusing and I haven't gotten to play one yet. I really don't feel safe commenting directly on any of the mechanics as a result, but it seems like there's a ton of redundancy in play with the meldshapes?

I would not be terribly opposed to finding a Roll20 group or something to play one, I guess.

I also didn't actually think that much about the extreme blueness until I saw forum commentary on it. I just sort of assumed it was because Transmutation magic has a blue aura under detect magic in the campaigns of whoever wrote the fluff.

[Threadnaught]

I hate it!

It just sits there out of reach mocking me like Tome of Battle once did.
Will never* use.
*Before purchasing. It's the same line I gave about ToB before getting that.


Almost Tippy levels of pure win.

Well he is the Avatar of Rudisplork. :smallwink:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Already exists: the Midnight Occultist (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22), and it's pretty cool. Ends up working with natural attacks and a few utility effects. You bind vestiges in both the Binder and Incarnum senses at once - the class has bind and essentia effects for Totem and two other chakras for every ToM vestige.

I have two complaints against the Midnight Occultist:
It's unfortunately homebrew.
Why the hell didn't I think of it first?!


That being said, I absolutely adore the class. The amount of effort put into it is just utterly stunning - from the shear number of vestige-meld hybrids made to the specially designed font and text when it was initially presented. All-in-all, grade-freaking-A+ work. If I ever get a chance to play one of these bad boys in something other than a short-lived PBP, I will most certainly do just that.

[Blackhawk748]

I sense a Midnight Occultist in my future. Oh god is that gonna be a ton of fun.

[Irk]

Favorite subsystem. I know it REALLY well, and I could combine it with most any other subsystem, if necessary. It tiles so well with everything else, ties elements of a build together, and is an excellent supplement to any build.

I know a lot of people hate the fluff, but I like certain bits of it quite a lot. I'm a big fan of the magical locations, and I really like the Bastion of Souls. However, my hands-down favorite piece of lore in the book is the Vaults of the Society of the Learned. The campaign ideas are excellent, and the extra dimensional vaults totally have a mysterious appeal. I've always wanted to play in a campaign that featured them, either as a PC or DM.

The monsters aren't wonderful, but there are a few gems. The Incarnum Dragons are great, they make any dragon fight far more interesting, and add a valuable element of customization to the monster apart from spell selection. Combined with the enhancements to dragon special abilities found in Dragon Magic and the Draconic soulmelds, you can make a unique and challenging opponent for your players.
The other highlight of the monster section, IMO, is the Necrocarnum Zombie template. The reason is that you can make monsters with a tremendous amount of HD at extremely low CR. if you slapped on some sort of intelligence booster, you can give them an Initator level and throw Martial Adept zombies with 17th-level Initiating at I believe around CR 13, which is quite a good challenge for higher-OP parties.

Overall, the book is an extremely valuable addition to the game, and is also responsible for really getting me into optimization and [some semblance of] system mastery. Without it, I would not have signed up on these boards or been able to explore the 3.5 system in greater depth.

Fax summarized it best at the beginning of the thread: Favorite 3.5 book, hands down.

EDIT: I am also a MASSIVE fan of the Midnight Occultist, as others have mentioned. Two of my favorite subsystems, meshed in a perfectly harmonious fashion. It's just so well thought out, and easily my favorite homebrew.

[Curmudgeon]

The organization (or lack thereof) is a sufficient turn-off that, while I have waded through the book enough to figure it out, it's just left me cold.