Monk/Druid

[Tenmujiin]

The Druid's wild shape ability states that you get the game statistics of the creature you change into but also states you keep any abilities from classes. This seems to indicate that as a monk or barbarian/druid you would keep the AC from con/wis when whildshaped or am I missing something? This probably wont stack with natural armor but buffing that bear form's ac from 11 seems prettly strong.

Also, would the natural weapons of animal forms (not sure of the 5e term) count as unarmed attacks for the monk's martial arts class feature? From a balance perspective I would think not but what does the RAW indicate?

[hymer]

The exact interaction between Unarmored Defense and Wild Shape isn't exactly clear right now. Many animal forms have 'natural armor' for instance (though we don't really know what that means). Does this mean they can't count as unarmored? What about creatures that don't have any natural armor? The same questions apply to unarmed damage. Can animals be considered armed? Their weapons surely aren't monk weapons, though.
At this point in time, it's up to the DM. Maybe the DMG will shed some light on these problems, but I sorta doubt it. We'll see.

[Ferrin33]

The Druid's wild shape ability states that you get the game statistics of the creature you change into but also states you keep any abilities from classes. This seems to indicate that as a monk or barbarian/druid you would keep the AC from con/wis when whildshaped or am I missing something? This probably wont stack with natural armor but buffing that bear form's ac from 11 seems prettly strong.

Also, would the natural weapons of animal forms (not sure of the 5e term) count as unarmed attacks for the monk's martial arts class feature? From a balance perspective I would think not but what does the RAW indicate?

You would keep the Unarmored Defense class feature, which from the monk would be more beneficial for the bear form because you keep your own Wisdom score and the bear has pretty low Dex. It doesn't stack, but replaces the armor value of the bear form. So a Monk1/Druid(moon)2 with 16 Wisdom would have an AC of 16 while in Brown Bear form (10 + 3 Con(bear form) + 3 Wis).

The Monk class feature allows you to use Martial Arts while unarmed, only wearing monk weapons(Simple + Shortsword), and not wearing armor or a shield.

The class feature only mentions unarmed strikes and monk weapons and has no mention of natural weapons. So no, you can't use your Martial Arts to enhance your Wild Shaped forms' natural weapon attacks, but you would be able to used Unarmed Strikes while Wild Shaped with proficiency using the damage die provided by the class feature, using either your strength or dexterity for the attack, and allows you to take a bonus action for an additional unarmed strike.

[Yorrin]

You would keep the Unarmored Defense class feature, which from the monk would be more beneficial for the bear form because you keep your own Wisdom score and the bear has pretty low Dex. It doesn't stack, but replaces the armor value of the bear form. So a Monk1/Druid(moon)2 with 16 Wisdom would have an AC of 16 while in Brown Bear form (10 + 3 Con(bear form) + 3 Wis).

The Monk class feature allows you to use Martial Arts while unarmed, only wearing monk weapons(Simple + Shortsword), and not wearing armor or a shield.

The class feature only mentions unarmed strikes and monk weapons and has no mention of natural weapons. So no, you can't use your Martial Arts to enhance your Wild Shaped forms' natural weapon attacks, but you would be able to used Unarmed Strikes while Wild Shaped with proficiency using the damage die provided by the class feature, using either your strength or dexterity for the attack, and allows you to take a bonus action for an additional unarmed strike.

This is a reasonable ruling (and probably the way I'd do it myself), but keep in mind that it is a ruling, rather than being clearly RAW/RAI. For your table- ask your DM.

[Ferrin33]

This is a reasonable ruling (and probably the way I'd do it myself), but keep in mind that it is a ruling, rather than being clearly RAW/RAI. For your table- ask your DM.

Actually, I see this as the RAW, as you retain all your class features. And unless you consider natural weapons as being armed and natural armor as wearing armor then I don't see a problem with the reading of the rules as they are.

[Yorrin]

Actually, I see this as the RAW, as you retain all your class features. And unless you consider natural weapons as being armed and natural armor as wearing armor then I don't see a problem with the reading of the rules as they are.

Well, yes actually, you've hit upon the ambiguity exactly. We don't have any RAW on what natural armor or natural attacks are in 5e, so any ruling concerning them is strictly that- a ruling. As I said above- I agree with your ruling, but I wanted to make clear to those reading this thread that it wasn't the final word.

[mabriss lethe]

Aslo due to the particular wording of Flurry, you can gain extra unarmed attacks while wielding any weapon, not just monk weapons. (It keys off of "a melee attack" not "a melee attack with monk weapons" or something like that. I'm AFB.)

[Yorrin]

Aslo due to the particular wording of Flurry, you can gain extra unarmed attacks while wielding any weapon, not just monk weapons. (It keys off of "a melee attack" not "a melee attack with monk weapons" or something like that. I'm AFB.)

Good point, I had not noticed this! While you have to be wielding a monk weapon for the normal bonus action attack, flurry has no such stipulation. So you can spend your ki points freely on non-monk weapon flurries.

[Ferrin33]

Well, yes actually, you've hit upon the ambiguity exactly. We don't have any RAW on what natural armor or natural attacks are in 5e, so any ruling concerning them is strictly that- a ruling. As I said above- I agree with your ruling, but I wanted to make clear to those reading this thread that it wasn't the final word.

Fair enough. Although I'd like to read a dictionary reference of armed and wearing armor to be defined as a creature's natural attributes.


Aslo due to the particular wording of Flurry, you can gain extra unarmed attacks while wielding any weapon, not just monk weapons. (It keys off of "a melee attack" not "a melee attack with monk weapons" or something like that. I'm AFB.)

It keys off of your Attack action, not any specific type of attack, so ranged weapons would work too.

[HugeC]

...So a Monk1/Druid(moon)2 with 16 Wisdom would have an AC of 16 while in Brown Bear form (10 + 3 Con(bear form) + 3 Wis)...
A monk gets 10 + Dex mod + Wis Mod. A barbarian gets 10 + Dex mod + Con mod. Either way, you'd have AC 13 as a brown bear, assuming 16 Wis.

[Ferrin33]

A monk gets 10 + Dex mod + Wis Mod. A barbarian gets 10 + Dex mod + Con mod. Either way, you'd have AC 13 as a brown bear, assuming 16 Wis.

My bad! And here I was considering dipping a level in monk.. ^^

[Person_Man]

My current attempt to implement the rules as intended:

You use whatever AC calculation formula is most beneficial, using whatever your current Ability Scores are, but they don't stack. So if your Wildshape form has an AC of 17 (including Dex and natural armor) but your Monk Unarmored bonus has an AC of 19 (including the Wildshape form's Dex bonus and your Wisdom bonus), then you use 19. But not Dex + Wis + the poorly specified Natural Armor.
You may use your Martial Arts damage and abilities, or the Wildshape form's natural weapons and Multiattack (and other abilities directly related to using natural attacks), but not both during the same round.


On a related note, I've found that an awesome combination is actually having another character ride a Moon Druid, have the rider take Mounted Combat feat, and have both of them take Sentinel and/or the defender Fighting Style. That way enemies always have Disadvantage when attacking either of you in melee, Druid gets Evasion, and the rider often gets Advantage on attacks, and enemies often provoke opportunity attacks.

[Ferrin33]

My current attempt to implement the rules as intended:

You use whatever AC calculation formula is most beneficial, using whatever your current Ability Scores are, but they don't stack. So if your Wildshape form has an AC of 17 (including Dex and natural armor) but your Monk Unarmored bonus has an AC of 19 (including the Wildshape form's Dex bonus and your Wisdom bonus), then you use 19. But not Dex + Wis + the poorly specified Natural Armor.
You may use your Martial Arts damage and abilities, or the Wildshape form's natural weapons and Multiattack (and other abilities directly related to using natural attacks), but not both during the same round.


On a related note, I've found that an awesome combination is actually having another character ride a Moon Druid, have the rider take Mounted Combat feat, and have both of them take Sentinel and/or the defender Fighting Style. That way enemies always have Disadvantage when attacking either of you in melee, Druid gets Evasion, and the rider often gets Advantage on attacks, and enemies often provoke opportunity attacks.

That's genius, how would the action economy work out though with mounts? Are there any rules concerning it? I haven't bothered to look yet and making a list of something at the moment.

[Person_Man]

That's genius, how would the action economy work out though with mounts? Are there any rules concerning it? I haven't bothered to look yet and making a list of something at the moment.

There are rules in the PHB. Intelligent Mounts act on their own Initiative, and are not bound by their rider's decisions or actions.

The only down side is that if your Initiatives are spread out from each other, the rider might be stuck without enemies within melee range, since the rider doesn't want to get up and move off of the Druid mount. So the Rider has to Ready an Action to make a melee attack(s) when they come within reach of enemies, and rely on the Druid mount to move/attack/move/attack/etc as needed. Alternatively or in addition, the rider could use TWF with thrown weapons (so that you can use melee or thrown as needed), and/or could carry a weapon in one hand and use spells with the free hand (or the Warcaster Feat).

Rogue in particular loves the Moon Druid mount, because you basically always qualify for Sneak Attack and have an easy time getting a Reaction attack (and thus a second Sneak Attack), plus Evasion + Mounted Combat benefits + Uncanny Dodge + onion druid make you ridiculously hard to kill. (Though you'll rarely end up using Cunning Action).