Goblinoids and friends of Goblinoids - Who are they?

[DM Nate]

I have this idea kicking around in the back of my mind for a potential upcoming campaign. It would involve requiring everyone to roll up a goblinoid-type character, in a "Let's play the horde of David Bowie's Goblin King" sort of feel.

My searches haven't turned up much for "official" playable goblinoids. So far, I have:

True Goblinoids

Goblin
Hobgoblin
Bugbear
Varag


That's not a lot of options, and the Bugbear Hobgoblin seems the natural choice for anything that's not a rogue.

I'm attempting to compile a list of creatures that might also live in the same ecology as goblins, and hence be plausible choices for playable characters. Specifically, I'm playing with the idea of having the group start in a colony in a dormant volcano, spending their life crafting weapons from precious iron. They might also be naturally psionic and ultimately discover they're in Athas, or some such. What would fit that theme? So far, I have:

Friends of Goblinoids:

Kobolds
Orcs (thinking more LOTR orcs than traditional D&D)
Lizardfolk
Minotaur
Pterran


I'd also like to flesh out the list so that players have options for races that boost mental stats, rather than just physical.

What are your ideas? Thanks for any suggestions!

[LibraryOgre]

Xvarts. Blues. Nilbogs. Tasloi. Meazels.

[RedWarlock]

There's also Bhukas from Sandstorm, and the Forestkith goblins from MM3. Probably a couple others out there.

Varags are my favorites, tho. Wish we would've gotten minis for them.

[DM Nate]

Xvarts. Blues. Nilbogs. Tasloi. Meazels.

Xvarts I'm aware of...what sourcebooks are the others from?

[Sartharina]

There's also Barghasts, and Worgs.

[DM Nate]

There's also Barghasts, and Worgs.

Yes, but they need to be playable races. Which means, somewhere, there need to be stats I can use or adapt.

[LibraryOgre]

Xvarts. Blues. Nilbogs. Tasloi. Meazels.


Xvarts I'm aware of...what sourcebooks are the others from?

Blues are from the Psionics handbook, I think. I know Nilbogs are from the original Fiend Folio, and I think Meazels are, too. Tasloi I first remember from the Monstrous Manual for 2e, and they show up in Baldur's Gate.

[Khedrac]

First off - to say "Playable races" we need to know which System you are talking about - and you will probably get a better answer in the appropriate sub-forum.

OK that said, there is a highly acclaimed Pathfinder module called "We Be Goblins" where(I think) everyone plays goblins. It even has a sequel.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Moved.

[DM Nate]

The Mod Wonder: Moved.

Thanks, Mod Guy!

[Greenish]

Xvarts. Blues. Nilbogs. Tasloi. Meazels.For 3.5, xvarts are in Dragon #339, blues in Expanded Psionics Handbook, and tasloi in Shining South. Not sure about the others.

Also, bugbears are a terrible, terrible race for PCs. They just suck.

[atemu1234]

For 3.5, xvarts are in Dragon #339, blues in Expanded Psionics Handbook, and tasloi in Shining South. Not sure about the others.

Also, bugbears are a terrible, terrible race for PCs. They just suck.

I don't think he's asking for how good they are, just if they have racial stats and LA + anything other than -.

[Greenish]

I don't think he's asking for how good they are, just if they have racial stats and LA + anything other than -.He mentioned in the OP that bugbears seem "the natural choice for anything that's not a rogue". I will not leave such an assertion unquestioned, whether or not it's the focus of the thread.

[Sian]

I don't think he's asking for how good they are, just if they have racial stats and LA + anything other than -.

He opined that they were the go-to race for everything not Rogue...

must have confused them with Hobgoblins which is quite reasonable if you either give them Level Adjustment +0, or let them buyoff.

otherwise theres Bakemono (OA) and Vril (Drow of the Underdark, note that their stats IIRC was lost in editing of the book and was errata'ed)

[Troacctid]

Unearthed Arcana has a bunch of variant goblins, all of which are in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm): air goblins, arctic goblins, aquatic goblins, desert goblins, and jungle goblins.

[Greenish]

For that matter, Frostburn has Snow Goblins. They have LA +1 for no adequately explained reason, but eh.

[Werephilosopher]

There's also Barghasts, and Worgs.

Yes, but they need to be playable races. Which means, somewhere, there need to be stats I can use or adapt.

Dragon Magazine #350 has worghests, a planetouched race descended from goblins and barghests.

[Judge_Worm]

Orcs-
Half-Orcs (0 LA)
Orcs (0 LA)
Orogs (dunno if LA)

That's the one's I can think of

Trolls, Ogres, and Ogre Mages make decent player races if you allow buy off.
Theres umpteen different types of kobolds.
And don't forget you can always apply templates to goblinoids to make new races, and then there's size advancement.

[Greenish]

Theres umpteen different types of kobolds.Really? I can only recall standard kobolds and the environmental/elemental variants from UA, but by that logic, there are also umpteen different types of orcs and half-orcs.

[Judge_Worm]

Really? I can only recall standard kobolds and the environmental/elemental variants from UA, but by that logic, there are also umpteen different types of orcs and half-orcs.

Kobolds always struck me as having an absurd amount of environmental/elemental variants, almost as many as goblinoids.
There's also draconic variants, Viletooth Lizardfolk, Sunscorch Hobgoblin and I could've sworn kobolds have one too.

Edit: I stand corrected, just glimpsed through most of the 3.x material from WoTC.
Kobolds have Arctic, Aquatic, Regular, Desert, Jungle, Earth. (I thought it was more).
Goblins have Dekanter (Faerûn I believe), Jungle, Bhuka, Air, Regular, Snow, Ice or Arctic (or maybe both), Forestkith, Aquatic, Desert, Worg, Barghest, Hobgoblin (regular), Sunscorched, Fire, Varag, Reptilian (as an example in SS), Bugbear (regular), Insectile (as an example in SS). SS=savage species.
There might be more. Most competent sources: MM I-V, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Frostburn, UA, Eberron, Forgotten Realms

[Greenish]

Kobolds always struck me as having an absurd amount of environmental/elemental variants, almost as many as goblinoids.I'm still drawing a blank, could you point me to any outside UA?


There's also draconic variants, Viletooth Lizardfolk, Sunscorch Hobgoblin and I could've sworn kobolds have one too.Nope, kobolds don't have a dragonblooded subrace. Orcs do, though.

[nedz]

I know Nilbogs are from the original Fiend Folio. Tasloi I first remember from the Monstrous Manual for 2e, and they show up in Baldur's Gate.

Nilbogs are an old school joke/challenge monster — definitely not playable.

Tasloi live in Jungles.

[Curbstomp]

Unearthed Arcana has several variants of Goblinoid. Dragon Magic also has one.

[Heliomance]

Killoren, from RotW, maybe?

[Greenish]

Killoren, from RotW, maybe?Hmm, fey and goblin is a weird pairing in D&D, but almost a given in folklore and fairytales.

[edit]: I admit I was going to ask what you're smoking before I made the connection.

[DM Nate]

He opined that they were the go-to race for everything not Rogue...

must have confused them with Hobgoblins which is quite reasonable if you either give them Level Adjustment +0, or let them buyoff.

otherwise theres Bakemono (OA) and Vril (Drow of the Underdark, note that their stats IIRC was lost in editing of the book and was errata'ed)

I may simply be misreading the monster/race description from the SRD.

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm), the Bugbear has an LA +1, but receives 3 free levels of humanoid (giving it 3 extra HD, +2 BAB, saves, skills, and 2 feats). It also has three positive stat modifiers.

This interpretation is supported by the fact that, as a CR 2 monster, the entry already has all these modifiers applied.

Am I missing something here?

[Greenish]

Am I missing something here?Those are not free levels. They're levels. A 1st level bugbear wizard is a 5th level character (but can still only cast measly 1st level spells).

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).


[Edit]: PS. that link there? That's going to be in the test.

[DM Nate]

Those are not free levels. They're levels. A 1st level bugbear wizard is a 5th level character (but can still only cast measly 1st level spells).

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook).

According to that link, it's technically a 4th-level character whose ECL is 5, but whatever.

Why is the monster just a CR 2 then if it has 3 HD and appropriate feats/BAB/skills/etc?

[atemu1234]

According to that link, it's technically a 4th-level character whose ECL is 5, but whatever.

Why is the monster just a CR 2 then if it has 3 HD and appropriate feats/BAB/skills/etc?

That, my friend, is the ultimate question. Probably because you get to choose its stats, roll for them, etc.

All in all, the LA system is quite broken. But, hey, there's no other way in 3.5 to balance monstrous PCs.

Of course, some of them are just there to penalize players who want to play a "nonstandard" race.

[Greenish]

According to that link, it's technically a 4th-level character whose ECL is 5, but whatever.Granted. Sloppy terminology isn't WotC's sole privilege.


Why is the monster just a CR 2 then if it has 3 HD and appropriate feats/BAB/skills/etc?Because Humanoid RHD is terrible, weaker than any class levels bar commoner (yes, other NPC classes are better than Humanoid RHD). Also see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice), but remember that CR is pretty much selected at random and doesn't always accurately represent the challenge a creature provides.

[ShurikVch]

Norker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norker)

Ravenloft Gazetteer vol. V have Goblin Beast template

Also, Ravenloft have Goblyns (who are not even goblinoids, but their name, looks, and behavior...)

[Oddman80]

On a side note, I have been playing a Bard as David Bowie for the last couple of months. I worked it that he is actually a half elf from the Forgotten Realms. A musical prodigy, he was given a blink shirt as a young adult, as a birthday present. It actually transferred him to our world where he gained initial fame using his birth name, Ziggy Stardust.

After years of stardom, and the adoption of the more Earth-like name of David Bowie, he returned to the Forgotten Realms where he found he missed the fandom he had on earth. Sadly, the shirt no longer worked, and he couldn't return. The lack of reverence by the people of his home world drove him to a dark place... He used his high charisma to take control of a gang of Goblins using an alias of Jereth. It was during this dark chapter of his life he discovered his penchant for the arcane arts, and how it could be funneled into his music.

Having been shown the err of his ways, he now has set out with a number of his weekly poker-game buddies who all want to leave a positive mark on the realm as part of their bucket lists...


Ok... Back to the main discussion. I just wanted to share.

[DM Nate]

Norker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norker)

Ravenloft Gazetteer vol. V have Goblin Beast template

Also, Ravenloft have Goblyns (who are not even goblinoids, but their name, looks, and behavior...)

I found a playable version of the Norker in Dragon #343. The +5 to natural armor is nice; thanks.

The "Goblin Beast" template is interesting, though it can only be applied to animals or vermin. Otherwise, the change to d10 HD and addition of 2 extra HD, along with 4 positive stat modifiers, would require more than a LA 0.

Goblyns are thematically really interesting, and I think I'll include them just cause they're so cool. I'll change the name to something like "Feastling" or something, to differentiate.

I'm also considering reskinning other small races like Lesser Deep/Desert Gnomes, Tieflings, or even Drow to give my players spellcasting options. Any suggestions on that front?

[Troacctid]

Goblins aren't all that lacking in spellcasting options, really. Air goblins work if you need Cha, and if you don't, standard or arctic goblins should suit your purposes just fine. I think you could get away with removing the LA from blues too.

[DM Nate]

What sourcebook are Blues in?

[Troacctid]

Expanded Psionics Handbook IIRC? They're in the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm)

[DM Nate]

Oh right, those guys. They'd be perfect, actually, if I do go forward with making this a predominantly psionic campaign.

[ShurikVch]

Adventure Into the Dragons' Lair have Grodd Goblins. They are immune to attacks of Shadows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm), and Grodd Goblin Adept can
rebuke or command shadows as if she were a cleric.

[Marnath]

Yes, but they need to be playable races. Which means, somewhere, there need to be stats I can use or adapt.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, given that both creatures appear in the monster manual. You subtract 10 from even Abilities and 11 from odd ones to get your racial attribute scores. As the DM, the LA is meaningless to you if you don't care to use it. Which you shouldn't, since they're already wasting a lot of levels on racial hit dice.

[DM Nate]

That's...not really how playable races work.

[Marnath]

That's...not really how playable races work.

Let me rephrase that. You are the DM. If you want them to be able to play cool stuff like that, LET THEM. The rules are a suggestion.

[Blackhawk748]

Might I also recommend Gnolls and Flinds as "goblin allies", though generally most races with RHD will need to be tweaked. Personally i think Bugbears are ok, as long as your not playing a caster, as they do get decent stats, its just a lot to take at once. May want to consider dropping their LA though, as RHD and LA together are just painful.

[Greenish]

Personally i think Bugbears are ok, as long as your not playing a caster, as they do get decent stats, its just a lot to take at once.Humanoid RHD are painful, though, and compared to their peers*, the stats are rather boring and tame.


*The "3 RHD, +1 LA" club boasts such members as Marrulurk and non-psionic Thri-Kreen. Both of which are Monstrous Humanoids, it should be added, with full BAB and two good saves.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree that those are better, thus why i recommended knocking off the LA, or maybe one RHD. As i've found that that makes them a bit better choice.

[Greenish]

I agree that those are better, thus why i recommended knocking off the LA, or maybe one RHD. As i've found that that makes them a bit better choice.Drop all the RHD and they're worth the LA (maybe tone them down a bit, even). RHD screws over skilled characters extra hard and is otherwise annoying.

[Blackhawk748]

Well lets see, +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +3 nat armor, +4 on Move Silently. That seems like a REALLY good La +1, maybe LA +2 though.

[Afgncaap5]

I'm just going to guess that the Dekanter Goblins (+4 LA with 2 RHD) is right out as a good idea for this...

[Blackhawk748]

I'm just going to guess that the Dekanter Goblins (+4 LA with 2 RHD) is right out as a good idea for this...

Those look awesome, but ow that LA

[Greenish]

Well lets see, +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, +3 nat armor, +4 on Move Silently.I wouldn't dismiss Scent, either. Dropping Str to +2 (and maybe Con bonus entirely) and NA to +1 brings them pretty close to things like goliaths, zenythri, poison dusk lizardfolk and other decent LA +1's.

Alternatively, if they had Monstrous Humanoid RHD they'd make for decent beatsticks, though skilled characters and people starting at lowest levels would still be left wanting.

[Blackhawk748]

I have no idea how i missed scent, thats a fairly nice ability by itself.

[DM Nate]

Let me rephrase that. You are the DM. If you want them to be able to play cool stuff like that, LET THEM. The rules are a suggestion.

If that is what you are saying, then yes, I agree. Homebrew settings and campaigns are resilient enough to take nonstandard stuff.

[ShurikVch]

Book Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene have Shashyf Goblins. They have slight build for purpose of fitting into one square, and aid another to attack

[Blackhawk748]

Book Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene have Shashyf Goblins. They have slight build for purpose of fitting into one square, and aid another to attack

I am ashamed that i missed this as i love KoK

[atemu1234]

That's...not really how playable races work.

Actually, yes, the subtract 10/11 rule actually is how it works, according to Savage Species. With level adjustment based off of abilities.

[DM Nate]

Actually, yes, the subtract 10/11 rule actually is how it works, according to Savage Species. With level adjustment based off of abilities.

Ah, Savage Species. I generally stay away from that book, so I see both sides of the issue.

[Greenish]

Ah, Savage Species. I generally stay away from that book, so I see both sides of the issue.The "-10/11" for determining ability score bonuses is the standard method, though.

As for adjucating LA, you'd probably be better off never having read what SS has to say about it.

[LOTRfan]

Let's see what I can find....

LOTRfan's Goblinoid Race and Ally Guide
From 3.X and Pathfinder.

Goblinoids
Bhuka: Small desert survivors, unusual among goblinoids for usually being good-aligned. (Sandstorm)
Blues (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm): Mutant goblin offspring with psychic powers.
Cave Lords: Ogre-sized goblinoids that can dominate lesser kin and cannibalize them for healing. (Bestiary of Krynn)
Darkling Snatcher: Solitary goblinoids who stalk children and small farm animals for food. (Monsters of Tellene)
Bugbears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) (and variants (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/bugbear)): Hulking yet sneaky raiders/killers who often bully smaller creatures into servitude.
Dekanters: Red-skinned goblins with rhinoceros-like horns. (Monsters of Faerûn)
Environmental Goblins: Vanilla goblins, for different environments. Kind of boring to me. (Unearthed Arcana)
Forest Kith: A race primitive goblin with ape-like characteristics. Known for their battle frenzies and ability to turn into a tree. (MM III)
Gobbers: Goblinoids from the Iron Kingdoms setting. Comes in two varieties; Gobber and Bogrin. (Monsternomicon)
Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm): Vanilla goblin, little mooks bullied by larger goblinoids.
Hobgoblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm): Vicious soldiers that conscript other goblinoids into vast armies.
Kijimuna (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/kijimuna): Red-headed goblin fisherfolk with a predilection for pranks and magically stealing fire.
Norkers: Resemble goblins or hobgoblins with an elephantine hide and nasty canine teeth. (Dragon 343)
Shashyfs: Spikey goblins that fight in pseudo-swarms. (Monsters of Tellene)
Slavering Gorger: Goblinoids that look like a fusion of bugbear and gnoll. They have a poisonous bite and aim for the throat. (Monsters of Tellene)
Varag: A race descended from a magical experiment that combined hobgoblins and dire wolves. (MM IV)
Vril: A race of goblins able to subtlety change the consistency of their flesh. Enslaved by the drow.*
Worghests: Goblins with a barghest somewhere in his/her ancestry.
*Sadly, the article they appeared in doesn't seem to be on the Wizard's site anymore

Pseudo-Goblinoids
Barghests (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm): Fiends that can shapeshift between wolf, goblin, and hybrid forms.
Goblin snakes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/goblin-snake): Small degenerate nagas with goblinoid faces.
Grindylow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/grindylow): Small aberrations that mix goblins and octopi the way merfolk mix humans and fish.
Ja Noi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/oni/oni-ja-noi): A race of oni, outsiders who incarnate into mortal forms. These guys take the form of hobgoblins.

Associated Humanoids
Drow: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#drow) Dark elves, often enslaves goblinoids.
Gnolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm): Savage hyena-like humanoids, often enslaves goblinoids.
Orcs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/orc.htm): Vanilla Tolkien evil race; often bullies goblins/gets bullied by hobgoblins.

Allied Monsters
Bonedrinkers: Undead monstrosities made exclusively from goblinoid corpses. (MM III)
Feral Yowlers: Displacer beasts warped by necromatic experiments. (MM III)
Goblin dogs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dog/goblin-dog): Mange-ridden rodents the size of dogs.
Guulvorgs: Huge-sized, magically modified worgs that serve hobgoblin masters. (MM V)
Worgs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/worg.htm): Intelligent wolf-like creatures, often allied with goblin tribes.
Rampagers: Think centaur, but with a blemmyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headless_men) rather than human torso. Hobgoblins love 'em. (MM II)
Twigjacks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/twigjack): Nasty Tiny fey creatures who wish to stop civilization at any cost. Often bullied into serving bugbears.

[Waker]

Well, they aren't Goblins, but you could adapt Gruwaars for your purposes. They were introduced in Dragon 317. A race of fey creatures that look like furry gremlins.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/Omnikar/900fe437cc8f7609f1e6abf9c3f121d3_zps54b98816.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Omnikar/media/900fe437cc8f7609f1e6abf9c3f121d3_zps54b98816.jpg.h tml)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/Omnikar/c07db88d7cff39bb2aa46370f7415e7f_zpsbe4c925f.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Omnikar/media/c07db88d7cff39bb2aa46370f7415e7f_zpsbe4c925f.jpg.h tml)

[Yogibear41]

Vril from drow of the underdark, also see the web page that has the missing info.

Barghest are technically playable by savage species, they have a +6 LA. And there is a monster class progression for them in Savage Species as well, page 159.

[atemu1234]

On a side note, I have been playing a Bard as David Bowie for the last couple of months. I worked it that he is actually a half elf from the Forgotten Realms. A musical prodigy, he was given a blink shirt as a young adult, as a birthday present. It actually transferred him to our world where he gained initial fame using his birth name, Ziggy Stardust.

After years of stardom, and the adoption of the more Earth-like name of David Bowie, he returned to the Forgotten Realms where he found he missed the fandom he had on earth. Sadly, the shirt no longer worked, and he couldn't return. The lack of reverence by the people of his home world drove him to a dark place... He used his high charisma to take control of a gang of Goblins using an alias of Jereth. It was during this dark chapter of his life he discovered his penchant for the arcane arts, and how it could be funneled into his music.

Having been shown the err of his ways, he now has set out with a number of his weekly poker-game buddies who all want to leave a positive mark on the realm as part of their bucket lists...


Ok... Back to the main discussion. I just wanted to share.

Tangential or not, that is epic.

Let me guess, he took Leadership (and then specialized in goblins)?

[ShurikVch]

Bestiary Of Krynn have Goblin, Cave Lord. Also, goblinoid-only template "Gurik Cha’ahl"

[DM Nate]

Tangential or not, that is epic.

Let me guess, he took Leadership (and then specialized in goblins)?

If he did not also grab Perform (Magic Dance) then I shall be most disheartened.

Also, LOTRfan, that is amazing. Exactly the sort of information I need to make a well fleshed-out setting. Thanks!

[LOTRfan]

Bestiary Of Krynn have Goblin, Cave Lord. Also, goblinoid-only template "Gurik Cha’ahl"

I didn't have my book on me, so I called Cave Lords "Goblin Kings" on my list (mostly because my initial reaction upon seeing the monster was "Did they really need to make a Great Goblin expy be a separate race of goblins?"), so I'll correct that now. Completely forgot about the Gurik Cha'ahl template, though.

[Shining Wrath]

I think Redcaps may count as goblinoid (MM3).