How to roleplay something that's (probably) smarter than you are.

[atemu1234]

I made a supposedly supra-intelligent gold dragon. It has Intelligence 30+, and I'm curious as to how to roleplay this, because (while I am, I hope, intelligent) I am not that intelligent. So, what do I do?

[Lo77o]

One of the things i do when i running NPC's or Monsters with 30+ Int, is use a bit more metagame knowledge then would ordinarily be acceptable. If they have that kind of Intelligence and is a prepared caster, you could always leave about half the prepared spell's open, and pick them as you go along. Chances are the NPC would have known something you didn't.

Now that is all the mechanical part of it. The personality of the NPC and how he reacts etc can be a bit tricky. Just keep in mind, that even if your surprised by what the players do, you NPC/Monster might not be, so at all times he might seem calm and collective.

[Know(Nothing)]

Something to fold in with high intelligence is the fact that dragons are very long-lived. It's one thing if a character is really smart, it's a whole new thing if they're that smart for ages. They have contingencies for their contingencies. They have seen it all, and many times. A group of adventurers shows up looking for treasure or xp? This guy was chewing up and spitting out stronger parties before they were born. He has learned from each encounter.

Let your party mistake this confidence for hubris. Illustrate, if necessary, that the dragon only tolerates their presence/lives as long as he wishes. If they can even find the dragon, it's because he wants to be found. If they live, it's because he wants them to. Something that smart and that experienced that wants to continue existing is not in the business of taking unnecessary risks with powerful adventurers unless he has them well under his thumb. Or claw.

[Segev]

Do you have areas of knowledge and expertise that allow you to grasp concepts which seem simple to you, but, if you talk about them to non-afficianados, get you glazed eyes and confused stares? Have you ever tried to teach something you know well, and thus grasp almost instinctively, to people who don't yet have the fundamentals?

Supra-high intelligence is kind-of like that, except that it lets you shortcut a lot of the "years of experience" needed to train oneself to grasp something. The smarter you are, the easier it is to apply existing knowledge and grasp new concepts and keep lots of details straight in formulating new understandings.

So play the super-intelligent as if they can put all the pieces together with minimal explanation. Have them draw inferences that you know to be correct due to your meta-game knowledge, but which lesser intellects would have difficulty coming up with. Occasionally have them make incorrect intuitive leaps, of course, but have them make fully-detailed leaps to complete pictures that they can test, reject, and refine based on new information very quickly.

One GM I knew estimated her intelligence to be equivalent to X in her chosen system, and would, for problem-solving, give herself N/X times the amount of time her NPC might have to ponder the problem, where N is the intelligence of the NPC. It's not perfect, but it helps in some cases.

But the key to ultra-intelligent creatures is to make them quick on the uptake and fast to come to well-reasoned conclusions. Their memories are sharp, their ability to call up details is immense, and they will put it together with new information to come up with new conclusions very fast.

Watch Eccleston and Tennet as the Doctor for some ideas; a good scene is Eccleston dealing with the aliens of London event, where he gets people to give him details they can recall they already know of the situation. Each detail "narrows it down!" a bit more until he isolates it to one possible situation.

[jedipotter]

Are you talking as a DM or a Player?

The DM side is easy: Metagame.

As a Player: Well, you can ''act smart''....

[Silva Stormrage]

Are you talking as a DM or a Player?

The DM side is easy: Metagame.

As a Player: Well, you can ''act smart''....

Correct on both accounts surprisingly enough. Though for the Players side I would similarly suggest reading guides and other tactical information regarding your class. Which I figure most people should do anyway but the extra knowledge should help you at least make smart choices.

[Phelix-Mu]

High Int, Low Wisdom: Talks a bunch about stuff no one else can understand.

Low Int, High Wisdom: Talks about stuff (sometimes incorrect), but knows when to shut up.

High Int, High Wisdom: Smiles understandingly.

Modified appropriately by Charisma.

Honestly, as a DM, sometimes you can have a creature make the biggest impression by body language, impressive gestures, and lack of dialogue, rather than dialogue.

For something that smart, I'd do some of the following-ish things:

- Characters arrive and give speech to impress dragon and request help with...Dragon interrupts them before they barely get started and points at the appropriate item, smiling knowingly.

- Characters arrive and make their spiel. Dragon then makes a short, wise speech, light on words. Players can roll Spot to tell that the dragon slept through their speech, but still knew what they wanted.

- Characters arrive with a question for the dragon to answer. Instead of just giving an answer, or doing what the characters want, the dragon responds with clever questions that help lead the party to the correct answer themselves, or to the knowledge of how to act without the help of the dragon. After all, those who can, teach. (Massively misquoted, no doubt.)

[Vogonjeltz]

I made a supposedly supra-intelligent gold dragon. It has Intelligence 30+, and I'm curious as to how to roleplay this, because (while I am, I hope, intelligent) I am not that intelligent. So, what do I do?

"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons."

how well your character learns is simulated by skill points/spells known, etc...

how well your character reasons could be simulated by bonuses to knowledge/search/disable device/appraise checks. If you feel the need to somehow go beyond that, asking the DM for Int checks to determine if this your character would reasonably think whatever idea you have to be a good one.

Ultimately even otherwise intelligent people have blind spots and weaknesses, so it's not a big deal if that 30 int dragon misses the boat, but the 8 int orc notices. Sometimes that just happens.

Beyond that, I suggest you check out the Sage personality Archetype from the PHB II, and the Erudite Personality Trait, also PHB II (pages 138 and 142, respectively).

[ace rooster]

Preparation. If this is a combat encounter then have their tactics thought out and on cards (As in actually think of some tactics, print cards, and have them in front of you so you remember). Make sure you have tactics prepared for every tactic the party has used, under the assumption that they have not been able to 'prepare' (ie no specific items or spells, though general responses from guides are in). Don't forget that int does not mean combat savvy, and dragons will always be arrogant. It might take them more than 12 seconds to realise that retreat is the best plan, so don't have them instantly run away from the party even though a int 30 warrior would see it after 6 seconds, but do not have them entirely above running away at all.

If it is not a combat encounter then your bigger problem is the charisma of 20. I'm not going to say you're not pretty, but you're not that pretty. :smalltongue:

[Azurefenrir]

I usually think of intelligence a little differently than just "Batman prepared".

For a real life example, imagine a superbly intelligent math professor. This person is probably much more intelligent than most normal people, being able to figure out problems that will make most people stare blankly and go "huh"? So, he has a much higher intelligence score than most people. Do you think he makes more contingencies about life's problems, lives more cautiously than most people, or even lives more efficiently than your average Joe working at a labor job? Probably not. The professor will probably do dumb things in life like any other person, have weird quirks that are in no way productive, lose his keys in the morning at times, forget where he left his wallet, and other minor stuff. Give the professor and the average Joe a problem, or make them learn a new mentally challenging skill, and you'll see the difference in intelligence shine through. Have them both be struck by lightning and both will probably die in the same way.

The point is - intelligence doesn't automatically equal paranoia, caution, or even basic efficiency. Having a high intelligence means that if you give the dragon a math problem, it will solve it in a few seconds. It means that the dragon can understand new ideas more easily, can master magic without too much trouble, and when given a problem, can come up with a thousand solutions with a minute of thinking. If we think of everything in terms of what someone with supernatural intelligence can potentially do, the dragon should have invented calculus, invented modern engineering, invented artificial intelligence, etc. The reason it doesn't? It's lazy, and all of that requires considerable work and study just like trying to think up every possible contingency to problems that might never happen maybe once in a thousand years. You are an ancient gold dragon, and those copies of PlayDrake ain't gonna read themselves. You don't have the time for all this preparation stuff.

And like that, high INT does not mean that the dragon has considered every potential problem. Just as a professor might think it's silly to go outside wearing some sort of lightning redirecting contraption all the time, a dragon might consider humans to not really be that big of a deal. It could trap its lair seven million times over and pay to carve five hundred different contingent spells on itself, but is there any reason to? It's presumably an elder dragon, which means that very few things in the world even threaten it anymore. Most humans are probably like ants to him now, and there's no reason why he should have to spend all that time just to defend against something that an ant might throw at him after a thousand years just because he's intelligent.

*

In my opinion, the best way to roleplay a high INT dragon is to make it have a solution when a problem is presented before him. It doesn't mean he can't be surprised; no amount of INT allows you to expect that halfling rogue flinging an iguana into your treasure room. Even with a ton of INT, the dragon won't be able to anticipate some of the crazier plans that PCs think of, so chances are, if you are really surprised by a antic, so would your math professor, engineering professor, or Einstein sitting in the same seat, and so would the 30+ INT dragon that's actually standing in front of the PCs. The solution may not always be applicable; sometimes, a high INT character will just be caught with their pants down with no tools with which to defend itself. If you suddenly jump Einstein with a gun while he's taking a stroll, he isn't going to suddenly pull out a quantum self-defense gadget out of nowhere. Similarly, a high INT gold dragon might be ill-prepared for a party of actually competent adventurers after a bunch of cannon fodder and idiots left his cave with their butts handed to them.

Is the dragon intended to be friendly or hostile? Gold dragons are usually good, so if it's friendly then the work is actually easier. It probably knows a lot of things - knowledge that it might share with the PCs if it feels like it - and whatever it doesn't know, it can figure out pretty quickly. For the most part, there's no reason that the dragon of 30 INT would otherwise act differently than a dragon of 18 INT. If it looks down on humans, it can still do so no matter the INT score. If it has an interest in garden gnome collecting, it can still have the same hobby at 30 INT however pointless it might seem. If it loves taking risks and the thrill of living life on the edge, no amount of INT is going to stop it. The biggest difference is that it can figure out stuff faster; in game, this means that you might ask the players to help you if you can't figure out something, which they should be more than willing to do for a friendly Gold dragon. It means better knowledge checks and maybe a more sagely tone. Feel free to metagame knowledge if you need to for this purpose.

Aside from that, don't do anything special. Especially don't overload it on contingencies unless if it has an immediate reason to have them or have it nullify PC actions just because of its INT.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you suddenly jump Einstein with a gun while he's taking a stroll, he isn't going to suddenly pull out a quantum self-defense gadget out of nowhere.

I don't know about your Einstein, but my Einstein ALWAYS pulls a quantum self-defense gadget out of nowhere.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

I don't think mental stats "scale" in quite the same way that the physical ones do. 25+ Int means you're smarter than the vast majority of people, but it doesn't mean that nothing can ever get past you ever again. A Pit Fiend has 26 but they get trounced by dumber adventurers all the time.

I think that, aside from the game statistics like saving throws and bonus spells etc., that the mental stats hit diminishing returns far more quickly than the others.

There's also the fact that, even if you have 500 Int, you still can't make knowledge checks in a field you're not trained in. Sure, getting trained is easy, but to here this forum tell it you should be able to revolutionize any field of study simply by pondering it for a few seconds at those levels.

[Fax Celestis]

High Int, Low Wisdom: Talks a bunch about stuff no one else can understand.

Low Int, High Wisdom: Talks about stuff (sometimes incorrect), but knows when to shut up.

High Int, High Wisdom: Smiles understandingly.

Modified appropriately by Charisma.

Honestly, as a DM, sometimes you can have a creature make the biggest impression by body language, impressive gestures, and lack of dialogue, rather than dialogue.

For something that smart, I'd do some of the following-ish things:

- Characters arrive and give speech to impress dragon and request help with...Dragon interrupts them before they barely get started and points at the appropriate item, smiling knowingly.

- Characters arrive and make their spiel. Dragon then makes a short, wise speech, light on words. Players can roll Spot to tell that the dragon slept through their speech, but still knew what they wanted.

- Characters arrive with a question for the dragon to answer. Instead of just giving an answer, or doing what the characters want, the dragon responds with clever questions that help lead the party to the correct answer themselves, or to the knowledge of how to act without the help of the dragon. After all, those who can, teach. (Massively misquoted, no doubt.)

Because intelligence equates to smugness? :smallconfused:

[AvatarVecna]

There's also the fact that, even if you have 500 Int, you still can't make knowledge checks in a field you're not trained in. Sure, getting trained is easy, but to here this forum tell it you should be able to revolutionize any field of study simply by pondering it for a few seconds at those levels.

It may be true that having a 500 Int and no ranks in Knowledge skills means you can't make checks for that Knowledge skills, but all sentient creatures gain skill points based at partially on their Int.

30+ Int shows a vast and deep knowledge base. My suggestion for playing a super-smart NPC like this one is to actually plan out their skill points; give them at least a single rank in all Knowledge skills, and probably more for fields they can excel in; give them ranks in the social skills, so they can interact with others in a meaningful, mechanically powerful way.

Next, roleplay both the vast, deep knowledge, the supernatural insight, and the social grace to the hilt. This is a dragon: they've been around forever, and they've seen it all; they're beyond the abilities of most medium or smaller cities to affect at all, much less hold off; there's a short list of creatures that are actual threats, and you can bet the supra-intelligent dragon knows where the nearest off each would be, and has a plan for if they come at it.

It's not just their supra-intelligence that shows they should be prepared for everything; it's the combination of high Int, high Wis, and common sense on the part of the DM. Have something ready for the tactics that can be reasonably expected, and metagame on occasion to have them prepared for some more out-of-the-box thinking. Only the truly out-there stuff should throw this dragon for a loop.

[Psyren]

Only the truly out-there stuff should throw this dragon for a loop.

But dragons get thrown for loops all the time; that's the problem. They can't even overcome their baser magpie instincts. Clearly something is not computing with the mental stats.

[Seclora]

My table has had this discussion before, many, many times. Really bothers some people.

Personally, I like to explain it for PCs as 'They just thought of, in 6 seconds, what I spent the hour it's been since my last turn coming up with.'

[Shining Wrath]

What sort of encounter will the PCs have with the dragon?

If it's a hostile encounter, a dragon (even if lazy) is going to be bored sitting around its lair for centuries. There are traps that are triggered by bypassing the other traps that you only notice if you first remove the other, other traps. And multiple escape routes that a dragon can use that you probably can't (such as flying through an AMF).

If it's non-hostile, and the PCs are seeking information, have a speech prepared for the dragon. Not necessarily big words, but a few glancing references that show the dragon is giving you the Reader's Digest Condensed Version of something that it knows more about than all of you put together, e.g., "After Ignatz the Unquenchable, using fire spells on balsa wood ghola was regarded as problematic, but I suggest that you ...".

[Dalebert]

As a Player: Well, you can ''act smart''....

Is it just me or did anyone else suddenly hear the theme to the show Get Smart and picture a character trying to act smart and failing miserably?

[Psyren]

Is it just me or did anyone else suddenly hear the theme to the show Get Smart and picture a character trying to act smart and failing miserably?

I picture this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html)

[heavyfuel]

Are you talking as a DM or a Player?

The DM side is easy: Metagame.

Yup. As a DM I just make these beings pretty much omniscient in regards to plots and stuff.

Also, if you're a player, ask the DM for Int checks to realize things you, the player, wouldn't be able to realize. A DC 20 for things that are tough but not too tough to figure out. Up to maybe a DC 35 for things that should be almost impossible to know

[Phelix-Mu]

Because intelligence equates to smugness? :smallconfused:

No, because dragon equates to smugness. If the dragon isn't in some way feeling superior to the others, even if in a compassionate and thoughtful way, then the dragon isn't acting very draconic. The primary flaw of all dragons, far beyond greed, is pride. They believe, perhaps rightly so, that they are the best, that the world is their oyster, and that everyone else will naturally recognize this. Individuals may vary on this point, but all dragons are essentially ego-centric. This accounts for Psyren's gripe about their magpie instincts; they could overcome them if they wanted to, but they enjoy it so much, and how could anything bad ever happen to them, so bad that they couldn't just curbstomp it away?

For the more general case of a smart person, smart people don't have to portray their intelligence all of the time. Often, others aren't going to understand, may belittle the brainiac for being a genius (as if it's somehow a bad thing), or it's more efficient to go simple over sophisticated. Obviously, a smart character should have tactics or solutions at their command in clinch situations, when everyone is in a pinch, but the rest of the time there isn't really a need to flaunt it (as that often backfires without Cha to back it up).

That is all I was saying.

[Fax Celestis]

No, because dragon equates to smugness. If the dragon isn't in some way feeling superior to the others, even if in a compassionate and thoughtful way, then the dragon isn't acting very draconic. The primary flaw of all dragons, far beyond greed, is pride. They believe, perhaps rightly so, that they are the best, that the world is their oyster, and that everyone else will naturally recognize this. Individuals may vary on this point, but all dragons are essentially ego-centric. This accounts for Psyren's gripe about their magpie instincts; they could overcome them if they wanted to, but they enjoy it so much, and how could anything bad ever happen to them, so bad that they couldn't just curbstomp it away?

According to what, exactly?

[Psyren]

According to what, exactly?

Draconomicon 25, "Outlook and Psychology":


A dragon's longevity is perhaps the major source of its vanity and arrogance. A single dragon can watch a parade of beings come and go during its long life. How can a dragon consider such creatures as anything more than inferiors when it watches so many of them enter life, grow old, and die? And all the while, the dragon grows stronger and more powerful, proving its superiority (if only in its own mind). Dragons hold at bay the powerful entity of time, whereas lesser crearures succumb and fade with nary a struggle. With such power at its command, is it any wonder that a dragon believes itself to be the very pinnacle of creation?

They are basically pride made flesh, even the good ones.

[Fouredged Sword]

Skill checks are a great way to keep it inside the rules.

They get always get at least a (normally max) rank in knowledge local. They get to learn about the party through knowledge local checks at player HD+15 to correctly identify them. That gold dragon has 38 ranks and a +10 int mod. He takes 10 and gets a 58, so he knows 4 interesting and useful things about each party member, from specific immunities they lack to the key spells they have prepped for the day.

He makes a sense motive check at 30-50 or so. He already knows their plan the moment he sees them for the first time. He can understand the motivations behind their actions from the instant he lays eyes on them.

[Madhava]

If you were on a flight, & the person seated next to you had an IQ of 180, do you think you'd know? Let's assume this person's career or education didn't, at any point, become the conversation topic (these are misleading anyway).

Agree that smugness is a poor representation of intelligence. Smugness usually represents insecurity. The dragon who acts smug is afraid of who it's speaking to. A dragon doesn't posture and act smug to a farmer it's about to devour, nor to the farmer's cow.

Keep in mind that an intelligence rating represents memory, & a capacity for learning. Preparedness is moreso a function of wisdom.

[Fax Celestis]

Draconomicon 25, "Outlook and Psychology":



They are basically pride made flesh, even the good ones.

I don't see why that means the dragon has to be a smug prick. One can be condescending in a "you are but pets, but I like pets because you're adorable and make me feel powerful" sort of way. Or a Jane Goodall sort of thing: "these creatures with their tiny, bright lives are fascinating". Being superior and knowing you're superior doesn't automatically make you a jerk, especially if objectively you are superior.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't see why that means the dragon has to be a smug prick. One can be condescending in a "you are but pets, but I like pets because you're adorable and make me feel powerful" sort of way. Or a Jane Goodall sort of thing: "these creatures with their tiny, bright lives are fascinating". Being superior and knowing you're superior doesn't automatically make you a jerk, especially if objectively you are superior.

I would just like to interject that smugness is a word you used, Fax. I used it again because nothing about dragons says they are anything less than totally aware of their superiority, even to their occasional detriment (like any good vice, pride is a handicap from time to time). "Smiling knowingly" doesn't have to be smug, it can just be arch and reassuring, like the dragon is on your side, even if you aren't even totally sure of what it is you are doing (and the dragon is sure, or believes he/she is sure). I certainly didn't mean to imply that the dragon needs to act like a prick just to show they are smart. Sorry if it came across like that.

And a bit of smugness doesn't equal prick, either. So dragons can be smug and self-assured without being pricks, as you say. Or one can be a prick. To their mind, what is anyone going to do about it? With a high Charisma, though, a dragon could probably pull off being a total jerk and still earn people's respect/admiration/awe/fear, as appropriate.

Again, my basic point was that a smart npc doesn't have to demonstrate it at every instance, as much because it isn't always useful as because it isn't always applicable.

[Psyren]

I don't see why that means the dragon has to be a smug prick. One can be condescending in a "you are but pets, but I like pets because you're adorable and make me feel powerful" sort of way. Or a Jane Goodall sort of thing: "these creatures with their tiny, bright lives are fascinating". Being superior and knowing you're superior doesn't automatically make you a jerk, especially if objectively you are superior.

None of those are strong enough to match up with the terms used in draconomicon - terms like "arrogance," "vanity," "inferiors," and "pinnacle of creation." To get to that level of self-centeredness... yeah, they kind of do have to be smug pricks. There's nothing wrong with it; in fact, I'd argue it's by design, because it gives the party very good reason to limit their association with any dragon - even the most helpful metallic - and thus not come to rely on it as a crutch.



Agree that smugness is a poor representation of intelligence. Smugness usually represents insecurity. The dragon who acts smug is afraid of who it's speaking to. A dragon doesn't posture and act smug to a farmer it's about to devour, nor to the farmer's cow.

No - to those two, he wouldn't even dignify them with conversation, any more than you would talk to the lobster on your plate.

[Tragak]

I don't see why that means the dragon has to be a smug prick. One can be condescending in a "you are but pets, but I like pets because you're adorable and make me feel powerful" sort of way. Or a Jane Goodall sort of thing: "these creatures with their tiny, bright lives are fascinating". Being superior and knowing you're superior doesn't automatically make you a jerk, especially if objectively you are superior. Same here. That's exactly why, when I RP Good dragons, I tend to draw my inspiration from The Doctor :smalltongue:

[Ettina]

Not as extreme as that, but in the campaign I'm DMing, one character has all mental stats 20+. I help that character act smarter by throwing in rolls for her to figure out stuff a normal person in that situation wouldn't know.

[Dalebert]

I think some folks are getting raw intelligence mixed up with specific skills that are intelligence-based. Detective work, for instance, is a skill that anyone can develop. Presumably someone with a high INT would have a built-in bonus that also kind of represents their ability to pick up new skills quickly. A lot of what people are describing sounds like skills that an intelligent person could develop but they don't have it automatically.

Did anyone watch Psych? The guy is so brilliant on picking up certain details, knowing what details to look for and how they inter-relate and so forth, that he seemed psychic to an untrained person. But he was trained to do this. His training was a big part of the show. He was probably quite smart but it wasn't automatic. There were plenty of people as smart as him who couldn't put all those details together to figure things out. The same thing would apply to something like battle strategy and "contingencies for their contingencies" and so forth. There are incredibly brilliant people out there who applied their talent to engineering nuclear reactors or writing really complex software applications. They could be super geniuses but they never applied themselves to other skill sets so they simply don't have much in that department.

I think it's just something to consider before you make every really smart character into a nearly unbeatable Sherlock Holmes or a Professor Moriarty on the basis of a high INT score alone.

[ericgrau]

You can use DM knowledge to help simulate the dragon's int, because while int doesn't necessarily mean knowledge it does mean that he can figure out quite a lot and he has had plenty of time to do it in. A calculator, google and so on may be helpful too. At the same time his smugness may mean that there are some topics he knows nothing about since he doesn't care to look into them. OTOH some things that he doesn't know at all he may instantly figure out on the spot simply by observing and putting the pieces together. Provided that all the pieces are in front of him.

I agree that int shouldn't, however, prevent the dragon from being surprised by the PC's presence or random plans. He may have defenses against all the common spells, scry and die tactics, etc., simply from being assaulted before and from having an in depth understanding of magic, but other random stuff can surprise him no matter how smart he is. He may have figured out a lot about the world in general and using that kind of meta-knowledge is nice, but not the PCs in particular and that kind of meta-knowledge is heavy-handed DMing.

[The Insanity]

You can take some lessons from politicians.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Keep in mind, A high int means a lot of ideas and knowledge, high wis means good ideas.

a 30 int character is going to know a huge amount of ways to go about doing something, but beyond that, may not pick the best option.

[atemu1234]

You can take some lessons from politicians.

Deny everything?