Adult Gold Dragon with VoP...

[atemu1234]

I put an Adult Gold Dragon against a party of 16th level, evil adventurers. Bad enough. But I made the mistake of giving it Sacred Vow / of Poverty. It wiped the floor with them, basically (most of them couldn't even hit it) and it was a TPK apart from the wizard, who teleported away.

Question #1: Where did I go horribly wrong?
Question #2: How do I fix this without using the dreaded retcon?

[Greenish]

#1 We don't know what happened, so how could we know what went wrong?
#2 They're level 16, death shouldn't be an insurmountable obstacle. It wasn't even TPK. If they can't figure out anything, have a fiend or something toss them back to material for a Quest.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A few more details would be helpful. What classes did the party have? How many people? What's your general level of optimization? Otherwise the answers are pretty much reduced to the following.

1:Your players are either very unoptimized or badly prepared. Did they have fire resistance? Fear immunity? Some way to deal with a flying enemy? Some kind of defense against melee (AC, miss chances, immediate action teleports)? What exactly did the dragon do that killed them all?
No matter what happened, your players just weren't paranoid enough. :smalltongue:

2: If the wizard can salvage some body party, buy a Resurrection for the divine caster, if the party has one. If he can't get any body parts he'll have to spring for a casting of True Resurrection at the nearest temple of an evil god he's on good terms with. If he even wants to, since he's evil. Otherwise it's reroll time.

[Zubrowka74]

VOP means no treasure? Dang, you're one mean DM!

[Lightlawbliss]

My first question is why they were fighting a dragon with VOP? What could possibly convince them to enter a resource intensive fight that HAS NO LOOT!! (Ignoring the loot value of a dragon's corpse)

[georgie_leech]

Would the Dragon have had it's hoard in a usable, equipment-based fashion for the fight? Because that also probably would have been an extreme challenge. Most of VoP's vulnerabilities are a result of gaps in capabilities, most of which Dragons already have anyway by virtue of having Natural Weapons, Flight, and Sorcerer Casting. I can't recall where I saw it, but I remember an analysis of VoP's benefit's that showed it was technically more expensive to replicate all the various bonuses with gear; WBL tends to be better organised though. So For a Dragon that has no obvious weaknesses that need equipment to shore up, it's almost a straight buff.

Yes, proper WBL-mancy is more powerful. In my experience though Dragons tend to be fought as is rather than with giant suits of Armor and unusually large Rings and Mouthpick Weapons or casting from wands/Scrolls.

[Mr.Moron]

EDIT: Nvm. Didn't read "Evil". I can't think of anything in that case.

[Shining Wrath]

It is entirely contrary to the nature of dragons, even good aligned ones, to take the Vow of Poverty. That's like a succubus with Vow of Chastity. It takes quite the story for that to make sense. But setting that aside ...

Did the party go up against a dragon without any attempt to learn about the dragon? Because going up against a Big Good Exalted Guy without knowing what it can do is a recipe for disaster. Any 16th level party should have known they were in for a challenge.

So then, did you consider what the capabilities of the party were likely to be against this dragon? If they couldn't even hit its AC, you should have known that and adjusted accordingly

[VoxRationis]

Bunch of evil guys ran up against a gold dragon that killed them while defending itself. No problem there.

[Rubik]

It is entirely contrary to the nature of dragons, even good aligned ones, to take the Vow of Poverty. That's like a succubus with Vow of Chastity. It takes quite the story for that to make sense. But setting that aside ...Isn't there a class that allows a dragon to gain divine ranks if it eats all of its hoard? It eats its whored hoard and then eschews its penchant for collecting shiny things, recognizing it as a personal weakness.

[dysprosium]

Isn't there a class that allows a dragon to gain divine ranks if it eats all of its hoard? It eats its whored hoard and then eschews its penchant for collecting shiny things, recognizing it as a personal weakness.

Dragon Ascendant in the Draconomicon -- it's the capstone class ability though.

[Rubik]

Dragon Ascendant in the Draconomicon -- it's the capstone class ability though.Or 3 levels of illithid savant and Gate/Planar Binding/Ice Assassin...

[Pan151]

Isn't there a class that allows a dragon to gain divine ranks if it eats all of its hoard? It eats its whored hoard and then eschews its penchant for collecting shiny things, recognizing it as a personal weakness.

Yes, there exists one (dragon ascendant).

But it doesn't in an way prevent the dragon from raising a new one...

[dysprosium]

Or 3 levels of illithid savant and Gate/Planar Binding/Ice Assassin...

That really does solve every problem in the world doesn't it?

OP: If the party went up against something like that without doing any homework/preparations/divinations beforehand, then they kind of get what they deserved. An adult gold dragon with 23 HD is going to have all of the benefits of the Vow of Poverty as listed in the Book of Exalted Deeds based in its hit dice alone.

On the other hand, see what the players themselves want to do with the situation. It may be possible that they are open to new scenarios or new characters.

[ace rooster]

While VOP improves the numbers on a dragon, the stats of a dragon are already overwhelming. Their weaknesses are not really covered by VOP, specifically their touch AC is only improved by 3, and they do not get any extra immunities (except from discern alignment, wow). Freedom of movement is powerful but really not limited to VOP (and who grapples a dragon anyway). They are still not immune to ability damage, negative levels, shivering touch, forcecage, ...

What you have made is an combat god, with +5 natural attacks, boosted AC, and boosted abilities. Getting in a straight fight with it is horrendous. It is a dragon, so this is fine. Getting in a straight fight with it should be horrendous.

[sideswipe]

hey its got vow of poverty, we all know its weakness, just kite it from the air....... oh wait.....

[Extra Anchovies]

What you have made is an combat god, with +5 natural attacks, boosted AC, and boosted abilities. Getting in a straight fight with it is horrendous. It is a dragon, so this is fine. Getting in a straight fight with it should be horrendous.

That's a good point. The only time you should intentionally enter melee with a Huge-size, 33-Str, flying monster with a fire-damage breath weapon is then you yourself are of Huge size, have 33 Str, can fly, and are immune to fire. And at that point, it's not as much of a straight fight, because you're buffed to all heck and the dragon still hasn't cast any of its spells.

[WhamBamSam]

It is entirely contrary to the nature of dragons, even good aligned ones, to take the Vow of Poverty. That's like a succubus with Vow of Chastity. It takes quite the story for that to make sense. But setting that aside ...

Did the party go up against a dragon without any attempt to learn about the dragon? Because going up against a Big Good Exalted Guy without knowing what it can do is a recipe for disaster. Any 16th level party should have known they were in for a challenge.

So then, did you consider what the capabilities of the party were likely to be against this dragon? If they couldn't even hit its AC, you should have known that and adjusted accordinglySince VoP characters can carry food, and Dragons can eat metal, a VoP Dragon can keep a small hoard.


VOP means no treasure? Dang, you're one mean DM!I have a VoP Xorvintaal Rust Dragon with Binder levels sitting on the back burner for if I've ever got a high level party I really hate. Quickened Breath for free action rusting. Paimon's Dance of Death to bite everyone with Rusting Bite, Touch of the Golden Ice, and Dragon Toxin. No loot to replace the stuff it breaks, because screw you.

[sideswipe]

I have a VoP Xorvintaal Rust Dragon with Binder levels sitting on the back burner for if I've ever got a high level party I really hate. Quickened Breath for free action rusting. Paimon's Dance of Death to bite everyone with Rusting Bite, Touch of the Golden Ice, and Dragon Toxin. No loot to replace the stuff it breaks, because screw you.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/367/evilest.gif

[Zubrowka74]

I have a VoP Xorvintaal Rust Dragon with Binder levels sitting on the back burner for if I've ever got a high level party I really hate. Quickened Breath for free action rusting. Paimon's Dance of Death to bite everyone with Rusting Bite, Touch of the Golden Ice, and Dragon Toxin. No loot to replace the stuff it breaks, because screw you.

Wow, that's a LOT of love for your players!

[ericgrau]

I put an Adult Gold Dragon against a party of 16th level, evil adventurers. Bad enough. But I made the mistake of giving it Sacred Vow / of Poverty. It wiped the floor with them, basically (most of them couldn't even hit it) and it was a TPK apart from the wizard, who teleported away.

Question #1: Where did I go horribly wrong?
Question #2: How do I fix this without using the dreaded retcon?

Isn't a treasureless gold dragon even more rare than an evil gold dragon? That's where I'd say you really went horribly wrong.

But here's the mechanical explanation. gp-wise VoP is worth a little more than WBL at the expense of versatility, which is what often makes it a bit worse than WBL. But not by the hugely exaggerated amounts often discussed in forums. Monsters don't get full WBL and therefore they should never get VoP; it's way way too much power. They are trading away poor gear for major benefits, which should greatly raise their CR. Even triple standard treasure is less than WBL, plus many dragons carry much of that treasure in currency not combat useful magic items. So what you did was raise the CR further on an already difficult encounter. All it takes is a couple CR to change a hard fight into a potential TPK.

Question 2: Use the dreaded retcon. Monsters shouldn't ever have VoP in the first place and at best for some inexplicable reason the PCs will find that no other foe ever has VoP again, only the dragon. The other alternative is to treat the dragon like any other over CR'ed foe. Have him take on harder ambitions than the PCs for a while, delegating henchmen or scrying spells to keep tabs on the PCs in the meantime. Then the PCs level up a bit and beat him.... and then inexplicably no other foe ever has VoP again. Or if you do use such foes then simply raise their CR but I hope you are good at guessing how much to raise it on foes of varying treasure. All I can say is that it is somewhere in between their normal CR and their PC ECL, which is quite a wide range to guess in.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nonononono.

How you fight a VOP character is by signing over a nice piece of lakefront land to them. They lose all their VOP features and can't ever get them back.

[Rubik]

Nonononono.

How you fight a VOP character is by signing over a nice piece of lakefront land to them. They lose all their VOP features and can't ever get them back.Or make them open a door. Or stand on a carpet. Or sleep in a bed. Or stay in a house for any reason. Or look at a painting. Or trigger a trap.

They lose it all, forever.

[Sir Garanok]

Although goals and ideals vary among varieties, all dragons are covetous. They like to hoard wealth, collecting mounds of coins and gathering as many gems, jewels, and magic items as possible. Those with large hoards are loath to leave them for long, venturing out of their lairs only to patrol the immediate area or to get food. For dragons, there is no such thing as enough treasure. It’s pleasing to look at, and they bask in its radiance. Dragons like to make beds of their hoards, shaping nooks and mounds to fit their bodies. By the time a dragon matures to the age of great wyrm, hundreds of gems and coins may be imbedded in its hide.

If there is a dragon odd enough not to collect treasure he should be known for that trait.
So your party should have known there is no treasure.

If they did know and went on,well.....what where they thinking!!!

Besides that as a dm you should know your player's to-hit modifiers and strengths and act accordingly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If they did know and went on,well.....what where they thinking!!!

Besides that as a dm you should know your player's to-hit modifiers and strengths and act accordingly.

An Adult Gold Dragon is CR 16, so it's not that much of a stretch to expect a level 16 party to handily defeat one. VoP doesn't add that much difficulty and everything the dragon does is something that targets what should be standard defenses at that level.

Fire Breath? Fire isn't just the most commonly resisted type of damage, it's also the one most dealt by monsters. Get some cheap resistance at least if you're too stingy for immunity or a Ring of Evasion.
Strong melee? Ok, it has permanent True Seeing so a lot of miss chances are out. Incorporeality still works though, as does Blink.
Its spellcasting is weak. Pitiful even. Any buffs it had are almost guaranteed to fall to a dispel. Why isn't dispelling magic-using enemies standard procedure for those supposedly highly competent villains? Or even Antimagic Ray (with Assay Resistance if necessary).

Ok, so they failed at preperation. Tragic, but it happens. But surely such reknowned villains would have an escape plan? No? Some Shadow Hands of Shadow Walk/Stride/Blink (ultra cheap). One-use item of Teleport/Word of Recall/Plane Shift/Master Earth? Or were they all killed in the first round?

They apparently attacked an enemy they knew nothing about while badly equipped and without a backup plan. They failed. It's natural selection at work.

As a dm you should know by that level that your players apparently aren't really the planning type. Or the type to have an escape plan. Or in other words, that they pretty much fail at villainy. Maybe some kobolds the next time? Or halflings i suppose? What's the evil adventurer low-level cannonfodder mook of choice?:smallbiggrin:

*Yes, this post is slightly sarcastic. I'm aware that some tables play pretty low-op. I'm also of the opinion that high-level players should have at least some idea what they're doing, so i believe some mockery is justified.

[atemu1234]

The PCs are as follows (all level 16)
-All Vasharans (BoVD).
-A Dread Necromancer
-A Fighter (single-class)
-A Rogue (with 2 levels of fighter for bonus feats)
-A Wizard/Ur-Priest (MT build) (this is the one smart enough to have teleport prepared).

The fight started with the Dread Necromancer sending in cannon fodder, the fighter charging in, the rogue trying to flank, the Ur-Priest trying to heal/boost them. The Dragon used his breath weapon to take down the fodder then using claw and bite to quickly deal with the rogue (who has trouble grasping the idea of a Con penalty). Then he turned his attention to the fighter, (who, unfortunately, missed most of his attacks AND failed to do a lot of damage because he spent his feats boosting the Willing Deformity (Hands) he got at first level), which quickly dealt with the fighter. The Dread Necromancer refused to retreat (thinking that he could take the dragon for some reason) and this resulted in his death. Then, the Ur-Wizard (my nickname for him now) decided it was high time to haul ass out of that cave.

The cave itself was actually a multi-chambered temple to a good deity, to which the dragon had donated most of his gold (the cave IS the hoard, it's practically coated with gold pieces in reverence to his deity). They were ordered by a demon to not only kill the dragon but desecrate the temple, then allow demons to enter and take command.

[Spore]

Assuming they knew about the dragon they should've died. You could have said that the dragon was benevolent enough to try and turn those twisted souls into good (or at the very least neutral) with capturing them instead of killing them by banishing their souls to the realm of its god.

There you can set up some sort of trials - moral dilemmata to show them what happens after each and every of their evil choices. If you have reasonable roleplayers, they will at least think twice before choosing the evil option always. If you have great ones, they will actually come up with their motivations onto WHY they're evil and vile in the first place.

You've challenged their combat prowess and they've failed. Now challenge their roleplaying capability. Test their backstories, question their adventuring motivation.

Oh, and give the wizard some sort of nod and benefit for being the only one to live.

[Jacob.Tyr]

The PCs are as follows (all level 16)
-All Vasharans (BoVD).
-A Dread Necromancer
-A Fighter (single-class)
-A Rogue (with 2 levels of fighter for bonus feats)
-A Wizard/Ur-Priest (MT build) (this is the one smart enough to have teleport prepared).

The fight started with the Dread Necromancer sending in cannon fodder, the fighter charging in, the rogue trying to flank, the Ur-Priest trying to heal/boost them. The Dragon used his breath weapon to take down the fodder then using claw and bite to quickly deal with the rogue (who has trouble grasping the idea of a Con penalty). Then he turned his attention to the fighter, (who, unfortunately, missed most of his attacks AND failed to do a lot of damage because he spent his feats boosting the Willing Deformity (Hands) he got at first level), which quickly dealt with the fighter. The Dread Necromancer refused to retreat (thinking that he could take the dragon for some reason) and this resulted in his death. Then, the Ur-Wizard (my nickname for him now) decided it was high time to haul ass out of that cave.

The cave itself was actually a multi-chambered temple to a good deity, to which the dragon had donated most of his gold (the cave IS the hoard, it's practically coated with gold pieces in reverence to his deity). They were ordered by a demon to not only kill the dragon but desecrate the temple, then allow demons to enter and take command.
By desecrate you mean rip all the gold off the walls with a crowbar, right? Cause I haven't been in a good party that wouldn't tear down those walls. It sounds like your group isn't exactly optimized, though, but the heck did they expect when assaulting a dragon horde/temple to a God?

This sounds like a damned fun setup, by the way.

[atemu1234]

By desecrate you mean rip all the gold off the walls with a crowbar, right? Cause I haven't been in a good party that wouldn't tear down those walls. It sounds like your group isn't exactly optimized, though, but the heck did they expect when assaulting a dragon horde/temple to a God?

This sounds like a damned fun setup, by the way.

Gold defended by a dragon. Also, the good deity probably would've loaned them some money. Because it's kind of nice that way. But when they pinged on a detect evil spell, the gloves came off.

And by gloves I mean fire. And by came off I mean was everywhere.

[Thurbane]

It entirely depends on the op-level of the party.

Beatstick Fighter/healbot Cleric/blaster Wizard type parties probably have little chance against an even semi-optimized dragon.

Super-charger Fighter type/Codzilla/Batman Wizard parties would be a whole different story, and the dragon would struggle to inflict much serious damage on them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So they knew what they were going to face, didn't prepare and refused to retreat (except the Ur-Wizard).

I still feel that, with sufficient preparation, the party could have won that fight. The only thing you did wrong is apparently overestimating your players intelligence (and/or will to live).
Really, a simple Mass Resist Energy:Fire would have offered okay protection for the whole party and a bunch of the DNs undead to boot. That alone could have turned the battle already.
For the rogue and fighter, some damage reduction could have worked wonders. They could also have gotten out of full-attack range of a huge monster with 6 natural attacks and full bab, at the latest when it became clear their defenses where insufficient.
They apparently didn't use BFC. They didn't try to debuff an obviously superior, single big enemy. They didn't dispel.
The only good tactical decision was apparently the MTs teleport.

Retconning the consequences of their actions will just encourage further idiocy in the future, so i'd definitely avoid that. Let it stand as a lesson that they can die, should use info they get to prepare accordingly and actually use their heads. Even low-op parties can use tactics.
If the Ur-Wizard feels like resurrecting them that's nice (not that he has any reason IC since, you know, evil). If not they'll have to reroll and hopefully learn something from their defeat (and the Ur-Wizards survival).

[Spore]

If the Ur-Wizard feels like resurrecting them that's nice (not that he has any reason IC since, you know, evil). If not they'll have to reroll and hopefully learn something from their defeat (and the Ur-Wizards survival).

Not trying to stir up an alignment debate but evil isn't stupid evil. As I recall forcing someone into his service via ressurrection (more undeadish tho) is a trope. If they refuse he still might use divination to look for their souls, call a bunch of demons, go there and force them to help him. It's not like demons are forgiving employers.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Not trying to stir up an alignment debate but evil isn't stupid evil. As I recall forcing someone into his service via ressurrection (more undeadish tho) is a trope. If they refuse he still might use divination to look for their souls, call a bunch of demons, go there and force them to help him. It's not like demons are forgiving employers.

They were obviously incompetent, so there's no gain in resurrecting them. And evil is pretty much all about the personal gain. A good cleric might resurrect them out of friendship or pity. An evil one would only do so if he benefits somehow, and i can't really see that in-character.

And frankly the rogue and fighter player may actually benefit from building new characters since it sounds like they weren't really able to contribute. I'd definitely suggest it and let the party talk it over OOC.

[Gemini476]

-A Wizard/Ur-Priest (MT build) (this is the one smart enough to have teleport prepared).

Couldn't the Ur-Theurge just resurrect the other players through whatever means?

Or, given the Vile feats, they could just be raised from the abyss/hells/gehenna/wherever they went by their [Evil] patrons to further the spread of Evil upon the lands.

No need for retconning it, really. Just start next session with them having been brought back to life, and have it resume from there. Maybe suggest to them that they go steal their gear back from wherever the dragon donated it. Or give them an easy target for a lot of money - another (weaker) dragon with an exceptionally large hoard, for instance - and have them get back their WBL through that method. Let them Magic Mart it up in skeevy cornershops and little souviner shops that certainly weren't there yesterday (and won't be there tomorrow) and wandering Mercane interplanar salespersons and whatever.

Because really, the worst losses from this are their dignity and their magical gear. Give them back some of the latter and the former will send them like a missile for revenge against the VoP dragon you made.

[Greenish]

They were obviously incompetent, so there's no gain in resurrecting them. And evil is pretty much all about the personal gain. A good cleric might resurrect them out of friendship or pity. An evil one would only do so if he benefits somehow, and i can't really see that in-character.Evil people can't have friends?

[atemu1234]

Evil people can't have friends?

Yes, they can have friends. I think. It depends, really. The Ur-Wizard doesn't show much interest in rezzing his allies and instead wants to get BETTER allies. He's aligned to an archdemon so it hopefully won't be hard. (I'm going to start another thread on this topic now).

[Greenish]

The Ur-Wizard doesn't show much interest in rezzing his allies and instead wants to get BETTER alliesI can't say I'm surprised. After Glassjaw, Edward Scissorhands, and Leeroy Jenkins, the bar is set pretty low.