Warlock Spellcasting and Balance?

[Grey Watcher]

OK, so I get the raw mechanics of Warlocks. You get a number of spells per day, and you always cast them at a given spell level (1st when you start out, up to 5th by the time your level 20), plus a number of class abilities that you either get at-will, 1/day, or 1/day-and-consumes-a-spell-slot.

But, at a casual glance (I haven't had a chance to see a 5e Warlock in play yet), it seems that they kind of get the short end of the stick. They get so few spells per day as part of their basic spellcasting, and then the class features are so limited, I'm having trouble seeing why you wouldn't want to use a Sorcerer or a Wizard instead (and get the whole "beholden to a pact" thing as a background, bond, and/or RP).

Am I not seeing something? Is getting all your spells at 5th level really worth getting so few spells per day? Are the class features better than I'm thinking they are? Or is this class really just "Eldrtich Blast all day and you can occasionally cast a spell"?

[Fwiffo86]

OK, so I get the raw mechanics of Warlocks. You get a number of spells per day, and you always cast them at a given spell level (1st when you start out, up to 5th by the time your level 20), plus a number of class abilities that you either get at-will, 1/day, or 1/day-and-consumes-a-spell-slot.

But, at a casual glance (I haven't had a chance to see a 5e Warlock in play yet), it seems that they kind of get the short end of the stick. They get so few spells per day as part of their basic spellcasting, and then the class features are so limited, I'm having trouble seeing why you wouldn't want to use a Sorcerer or a Wizard instead (and get the whole "beholden to a pact" thing as a background, bond, and/or RP).

Am I not seeing something? Is getting all your spells at 5th level really worth getting so few spells per day? Are the class features better than I'm thinking they are? Or is this class really just "Eldrtich Blast all day and you can occasionally cast a spell"?

Part of it is, the Warlock migrating spell slots are recovered after a short rest, not a long one. Which if you let your players abuse resting, (and they will more times than not) becomes REALLY powerful. Combined with their at will effects. Not to mention if they go Pact of the Tome (my fav) they get extra cantrips, and with the Invo for Tome, they get access to all ritual spells they can find and transcribe.

They actually have a lot of versatility. After all, how many different ways do you need to cause damage? Lets not forget that warlocks can specialize in Psychic damage... which is difficult to resist at the moment with standard defenses.

[Yorrin]

Well, invocations give a lot of utility that in some cases can't be duplicated by other classes. And the pact features can also do some interesting stuff, such as Infernal making you much tank-y-er, or Fey Pact greatly enhancing your magical charms. Combine with some of the uniqueness of your pact boons and there are certainly some unique niches that only Warlocks can easily fill.

[squashmaster]

It's all about the pact and the invocations.

Plus, sure, we may only get 5 slots max, but those reset on short rests. Assuming you take at least a short rest a day, you got 10 slot uses a day of up to 5th level. Better than most. You only get 4 daily slots of 6-9th level, but Wizards and Sorcs don't have much more than that.

[Z3ro]

Don't forget that at higher levels, they also get a single sixth, seventh, eighth, and nineth level spell they can cast. That brings daily spells up to 8.

[Grey Watcher]

Ah, I must've glossed over the short rest part when I read the class. That does make a pretty substantial difference, since it means the Warlock doesn't have to ration his powers quite as carefully as his peers from other casting classes. OK, that makes sense, so the invocations are really meant to be support powers, which makes sense given what they are.

[ImperiousLeader]

I imagine Warlocks are going to be more affected by how a table plays. If you have the "15-minute" adventuring days, I think their lack of flexibility with 6-9th level spells and lack of extra spell slots are going to make the Warlock pale in comparison to the Sorcerer and Wizard. Also, a long adventuring day without short rests will favour the extra spells the Sorcerer and Wizard get. But it only takes a short rest or two for the Warlock to feel pretty potent.

[BW022]

There are several key differences between the warlock and wizards or sorcerers.

* d8 for hit points, light armour, and simple weapons. This puts them at least on par with a bard, monk, or rogue in terms of survivability, and only slightly behind them in terms of offensive power (excluding special abilities). In other words, they can be played as a skirmisher, ranged attacker, backup blocker, etc. rather than a primary caster.

* The eldritch blast cantrip is a d10 damage, good range, and multiple attacks at higher levels. Combined with agonizing blast... it is better than any ranged attack and better than most melee attacks. i.e. a warlock could simply use these for most of the combat and be as good as most martial types in simply attack damage. Other spell casters don't really have an equivalent "at will" damaging cantrip which is better than most weapons.

* Pack of the blade with thirsting blade puts the warlock on par with most martial types in melee in terms of numbers of attacks, weapons, and damage output. They are proficient in any pact weapon they form, so pikes, gaives, two-handed swords, etc. are all possible.

* The warlock gets his spell slots back after every short rest. Even if the group isn't specifically resting, during most wilderness, travel, or city adventures... they will typically have full spells after breakfast, lunch, or dinner. This means their two biggest spells during most encounters. If the group is forced into multiple combats... the warlock would have to rely on non-spell caster which they are reasonable with, or else stop exploring and find a place to rest. They are also less hurt by having long rests interrupted -- such as night time ambushes.

I tend to look at the warlock as a skirmish-type class, some special magical abilities, and two big spells in reserve. Use one if you need to... and then switch back to weapons or eldritch blast during most of the fights. If pressed, cast the second one. Much of the time, you'll get them back again before the next fight.

[Rfkannen]

Yeah short rest and light armor is a lot of the reason.

However I do not see the point of makeing a melee one useing pact of the blade. Isnt melee atacking just flat out worse than casting a blast?

[Rummy]

One level dip in Fighter or two level dip in Paladin lets a warlock be a great Melee fighter. Make your two spells Armor of Agathys and Hex and you are golden. Throw in human variant with Heavy Armor Mastery and you are awesome. Mix in Polearm Master and you are made of win.

[CyberThread]

Yeah short rest and light armor is a lot of the reason.

However I do not see the point of makeing a melee one useing pact of the blade. Isnt melee atacking just flat out worse than casting a blast?

Depends if you want to hit something with a reaction or if the enemy sees an armored paladin or an unarmed leather wearer. Who do you think looks like a better target to mug?

[Ferrin33]

Yeah short rest and light armor is a lot of the reason.

However I do not see the point of makeing a melee one useing pact of the blade. Isnt melee atacking just flat out worse than casting a blast?

4d6+20(greatsword if you go strength)/2d8+20(If you find a magic Longbow) at level 12 vs 3d10+15 at the same level, at level 17 eldritch blast is plain better without magic items. With magic items(Let's assume a max of +3 as the Magic weapon spell) you have a +3 chance to hit and +3 damage per hit in addition to the above, so it's doable. It does cost you two invocations rather than one + a cantrip, and it prevents you from taking the book with more direct benefits. It really depends on the magic weapons available, and Pact of the Blade does protect them once you do finally get them.

[Gnomes2169]

One level dip in Fighter or two level dip in Paladin lets a warlock be a great Melee fighter. Make your two spells Armor of Agathys and Hex and you are golden. Throw in human variant with Heavy Armor Mastery and you are awesome. Mix in Polearm Master and you are made of win.

Alternately, just be a pure paladin and be made of win anyway. :P

Actually, thinking about it, a 2 level dip in Warlock can actually give the paladin amazing ranged damage potential... Can you smite on an eldrich blast, or is that weapon damage only? I'll look that up quick...

[Ferrin33]

Alternately, just be a pure paladin and be made of win anyway. :P

Actually, thinking about it, a 2 level dip in Warlock can actually give the paladin amazing ranged damage potential... Can you smite on an eldrich blast, or is that weapon damage only? I'll look that up quick...

Melee weapon only, so not even a ranged weapon(which makes me sad).

[Gnomes2169]

Melee weapon only, so not even a ranged weapon(which makes me sad).

What? But... But smiting from afar... D:

[Chaosvii7]

Yeah short rest and light armor is a lot of the reason.

However I do not see the point of makeing a melee one useing pact of the blade. Isnt melee atacking just flat out worse than casting a blast?

Bladelocks can use any weapon, meaning that if you decide to take a high-damage weapon and take Lifedrinker, you can rack up the damage pretty quick.

If you're really serious about being a hardcore melee 'lock you can take a 1-level dip of Cleric and take War domain for extra attacks per day as well as heavy armor and martial weapons. You'd probably dump DEX but that'd still give you a lot of versatility with 3 attacks, hex, and lifedrinker.

Besides, there's a thematic niche for hexblades. They're a mainstay after carving a 10-year niche in the game.

[DrLemniscate]

What? But... But smiting from afar... D:

I forget the exact text for Pact of the Blade (can they summon it back?), but an Eldritch Knight can throw a Javelin, summon it back as a bonus action, then throw it again.

[Ferrin33]

I forget the exact text for Pact of the Blade (can they summon it back?), but an Eldritch Knight can throw a Javelin, summon it back as a bonus action, then throw it again.

It requires an action to create or dismiss it, creating another one makes the old one dissappear.

Edit: Also; if you bind a magic weapon you can have a ranged weapon bound to you as only creating a new one explicitly mentions a melee weapon.

[Sartharina]

Part of it is, the Warlock migrating spell slots are recovered after a short rest, not a long one. Which if you let your players abuse resting, (and they will more times than not) becomes REALLY powerful. Combined with their at will effects. Not to mention if they go Pact of the Tome (my fav) they get extra cantrips, and with the Invo for Tome, they get access to all ritual spells they can find and transcribe.

They actually have a lot of versatility. After all, how many different ways do you need to cause damage? Lets not forget that warlocks can specialize in Psychic damage... which is difficult to resist at the moment with standard defenses.
Taking a short rest after every encounter is Rules as Intended, not "Abusing Resting"

[Fwiffo86]

Taking a short rest after every encounter is Rules as Intended, not "Abusing Resting"

Tomato, Tomato

[Ferrin33]

Tomato, Tomato

Barbarian: "Come on, we have more monsters to slay!"
Monk: "Let me rest up for a moment, I need some time after that last fight. Really took my breath away."
Barbarian: "Nonsense, let us face these dangerous abominations head-on!"
Monk: "No, really, I can barely move fast enough to strike them, my energy is all gone."
Barbarian: "Bah, coward!"

Short rests are used by smart people when they have the time to do so. Time limits and dangerous territories prevent short rests from being optimal. Any sane character would take as many short rests as possible if he's not in a rush. How useful or strong short rests are depends on the situation.

[koscum]

How useful or strong short rests are depends on the situation.
Very much this. My group had a slight lapse in judgement and we decided to grab a short rest in the middle of a dungeon crawl in what seemed to be a safe room, thinking we wouldn't interrupted. We weren't interrupted, but were ambushed when we tried to unbar the door and proceed pwnin'.
Short rests benefit Warlocks immensely, but they are not something they should rely upon. Eldritch Blast is still their bread-and-butter spell, while others are utilities or trump cards for more difficult encounters. Also, if party is somehow prevented from having long rests, which is something that is fairly likely to happen at some point, Warlocks get a huge advantage over other casters.
Also, short rests are a good way to heal up without popping spells or potions and fire up some utility/scouting rituals if time is not a critical resource.

[Person_Man]

Make your two spells Armor of Agathys and Hex and you are golden.

Yeah, both of these Warlock spells are awesome. And the Warlock always cast them out of their maximum spell slot up to 5th level, and can restore those slots as a Short Rest. Combined with his flexible Cantrips, Pacts, and Invocations, the Warlock is extremely flexible and useful between ECL 1-10ish.

At ECL 11ish-20 any other full caster is arguably stronger then the Warlock, especially the Bard (who can cherry pick spells from any list), because by that point they have plenty of spell slots to draw upon, more flexible high level spells known, and one more 6th/7th level spell slots per day. But the Warlock is probably still better off then a high level Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian, and is probably on par with a high level Monk or Paladin.

[Rummy]

Yeah, both of these Warlock spells are awesome. And the Warlock always cast them out of their maximum spell slot up to 5th level, and can restore those slots as a Short Rest. Combined with his flexible Cantrips, Pacts, and Invocations, the Warlock is extremely flexible and useful between ECL 1-10ish.

At ECL 11ish-20 any other full caster is arguably stronger then the Warlock, especially the Bard (who can cherry pick spells from any list), because by that point they have plenty of spell slots to draw upon, more flexible high level spells known, and one more 6th/7th level spell slots per day. But the Warlock is probably still better off then a high level Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian, and is probably on par with a high level Monk or Paladin.

You are prolly right. I would add that levels 1-10 are the more important levels for the vast majority of DnD experiences. Also, I'm not that interested in casting spells, but I like using magical effects or at-will spells. The warlock fills that niche perfectly.

[Aramis Rhett]

Or go heavy into dex, grab two scimitars/shortswords (for finesse), go unarmored and roll with Armor of Shadows invocation. Gives more AC than any light armor anyway.