chameleons and 9th level spells

[.Zero]

Can someone explain me the Extra Slot trick to get 9th level spell on a Chameleon? I made some google-fu and even if i found it described in the chameleon handbook in minmax, i still can't understand it.

The trick usually involves taking Extra Slot three times, but only after you reached chameleon 10, because at that level you get 6th level spells (it can be done even at chameleon 9 if you manage to have int 30+). You then add two of the feat Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, because with them you can bump your spell level by two. Then you apply Extra Slot and get a 7th level spell.

But now here come problems. The biggest one is that Extra Spell says

"Benefit
You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. For example, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains either an extra 0-level or 1stlevel slot, and is able to cast any spell he knows of the chosen level one more time each day. Likewise, a 4th-level wizard can prepare any extra 0-level or 1st-level spell he knows. Once selected, the extra spell slot never changes level."

Emphasis mine. So how can Extra Slot give me a 7th level spell slot if i can't cast 8th level spells? Is there something I'm missing?

Also, as a side question, a chameleon prepares and casts divine spells as a cleric, so is he restricted by his alignment just like a cleric?

Thanks.

[Rebel7284]

Look at Heighten Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/heighten-spell--1371/)



Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.


So applying Heighten Spell for free/cheaper allows you to in all ways to be treated as casting a higher level spell.

[.Zero]

Mmh, but if i take DMM: Highen and cast a 6th level spell as a 7th level spell from a 6th level spell slot, this doesn't change anything, because i must include Versatile Spellcaster/Sanctum Spell in account.

Can you please elaborate that?

[Rebel7284]

Mmh, but if i take DMM: Highen and cast a 6th level spell as a 7th level spell from a 6th level spell slot, this doesn't change anything, because i must include Versatile Spellcaster/Sanctum Spell in account.

Can you please elaborate that?

What do you mean?

If you use DMM Heighten, you no longer need Versatile Spellcaster. Earth Spell is still useful as without it Heighten can't being a spell to higher than 9th level.

In general, this is all questionable material in my opinion. Just because you can cast a spell that counts as a 9th level spell with a combination of feats and class abilities doesn't mean you have the inherent ability to cast 9th level spells... More importantly, it causes silly things like a plain cleric 6 suddenly having 8th level spells with Extra Slot.

[.Zero]

I don't think that things like DMM: Heighen will trigger Earth Spell, because Earth Spell applies only when you cast spells prepared in a higher spell slot with Heighen Spell. So with metamagic reducer you no longer prepare a Heighen Spell in a higher spell slot, hence Earth Spell cannot trigger.

However, while reading your posts here and thinking about this matter, i think i get the trick.

I have access to 6th level. I prepare a Heighen Sanctum Summon Monster V in a 6th level spell slot. When i cast it, and only when i cast it, Sanctum Spell and Earth spell trigger, and the spell level is increased by two. Now the spell is effectively treated as an 8th level spell, but is still cast from a 6th level spell slot, since both Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell effects trigger in the moment you cast the spell. So now i apply the benefit of Extra Slot and get a 7th level spell slot. The next time i get a feat i repeat this process once more and get an 8th level spell slot and so on.

Is this procedure right? Is there a method that requires less than five (5!!!) feats?

[Darrin]

Can someone explain me the Extra Slot trick to get 9th level spell on a Chameleon? I made some google-fu and even if i found it described in the chameleon handbook in minmax, i still can't understand it.


My Onnedad Kairdwen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753375&postcount=323) build (from Iron Chef LVIII (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357412)) was able to get one 9th level slot using Dragon Disciple's bonus spells (which aren't called slots, but should be). She uses Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell + Improved Sigil: Krau to heighten a 5th level spell up to 9th. Since 9th level spells are the highest she can cast, Dragon Disciple gives her a bonus spell up to the highest level she can cast. (I could have gotten more spell slots via Dragon Disciple or Wonderworker, but the contest was about optimizing Spellsword.) However, not everyone agrees that this is legal.

The Extra Slot trick only works if you can get your spells up to 10th level. But this is difficult to do, if you interpret Heighten Spell as having a hard limit of 9th level. Talfirian Song (Races of Faerun) might be better than Earth Spell for this, but it too can't go above 9th level. If you Earth/Talfirian/Heighten up to 9th, and then Sanctum or Improved Sigil: Krau can take you above that, then can use Extra Slot to get a 9th level slot.

Again, there's no agreement that this works by RAW. The Chameleon handbook I looked at just assumed that this was possible, and didn't worry much about the details. It's also not clear how Chameleons learn new spells, or if you learn any new spells just by getting a new higher-level spell slot. So you may need to throw Arcane Disciple or one of the Bloodline feats (Dragon Compendium) in there to "know" a 9th level spell. And yes, it's very, very feat-intensive.



Also, as a side question, a chameleon prepares and casts divine spells as a cleric, so is he restricted by his alignment just like a cleric?


The Chameleon rules state: "You prepare and cast these spells just as a cleric does", and the Cleric spellcasting rules state: "A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity's (if he has one)." So in general, I'd say yes, but you may have some wiggle room if your Chameleon is an undeclared/agnostic/atheist, or if you're doing something oddball like worshiping a pantheon.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You forgot about this
You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus,
ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a
feat, prestige class, or other option.

So if you want to get 9th level spells as a Chameleon you need spells from another source that you heighten to 10th level, use those to take Extra Slot and have the feat apply to the Chameleons casting. Twice, once for arcane and once for divine focus.

[Inevitability]

Or, you could just make a fiendish pact and gain a free NI-level spellslot. Sure, it involves committing a grievous act that will probably change your post-mortem destination to Hell, but hey, you got what you wanted!

[Darrin]

So if you want to get 9th level spells as a Chameleon you need spells from another source that you heighten to 10th level, use those to take Extra Slot and have the feat apply to the Chameleons casting. Twice, once for arcane and once for divine focus.

Good point, but I think Dragon Disciple's bonus spell might still have some wiggle room, as class abilities are not explicitly specified under "other option". If you can get a 9th level slot via Dragon Disciple, you could backfill an 8th level slot with Extra Slot.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Good point, but I think Dragon Disciple's bonus spell might still have some wiggle room, as class abilities are not explicitly specified under "other option". If you can get a 9th level slot via Dragon Disciple, you could backfill an 8th level slot with Extra Slot.

You still need to heighten some non-chameleon spell to 9th in order to get a 9th level bonus slot. Heightening a Chameleon spell doesn't count.
Easiest way is probably a level of bard, Heighten Spell, Talfirian Song and Extra Music x2. Then take a level of Dragon Disciple to get your 9th level slot and Extra Slot x2 for an 8th and 7th level slot.

[.Zero]

The Extra Slot trick only works if you can get your spells up to 10th level. But this is difficult to do, if you interpret Heighten Spell as having a hard limit of 9th level. Talfirian Song (Races of Faerun) might be better than Earth Spell for this, but it too can't go above 9th level. If you Earth/Talfirian/Heighten up to 9th, and then Sanctum or Improved Sigil: Krau can take you above that, then can use Extra Slot to get a 9th level slot.

Well, i get 8th level spell slot, so i prepare a Sanctum Heighen Summon momster VII in an 8th level spell slot. Upon casting, Summon Monster VII becomes a 10th level spell, so Extra Slot, bam, a 9th level spell slot. It's quite simple, isn't it? It's the same thing i wrote in my last post. I got 8th and 7th level spell slot in the same way with Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell.


Again, there's no agreement that this works by RAW. The Chameleon handbook I looked at just assumed that this was possible, and didn't worry much about the details. It's also not clear how Chameleons learn new spells, or if you learn any new spells just by getting a new higher-level spell slot.

But why it's not RAW legal at all? I can't see anything preventing this, and it also

With Arcane Focus they get a spellbook, so they know spells as wizards do, except that they don't gain two free spells per level. This means that they need to copy every single spell they want to cast as an arcane spell.

Divine Focus instead lets you cast and prepare divine spells as a cleric, so you automatically know every divine spell from every *class* list, their only limit is that they must prepare spells at sunrise. The divine side is not a problem, and you can copy on your arcane spellbook every divine spell that is also arcane. Maybe feats like Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell may add more silliness to a Chameleon casting, allowing them to fill that spellbook with every single spell in the game. Not sure about this, my researches are not done yet.


You forgot about this

So if you want to get 9th level spells as a Chameleon you need spells from another source that you heighten to 10th level, use those to take Extra Slot and have the feat apply to the Chameleons casting. Twice, once for arcane and once for divine focus.

I know of that limit, but that applies only to requirements, it definitely does not prevent you to apply your feats to a chameleon's casting. So if you meet the caster level 4th requirement of Extra Slot with another casting class, you can freely apply it to Chameleon's casting.
Not sure if you must take it twice, but i tend to hold the line that once is enough. The feat text is clear, and doesn't take account of multiple "casting pools" and it seems pretty legit to me that a single Extra Slot feat grants you a new arcane spell slot and simultaneously a new divine spell slot, and if you manage to cast the same level of spells on both sides, it gives you the same new spell slot for both sides.

I mean, it's the same for a Theurge class. Would you really prevent a Theurge to apply Extra Slot to both sides? I won't, and this seems pretty legal to me at least.

I think i got what you meant while i was writing, however. It seems that you argue that you cannot use Extra Slot to improve a chameleon's casting because of his restrictions. Well, my position is the same as a few lines above, meaning that you only need to satisfy the requirement of caster level with another casting class. The chameleon's restriction apply specifically to requirements of feats, PrC and the like, they don't refer to effects and since Extra Slot requirement "caster level 4th" is satisfied by another casting class, and since the feat is no way bound to the casting class you used to meet the requirements i see no problem in heighening chameleon's spells and getting new spell slots.

"You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."

This is clear. You can't use anything except your floating feats for *qualify*. But if you satisfy requirements in different ways, there's really no room for arguing such a thing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

"Capable of casting a 10th level spell" is also a requirement for taking Extra Slot to get a 9th level slot, so you need 10th level spells that aren't from you chameleon spellcasting.
Also, Extra Slot is pretty clear that it grants one spell slot. Not two. Not one for every type of spellcasting you have. No matter your class.

I'm not arguing that you can't improve Chameleon casting with feats. Just that you need to meet any requirements with non-chameleon spellcasting to qualify.
Want a 9th level Extra Slot? You need 10th level spells that aren't from your Ability Focus.
Want to take Dragon Disciple for a 9th level slot? You need to be able to cast a non-chameleon 9th level spell.

Really, getting 9th level arcane & divine casting from ANY list is already enough if you go by literal RAW. There's no need to go for a generous interpretation on top of that.

[.Zero]

"Capable of casting a 10th level spell" is also a requirement for taking Extra Slot to get a 9th level slot, so you need 10th level spells that aren't from you chameleon spellcasting.

But i don't really get why you say that Extra Slot doesn't work with a Chameleon's casting.

The feat text says



Originally posted by D&Dtools

Prerequisite
Caster level 4th

Benefit
You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. For example, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains either an extra 0-level or 1stlevel slot, and is able to cast any spell he knows of the chosen level one more time each day. Likewise, a 4th-level wizard can prepare any extra 0-level or 1st-level spell he knows. Once selected, the extra spell slot never changes level.

Emphasis mine, more on this later.

First off, the only prerequisite is that you must have a caster level 4th. So if you fulfill this requirment with another class' caster level, you can take the feat. Chameleon's limitation prevents you from qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and other similar things, it does absolutely not prevent you from applying feats' benefits or prestige classes' class features to a Chameleon's casting. So how can you say that Extra Slot can't be applied to a chameleon's casting? Again, the only requirement of the feat is "caster level 4th". "Capable of casting an Xth level spell" is in no way a requirement of the feat, so Extra Slot applies to a chameleon's casting and there's nothing that prevents you to use it as a base for the feat, *if* a base is required. And i'll explain you what i mean with this.


Also, Extra Slot is pretty clear that it grants one spell slot. Not two. Not one for every type of spellcasting you have. No matter your class.

Now, remember my emphasis and that silly "base" concept?

Well, the feat grants you one extra spell slot in your "daily allotment". As a chameleon, my daily allotment is formed by arcane spells when i'm in Arcane Focus *and* by divine spells when i'm in Divine Focus. So, what really matters is whether or not i apply Extra Slot before or after Chameleon 7, which is the level that gives you Double Aptitude. If i apply it before that level, i'm ok with you, it only gives me an extra spell slot based on which focus i have when i apply the feat. But if i apply it while in Double Aptitude: Arcane Focus, Divine Focus, things change a lot.

As i wrote before, my "daily allotment" is formed by two "casting pools", so is legit to say that the feat applies to both sides.
But this is just the top of the iceberg.

This poorly worded feat was never meant to be applied to theurge-ish classes, and it was apparently invented to help Sorcerer-like casting, but you know, a dnd community exist as exist optimization, minmaxing, and interpretation-of-poorly-written-things.
Extra Slot is different from feats like Practiced Spellcaster, that requires to be applied to a given spellcasting class. It is in no way bound to a single class, all it checks is your "daily allotment" of spells. So where could this lead to? What happens if your build has more and more spellcasting classes before and after 10 levels of chameleon? Does Extra Slot grant a spell slot to each spellcasting class you have each time you select the feat? This could be silly, because you'll have tons of low level spell slots to burn for other useful things (Versatile Spellcaster, Uncanny Forethought, Circle Magic, stupid social and situational utility spells etc.), but I'm inclined to say yes, entirely based upon a weak feat wording.

I also checked the game's glossary and there's no mention of a "daily allotment", so what "daily allotment" means is entirely up to your interpretation. As i see it, Bard1/Wizard4/Chameleon10 has multiple "daily allotments" of spells, one is Bard's, one is Wizard's and two are Chameleon's. I'm inclined to say so because of the game's spellcasting recharge mechanic, which happens *each day*, thus leading to the fact that this character has a Bard "daily allotment", a Wizard "daily allotment" and a Chameleon "daily allotment", which is made of the Arcane Focus "daily allotment" and the Divine Focus "daily allotment".
Is this an extrapolation of mine going beyond the rules? If someone has quotes for that please post 'em, even if they will contradict me.


I'm not arguing that you can't improve Chameleon casting with feats. Just that you need to meet any requirements with non-chameleon spellcasting to qualify.
Want a 9th level Extra Slot? You need 10th level spells that aren't from your Ability Focus.
Want to take Dragon Disciple for a 9th level slot? You need to be able to cast a non-chameleon 9th level spell.

That's true, but Extra Slot only requirement is caster level 4th, which is met by, say wiz3 + orange ioun stone.
A chameleon build, for example, can never take levels in DMG Hierophant PrC, because it requires 7th level divine spells.

But... are you still on your position? Ok, i have another method that lets you cast 9th level chameleon spells, maybe.

1) Be an illumian with improved sigil, krau.
2) Take Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (any domain) and get the Higher Order ability asap.
"Once per day [for three times, note], you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell's level."
See it? Yes, another s.hit wording. What does "normally prepared" ever mean in this context? Should we declare this feat's wording inconsistent and let it be only a waste of space in a splatbook, or should we go as RAW as possible and let it do something? I'm with the second one.

It seems that the most commonly accepted reading of that ability is to treat your "cleric" level equal to your character level. So if you are at character level 15, you can cast an 8th level spell from your chosen domain, take Extra Slot and you have a 7th level chameleon slot.
3) Apply the effect of the improved Krau sigil and the 8th level "domain" spell becomes 9th level.
4) Use your floating feat to get Extra Slot and you'll have an 8th level chameleon spell slot.
5) Wait 18th level.
6) Use again your improved sigil and the 9th level spell slot becomes a 10th level spell slot. Apply extra slot and you have a 9th level chamelepn spell slot.
But will you imply that Krau is exactly the same than Heighen Spell (thus preventing you to increase the spell slot above 9th level)? I'm on a different position, because the wording is a bit different (it says "as if it [the spell] was altered by Heighen Spell", that is straight different from directly apply Heighen Spell) and the sigil doesn't effectively increase the affected spell's slot, but, ok, let's try this.

Catalogues of enlightenment states that you can cast any spell of the chosen domain as if you had normally prepared it. So, does it allow you to treat those spells as if they were "normally prepared" with metamagic feats you know applied to 'em? If this is true, then you only need to have Sanctum Spell and treat that 9th level domain spell as if it was normally prepared with Sanctum Spell applied to it, then take Extra Slot again ECL 18 and you get that 9th level chameleon spell slot.

If this is not true, then i am not aware of any method to cast 9th level spells without interacting with chameleon's spell slots, which as i wrote, i think is perfectly within the boundaries of that limitation.

Maybe some Alternative Spell Source shenanigans that i don't know of?


Really, getting 9th level arcane & divine casting from ANY list is already enough if you go by literal RAW. There's no need to go for a generous interpretation on top of that.

But there's no generous interpretation. Also, improving chameleon's casting requires *a lot* of resources and i find it quite balancing that all your efforts will be rewarded one day. Don't forget that T1 and T2 casters can crush the world without dirty tricks just by themselves. The fact that they can access to more and more dirty tricks is just gravy.

[.Zero]

So no one else has something to say?

[Tvtyrant]

I have never bought into the Chameleon giving itself 9ths. I have almost always used it with Wizards who have Sanctum Spell as a capstone, because then my Wizard can gain access to every Arcane spell ever.

[Vogonjeltz]

Can someone explain me the Extra Slot trick to get 9th level spell on a Chameleon? I made some google-fu and even if i found it described in the chameleon handbook in minmax, i still can't understand it.

The trick usually involves taking Extra Slot three times, but only after you reached chameleon 10, because at that level you get 6th level spells (it can be done even at chameleon 9 if you manage to have int 30+). You then add two of the feat Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, because with them you can bump your spell level by two. Then you apply Extra Slot and get a 7th level spell.

But now here come problems. The biggest one is that Extra Spell says

"Benefit
You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. For example, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains either an extra 0-level or 1stlevel slot, and is able to cast any spell he knows of the chosen level one more time each day. Likewise, a 4th-level wizard can prepare any extra 0-level or 1st-level spell he knows. Once selected, the extra spell slot never changes level."

Emphasis mine. So how can Extra Slot give me a 7th level spell slot if i can't cast 8th level spells? Is there something I'm missing?

Also, as a side question, a chameleon prepares and casts divine spells as a cleric, so is he restricted by his alignment just like a cleric?

Thanks.

Spell slots are the only thing that determines what the highest level spell you can cast is. That's why the "one weird trick" doesn't work.

[.Zero]

I have never bought into the Chameleon giving itself 9ths. I have almost always used it with Wizards who have Sanctum Spell as a capstone, because then my Wizard can gain access to every Arcane spell ever.

Can you please elaborate on this? Which is the wizard build that uses chameleon to get every arcane spell?


Spell slots are the only thing that determines what the highest level spell you can cast is. That's why the "one weird trick" doesn't work.

Sorry? It's strange, because you just quoted the part of my post that seems to contradict you, if i got what you're talking about right.

Re-read Extra Slot and tell me which part of the feat's text says that it grants an extra slot based upon your highest level spell slot.
Now, re-read the emphasised part and you'll find that the feat just don't cares about spell slots, it only checks the highest level spell you can cast, regardless of the spell's actual or effective slot.

That's why the "one wierd trick" works.

[Tvtyrant]

Can you please elaborate on this? Which is the wizard build that uses chameleon to get every arcane spell?



I personally like the following one.

Human Wizard 1 5 feats Scribe Scroll (Wizard bonus), Skill Focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration), Spell Focus (conjuration), Inattentive Flaw, Vulnerable Flaw
Wizard 2
Wizard 3 feat Extend Spell
Wizard 4
Wizard 5 Feat Heighten Spell
Wizard 6 feat Practiced Spellcaster
Wizard 7
Wizard 8
Wizard 9 feat Dragon Familiar
Tainted Sorcerer 1
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2 feat Sanctum Spell
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4 feat node Spellcasting
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 6 feat Metanode Spell
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
Chameleon 1 feat Persist Spell
Chameleon 2 feat (floating) (Usually extra spell or an item creation spell)

You can ignore most of it (especially tainted Sorcerer and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.) Basically the Wizard has a sanctum from their sanctum spell feat, and in that sanctum they can cast a 9th level spell as a 10th level spell. They then use the Extra Spell feat each day to memorize a spell they don't know of 0-9, and write it down.

I like to combine it with Metanode Spell, Genesis and Node Genesis to create a 6th level node in a pocket dimension, where the wizard can persist any spell for free and then leave fully armed. Tainted Sorcerer is for nearly infinite, or arbitrarily high, numbers of spells and spell DCs. It takes being undead though, so it is not for everyone.

[Coventry]

Can someone explain me the Extra Slot trick to get 9th level spell on a Chameleon?

Turion explained it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352834-Chameleon-or-mystic-theurge-3-5&p=17549442#post17549442) to me back in May.

[.Zero]

Turion explained it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352834-Chameleon-or-mystic-theurge-3-5&p=17549442#post17549442) to me back in May.

Nope, that's not how versatile spellcaster work. I figured out how this trick works while posting in this thread, and it cannot work with that feat.

Read it.


Benefit
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you kn expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

It specifically requires to sacrifice two *spell slots*, and Sanctum Spell does not affect the spell slot of your Sanctum'd spell. A 6th level Sanctum Spell is treated for all purposes as a 7th level spell, but it is cast from a 6th level spell slot. So if you use Versatile Spellcaster on two Sanctum'd spells, you'll still get a 7th level spell, for the reasons i explained before.

The only method that i know of that gives 9th level spells to chameleons involves seven (7!!!) feats: Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, Heighen Spell, Extra Slot x3.

The Krau sigil method, only arguably nets you 9th level spells, but I'm still on the opinion that it works.



You can ignore most of it (especially tainted Sorcerer and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.) Basically the Wizard has a sanctum from their sanctum spell feat, and in that sanctum they can cast a 9th level spell as a 10th level spell. They then use the Extra Spell feat each day to memorize a spell they don't know of 0-9, and write it down.

I like to combine it with Metanode Spell, Genesis and Node Genesis to create a 6th level node in a pocket dimension, where the wizard can persist any spell for free and then leave fully armed. Tainted Sorcerer is for nearly infinite, or arbitrarily high, numbers of spells and spell DCs. It takes being undead though, so it is not for everyone.

I don't know absolutely anything about nodes, but it's a part of the game that i like to expand someday.

Regarding Extra Spell, i know of that trick, but i always wondered: how much gold does it require? I think you're gonna spend a very large amount of money with that. I guess that even with a blessed book you'll end up reserving a huge amount of your wealth to spells. Is it really worth it?

[Crake]

Why does everyone always forget about snowcasting as an alternative to heighten/earth spell? If you cant find a cold spell of each level, you can just use energy substitution to turn any energy spell into a cold spell, then just add snow and you get +1 effective spell level.

Combine with Sanctum (so just 2 feats, 3 with energy substitution) and you can cast cold spells at +2 effective spell level without all the hassle, more than enough to play around with extra slot shenannigans.

Edit: And hey, once you have 9th level slots, you can dark chaos shuffle snowcasting and energy substitution away into something else (like more spell slots). Be sure to keep sanctum though, to keep on qualifying for 9th level extra slot feat

[sleepyphoenixx]

You also need another metamagic feat to qualify for Sanctum Spell which can make feats tight in some builds. Snowcasting has no such restriction.

[Segev]

Even if you interpret Extra Slot as applying to "any" spellcasting class you have, it still grants only one extra slot. It mentions "your daily allotment." If you argue that your daily allotment is every spell you get from all classes and features, it still adds just one to that, not one to each contributing source. If you argue that your daily allotment is based on a specific class, then this feat would also apply only to that specifically chosen class.

It does, however, seem to work to allow, say, a cleric 10/sorcerer 2 to pick up a 4th level sorcerer slot, unless I'm missing something. Since the highest-level slot you have is cleric 5, but it doesn't say you have to take a cleric spell slot with Extra Slot. Just that the new slot must be no higher than one level lower than your highest slot. (You still would need Extra Spell to be able to cast a 5th level spell. So maybe Sorcerer 10/Cleric 2 is better, as that would give you a 4th level cleric slot which you could fill with any cleric spell you liked. And use Spontaneous Healing or what-have-you out of it, too.)

[sleepyphoenixx]

It does, however, seem to work to allow, say, a cleric 10/sorcerer 2 to pick up a 4th level sorcerer slot, unless I'm missing something. Since the highest-level slot you have is cleric 5, but it doesn't say you have to take a cleric spell slot with Extra Slot. Just that the new slot must be no higher than one level lower than your highest slot. (You still would need Extra Spell to be able to cast a 5th level spell. So maybe Sorcerer 10/Cleric 2 is better, as that would give you a 4th level cleric slot which you could fill with any cleric spell you liked. And use Spontaneous Healing or what-have-you out of it, too.)

You'd also need to raise your CL high enough to reach the minimum for a 4th level spell (7 for clerics), which is something people often seem to forget. Otherwise you can only use the slot for metamagic and lower level spells.

[bekeleven]

You forgot about this

So if you want to get 9th level spells as a Chameleon you need spells from another source that you heighten to 10th level, use those to take Extra Slot and have the feat apply to the Chameleons casting. Twice, once for arcane and once for divine focus.

You're not using it to qualify for a feat, because casting Nth level spells is not a feat prerequisite.

That said, if you need this, just take 1 level of cloistered cleric (when has that hurt a build?), alt. source spell or similar, and versatile spellcaster.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know absolutely anything about nodes, but it's a part of the game that i like to expand someday.

Regarding Extra Spell, i know of that trick, but i always wondered: how much gold does it require? I think you're gonna spend a very large amount of money with that. I guess that even with a blessed book you'll end up reserving a huge amount of your wealth to spells. Is it really worth it?

Eh, it is Wish economy time by this point. Go around making walls of salt/iron or sell permanent Walls of Force covered in dirt to prevent them being dispelled to forts. Sadly True Creation takes XP, and even with a thought bottle the limitations on what you can create at a time are short. 19,000 GP at a time at level 20 when a thought bottle costs 20,000 is a wash.

[.Zero]

Well, i've made some researches, and I'm quite happy i found a pretty little thing, deep in the PHB and SRD. Ok, maybe it's not that deep, but look at this.


Originally posted by SRD, Bard

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard.


Originally posted by SRD, Cleric

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. [b]His[/b base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric.

And all the others spellcasters have the same entry.

First off, i found that "daily allotment of spells" is somehow defined, and is summarized in the "spells per day" entry in each spellcasting class' table.

I'm glad to see that it's just like i supposed it to be: each class has a separate daily allotment of spells that's recharged every day. Nice to see that logic is supported by RAW, for once.

Now, let's look at the Extra Slot text again


Benefit
You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. For example, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains either an extra 0-level or 1stlevel slot, and is able to cast any spell he knows of the chosen level one more time each day. Likewise, a 4th-level wizard can prepare any extra 0-level or 1st-level spell he knows. Once selected, the extra spell slot never changes level.

I said this before, but the feat is in no way bound to a single spellcasting class that you choose, like, for example Practiced Spellcaster, that specifically requires you to choose a spellcasting class to which apply the benefits. It does not say "choose a spellcasting class your character has levels in, and add one spell slot to the daily allotment of spells of that class, up to one level lower than the highest level of spell that class can cast."

Unfortunately (or luckily), the feat text was written by people that weren't able to see farther than their nose, and never took in account the possibility that this feat would be used by multiclass characters. Or even if they thought about it, they made an inconsistent wording for multiclass characters, and the only way to determine its effects is interpreting it.

Ok, back to business now. Extra Slot says "you gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment of spells etc...". What the hell does *you* mean? I think that the most reasonable interpretation of that word here is "your character". It would be silly to read "you" as "one of your classes", becouse the word "you" refers to your whole person, and in this game, level you have in a given class are just a fragment of your PC, but the totality of your class levels determine your character.

You just don't know how much i do hate semantics issues when we're talking about a game. However, hope you got the idea.

Next step now is to figure out that a character's (becouse we're talking about the character in its integrity, per the Extra Slot text, don't forget it) daily allotment of spells is formed by his classes' daily allotment of spells, resulting in some separate spellcasting pools.
Apply Extra Slot.
It's now applied to the character's daily allotment of spells. A character's daily allotment of spells is formed by all his spellcasting classes daily allotments of spell, so by the fact that the feat does not require you to choose a class to which apply its benefits, the feat applies to every single daily allotment at once, granting a single spell slot to each one.

But, are you still on the opinion that what i wrote are just crazy bulls/hit? Sure it may be. Are you still convinced that Extra Slot must be applied to a single class (which clearly isn't)? Well, this doesn't change anything, becouse I've found a way to finally end this forever.

We were all misreading the chameleon. We're not applying Extra Slot to the Arcane Focus or to the Divine Focus. Look at the chameleon's table in Races of Destiny. Ok, now look at the part on the right, under the "spells per day" entry. Ok, see those numbers? Ok, we are applying Extra Slot to those numbers, and nobody cares about Arcane Focus etc.
Are you getting it now? By the table, Chameleons at 10th level, goes Arcane Focus and can cast one 6th level spell slot. Chameleon now goes Double Aptitude, adding Divine Focus. I'm sure now you got it. No? Ok, think at that single 6th level spell slot. It's *not* splitted up among the two Foci, but each Focus gets his own 6th level spell slot, de facto *doubling* a chameleon's spell slots. Now, what will happen if we somehow find a way to add spell slots to a chemeleon's spells per day table? We will have that a chameleon 10 has 1+X 6th level spell slots, and when he goes Double Aptitude, we will have that Arcane Focus has 1+X+Int 6th level spell slots and that Divine Focus has 1+X+Wis 6th level spell slots.

Remember, we are to applying Extra Slot benefits to the Foci, we simply can't, all we can do is applying it to the spells per day table.

And finally that's how Extra Slot works on a chameleon.

[Vogonjeltz]

Can you please elaborate on this? Which is the wizard build that uses chameleon to get every arcane spell?

Sorry? It's strange, because you just quoted the part of my post that seems to contradict you, if i got what you're talking about right.

Re-read Extra Slot and tell me which part of the feat's text says that it grants an extra slot based upon your highest level spell slot.
Now, re-read the emphasised part and you'll find that the feat just don't cares about spell slots, it only checks the highest level spell you can cast, regardless of the spell's actual or effective slot.

That's why the "one wierd trick" works.

It grants you a spell slot one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast.

You can only cast spells if they can fit in your spell slots. If you have a 6th level spell slot than that is ipso facto the highest level spell you can cast.

[Chronos]

Except that there are plenty of ways to cast a 7th or 8th level spell out of a 6th-level slot.

[.Zero]

It grants you a spell slot one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast.

You can only cast spells if they can fit in your spell slots. If you have a 6th level spell slot than that is ipso facto the highest level spell you can cast.

Mmh, i must surely have some serious brain damage, becouse i just can't understand you. What's your point? Read Sancum Spell: it allowes you to cast an Xth level spell from an X-1 spell slot. And this is not something you can argue: it's what is written in the feat's text! So you could houserule that things do other things, but, hey, that's just houserules.

I'll ask you again: which part of Extra Slot says that it's based upon spell slots? You can't tell me, because that part doesn't exist. But this is barely relevant, because feats like, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Improved Sigil (Krau) and off course Snowcasting allows you to cast higher level spells from lower level spell slots.

You are trying to bring in an issue that doesn't exist, so, for the last time, what's your point?

[bekeleven]

Next step now is to figure out that a character's (becouse we're talking about the character in its integrity, per the Extra Slot text, don't forget it) daily allotment of spells is formed by his classes' daily allotment of spells, resulting in some separate spellcasting pools.
Apply Extra Slot.
It's now applied to the character's daily allotment of spells. A character's daily allotment of spells is formed by all his spellcasting classes daily allotments of spell, so by the fact that the feat does not require you to choose a class to which apply its benefits, the feat applies to every single daily allotment at once, granting a single spell slot to each one.

You were right until around here.

Yes, your daily allotment is formed of the sum of your spells/day for each class. Meaning a Druid 1/Wizard 1 has a daily allotment of 6 / 2 spells (3/1 from each).

How do you go from "there is a single daily allotment" and "You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment" to get that you get two spell slots? That conclusion is not only not backed up by data, but it's the opposite of the supports that you built for it.

If you want a liberal reading by RAW, then try this: You gain one extra spell in your daily allotment, and since it's never tied to the spellcasting of a single class, you can choose each day as you prepare/refresh spells which spellcasting class uses it. In other words, you can choose which portion of the allotment it falls into. If you have more than one spontaneous class, you can choose at will which one spends the slot.

Now that's no "You have a single allotment controlling spells per day, you get a single spell slot in a that allotment, and therefore you have 50 extra spells per day" but it's pretty liberal RAW compared to the assumed RAI.

The question on how this relates to theurge chameleons is a separate one that I did not address.

[Vogonjeltz]

Mmh, i must surely have some serious brain damage, becouse i just can't understand you. What's your point? Read Sancum Spell: it allowes you to cast an Xth level spell from an X-1 spell slot. And this is not something you can argue: it's what is written in the feat's text! So you could houserule that things do other things, but, hey, that's just houserules.

I'll ask you again: which part of Extra Slot says that it's based upon spell slots? You can't tell me, because that part doesn't exist. But this is barely relevant, because feats like, Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, Improved Sigil (Krau) and off course Snowcasting allows you to cast higher level spells from lower level spell slots.

You are trying to bring in an issue that doesn't exist, so, for the last time, what's your point?

Sorry to hear you have damage, that's tragic.

You can only learn spells of the highest slot you have, so it doesn't matter that sanctum spell changes the effective spell level. It doesn't change the spell level.

*the FAQ spells this all out as well, in case you require official text to let it go.

[.Zero]

@Vogonjeltz

FAQ is no official text.

However, I'm ok with you, you can learn spells based on the highest spell slot you have. That's just fine. In fact this doesn't contradict Extra Slot shenanigans.

Obviously a spell is effectively increased in level when you use Sancum Spell or Snowcasting (but, note, not an Earth'd spell), because the affected spell doesn't change slot. But it changes level, thus allowing you to do all sorts of tricks involving spell level, including PrC early entries or qualifying for things.

With an increased-in-level spell you use Extra Slot, and since the feat is not based on spell slots but it's based on spell level, you gain a new slot. I can't see issues with this, because it doesn't matter if the spell is effectively increased in level or it's just of that level, what really matters is that a 6th level Sanctum'd, Earth'd spell is for all purposes trated as an 8th level spell, including DC, interaction with spell turning or reflection and every other single thing you can think of, including, again, feats, PrCs or class features' requirements.

Now that this concept seem clear (i hope so), let's talk about learning spells. Extra Slot has nothing tp do with learning spells, so what's your point? It simply gives you a new spell slot and you'll fill that spell slot with an appropriate spell you know.

Also, we're talking about chameleon, and chameleon learns spells like a wizard and like a cleric, so i still can't understand your point. Cleric automatically know his entire spell list, so if he has a 7th level spell slot he could cast a 7th level spell, even if he is lv1 (granted he has an appropriate Wis score and an appropriate caster level). Wizard learns spells by copying them in his spell book. So, if lv1 wizard finds the spellbook of lv30 wizard, he could copy all the spells in the book and if he has appropriate spell slots he could cast it. In the wizard case, learning or knowing a spell is totally independent from spell slots, because he could just spend money and copy wish on his spellbook even at lv1.

Your posts here remember me of your desperate battle against the druid's animal companion and the fact that it could retrain its feats and that it gains bonus feats from the bonus hit dice that the druid gives to it.
Please, don't bring issues like that here, because it's pretty clear yet that your arguments are falling.
Also i don't have so much time like eggynack to post here every five minutes to contradict you.

I know i wrote this post in a really confusionary manner, but i have headache now (probably caused by my brain damage), and can't watch the pc screen for too long.

Sorry if I'm of bad taste, headache is faqking me.

I'll respond to bakeleven later, i can't now.

[.Zero]

Yes, your daily allotment is formed of the sum of your spells/day for each class. Meaning a Druid 1/Wizard 1 has a daily allotment of 6 / 2 spells (3/1 from each).

Nope. It's not like this. I apologize, I'm only now figuring i wrote that post very poorly.

Druid 1/ Wizard 1 is a character whose daily allotment of spells is not 6/2. If this would be true, it'd invalidate my theory, but i reasonably think that's not like that.

My main mistake was to refer to a multiclass character's multiple daily allotments of spells as a single daily allotment. Fortunately, there's no such a rule, or single line in the entire game releases that says this. I mean, a character has no daily allotment of spells, only classes have one. And multiple classes's daily allotments do not add together to a single, big daily allotment, simply because this big daily allotment doesn't exist. It was all my fault, i used "daily allotment" improperly, when referring to it as the sum of all classes daily allotments. This concept was totally insane, there's no rule back up for this (afaik), and it eventually contradicts myself.
In the end, I'm asking you to ignore that post, 'cause it was crazy.

Druid 1/ Wizard 1/ Cleric 1 is a character. The character's daily allotment of spells is made by the single classes daily allotments, but note, as i said before, there's no single daily allotment, there's no "character's daily allotment" which is the sum of all classes' daily allotments. If we want to use those words to refer to the character's daily allotment of spells, we need to know that we could lead to misunderstandings, just like i did, and maybe it's better to refer to it with other words. I'm not willing to create another rudisplork case.

Anyways, that character's daily allotment (i did it again, bloody hell!) of spells is not 9/3, that's the sum of the three classes separate daily allotments, if it would be like this, I'm ok with you, if that character takes Extra Slot it would only gain a single new slot and his daily allotment will become 10/3.

In truth, the character's daily allotment is 3/1 - 3/1 - 3/1. Remember, there's not a single "character's daily allotment", but a "character's daily allotment" is three separate daily allotment, one for each spellcasting class he has. And that's the whole point of the issue.

Given that this is true (and i hope so, if you find rules that contradict me just post 'em), what happens when this character takes Extra Slot? Let's see... Extra Slot checks your daily allotment of spells and finds out that it is made by three different daily allotments. Remember, the feat doesn't require to be bound to a single class, and you have not the faculty to choose which of your classes will gain the benefit.
"You gain one additional spell slot in your daily allotment etc..." this means that by the fact that you are not allowed to choose the feat apply to every single daily allotment at the same time. Yes, granting *one* spell slot, but one spell slot *per* daily allotment, that's the tricky part. Since determining to which daily allotment it applies is impossible (thus resulting in not a single spell slot gained, for the feat don't working) it's logical to suppose that it applies to every single daily allotment at once.

This is how i see it, but more importantly, this is where the feat text lead to, RAW-wise.

Anyways, if this works or not doesn't really matter, what really matters is the way Extra Slot interacts with Chameleon's casting, and i've proven that the gained slot applies to both Foci.

[torrasque666]

@Vogonjeltz

FAQ is no official text.



I'm sorry, where is this actually stated? Its from Wizards, thus it is a Wizards product for D&D. If its a Wizards product for D&D how is it not official? That's like saying the Mind's Eye articles(or anything else found in the archives)are not official text. Or anything really.

And if you want to make the claim that there are times where it contradicts the "official" text, there are plenty of times where the "official" text contradicts itself. Just because you don't like it for one reason or another doesn't make it unofficial.

[Vogonjeltz]

I'm sorry, where is this actually stated? Its from Wizards, thus it is a Wizards product for D&D. If its a Wizards product for D&D how is it not official? That's like saying the Mind's Eye articles(or anything else found in the archives)are not official text. Or anything really.

And if you want to make the claim that there are times where it contradicts the "official" text, there are plenty of times where the "official" text contradicts itself. Just because you don't like it for one reason or another doesn't make it unofficial.

Pretty much this. If I recall correctly the name of the document is even The Official 3.5 FAQ, or something very similar.

[.Zero]

I'm sorry, where is this actually stated? Its from Wizards, thus it is a Wizards product for D&D. If its a Wizards product for D&D how is it not official? That's like saying the Mind's Eye articles(or anything else found in the archives)are not official text. Or anything really.

And if you want to make the claim that there are times where it contradicts the "official" text, there are plenty of times where the "official" text contradicts itself. Just because you don't like it for one reason or another doesn't make it unofficial.

In all honesty, i stated that because i saw people in this forum saying that FAQ is not official. I can't remember where, can't remember when, nor who wrote such a thing. However, i don't mind if FAQ is "official" or not in this case, because its "officiality" doesn't interfere with this thread's arguments. Unless i'm still missing something from Vogonjeltz's posts. Really, i can't understand what he's trying to tell me, because i can't see RAW issues or dysfunctions here.

[torrasque666]

In all honesty, i stated that because i saw people in this forum saying that FAQ is not official. I can't remember where, can't remember when, nor who wrote such a thing. However, i don't mind if FAQ is "official" or not in this case, because its "officiality" doesn't interfere with this thread's arguments. Unless i'm still missing something from Vogonjeltz's posts. Really, i can't understand what he's trying to tell me, because i can't see RAW issues or dysfunctions here.

He's referring to page 40 of the official D&D FAQ
Can you use sanctum to pick a higher level spell than normal with the Extra Spell feat?
No, you would need to use your class’s spellcasting progression when picking the new spell learned via the Extra Spell feat, not including the benefit of the sanctum spell or similar effects.

[.Zero]

Look at this boys

"This is FAQ, not errata... Which is just a copy/paste job of the horribly written Sage article... The one that out of nowhere pulls the idea that max Dex limits any attribute contribution to AC.

Errata is a change to the RaW, FaQ is a clarification of how to handle RaI or a clarification of RaW that can be read multiple ways.

FaQ (and Sage/Cust Serv) doesn't have the authority to do things like change the ma Dex rules to apply to all attributes. Only PHB errata has that power.

This FaQ entry solves nothing, as we already knew that the preferred RaI was to limit it."

And this is the full link to the page:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1016.0

Ergo, errata is "official", FAQ is not. Also, we need to remember that FAQ did a pretty gpod job to explain certain rules in a fcking crazy way, like the example reported in that link. So FAQ, generally speaking, sucks.

@Torrasque
It seems pretty clear to me that page 40 of the FAQ is an example of liberal interpretation of the rules. Now tell me, which parts of the game says that you can't use Sanctum Spell and Extra Slot in the way my thread assumes. Are you telling me that i can't use them in that way, just becouse someone, in the name of an obscure authority, wrote that i can't? Really, think about it. On which bases is that answer "right"? There's no RAW to support that, they simply wrote what they thought to be the right answer, but that answer is based on nothing. The FAQ method of solving problems is different from errata's. The difference is that erratas change the rules, FAQ try to interpret them in a poorly manner.

But just because we seems to navigate in the sea of silliness by some time, i could just say that that FAQ concerns Sanctum Spell only. I could just use Snowcasting and Earth Spell. Really, FAQ is not official, and even if it would be, i need for answers to be based upon game rules. And that answer is not.

[torrasque666]

Until I see something from on official Wizards source stating that the FAQ isn't to be treated as eratta, then I will. A post from a forum isn't really an official Wizards source.

Even if you "graciously" agree to use that ruling, note that it says "or similar effects" and would likely include things like snowcasting and earth spell.

And that "obscure authority" that the person was writing the FAQ for happens to be the same authority for any of the other rules in the game!​

[.Zero]

Also, this

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369536-Shapechange-Spells-and-Spell-like-Abilities/page5

All the thread long the argument "is FAQ official or not" was discussed, but in the very last posts of pages 5 and 6, psyren and eggynack seem to agree that FAQ is not official.

To me, just the fact that FAQ's validity in RAW questions is debated, is sufficient to consider it a bunch of garbage. Especially if we toss in the fact that it gives explanations of the rules in a totally arbitrary way.

Again, guys, what's your point?

[torrasque666]

Actually most of the rules in it have a solid reasoning and basis. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it arbitrary.

Basically the point is, that the feat doesn't work as you think it does. Especially given that the feat seems to reference the table when it gives its example. It says "level" not "effective level" of the spell. Its pretty clear how its supposed to work.

[.Zero]

IIRC, that person is Skip Williams. The same person that says that unarmed strikes are not natural weapons and that antimagic field blocks line of sight. Cool.

Also, rules of the game seem to arguably be an official source.

If tomorrow WotC would release a new 3.5 book, stating something stupid like "spells above 1st don't exist" it would surely be an official source, but dnd community would just take that book and burn it, along with its writers.

In the end it doesn't matter what an official source is if there are written bll****s.

And this doesn't change the fact that a large part of dnd community sees FAQ as unofficial. I can't say why, but it's just like this.

And please, just read the answer to the sanctum spell question and the stonewarden question i linked to you, and tell me what you think. Seriously, can't think you can agree. Why on earth did they answer that way? On which base? They simply woke up one morning and wrote what the liked. Really, there's no real motivation for those answers.

Why it's not possible to use sanctum spell that way? Omg I'm repeating myself again and again.

Also, i don't remember the questions (maybe other forum members may help), i saw quite complex questions being answered with just plain yes or no, without explanations.

And this should be official material? Please...

The point is that the feat woked that way until today, when you two tried to make it not working, on the base of a dubious material. You even told it: "most of it", this means two things: the first obvious one is that it's not entirely as good as it should be, and the second one is that you know this fact.

It's nothing personal, it's not me that invented the Sanctum Spell + Extra Slot trick. I assumed it worked in a way because in all threads regarding this trick nobody said it doesn't work. And now i guess: why people thought it worked and i see only now these issues? I have to answer this question by assuming that every other person successfully demonstrate that the combo works.

[torrasque666]

In the end it doesn't matter what an official source is if there are written bll****s.

And this doesn't change the fact that a large part of dnd community sees FAQ as unofficial. I can't say why, but it's just like this.

It doesn't matter if they do or do not see the FAQ as unofficial. Its a product released by Wizards, it is an official Wizards product, thus it IS official regardless of how the players feel. If they choose to ignore it, then its a houserule.



And please, just read the answer to the sanctum spell question and the stonewarden question i linked to you, and tell me what you think. Seriously, can't think you can agree. Why on earth did they answer that way? On which base? They simply woke up one morning and wrote what the liked. Really, there's no real motivation for those answers.


I can actually see the basis. The Max Dex factor limits the factor that an Ability, DEX, can effect AC. It makes complete sense to extend that same factor to the other abilities. Normally, the only stat that can do so is DEX, but because there is the slight chance that something other than DEX can be applied it should be renamed Max Ability Mod?

I also understand the Sanctum Spell limit. Its only effectively that level, it isn't actually that level.



Why it's not possible to use sanctum spell that way? Omg I'm repeating myself again and again.

And this should be official material? Please...

The point is that the feat woked that way until today, when you two tried to make it not working, on the base of a dubious material. You even told it: "most of it", this means two things: the first obvious one is that it's not entirely as good as it should be, and the second one is that you know this fact.


Regardless of if you like it, or think it shouldn't be official, it doesn't matter. Did I admit that there might be factors that are stupid, wrong or contradictory? Yep. But a lot of "official" books have that problem. Like the long debated "monks aren't proficient with their unarmed strike" thing, or anything from the Dysfunction threads.



It's nothing personal, it's not me that invented the Sanctum Spell + Extra Slot trick. I assumed it worked in a way because in all threads regarding this trick nobody said it doesn't work. And now i guess: why people thought it worked and i see only now these issues? I have to answer this question by assuming that every other person successfully demonstrate that the combo works.


People thought that the world revolved around the sun for years, and nobody thought they were wrong for doing so. People thought that lightning bolts came from Zeus and nobody called them stupid for that(provided that they were among others who believed in Zeus). People believed the earth was flat and nobody said that "nope! you're wrong! its round!" until somebody did.

Point is, just because something is commonly accepted, doesn't mean its necessarily right. You're also in a forum where people want to believe it works. Echo Chamber properties and all that.

[.Zero]

FAQ is drawn from the Sage articles and the Customer Service, which are explicitly now RAW, nor official, because Skip Williams is not WotC.

I'll make a more detailed post tomorrow, it's really late here.

[torrasque666]

FAQ is drawn from the Sage articles and the Customer Service, which are explicitly now RAW, nor official, because Skip Williams is not WotC.

I'll make a more detailed post tomorrow, it's really late here.

So Dragon Magazine is no longer official material? Because that's where the articles are found.

[Coventry]

Nope, that's not how versatile spellcaster work. I figured out how this trick works while posting in this thread, and it cannot work with that feat.

Read it.


I did not say that I agreed with Turion's explanation.

I just knew of a different "answer" to the original question that had not been mentioned, yet. And then I realized that I did not want to type that in - I certainly would not allow that to occur in my campaign :smalltongue:

[.Zero]

Oops?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374208-Allez-rules-lawyers!-Three-questions-for-you!

Post #9 by Curmudgeon is the most exhaustive i think. Please note that here we have grand fathers of dnd community like curmudgeon, eggynack and tippy (omg tippy) agreeing that FAQ is not official and that's made of a massive amount of garbage, for all the reasons i explained you in my previous posts, the most notable of which is that the those who answered the question didn't know the game rules.

Also note that curmudgeon explains why it's not official.

What i was trying to tell you is that i don't care if. if FAQ's answers go in a way or in another, the point is that the answers to the stonewarden question and the sanctum spell question just don't make sense.
And they don't make sense because they're based upon nothing, because who wrote the answers wrote what the thought it would be a good answer. But they faild miserably, because there's no rule back up for thier answers.

Also note that the stonewarden answer reports the word "should". This means that what they suggest is more similar to a houserule than to rules.

What now, then?