[3.5]Any suggestions to play a Paladin of Wee Jas?

[Astralia123]

I am going to play a Paladin/Wizard of Wee Jas in a Savage Tides campaign.

I have read this article and have based my character on it: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wee_Jas
Another old thread has inspired me somewhat as well. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?182907-3-5-Paladin-of-Wee-Jas


I have found it quite a fascinating idea to play a paladin of the Witch Goddess. Although it may sound weird, it is technically feasible, as Wee Jas is a lawful neutral deity and cares mostly for the order. While she may be morally indifferent and allow evil act committed under her name, and thus her faith is potentially conflicting with the paladin code, I can see a lot of interesting roleplaying ideas arising, which is why I chose paladin instead of crusader or the like at the first place.


My DM agrees that Wee Jas may give a call to paladins at times, but he added that every paladin who serves a certain deity was personally called by that deity and demanded me to explain "why Wee Jas would call YOU in the first place".
So I decided to have my character receive the call in a more dramatic way: she had a vision in her dream when she was a youth, and saw the Lady in the dream; the Lady showed her a dream that suggested the eternal war between good and evil, and called her to a holy mission to destroy the evil disrupting the peace of the dead.
This vision was a reply to my character's prayer seeking answers to a series of ethical questions. She is the eldest daughter of a minor noble family, and has a good understanding in the gray field of the city she lives in. She has been less naive than most young paladins would have been and has had a quite cold and realistic view of ethics since she was young (much like the view of Wee Jas, that those who suffer are somewhat responsible for their own suffering), which troubled her a lot because she also has a strong sense of justice and a faith in righteousness.

The idea of rationalizing a paladin of Wee Jas is that, even when Wee Jas is morally indifferent, she may admit that goodness has its place and use, and would possible admire a good mortal (especially when she has a strong faith to the goddess). Thus while she is not good alignment herself, she may see a warrior of good alignment fit in protecting the order and other things she values.


It is unavoidable that such a character is somewhat blurred in moral; she has to work with evil priests and stand with them when necessary. But I don't think you can call it "tolerating evil" to keep an eye on the evil priests' (who are of the same faith) evil doings instead of slashing them right away. I will expect a paladin of Wee Jas say to a evil cleric of Wee Jas who is caught committing evil "Yes, you may be favored by our Lady and so are your doings permitted, but so am I and my doings." and will possibly defeat the cleric in "lawful" ways, say, by referring her sins and how she twisted the principles set by the goddess, or/and requesting the judgment from the goddess or her planar agents.


So would anyone have some suggestions in rationalizing or embodying such a character? I hope I can work with my DM to make this character more impressive, but it seems I can't expect too much inspirations from him :(

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, well Wee Jaas is a goddess of death and magic, so she very well might recruit paladins to go deal with troublesome necromancers (worshipers of Nerull mostly) While she is ok with undead, you better have given the necromancer permission otherwise she gets a bit pissed, IIRC.

Honestly as far as the death aspect goes you would act a lot like a paladin of Kelemvor, except you would only be going after evil necros and not "sanctioned" ones.

[Warlocknthewind]

Wee Jas is opposed to the desecration of the dead and abuse of the undead. So are Paladins. Seeking moral perfection while admitting the truth of never being able to reach it sounds like something a paladin of Wee Jas will do. Keeping too evil texts and writings from the who cannot handle their potency. Paladins are what I would send after a potent and abusive necromancer, if not only to see him disposed of, but to test the paladin against a foe greater than themself, something Wee Jas gets kicks out of for some cruel reason.

Mechanically, get your DM to let you use the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels w/ Sword of the Arcane Order. It's thematic, and your wizard levels will thank you.

[Blackhawk748]

Mechanically, get your DM to let you use the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels w/ Sword of the Arcane Order. It's thematic, and your wizard levels will thank you.

Seconding this, Wee Jaas LOVES arcane casters and if you happen to be one and a paladin of her, shes gonna like you. Also helps that those two sub levels are rather nice.

[OldTrees1]

I put more focus on the constructive Paladin duty(promote good) than the destructive duty(prevent evil). This fits more in line with Wee Jas' greater tolerance than the gods of most goodly Paladins. It is my duty to promote good and to redeem evil rather than slaying "monsters".

I also show more interest in things related to her portfolio (Death and Magic in particular)

[Astralia123]

Ok, well Wee Jaas is a goddess of death and magic, so she very well might recruit paladins to go deal with troublesome necromancers (worshipers of Nerull mostly) While she is ok with undead, you better have given the necromancer permission otherwise she gets a bit pissed, IIRC.

Honestly as far as the death aspect goes you would act a lot like a paladin of Kelemvor, except you would only be going after evil necros and not "sanctioned" ones.

Well I guess Kelemvor acts much more like he is ACTUALLY a good alignment deity...which removes a lot of moral conflicts for his paladins, and he is known for recruiting paladins.



Seconding this, Wee Jaas LOVES arcane casters and if you happen to be one and a paladin of her, shes gonna like you. Also helps that those two sub levels are rather nice.

Yes she is, she is a multi-class paladin/wizard and would mostly focus on her wizard levels.
It might be painful to get her through the low levels, though.


Wee Jas is opposed to the desecration of the dead and abuse of the undead. So are Paladins. Seeking moral perfection while admitting the truth of never being able to reach it sounds like something a paladin of Wee Jas will do. Keeping too evil texts and writings from the who cannot handle their potency. Paladins are what I would send after a potent and abusive necromancer, if not only to see him disposed of, but to test the paladin against a foe greater than themself, something Wee Jas gets kicks out of for some cruel reason.

Mechanically, get your DM to let you use the Mystic Fire Knight sub levels w/ Sword of the Arcane Order. It's thematic, and your wizard levels will thank you.

Thank you for the advice, but I guess the Mystic Fire Knight part would have worked better if my DM is not that much of a Faerun disliker :) I had tried to persuade him allow me use Raumathari Battlemage, which may easily play a role just like Suel Acanamach, and he refused :(
Plus, the DM hints that it will take quite a while before the PCs could level up to mid-level, so it might be a problem if this character is too down powered before certain levels. Although I'm afraid my 1paladin/6wizard/1spellsword build is no better :)

[Fax Celestis]

You could ask your DM to swap Ruby Knight Vindicator to arcane advancement. It'd fit pretty well. Paladin 4/Wizard 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator X or something. You'd have to drop feats to pick up maneuver prereqs, but that wouldn't be too bad. Without a ToB base class dip, though, you're not going to have a refresh mechanic. That's not the end of the world though: you'll have maneuvers, spellcasting, smite, and other stuff, so you'll have plenty to keep you busy. It's definitely not the most powerful but it fits your thematics.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorcerer has a lot more synergy than Wizard for combining with Paladin. The standard sorcadin build goes Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. You can get Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to get around the limited number of spells known. If you can't put (Greater) Luminous Armor on your Runestaff then you'll need to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to be able to prepare spells, so you can cast sanctified spells. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when (Greater) Luminous Armor ends.

If you're more interested in making a thematic/fun character with more paladin levels than a mechanically strong character, see if your DM is willing to adapt the Bone Knight from Five Nations to advance arcane spellcasting and allow you to cast arcane spells in the bonecraft armor it gets. In that case you could go something like Paladin 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Bone Knight 10, or possibly Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 3/ Suel Arcanamach 3/ Bone Knight 7/ whatever 3. If you're set on Wizard, then just a Paladin 4/ Wizard 1/ Bone Knight 10/ whatever 5 would be perfect. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get a Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll.

[Astralia123]

My current build is 1Paladin/6Wizard, and when the character reaches 7th level she will take a spellsword level, and then continue as Abjuration Champion, so the character would be like 1Paladin/6Wizard/1Spellsword/xAbjuration Champion in the end.
The DM allows me to use the 1st level multi-class variant to explain my background at first level; it does not really change a lot once the character becomes 2nd level (except she can use paladin as the first HD and is not considered one who leaves that class. If the DM or anyone else finds this disturbing I may well change her starting class.)

I specifically applied for the paladin and wizard variant from unearthed arcana, so she gains favoured enemy (undead) at 1st level and a fighter bonus feat at 2nd and 6th level (where she would have received scribe scrolls and a wizard bonus feat, which are lost along with Lay on Hands, turn undead and remove disease).
She is also a specialist, and is possibly a focused specialist substitute class feature(Complete Mage) but I haven't decided yet. This variant effectively grants you 3 specialization slot but 1 less normal slot per level, which means you can cast quite a bunch of spells from your specialized school but very few from other schools. You also ban 3 schools in total. She is likely to specialize in Abjuration, (it will make her more of a topic according to the campaign player's guide, because specialists other than conjurer, enchanter, illusionist and necromancer are never heard in her district.) or possibly Necromancy as it may come handy in her mission against undead creatures. If she bans 3 schools, they would be Evocation, Enchantment and Illusion.

Her starting stat is STR16, DEX14, CON12, INT14, WIS8, CHA14.
She chooses Great Feaver from the campaign sourcebook, and Force of Personality (CAd) at 1st level. She may select combat reflex and Hold the Line (CW) with her fighter bonus feat, which makes her more suitable with polearms. The feat slots at 3rd, 6th and 9th level are allocated for Arcane Strike (CW), Exalted Favored Enemy (BoED) and Combat casting.

Apparently this character would be short of BAB and hp during the painful levels, so power attack is not really an option. Polearm is a safer weapon for her, but casting need a free hand, and the most popular judgment in our groups is that switching the weapon from one-hand to two-hand wielding is a move action.


Several years ago some people in a bbs argued that it is very, very unlikely for a paladin to have a negative wisdom bonus, though. "How would you hear your god's calling then?" I don't really have an opinion here, but perhaps such a trait of the character would rationalize some negative personality?






Well, if my DM allows that Mystic Knight, this build is going to change anyway :)

And apparently he doesn't :(

[Astralia123]

You could ask your DM to swap Ruby Knight Vindicator to arcane advancement. It'd fit pretty well. Paladin 4/Wizard 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator X or something. You'd have to drop feats to pick up maneuver prereqs, but that wouldn't be too bad. Without a ToB base class dip, though, you're not going to have a refresh mechanic. That's not the end of the world though: you'll have maneuvers, spellcasting, smite, and other stuff, so you'll have plenty to keep you busy. It's definitely not the most powerful but it fits your thematics.

ToB is allowed but if the PCs use it, so do the monsters, thus I'd rather keep away from it. Considering most of my party member would be down-powered, it may not be a good idea to become much too powerful :P
Thanks for this advice, though :)



Sorcerer has a lot more synergy than Wizard for combining with Paladin. The standard sorcadin build goes Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. You can get Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) to get around the limited number of spells known. If you can't put (Greater) Luminous Armor on your Runestaff then you'll need to spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to be able to prepare spells, so you can cast sanctified spells. Get a Rod of Bodily Restoration to fix the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when (Greater) Luminous Armor ends.

If you're more interested in making a thematic/fun character with more paladin levels than a mechanically strong character, see if your DM is willing to adapt the Bone Knight from Five Nations to advance arcane spellcasting and allow you to cast arcane spells in the bonecraft armor it gets. In that case you could go something like Paladin 4/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Bone Knight 10, or possibly Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 3/ Suel Arcanamach 3/ Bone Knight 7/ whatever 3. If you're set on Wizard, then just a Paladin 4/ Wizard 1/ Bone Knight 10/ whatever 5 would be perfect. Use this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get a Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll.

The ancestral relic runestaff is a brilliant idea, I think, but I thought you can't use sanctified spell trigger items if you cast spontaneously?
The Bone Knight does not really fit my character design but I like this idea:)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The ancestral relic runestaff is a brilliant idea, I think, but I thought you can't use sanctified spell trigger items if you cast spontaneously?
The Bone Knight does not really fit my character design but I like this idea:)

A Runestaff is not a spell trigger item, you just get to cast the spells it contains from your own spell slots. A spontaneous caster would cast them as though they were spells known, a prepared caster can spontaneously convert prepared spells into them like a Cleric casts Cure/Inflict spells.

[Astralia123]

There is another consideration: my character is from a minor noble house, and she would stick to it if possible.

But maybe I should start another thread to discuss this?


Anyway, even it is not included in her starting property (1st level characters all have 150 gp equivalent possession in this game), I expect a lady from upper-class to keep some jewels and at least one dress or so (maybe a courtier's outfit or noble's outfit), regardless her actual financial status. She may also possess something special, like a silver dagger decorated as a precious jewel, which is chained around her neck that it may even serve as a holy symbol.
This might be too much to ask for a starting character, so my DM decide that she is in heavy debt and has all these possessions mortgaged. I had hoped this may serve as a side-story and a roleplaying chance, but it was cut from the schedule :(

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My current character is a Beguiler from a noble house, I started with the feat Mercantile Background in PGtF. That lets you begin play with an extra 300 gp, once per in-game month you can buy a single item for 75% of its listed price (i.e. all your starting gear if you obtained it over a long period), and whenever selling junk loot you get 75% of its value instead of the standard 50%.

[Astralia123]

My current character is a Beguiler from a noble house, I started with the feat Mercantile Background in PGtF. That lets you begin play with an extra 300 gp, once per in-game month you can buy a single item for 75% of its listed price (i.e. all your starting gear if you obtained it over a long period), and whenever selling junk loot you get 75% of its value instead of the standard 50%.

Hmm...I'm not really that into sorcerer, as a sorcerer is quite limited in spell knowledge. But if that works, I may well consider about that.
One problem is, I have not got that many feats, and I don't mind buy them later with my gain from the adventure. What I needed was just to explain why she possessed them but thanks for the advice :)