Necromancers!

[TimeWizard]

Howdy playground! Finally got a chance to start playing 5th, so I'm going to roll up a Wizard in the necromancer school. Any advice? Suggestins? Dark secrets of Life and Dea... uh, strategies?

Also, how are wizards in general at that whole "Linear Fighters Quadrictic Wizards" thing going on?

[D1ng]

Howdy! Necromancer is viewed as extremely powerful by some, simply because bounded accuracy means that a small army (10-20) of skeletons with bows can out DPR a fighter and kill most threats. However this really depends on your DM - many of the strategies in which a necromancer can really shine rely on a ready supply of bodies (preferably long dead so you can make skeletons) and a campaign world (and party) that won't try and kill you on sight for toting round a small undead army. So talk to people first before going for the undead-swarm tactic which seems optimal for necromancers. If you don't/can't go this route, a few undead, disguised or raised within the privacy of a dungeon, could be maintained and they can help out a lot (literally - use the "help" action to grant you and other party members advantage if you don't feel their damage scales) and otherwise you play as a much more conventional mage when out and about in town.

As to the "Fighters are linear, Wizards are quadratic" of yore, so as far as I can tell (and there seems to be alot of debate) its pretty much gone outside of a few OP spells. This is for a few reasons - Martial single target DPR beats that of a wizard and can be optimized more easily. Save or suck spells (with the exception of force cage and contagion) are harder to pull off and concentration limits a lot of the ways that wizards tended to beat fighters. However at very high levels its still seems that a Wizard beats out the fighter because - taken on their own without a party - a high level wizard will always beat a high level martial character, simply because the wizard will have an army of undead or simulcarum, clones as back ups and can fly, whereas the fighter is still sitting on the ground swinging his sword - its a difference that's impossible to fix without ruining the flavor of martial or arcane classes.

[Fwiffo86]

I always enjoyed the concept of White Necromancers. They specialize in eliminating undead, and putting spirits to rest. Due to their superior knowledge of undead, they get their edge. But 5 doesn't really cover that.

*shrugs*

[DrLemniscate]

... and can fly, whereas the fighter is still sitting on the ground swinging his sword shooting arrows at you, making you lose your concentration and fall to your death.

fixed that for you

[Psyren]

... and can fly, whereas the fighter is still sitting on the ground swinging his sword shooting arrows at you, making you lose your concentration and fall to your death out cold from a no-save sleep spell

And re-re-fixed

[Fwiffo86]

... and can fly, whereas the fighter is still sitting on the ground swinging his sword shooting arrows at you, making you lose your concentration and fall to your death out cold from a while shrugging off a no-save sleep spell that doesn't have enough hp to effect him.

And fixed again.

[TimeWizard]

Thank you, D1ng! I intend to just keep a few around disguised as bodyguards. Do skeleton/zombie/undeads function as kind-of-weak Fighters? What kind of damage can three crossbow weilding mooks do? Also, what's the status quo on commanding them in combat- do I take their turns completely or just "instruct" them at targets?

[D1ng]

Good strategy. Heavy cloaks, masks and a few illusion spells work great, though you may want to invest in getting deception as a trained skill to answer any awkward questions. Zombies are probably easier to pass off as humans, but skeletons are generally better (they get damage resistance and can use bows).

Best way to use them if you have only a few (and you don't want to have to constantly repair/re-animate them due to crudy AC13 and low HP, despite resistance) is to hang back and shoot bows whilst your party tank does the melee, and then commit them to stall enemies (using the dodge action) if an emergency occurs or use the grapple action en-mass (eventually an enemey will fail his saving throw) to pin down a BBEG. Use the help action before you fire off a powerful, single attack roll spell. If your party has a rogue he will also love having an undead helper to grant him advantage. Keep them spread out to avoid AoE's... Sweet spot would be to have 4 skeletons around you each day, meaning you only have to expend a single lvl 3 slot each day to keep them in line.

Control wise, Animate dead lets you order any and all of them as a bonus action on your turn, either to do specific actions or to do a general task (defend here etc). So you could start a combat by saying "kill the orcs" as a bonus action and not worry about them afterwards, but if you wanted to target specific orcs or do something unnatural (like grapple, help or dodge) you'd need the bonus action. In the absence of an order, they only defend if attacked unless they have gone feral.

Damage wise they get a +4 to hit and deal 1d6+2+your proficiency damage with either a shortsword or shortbow. A DM might let you give better armor and weapons to them (though there might be an argument about proficiency i guess...) to buff up AC and damage. But going on just the shortsword/bow thats 4d6+8+12 a round for a lvl 6 necromancer with 4 skeletons, and that's if they hit with their +4. A greatsword fighter will probably be getting 2-3 attacks a round for 4d6+8 damage, with a +7 to hit. So you have a slight edge in damage vs a non-optimized fighter, but with less accuracy (you have 4x the chance of scoring a crit though). You could take a cleric dip and use bless on your undead to increase their accuracy by a bit (a blessed undead is pretty funny IMO) but the damage is reasonable and bounded accuracy means they will remain useful so long as you keep them "alive".

As you only want a few undead, upgrade to create undead as soon as you get it (lvl 11) to control a small squad of ghouls, ghasts or wights. Then at lvl 14 track down an undead with <12 intelligence and use your control undead feature to dominate it for a final, more unique bodyguard. (Sweetspot would be 11 intelligence so that it cannot escape once dominated, but could talk and carry out complex commands and properly imitate a real bodyguard).

Fun tip: The best undead i can find to dominate with your lvl 14 feature is probably the int 10 ghost, because of its possession feature. Ghosts should be pretty easy to find, actually, and could be a fun side quest involving lots of asking around about murders at the local inn etc. Your pet ghost can now possess people, giving you a real, flesh and blood body guard (which could be anything or anyone, so long as you keep it prisoner long enough for it to fail its cha saving throw).

[TimeWizard]

Now we're cooking with fire! I can't wait to do this, and I have to start planning how I'm going to convince the crusading Paladin of zealos righteousness not to kill me. Or them. Hence, the "bodyguard" plan.

[Psyren]

And fixed again.

Fighters have 40 hp at 1st level in 5e? Amazing!

[DrLemniscate]

Fighters have 40 hp at 1st level in 5e? Amazing!

inorite? Almost as amazing as casters Flying around at 1st level.

I like the idea of a singular large bodyguard instead of an army of undead.

Finger of Death seems to be of better use for that. And hey, if it doesn't outright kill it, you can animate it anyway and deal with saving throws.

[Nevereatcars]

Fighters have 40 hp at 1st level in 5e? Amazing!

This is assumedly later-level, since the wizard is flying. AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure Fly is a 5th level spell.

[eastmabl]

Fighters have 40 hp at 1st level in 5e? Amazing!

Your odds of rolling maximum on 5d8 are in the range of 1 in 32,768.

With the average roll being 22.5, it's still higher than a first level fighter's HP. But you still have to factor in the other sheets around the fighter, since he is likely to have more HP than the rest of the party.

Sleep is powerful, but it's also a bit of a crap shoot.

[Totema]

Or, if the fighter has Fey Ancestry, s/he could completely ignore the sleep spell anyhow and continue the missile barrage.

[Doug Lampert]

Your odds of rolling maximum on 5d8 are in the range of 1 in 32,768.

With the average roll being 22.5, it's still higher than a first level fighter's HP. But you still have to factor in the other sheets around the fighter, since he is likely to have more HP than the rest of the party.

Sleep is powerful, but it's also a bit of a crap shoot.

Your top level slot will roll roughly (level+3)d8 on a sleep spell. It's level+4 on odd levels up till 17 and never gets better than 21d8 for your level 9 slot.

Against a 14 Con PC fighter who takes the average+ option for HP you succeed against equal level over half the time at level 1, 2, or 3, but not at any higher level. If you spot the fighter at 40' range or more and he's out in front you can arrange for him to be the only target by targeting the spell 15' ahead of him.

At level 5 (using one level 3 slot to fly and one to cast sleep) the odds are down to a hair better than 1 in 3 of sleep working. It gets worse from there. Sleep is not a winner in PvP past low levels.

[TimeWizard]

Could we move Fighter vs Wizard to a new thread and focus on the topic of "how to make a good necromancer"? Thanks.

[DrLemniscate]

Could we move Fighter vs Wizard to a new thread and focus on the topic of "how to make a good necromancer"? Thanks.

Let's talk about Finger of Death, and it's ability to get any humanoid even if they make their CON saving throw. Also how it allows your army to grow unbounded, rather than how Animate Dead requires you to recast it every so often.

[Doug Lampert]

Could we move Fighter vs Wizard to a new thread and focus on the topic of "how to make a good necromancer"? Thanks.

Your original post explicitly asked about LFQW. There are people with the delusion that it doesn't exist in 5th edition. There are others who think its less of a problem in 5th edition than in 3.x. There are others who don't think it was a problem in 3.x.

Wizards/fighters is on topic.

Now, what level are you building, level 1? You don't even choose a specialty till level 2, so just build a wizard.
Higher levels, look at your school features and decide how to use them.

Without knowing what level, or what houserules, or what the objective is other than "necromancer" all I can tell you is "put your best score in Int, your second best in Con, if Human variant is allowed then it's almost always the best race".

[TimeWizard]

I didn't mean for it to start the hypothetical arms race, it was ancillary to the discussion. Anyway, thanks for the race advice. I'm starting level 1 but the group has a few sessions on me and is level 3, although the exponential xp requirements to level should bridge that gap pretty quick. Why is Con #2? I don't have any 5th experience yet, so my default assumption was Dex for a little AC. But I'm assuming they changed that.

[Freelance GM]

Funny, I actually just rolled up a Level 1 future-Necromancer last night!
STR: 8, DEX: 14, CON: 14, INT: 16, WIS: 12, CHA: 8 using the point-buy, Variant Human that gets the Skill and Feat.

The reason Con > Dex is that you will get hit in 5E. The important thing is being able to take it. Most Level 1 enemies have +4's to attack, and deal enough damage to drop any PC in 2 to 3 hits. The important thing is that if you are going to get hit, then you need to be able to survive it. Personally, I'd say Con and Dex are equally important for a caster, since you can't wear armor, but if you have to make a decision, Con > Dex.

Keep in mind you will be using Dex for your weapon attacks (which are probably going to be daggers if you dump STR), but also remember that Cantrips are awesome, and if something gets close enough for a dagger to be necessary, you're probably safer using your action to Disengage, not attack.

Sleep is a wonderful spell, but your Level 2 Necromancer "Grim Harvest" feature heals you when you kill enemies. So, be sure to pick up some non-cantrip spells that deals damage. My group has come to prefer Burning Hands and Witch Bolt.

On another note, REALLY consider your character's background, and how it factors into what you want the character to do. I chose Hermit to pick up Medicine and Herbalism Kits- now I'm a Necromancer who can act as an emergency healer. I can even brew Healing potions in my spare time! However, something like Criminal would also be tempting if you want to play the sneaky, manipulative type. Plus, the enigmatic recluse and silver-tongued lurker both still fit the general theme of "that creepy wizard who's obsessed with death."

That's all I got so far. Hope you find this helpful!

[Rater202]

I always enjoyed the concept of White Necromancers. They specialize in eliminating undead, and putting spirits to rest. Due to their superior knowledge of undead, they get their edge. But 5 doesn't really cover that.

*shrugs*

Give it time, it'll turn up eventualy.

[TimeWizard]

Funny, I actually just rolled up a Level 1 future-Necromancer last night!
STR: 8, DEX: 14, CON: 14, INT: 16, WIS: 12, CHA: 8 using the point-buy, Variant Human that gets the Skill and Feat.

The reason Con > Dex is that you will get hit in 5E. The important thing is being able to take it. Most Level 1 enemies have +4's to attack, and deal enough damage to drop any PC in 2 to 3 hits. The important thing is that if you are going to get hit, then you need to be able to survive it. Personally, I'd say Con and Dex are equally important for a caster, since you can't wear armor, but if you have to make a decision, Con > Dex.

Keep in mind you will be using Dex for your weapon attacks (which are probably going to be daggers if you dump STR), but also remember that Cantrips are awesome, and if something gets close enough for a dagger to be necessary, you're probably safer using your action to Disengage, not attack.

Sleep is a wonderful spell, but your Level 2 Necromancer "Grim Harvest" feature heals you when you kill enemies. So, be sure to pick up some non-cantrip spells that deals damage. My group has come to prefer Burning Hands and Witch Bolt.

On another note, REALLY consider your character's background, and how it factors into what you want the character to do. I chose Hermit to pick up Medicine and Herbalism Kits- now I'm a Necromancer who can act as an emergency healer. I can even brew Healing potions in my spare time! However, something like Criminal would also be tempting if you want to play the sneaky, manipulative type. Plus, the enigmatic recluse and silver-tongued lurker both still fit the general theme of "that creepy wizard who's obsessed with death."

That's all I got so far. Hope you find this helpful!

I went with Scholar to get History and Arcana, allowing me to use my other two choices for Investigate and Insight (something the party was lacking). I also took the Human Variant to get the feat and picked Linguist for the extra point of Int (and I like having languages). Thanks for the recommendation to get some higher level damage spells, currently my level one spells are Sleep and Colorspray.

[Freelance GM]

Thanks for the recommendation to get some higher level damage spells, currently my level one spells are Sleep and Colorspray.

Just two? Don't forget- spellcasting is different now!

You only have 2 spells per day. But you can prepare a number of spells equal to your INT bonus + your level, which probably means you'll have 3 to 5 prepared at Level 1.

Your prepared spells basically become a list of spells known that you can cast spontaneously from. Suppose you prepared Sleep, Color Spray, Alarm, and Burning Hands. You could cast any two of those spells, or one spell twice.