[5e] Lets defeat the Half Dragon champion in HotDQ with a Level 2 Paladin.

[andhaira]

So, I am playing a Human Paladin in HotDQ. I will likely be level 2 when the Half Dragon challenges us and it's becoming pretty obvious my Paladin will be the one to accept the challenge, as the rest of the party is made up of self serving characters who will not risk their hides (due to roleplaying reasons ofcourse) Now I know the encounter is designed to be won by the evil Half Dragon, but just for fun I thought we could calculate the odds of my actually winning, and what strategy would be most conductive to such an outcome.

I have a Con of 14, with max hp at level 1 and average at each new level. So I will have 22 hp at level 2. I also have the GWF feat and I weild a greatsword. Luckily Paladin's get a nice boost at level 2, with spell casting and Divine Smite.

Since the HD has 57 hitpoints, even if I should manage to hit it's AC of 17 with my greatsword with a STR of 16, include a +10 to damage from GWF feat by taking a -5 to attack, add 2d8 from smite, and a 2d6 from Thunderous Smite, and roll max damage for all that I can only get 53 damage in one round barring any crits. And this really, really needs to end in 1 round, because the breath weapon alone of that f****r will take me out immediately if I fail my save (and Paladin's are not proficient with REF saves)

Even if the DM decides Cyanwrath will take the honorable route and go blade to blade, without using his breath weapon, it will be a loosing game. I have already used up my Lay on Hands, but even if I did not, and burned my 2 spell slots on healing spells, it's still a losing game without resorting to powerful enhanced attacks.

Honestly, after reading the level 1 spell list of the Paladin I think the best thing to do is hope the combat lasts at least 2 round, and use Wrathful Smite each round, and not burn a slot on Divine smite. Why? Because if successful WS will give Cyanwrath the Frightened condition. If I read that right, it means he cannot attack my Paladin until he manages to shake it off. And Wisdom is not his proficient save, though he does have a +2 WIS mod.

Since he cannot attack, my Paladin can keep whacking away either with -5/+10 or straight up 1d20+5 (preferable as he has an AC of 17! so much for bounded accuracy :smallfurious: ) until he dies.

Thoughts and advice?

[Madfellow]

Yeah, it sounds like Wrathful Smite is the way to go. The odds are still against you though. I personally dislike that encounter, because it's a really obvious railroad situation (This big tough guy threatens to kill people unless you let him kill you instead. No, you can't kill him; he's twice your level). If your DM is worth his salt, he'll omit that encounter entirely.

[Fwiffo86]

You do what we do. You run. You run your *** off

This is my advice to you.

Despite the trend to think otherwise. Not all encounters are meant to be beaten. I'll give an example from a friend's game.

Paladin is traveling alone. He is met on the road by another knight. He is challenged to combat, which he accepts. The paladin loses. Everything he tries, does not turn the tide to his favor. Eventually, he accepts his defeat, and acknowledges the superior knight.

After camping that night, he finds the Shield of (insert holy something) leaning against a tree that the knight from the previous day was using.

The lesson: Paladins should never turn down an honorable fight, but should know when they are beaten, and accept it.

Assuming the players are entitled to beat every encounter they come across is bad storytelling.

[Dracothius]

This is my advice to you.

Despite the trend to think otherwise. Not all encounters are meant to be beaten. I'll give an example from a friend's game.

Paladin is traveling alone. He is met on the road by another knight. He is challenged to combat, which he accepts. The paladin loses. Everything he tries, does not turn the tide to his favor. Eventually, he accepts his defeat, and acknowledges the superior knight.

After camping that night, he finds the Shield of (insert holy something) leaning against a tree that the knight from the previous day was using.

The lesson: Paladins should never turn down an honorable fight, but should know when they are beaten, and accept it.

Assuming the players are entitled to beat every encounter they come across is bad storytelling.


Agree. If you beat the half-dragon you are supposed to feel like you're impressive. It makes a better story though, if you don't, seeing as you're going to run into him again for your second chance (this time you should win)

[BRC]

The fight works, but only if you metagame a bit.

It's really easy to LOSE to the champion, but it's hard to actually DIE. Any of your party can run in after you drop and stabilize you. And if you're aware of that, the fight can become a cool roleplaying thing.

However, if you don't fully realize that "Let the big dragon hit you with his sword until you fall down" probably WON'T lead to you losing your character, it's basically asking one player to give up their character when the campaign has barely begun. But you have to have enough subconcious awareness of the rules to think "Yeah, I can lose, but I'll probably survive". I know when we got to that bit, I was thinking "It would be fun to step up, but I don't want to lose this character".

[MustacheFart]

I was the (un)lucky one to fight him in my party. We did NOT get to level to 2 before fighting him. That really pretty much put the nail in the coffin for me when you find out what I played.

I was playing a Half-Orc barbarian with the following stats: STR 18, DEX 18, CON 18. This meant I had 16 HP (damn near max at level 1) and an AC of 20. If I could hit, I could do pretty decent damage. That said, I drew first blood. After my initial attack, he then proceeded to use multi-attack and heroic surge to crit & hit me to a bloody pulp. I got back up at 1 HP because I was a half orc and I'm a frakking barbarian so that's how I roll. I managed to avoid his attacks for another two rounds as I proceeded to roll nothing high on my d20 at all--wiffing all the way for two rounds. Then came his first hit and I was gone...


There is only one sure fire way to beat that scumbag in a "melee" duel. Only one and I wasn't equipped for it (due to DM fiat). You need to be a Monk and somehow "persuade" the Half-Dragon into a battle of fisticuffs. If you can do this, you can whoop him. You'll drive his damage down to 1 damage per attack while yours will stay much higher. It's the only way I've heard of someone beating him in melee.

On second thought, if you can convince your DM to consider unarmed strikes as melee weapons then you can fight him bare knuckle and smite his ass. However, your DM might see that as in breaking your own rules causing the Halfdragon to breath you or use actual weapons.

[MustacheFart]

The fight works, but only if you metagame a bit.

It's really easy to LOSE to the champion, but it's hard to actually DIE. Any of your party can run in after you drop and stabilize you. And if you're aware of that, the fight can become a cool roleplaying thing.

However, if you don't fully realize that "Let the big dragon hit you with his sword until you fall down" probably WON'T lead to you losing your character, it's basically asking one player to give up their character when the campaign has barely begun. But you have to have enough subconcious awareness of the rules to think "Yeah, I can lose, but I'll probably survive". I know when we got to that bit, I was thinking "It would be fun to step up, but I don't want to lose this character".

hah, it's quite easy to actually DIE from that fight. Simply play a Half Orc. Done.

[Surrealistik]

Level 2 Warlock might be able to do it with Darkness + Devil Sight cheese; will have to run the math though.

[DrLemniscate]

On second thought, if you can convince your DM to consider unarmed strikes as melee weapons then you can fight him bare knuckle and smite his ass. However, your DM might see that as in breaking your own rules causing the Halfdragon to breath you or use actual weapons.

Unarmed strike is a simple weapon, as per the weapons table.

This means that most classes have proficiency with them.

[BRC]

hah, it's quite easy to actually DIE from that fight. Simply play a Half Orc. Done.

Why does playing a Half-Orc matter?

[andhaira]

I recently read on enworld that a level 2 Moon Druid beat (killed!) the half dragon by wildshaping into a bear! Before the HD died he knocked out all the druid's hp in bear form, causing him to transform back into a human, at which point he promptly shifted back into a bear on his turn and proceeded to kill him. :D

[Surrealistik]

I recently read on enworld that a level 2 Moon Druid beat (killed!) the half dragon by wildshaping into a bear! Before the HD died he knocked out all the druid's hp in bear form, causing him to transform back into a human, at which point he promptly shifted back into a bear on his turn and proceeded to kill him. :D

57/((.40*(3.5*2+4)+.05*(3.5*4+4))+(.40*(4.5+4)+.05*(4 .5*2+4))) = 6.0962 or 7 rounds (especially when Second Wind is factored) needed to kill the Half Dragon using the Brown Bear form.

Basically she has 7 rounds to get through ~85 HP + 13.5 HP (if all 3 spell slots are expended for healing).

Yeah, Moon Druid makes this easy.

[DrLemniscate]

Why does playing a Half-Orc matter?
I'm guessing because you would be at exactly 1 HP before taking another blow.

If he hits you with a big attack while you are at 5 HP, you have some room to work with. But if it he hits you with bunch of attacks while at 1 HP, the odds of dying are higher.

[MustacheFart]

Why does playing a Half-Orc matter?


I'm guessing because you would be at exactly 1 HP before taking another blow.

If he hits you with a big attack while you are at 5 HP, you have some room to work with. But if it he hits you with bunch of attacks while at 1 HP, the odds of dying are higher.

Bingo! That is correct.

Half Orc have an ability where they can get up at 1 HP if knocked down to 0 (but not killed outright). Sure, I suppose you COULD stay down once getting dropped the first time but what half orc would given the knowledge you have of the fight? All your character knows is this is a duel, presumably to the death, in exchange for a couple of hostages. If you get dropped and you COULD get back up, wouldn't you? Would you just lay there risking your enemy finishing you off?

The guy's average damage is high enough that if he hits you at 1 hp you will probably die.

Add in facts like that he has a breath weapon and action surge and it's just ridiculous.

Ultimately, it's not the railroading of the encounter I hate (though I do dislike it for that reason), it's the public humiliation of a new character. If you're a new player who shows up with a good, honorable character then you're put into the position of either A) Being dishonorable and passing on the fight or B) Accepting the fight and suffering a humiliating defeat in front of everyone at the keep. Kind of poor design since I am guessing the rematch happens at a place with far less spectators visa vi where it makes no real difference.

[MustacheFart]

I recently read on enworld that a level 2 Moon Druid beat (killed!) the half dragon by wildshaping into a bear! Before the HD died he knocked out all the druid's hp in bear form, causing him to transform back into a human, at which point he promptly shifted back into a bear on his turn and proceeded to kill him. :D

Yeah, I don't think anyone need provide a better example of why that build is broken and overpowered. When you have every other class unable to beat a foe with anything more than a slim chance in hell but then this class can do it with ease. Yeah, that's f'ed up.


EDIT: I just found another way you could/should be able to beat the Half Dragon. Assuming he has no reach then a Human Barbarian or Fighter or Paladin with a reach weapon and the Sentinal feat (Human variant) could possibly do it.

First round: If you go first, then move up to melee range (10 feet) and make an attack. Back up or just sit there afterward--it doesn't matter. On Half Dragon's turn, he will try to move into within 5' of you provoking an AoO. Assuming you hit, his movement is now 0 and he's stuck at 10 feet from you. Repeat the process. If he goes first in round one then just forgo the opening attack.

Basically you should be able to lock him down. There's obvious holes in this strategy though. 1) His breath weapon. 2) Him throwing weapons (not sure if he can/will).

Needless to say, you should be able to fair well enough to piss him off with the above strategy.

[Kornaki]

Mustache, the hole is that you only get an attack of opportunity if he moves out of your reach, not for moving around inside of your reach.

[rlc]

So you take the polearm master feat.

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, I don't think anyone need provide a better example of why that build is broken and overpowered. When you have every other class unable to beat a foe with anything more than a slim chance in hell but then this class can do it with ease. Yeah, that's f'ed up.

And it only gets _worse_! Lol

[emeraldstreak]

So you take the polearm master feat.

You can have a maximum of 1 feat with Human variant.

[Mellack]

It also relies on being able to hit him. That is probably about a 50/50 chance.

[MustacheFart]

Mustache, the hole is that you only get an attack of opportunity if he moves out of your reach, not for moving around inside of your reach.

Ah so him moving out of your 10' reach into your 5' reach doesn't provoke anymore. Well, ballsack to that one then. I go back to my challenge him to fisticuffs or apparently be a lvl 2 Moon Druid.

What's his movement? Is he kiteable with ranged?

[emeraldstreak]

Ah so him moving out of your 10' reach into your 5' reach doesn't provoke anymore. Well, ballsack to that one then. I go back to my challenge him to fisticuffs or apparently be a lvl 2 Moon Druid.

What's his movement? Is he kiteable with ranged?

30 ft. He is kiteable in theory, but it'll require going very far from the keep because it'll take time to establish enough lead for a safe shot.

[Giant2005]

57/((.40*(3.5*2+4)+.05*(3.5*4+4))+(.40*(4.5+4)+.05*(4 .5*2+4))) = 6.0962 or 7 rounds (especially when Second Wind is factored) needed to kill the Half Dragon using the Brown Bear form.

Basically she has 7 rounds to get through ~85 HP + 13.5 HP (if all 3 spell slots are expended for healing).

Yeah, Moon Druid makes this easy.

Not really... With an AC of 11 and 98.5 HP, it would take the Half-Dragon 6 turns to kill the Druid, so the odds are against the Druid to a significant degree. Also because the Dragon only needs a 5 or higher to hit, there is less wiggle-room for luck to play a role and bring forth the victory like there is for high AC characters.

[emeraldstreak]

Not really... With an AC of 11 and 98.5 HP, it would take the Half-Dragon 6 turns to kill the Druid, so the odds are against the Druid to a significant degree. Also because the Dragon only needs a 5 or higher to hit, there is less wiggle-room for luck to play a role and bring forth the victory like there is for high AC characters.

Technically the Moon Druid can have AC 12 with Hide barding bought at chargen.

[Surrealistik]

Not really... With an AC of 11 and 98.5 HP, it would take the Half-Dragon 6 turns to kill the Druid, so the odds are against the Druid to a significant degree. Also because the Dragon only needs a 5 or higher to hit, there is less wiggle-room for luck to play a role and bring forth the victory like there is for high AC characters.

What weapon does the Half-Dragon use? Also what's its Strength modifier?

[emeraldstreak]

What weapon does the Half-Dragon use? Also what's its Strength modifier?

greatsword, +4(19); he also has a spear

it's annoying he has blindsight too, beating him without it would be much easier

[Giant2005]

What weapon does the Half-Dragon use? Also what's its Strength modifier?

He gerts two Greatsword attacks that are each +6 to hit and deal 2D6+4 (average 11) damage.

[Surrealistik]

Oh, yeah in that case, that's not happening thanks to the multiattack.

Barkskin would certainly make this possible on average, but that's gained at level 3 sadly.

(98.5-(.75*(3.5*2+4)+.05*(3.5*2+4)))/((.75*(3.5*2+4)+.05*(3.5*4+4))*2) = 4.9 rounds on average (5 rounds); includes Action Surge.

So either that Enworld Druid got lucky or the DM fudged.

[andhaira]

Whoops, the moon druid feat was by someone on RPG.NET. Here is the thread and the post:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?734776-5e-So-I-played-the-first-session-of-Tyranny-of-Dragons-today-%28Spoilers%29/page24


Played 5th session last night, all we did was the fight with the half-dragon champion, that was apparently all we had left and the DM didn't want to move onto the next episode. Of course, that took a long time, several of our players spent a while proposing schemes to try to rescue the hostages without the fight which the DM had to laboriously shoot down one after another.

Was there supposed to be a "mill" scenario? Or is that in Episode 2? I don't remember ever going to a mill.

We leveled to 2 between last session and this session (our DM is in the can-level-without-a-long-rest camp) so our Moon Druid came into his own. He fought the Champion and killed him, though he did get knocked out of bear when the Champion used Action Surge. He didn't get through all of his human hitpoints though, so next round he went back into bear with his bonus action and finished the job. Took 3 rounds of attacks. Not sure if that's typical for Moon Druids, ours did get a crit on one of his claw attacks, and the Champ never did crit.

Everyone at the table was kind of stunned, there were a number of, "Damn, why don't we all just play Moon Druid?" comments.

Furthermore, there were 2 people in ENWORLD who posted their players taking on the Half Dragon as Moon Druids (not sure what level though, I think at least one was level 2) Both lost, but one of them brought the half dragon to 10 hp before going out. The DM made the Half Dragon use a spear for half the fight though instead of his greatsword, to give the player a chance. I really wonder though, did none of these half dragons use their breath weapon? Because that would end the fight right there...maybe the DMs are playing up the honor angle, which I don't mind, but if he is about to die he should surely use it...or maybe he did in the rpg.net fight??

Here is the ENWORLD thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362849-First-Session-of-HotDQ-WOW-what-a-meatgrinder

Relevant posts are on page 1 (linked) and beginning of page 2

[andhaira]

Oh and going back to my OP, is my strategy of using Wrathful Smite as a level 2 Paladin legit? If Cyanwrath fails his Will save can my Paladin just keep smacking him without retaliation? And what about his breath weapon, the frightened condition states the target cannot approach you, but doesn't say if he cannot fire weapons/breath weapon from range...

[TheOOB]

Yeah, it sounds like Wrathful Smite is the way to go. The odds are still against you though. I personally dislike that encounter, because it's a really obvious railroad situation (This big tough guy threatens to kill people unless you let him kill you instead. No, you can't kill him; he's twice your level). If your DM is worth his salt, he'll omit that encounter entirely.

I disagree, I love the encounter. HotDQ is very tough, and there are many situations where the players just can't win as straight fight(chapter 2 comes to mind, starting a fight in the cultist camp is suicide). This encounter will teach them that sometimes you just can't win, and you should be prepared for that.

[Yagyujubei]

you shouldn't be able to be level 2 during that fight, HotDQ is designed so that you don't get to level until the end of each "episode" and that is the finale of the first one. you should all be level 1 there, which is one of the most frustrating things about playing it, in my adventure league we finished the first session with over 900 xp worth of combat, but were only granted 300 at the end of one of the most brutal sessions I've ever played.

[MustacheFart]

Whoops, the moon druid feat was by someone on RPG.NET. Here is the thread and the post:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?734776-5e-So-I-played-the-first-session-of-Tyranny-of-Dragons-today-%28Spoilers%29/page24



Furthermore, there were 2 people in ENWORLD who posted their players taking on the Half Dragon as Moon Druids (not sure what level though, I think at least one was level 2) Both lost, but one of them brought the half dragon to 10 hp before going out. The DM made the Half Dragon use a spear for half the fight though instead of his greatsword, to give the player a chance. I really wonder though, did none of these half dragons use their breath weapon? Because that would end the fight right there...maybe the DMs are playing up the honor angle, which I don't mind, but if he is about to die he should surely use it...or maybe he did in the rpg.net fight??

Here is the ENWORLD thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?362849-First-Session-of-HotDQ-WOW-what-a-meatgrinder

Relevant posts are on page 1 (linked) and beginning of page 2

Read that first one where someone mentions killing him with a moon druid. He mentions doing it in like 3 rounds. I call shenanigans. Can someone do the math to even see if that's possible with a single claw crit like he mentions? I am really curious.

[Surrealistik]

Read that first one where someone mentions killing him with a moon druid. He mentions doing it in like 3 rounds. I call shenanigans. Can someone do the math to even see if that's possible with a single claw crit like he mentions? I am really curious.

It's possible but very unlikely, and it would pretty much require hitting with all of your attacks in those three rounds in addition to that crit.

[MustacheFart]

It's possible but very unlikely, and it would pretty much require hitting with all of your attacks in those three rounds in addition to that crit.

Ahh, so basically shenanigans lol.


I will say this, the encounter was tough and overall I did enjoy it. Given the sometimes obvious railroading, I would really like to play it again from the start with a more amoral party.

Can you imagine?

Dragon Champion: "Fight me or we kill the hostages."
Party: "Ok Rodrick the Strong here will fight you."
Party to Rodrick: "Okay sit tight and try to delay while we get in position"
Dragon Champion: "Okay sending the kid over but the woman stays in case you..."
Party: "FIRE" *PEW* *PEW* *PEW*
Party to Townspeople: "Hey we saved the kid but sorry it was either the woman or one of their leaders. He was too big of a threat to let go. She died for a good cause. We'll have our money now!"

Another positive is there seems to be enough conflict (not just combat) to really develop a character through. I mean this seems to be basically war and often during war good guys become bad guys and vise versa. Interesting and fun.

[andhaira]

Read that first one where someone mentions killing him with a moon druid. He mentions doing it in like 3 rounds. I call shenanigans. Can someone do the math to even see if that's possible with a single claw crit like he mentions? I am really curious.

It seems he meant it took the Moon Druid 3 rounds to kill Cyanwrath after reshifting into Bear form, which came after some rounds of combat where the half dragon knocked him out of Bear form with hp damage.

Why doesn't someone run 3 combats with lvl 2 Moon Druid vs Half Dragon to get a better idea?

[emeraldstreak]

Why doesn't someone run 3 combats with lvl 2 Moon Druid vs Half Dragon to get a better idea?


because 3 runs are statistically insignificant. Either do the average math or code a small app and run 100,000 or so

[some guy]

Oh and going back to my OP, is my strategy of using Wrathful Smite as a level 2 Paladin legit? If Cyanwrath fails his Will save can my Paladin just keep smacking him without retaliation? And what about his breath weapon, the frightened condition states the target cannot approach you, but doesn't say if he cannot fire weapons/breath weapon from range...

No, if Cyanwrath fails the save he can still attack you, but with disadvantage and he cannot approach you. You could try to hit him with Wrathful Smite and if that succeeds switch over to ranged attacks, but that takes an extra round and he can still use his ranged attacks and breath weapon.

[rlc]

I'd probably rule yes on the breath weapon.
I'm actually wondering if a half-orc moon druid is the answer now.

[andhaira]

No, if Cyanwrath fails the save he can still attack you, but with disadvantage and he cannot approach you. You could try to hit him with Wrathful Smite and if that succeeds switch over to ranged attacks, but that takes an extra round and he can still use his ranged attacks and breath weapon.

The spell states that if the victim fails his save, he cannot approach you and has disadvantage to all attacks made while you are present in a certain area (or line of sight, forget which one) So what that appears to me is that the paladin casts this spell successfully with an attack, and the target moves away from him in fear and attacks someone else. But with disadvantage while the Paladin is still around.

Now logic dictates that if the Paladin moves forward to strike him again, he should use his turn to move away from the Paladin again, instead of attacking, or attacking and then moving. He is frightened after all

Thoughts?

[MustacheFart]

The spell states that if the victim fails his save, he cannot approach you and has disadvantage to all attacks made while you are present in a certain area (or line of sight, forget which one) So what that appears to me is that the paladin casts this spell successfully with an attack, and the target moves away from him in fear and attacks someone else. But with disadvantage while the Paladin is still around.

Now logic dictates that if the Paladin moves forward to strike him again, he should use his turn to move away from the Paladin again, instead of attacking, or attacking and then moving. He is frightened after all

Thoughts?

My thought is that's a stretch, open to DM interpretation and you were looking for a more definitive way to beat him to which that is not. Sorry.


What's the guy's dex save look like? I'm half tempted to suggest pulling out the old caltrops on him. Sure he can play the "I move at half my speed" to avoid the save bit but it's possible the DM might not be aware of that. It's just as likely as the DM ruling in your favor on Wrathful Smite.

If you could cripple his movement, you can greatly increase your chance of taking him down. He only has two ranged attacks. A single spear and his breath weapon. The breath weapon is the one to worry about. What's the recharge on it, again?

[Madfellow]

What's weird is that I've talked to people who've actually played through this encounter, and they said they actually enjoyed it. That kinda threw me for a loop. The player who actually volunteers for the fight and then gets the snot beat out of them in the first turn... doesn't seem to mind it. They get to stand up and be heroic, and they don't really care how it ultimately turns out.

On the flip side, when I ran this for my group I replaced the Cyanwrath encounter with a fight against Frulam Mondath (ugh, why did they give her such a terrible name?), and I let the whole party fight her at once, not just one player. I also decided that she wasn't going to use her most powerful spell, Spirit Guardians. Instead, she used Spiritual Weapon and mostly melee attacks in that fight. This made it much more of a fair fight. When the party reduced her down to half health, she sounded a retreat and pulled back behind a line of cultists (using the Disengage action to avoid opportunity attacks).

But the party sorcerer decided he wasn't done with her yet. For the next minute or so he devoted all of his resources into trying to kill her. He created an illusion of her to trick some of her cultists. He got a few militia guys to charge her lines and thin out her troops. And finally he cast Burning Hands. Frulam still survived (with 10HP out of the 44 she started with), and he felt cheated out of his kill.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong.

[some guy]

The spell states that if the victim fails his save, he cannot approach you and has disadvantage to all attacks made while you are present in a certain area (or line of sight, forget which one) So what that appears to me is that the paladin casts this spell successfully with an attack, and the target moves away from him in fear and attacks someone else. But with disadvantage while the Paladin is still around.

Now logic dictates that if the Paladin moves forward to strike him again, he should use his turn to move away from the Paladin again, instead of attacking, or attacking and then moving. He is frightened after all

Thoughts?

Compare Wrathful Strike to the Fear spell. Fear also gives the Frightened condition but explicitly mentions targets having to move away from the caster, both Wrathful Strike and the Frightened condition say nothing about targets having to move away. They cannot approach you, but when you're next to them they still can attack you.

[MustacheFart]

But the party sorcerer decided he wasn't done with her yet. For the next minute or so he devoted all of his resources into trying to kill her. He created an illusion of her to trick some of her cultists. He got a few militia guys to charge her lines and thin out her troops. And finally he cast Burning Hands. Frulam still survived (with 10HP out of the 44 she started with), and he felt cheated out of his kill.

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong.

I've been on the end of feeling cheated out of a kill before. Typically, for me at least it was due to heavy roleplaying leading up to the fight and then extensive effort to defeat the enemy. In this case, I think it may have been purely because your party had the upperhand so the sorcerer felt over-confident, that he should've been able to stop her.

It is what it is. You're not going to GET every bad guy.


I can also understand why people did enjoy the Half Dragon encounter. You're correct in that a character gets to make the noble sacrifice at level 1 - 2. That said, I've been playing long enough that I kind of dislike it for being so railroading. You either make the noble sacrifice or you sit back looking after your own skin while being punked. It's just kind of a weak encounter that forces a lose situation onto players with a fair possibility of even worse results (ie. the player dieing).

Ideally, I would've liked a bit more depth to it. Perhaps, the chance to parlay the champion into a group battle rather than a 1 on 1. Sure, your DM may allow that but it would've been nicer if the module included something like that. Then again, given that you see him again it is clear that they didn't want you to win or have a fair shot at it...at all. So at this point I am just kinda "meh" about the encounter.

I'm curious though when you can fight the guy again. I know you see him outside a command tent in the next chapter but supposedly attacking would be committing suicide. There's got to be a point where you can face him without so many enemies around. I just hope it comes at a point where my Barbarian is high enough level to kill him 1 on 1. The inevitable spikes on my shoulder are missing his head. :)

[Madfellow]

I'm curious though when you can fight the guy again. I know you see him outside a command tent in the next chapter but supposedly attacking would be committing suicide. There's got to be a point where you can face him without so many enemies around. I just hope it comes at a point where my Barbarian is high enough level to kill him 1 on 1. The inevitable spikes on my shoulder are missing his head. :)

If you don't mind a spoiler:
You fight him again in the third adventure of the series, a classic dungeon delve into the dragon hatchery hidden in the back of the cult's encampment (most of the cultists have left at this point). The party is expected to be level 3 at this point. He's still CR 4, and he still demands a one-on-one fight. He has a pair of cultist lackeys with him, and if another party member interferes, so do they. As written, the module seems to assume that the party (or a lone PC) is capable of killing him at this point, though I can't fathom how. I think the adventure's designers misunderstood how the CR system is supposed to work. Or they're just sadistic.

My solution? Cyanwrath simply doesn't exist in my game. Any time the party would fight him, they fight Frulam instead (she's CR 2). And no one-on-one bull either.

Also, here's some advice on that adventure that can help prevent a TPK:
There's this one room that has a squad of kobolds and a pit with three Guard Drakes in it. They're like Ambush Drakes, but bigger and meaner. Now this is very important: DO NOT ATTACK THE GUARD DRAKES!

[Surrealistik]

@ Madfellow:

Moon Druid can definitely beat Cyanwrath with consistency at L3, complements of Barkskin in particular; forget it at L2 though; it's possible but you'll need luck.

[Madfellow]

@ Madfellow:

Moon Druid can definitely beat Cyanwrath with consistency at L3, complements of Barkskin in particular; forget it at L2 though; it's possible but you'll need luck.

And if the party doesn't happen to have a druid?

[Surrealistik]

And if the party doesn't happen to have a druid?

Well it's the party's fault for not using a blatantly overpowered class to deal with a blatantly overpowered threat, now isn't it? :smalltongue:

[Madfellow]

Well it's the party's fault for not using a blatantly overpowered class to deal with a blatantly overpowered threat, now isn't it? :smalltongue:

Is the druid really that powerful?

[emeraldstreak]

L3 is a lot. An L3 Barbarian should be able to win the fight with some consistency.

[emeraldstreak]

Is the druid really that powerful?

The Moon one, yes. He can turn twice into a CR 1 beast, and CR 1 is appropriate encounter for an entire party of lvl 1s.

[Giant2005]

He shouldn't be too difficult for anyone at level 3 - our level 1 Barbarian with a shameful strength of 15 almost had him beat but was brought down by the fire breath which he didn't have the HP to endure even though he make his Dex save. If he was human with the Shield Master feat to reduce that damage to zero, he could have won. Coincidentally, that player is now playing a human that does have that feat.
Worth noting is that you don't really have to fight him entirely solo - my Bard was assisting that Barbarian with inspiration buffs and even snuck in a vicious mockery although it was only a single vicious mockery because the DM rolling some kind of save to determine if the Half-Dragon realized my insults were an attack and I was too afraid to tempt fate twice.

[Surrealistik]

Is the druid really that powerful?

Yes.


He shouldn't be too difficult for anyone at level 3 - our level 1 Barbarian with a shameful strength of 15 almost had him beat but was brought down by the fire breath which he didn't have the HP to endure even though he make his Dex save. If he was human with the Shield Master feat to reduce that damage to zero, he could have won. Coincidentally, that player is now playing a human that does have that feat.
Worth noting is that you don't really have to fight him entirely solo - my Bard was assisting that Barbarian with inspiration buffs and even snuck in a vicious mockery although it was only a single vicious mockery because the DM rolling some kind of save to determine if the Half-Dragon realized my insults were an attack and I was too afraid to tempt fate twice.

The vast, vast majority of builds will still die to him at L3 between the breath, action surge and two attacks per round vs the one attack everyone at this level has.

A level 1 Barbarian beating this guy pretty much requires all the luck in the world, and just slightly less to come close to winning.

[DrLemniscate]

Call his honor in to question.

Toss your weapons to the side.

Challenge him to fisticuffs.

Be a druid.

Turn in to a Bear and maul his face.

Earn that Chaotic alignment.

[MustacheFart]

Call his honor in to question.

Toss your weapons to the side.

Challenge him to fisticuffs.

Be a druid.

Turn in to a Bear and maul his face.

Earn that Chaotic alignment.


My plan since I will be meeting him pre-Extra attack or feat is to do just that. I'll challenge him to fisticuffs. If he doesn't accept then he lacks the honor that I believe him to lack and we'll attack him as a party.

Can someone run the math on a lvl 3 Barbarian with Beat Totem versus this guy? I'd like to know the statistical probability of success.

[Madfellow]

My plan since I will be meeting him pre-Extra attack or feat is to do just that. I'll challenge him to fisticuffs. If he doesn't accept then he lacks the honor that I believe him to lack and we'll attack him as a party.

Can someone run the math on a lvl 3 Barbarian with Beat Totem versus this guy? I'd like to know the statistical probability of success.

Got a character sheet?

[Surrealistik]

I assume you have a +4 Strength mod, so a 50% chance to hit with proficiency (+6 vs 17 AC).

With Brawler:

57/(.45*(2.5+4)+.05*(2.5*2+4)) = 16.89 (17) rounds

Without:

57/(.5*(1+4)) = 22.8 (23) rounds


Cyanwrath (with Action Surge, assuming Bear Totem Rage which nullifies his multi-attack and he doesn't use his breath weapon)

(38-.35*(1+4))/(.35*(1+4)) = 20.71 (21) rounds

So you'll still probably lose unless you have Tavern Brawler, or you have a Monk level.

[MustacheFart]

I assume you have a +4 Strength mod, so a 50% chance to hit with proficiency (+6 vs 17 AC).

With Brawler:

57/(.45*(2.5+4)+.05*(2.5*2+4)) = 16.89 (17) rounds

Without:

57/(.5*(1+4)) = 22.8 (23) rounds


Cyanwrath (with Action Surge, assuming Bear Totem Rage which nullifies his multi-attack and he doesn't use his breath weapon)

(38-.35*(1+4))/(.35*(1+4)) = 20.71 (21) rounds

So you'll still probably lose unless you have Tavern Brawler, or you have a Monk level.

What about the extra damage from Rage? It doesn't look like you added that in.

Also what would it look like if we used weapons (his longsword and my greataxe)?

[Surrealistik]

Oh yeah, my bad.

With rage bonus damage it'd take you 16-17 rounds, so doable.

[MustacheFart]

Got a character sheet?

Sure, here are my current stats:

Currently Lvl 1 Half-Orc Barbarian (will be Bear Totem Barbarian at level 3 when I face Half Dragon)

HP: 16 (12 + 4 Con)
AC: 20 (10 + 4 Dex + 4 Con + 2 Shield)
STR: 18
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 12
WIS: 17
CHA: 15

Weapon: Currently, I have a few spears, some daggers, a longsword, and a warhammer. Though, by level 3 I could have whatever weapon I needed to kill the Half Dragon.

I am looking for whatever is my best statistical chance. I must kill that bastard in a 1 on 1. Though I doubt it, but if there are any magic items/potions/whatever that I may find in the module before I encounter him again please let me know. I am not against using whatever it takes as long as it comes from me, to beat that bastard.

Also keep in mind my wife is playing a rogue. She will be going trickster rogue so if there's any (buff) spell she would/could get at level 3 that could greatly aid me I'm good with that too. I married the woman, I'll make her hold one back for me LOL. That sucker action surged on me last fight so I won't feel bad taking a buff.


I must promptly plant his head on my right shoulder spikes. If I can get his fellow guard then his head will go on the left shoulder spikes.


Statistica

[Envyus]

My parties Paladin managed to beat him in the 2nd encounter one on one. Cyanwrath remembered him and acknowledged he had grown stronger since their last meeting. The duel's conditions were that the losers party would permanently withdraw from the cave. I don't know if my party would have kept their word as the Pally defeated him. The duel was 5 rounds.

Round 1. Cyanwrath won initiative, tossed his spear at the Pally and missed, before running in and slashing with the greatsword hitting and dealing 7 damage. The Pally used smite with his greatsword and hit for 17 damage.

Round 2. Cyanwrath used Lightning breath and rolled a low 14 which the Pally barely saved against. The Pally decided to put his greatweapon fighting feat to good use and used the power attack option. With the minus 5 he managed to hit Cyanwrath's AC on the dot and deal 19 damage.

Round 3. Cyanwrath did not recharge so he greatsworded twice. He hit once for 9 damage and action surged and missed both times. The Pally attacked again with Greatweapon fighting but missed.

Round 4. Cyanwrath attacked again but his first roll was a 1 and his second roll came up 1 short of a hit. (Cyanwrath rolled pretty poorly this fight.) The Pally got lucky and got a crit which he smited on. The damage came up pretty low with only a 13, but he got a 2nd attack due to his Great Weapon master feat so a 2nd attack connected for a rather tiny 6 damage. Cyanwrath did not get his Breath weapon back

Round 5. Cyanwrath did not get his breath weapon back so he yielded. Cyanwrath was at 2 hp and the Pally had 8 and I ruled that Cyanwrath was not not sure he would fell the Paladin before he fell.

I had Cyanwrath take his lose with a decent amount of grace. He admitted defeat and acknowledged that his life was in the Paladin's hands, but he also made it clear he was not going to beg for his life or give them any information that would damage the Cult of the Dragon. The Paladin spared him and the rest of the party had no real issue with letting him and his henchmen leave the cave. (I think I made Cyanwrath likable enough that they got kind of fond of him) The Pally then said he wished to duel Cyanwrath again in the future to serve as a tiebreaker for their duels. Cyanwrath left giving them a bit of information. How they did not have to destroy the Dragon Eggs to prevent them from hatching that simply moving them out of the cave would keep them from incubating. (He did not give info that would damage the cult as the eggs still being around is better then them being smashed.)

Overall it was a good scenario and the party found Cyanwrath memorable.

[Speaker]

You might be able to beat him with the shield master feat at level one. Attack then shove him to the ground. Hopefully you could rinse and repeat till he died.

[Madfellow]

I am looking for whatever is my best statistical chance. I must kill that bastard in a 1 on 1. Though I doubt it, but if there are any magic items/potions/whatever that I may find in the module before I encounter him again please let me know. I am not against using whatever it takes as long as it comes from me, to beat that bastard.

Sadly, there aren't any magic trinkets to pick up before the fight. A couple Potions of Healing, but that's it.


My parties Paladin managed to beat him in the 2nd encounter one on one. Cyanwrath remembered him and acknowledged he had grown stronger since their last meeting. The duel's conditions were that the losers party would permanently withdraw from the cave. I don't know if my party would have kept their word as the Pally defeated him. The duel was 5 rounds.

:smalleek: Wow. Now that's a boss fight!

[MustacheFart]

My parties Paladin managed to beat him in the 2nd encounter one on one.

Good stuff. 1 question though. What level was the pally? If under level 4 i assume he was a human with the variant feat option.

Statistically speaking, since it was cyanwrath's turn and he had potentially 2 attacks he most likely would've won; however, it's beyond realistic to not risk it if he thought the pally would spare him.

[Surrealistik]

Sadly, there aren't any magic trinkets to pick up before the fight. A couple Potions of Healing, but that's it.

He's fine; as I mentioned, an L3 Barbarian of his stats will consistently beat out Cyanwrath assuming he can get him to agree to fisticuffs thanks to resist all and the rage damage bonus.


As for the above mentioned Paladin, that was pretty cool, but it was certainly a win predicated entirely on luck; beating Cyanwrath is possible at L1-L2, but it does require excellent rolling, and equally poor rolling on Cyanwrath's part.

[Envyus]

Good stuff. 1 question though. What level was the pally? If under level 4 i assume he was a human with the variant feat option.

Statistically speaking, since it was cyanwrath's turn and he had potentially 2 attacks he most likely would've won; however, it's beyond realistic to not risk it if he thought the pally would spare him.

Level 3 variant human. Added on Cyanwrath would not know how much HP the Pally had left. Combined with the fact he did not get his breath weapon back aka the thing that was more or less guaranteed to drop him and the rather poor luck with rolls Cyanwrath had I had had Cyanwrath give up.

There was a lot of tension on round 5 in case the breath weapon recharged. So everyone was pretty happy when it did not.

[Suichimo]

I was the unfortunate SoB that got to fight him in my group. It was decided by my Dwarf Paladin and our Half-elf Monk/Bard playing Rock, Paper, Scissors.

To be honest, even though I lost horribly, didn't land either of the two attacks I got, I enjoyed the outcome of the fight.

My Paladin's stats are 16 Str, 7 Dex, 16 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, 18 Cha. I had 23 HP and 19 AC, 21 with Shield of Faith. I started the fight off with an attack midsentence hoping to get the drop on him... nope. I was rolling crappy all night to begin with. His turn came around and he rolled 32 on his damage roll for his breath weapon. My one lucky roll that night came when, despite my -2 Dex save, I made the save for half damage. My turn again and I struggled to just try and hit him, I missed yet again. He then attacks me with his Greatsword, and crits. This drops me down to about -9 and I fall. He then plants his spear in me giving me a failed death save. Our Monk/Bard throws me a Healing Word.

At this point, the half dragon has turned to start walking away, having let the woman go, when I regain consciousness. I call out to him and ask him his name. As he turns around to tell me, he sees me standing there offering him a handshake. We shake hands as I give him his due respect and tell him that next time will be different.

[MustacheFart]

I was the unfortunate SoB that got to fight him in my group. It was decided by my Dwarf Paladin and our Half-elf Monk/Bard playing Rock, Paper, Scissors.

To be honest, even though I lost horribly, didn't land either of the two attacks I got, I enjoyed the outcome of the fight.

My Paladin's stats are 16 Str, 7 Dex, 16 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, 18 Cha. I had 23 HP and 19 AC, 21 with Shield of Faith. I started the fight off with an attack midsentence hoping to get the drop on him... nope. I was rolling crappy all night to begin with. His turn came around and he rolled 32 on his damage roll for his breath weapon. My one lucky roll that night came when, despite my -2 Dex save, I made the save for half damage. My turn again and I struggled to just try and hit him, I missed yet again. He then attacks me with his Greatsword, and crits. This drops me down to about -9 and I fall. He then plants his spear in me giving me a failed death save. Our Monk/Bard throws me a Healing Word.

At this point, the half dragon has turned to start walking away, having let the woman go, when I regain consciousness. I call out to him and ask him his name. As he turns around to tell me, he sees me standing there offering him a handshake. We shake hands as I give him his due respect and tell him that next time will be different.

Sadly, if you roll the same way then the "next time" won't be any different. He's a CR 4 creature still when you meet him at level 3.

[Suichimo]

Sadly, if you roll the same way then the "next time" won't be any different. He's a CR 4 creature still when you meet him at level 3.

My group leveled to 3rd after beating him. Will it be that short of a wait?

[hymer]

What's the area of the encounter(s) like? Could, say, a rogue archer kite him to death?

[Madfellow]

What's the area of the encounter(s) like? Could, say, a rogue archer kite him to death?

Unfortunately, no; it's a fairly small room, and he does have his recharging breath weapon and his one-use action surge. I don't think kiting will get you far.

However...

There is a trap in the room that you might be able to take advantage of.

Hmm...

[MustacheFart]

My group leveled to 3rd after beating him. Will it be that short of a wait?

Wait. How many times have you fought him? You just fought him outside the keep and you leveled to 3rd level already? If so, jeez you're way ahead of the curve and will most likely be 4th-5th level then when you fight him. I was assuming correct leveling was being used. You should be only level 2 after you fight him the first time.


Unfortunately, no; it's a fairly small room, and he does have his recharging breath weapon and his one-use action surge. I don't think kiting will get you far.

However...

There is a trap in the room that you might be able to take advantage of.

Hmm...

What trap? This is news to me. Please PM/post in SPOILER tags what the trap is.

[Easy_Lee]

Seems to me the only consistent way to beat this guy at 2-3 is to be a monk, trick him into a bare hands duel, and knock the everloving crap out of him. You still would have to roll well and save vs breath.

[MustacheFart]

Seems to me the only consistent way to beat this guy at 2-3 is to be a monk, trick him into a bare hands duel, and knock the everloving crap out of him. You still would have to roll well and save vs breath.

You don't need to be a Monk. Speaking purely mathematically, a barbarian can do it as well assuming he has Rage available to him due to damage resistance and bonus damage. I'm speaking of the fisticuffs duel of course.


I'm curious about this aforementioned "trap" in the room. As a Barbarian I've had little to no difficulty shoving creatures before. If this trap is at all damaging (either directly or indirectly) I should be able to push him into it.

[Kornaki]

Level 3 variant human. Added on Cyanwrath would not know how much HP the Pally had left. Combined with the fact he did not get his breath weapon back aka the thing that was more or less guaranteed to drop him and the rather poor luck with rolls Cyanwrath had I had had Cyanwrath give up.

There was a lot of tension on round 5 in case the breath weapon recharged. So everyone was pretty happy when it did not.

There's an interesting metagaming question here - does Cyanwrath know he was rolling poorly during that fight in some sense, or does he just think your paladin is a master of defense now? It would dramatically change the logic behind giving up at the end.

[Suichimo]

Wait. How many times have you fought him? You just fought him outside the keep and you leveled to 3rd level already? If so, jeez you're way ahead of the curve and will most likely be 4th-5th level then when you fight him. I was assuming correct leveling was being used. You should be only level 2 after you fight him the first time.

That was the first time we fought him and it was outside of the keep. We're using actual experience instead of just leveling when the book says to, apparently the book supports both methods.

We've saved every villager we've come across, including every single person in the burning mill.

[emeraldstreak]

moon druid - giant octopus at 2 does it

[emeraldstreak]

There's an interesting metagaming question here - does Cyanwrath know he was rolling poorly during that fight in some sense, or does he just think your paladin is a master of defense now? It would dramatically change the logic behind giving up at the end.

IMO as dramatically appropriate. IE when Hector stumbled into a rock in Troy Achilles was like "Im not going to let a natural 1 take away my glory".

While in a SAGA game once I had a dark side PC roll high and hard press by far the best Jedi NPC sabermaster. I felt it was more appropriate the NPC to attribute this development to the PC's growing reputation.

[Madfellow]

What trap? This is news to me. Please PM/post in SPOILER tags what the trap is.

There is a treasure chest in the corner of the room. If it is moved, the room starts filling with acid. It forces a Dex save, followed by a Con save, causing damage if either or both are failed. Cyanwrath is proficient with Con saves, though, and his odds are still better than 50/50 for passing his Dex save. If you can find a way to impose disadvantage on his saves AND incapacitate him, you could just hang back and let the acid do your job for you.

I think in order to prevent the GM from calling Shenanigans, this would have to be a two-man operation. One party member challenges Cyanwrath and fights him mono-a-mono, while the party rogue/skillmonkey asks, "Hey GM, there any treasure in this room I can loot while the big guy is distracted?"

[SaintRidley]

moon druid - giant octopus at 2 does it

Seems like you would start suffocating immediately unless you carry a bathtub as gear.

[emeraldstreak]

Seems like you would start suffocating immediately unless you carry a bathtub as gear.

nope. read its entry

[Strill]

You might be able to beat him with the shield master feat at level one. Attack then shove him to the ground. Hopefully you could rinse and repeat till he died.

Being knocked prone only inhibits your movement and gives attackers advantage. It doesn't make you lose your turn.

[MustacheFart]

There is a treasure chest in the corner of the room. If it is moved, the room starts filling with acid. It forces a Dex save, followed by a Con save, causing damage if either or both are failed. Cyanwrath is proficient with Con saves, though, and his odds are still better than 50/50 for passing his Dex save. If you can find a way to impose disadvantage on his saves AND incapacitate him, you could just hang back and let the acid do your job for you.

I think in order to prevent the GM from calling Shenanigans, this would have to be a two-man operation. One party member challenges Cyanwrath and fights him mono-a-mono, while the party rogue/skillmonkey asks, "Hey GM, there any treasure in this room I can loot while the big guy is distracted?"

Damn... I have a rogue in the party but she's not likely to just make that call on her on. Not that it's out of character for a rogue but just that I can't see the player doing it. So, I'd have to metagame to really give her the heads up. What's the damage look like on the trap? Also is it two saves each round? Or is it, pass and you're fine but fail and you continue to take damage every round?

[Madfellow]

Damn... I have a rogue in the party but she's not likely to just make that call on her on. Not that it's out of character for a rogue but just that I can't see the player doing it. So, I'd have to metagame to really give her the heads up. What's the damage look like on the trap? Also is it two saves each round? Or is it, pass and you're fine but fail and you continue to take damage every round?

The Dex save is for 2d6 damage, one time only. The Con save is for 2d8, and it's implied to also be one-time only, but I think the module is assuming that everyone leaves the room as soon as the acid starts coming out. If they don't, I would rule that you'd have to repeat the Con save every turn. I don't know if your DM will rule the same way though.

[Forum Explorer]

So I'm not seeing how the Moon Druid can turn into a bear at level 2. According to the PHB they can only turn into a beast with a challenge rating of 1/4 and Black Bears have a challenge rating of 1/2.

[Suichimo]

So I'm not seeing how the Moon Druid can turn into a bear at level 2. According to the PHB they can only turn into a beast with a challenge rating of 1/4 and Black Bears have a challenge rating of 1/2.

Moon Druids get advanced wild shaping. At level 2, they can go as high as Challenge 1.

[MustacheFart]

The Dex save is for 2d6 damage, one time only. The Con save is for 2d8, and it's implied to also be one-time only, but I think the module is assuming that everyone leaves the room as soon as the acid starts coming out. If they don't, I would rule that you'd have to repeat the Con save every turn. I don't know if your DM will rule the same way though.

The problem with that one is I can't even think of a single way at all that I could trip that trap without it appearing as shenanigans.

[Forum Explorer]

Moon Druids get advanced wild shaping. At level 2, they can go as high as Challenge 1.

Ooh, that is pretty absurdly crazy for such a low level.

[Madfellow]

The problem with that one is I can't even think of a single way at all that I could trip that trap without it appearing as shenanigans.

Yeah, you're probably right.