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The Insanity
2014-09-18, 04:12 PM
What tactics could Eilistraee's worshippers use to convert Lolth followers and priestesses to Good, preferably into Eilistraee worship?

LibraryOgre
2014-09-18, 04:19 PM
The problem comes in that alignment is really hard to change, barring massive magic. Evil is self-serving, so the prime tactic to fostering good would be to find a way to instill in them a large degree of empathy for others, reducing their likelihood of causing pain.

jedipotter
2014-09-18, 05:23 PM
What tactics could Eilistraee's worshippers use to convert Lolth followers and priestesses to Good, preferably into Eilistraee worship?

Well....you understand things like this are not really made for a typical D&D-like adventure. Or an adventure for any other combat role-playing adventure game. You can't really ''adventure to convert''....it just does not work.

The role-playing answer is to show all the evil followers of Lolth that good can be good for them. Such as:

1.Go for the poor. Every drow settlement has the lowest of the low, the drow that do menial work. The drow that have no hope. The drow that live very boring, commoner lives. But they still worship Lolth, but they don't really get anything from the worship. So the good guy can come in and save the day. Tell the drow folk that they should be good. Everything will be better if they are good. You can promise them anything, as really, anything is better then being a drow nobody. You can grab plenty of drow with the promise of a new day.

2. Go for the renagades and the fifth rank clerics and below. When your sister five, you know you will always be at the bottom in your family of Lolth clerics. But Eilistraee is not like that, she does not 'rank' clerics...so a great way to become more powerful is to step outside of the normal. Even if you must be good to get it...but so what, what has evil done for you lately.

3 Go for the strength of numbers. Good can provide a nice strong group think for things like honesty and trust. Once each drow is not worried about back stabs and assassins, they can work together and become more powerful.

The Insanity
2014-09-18, 05:59 PM
The problem comes in that alignment is really hard to change, barring massive magic.
Well, yeah, that's why I need help with that.


Evil is self-serving, so the prime tactic to fostering good would be to find a way to instill in them a large degree of empathy for others, reducing their likelihood of causing pain.
Of course. But HOW is the question.

Icewraith
2014-09-18, 06:47 PM
Fashionable spider hat of opposite alignment. Won't get them into Eilistraee's church but will get em out of Lolth's. Also has massive backfire potential.

Alternatively: destroy Lolth. No more church of Lolth!

Magic that's not mind altering:

Illusion spell that allows the target to experience the lack of fear and paranoia found in a life among good aligned creatures. Alternatively, stimulates the empathic pathways in the brain so the brain is more likely to start using them again. (Might be healing magic?)

Bribes.

Edit:
Specialized versions of polymorph. Possibility to kill subjects via glandular rupture ("the Grinch's small heart grew three sizes that day"), strong possibility spells will be quickly misused for hedonism (granted, this may already be a thing or just something spellcasters do anyways) or used to corrupt clergy into serving Malcanthet/Grazz't etc.

toapat
2014-09-18, 07:33 PM
A problem i see also is that Eilistraee's holy symbol doesnt really help out here. I mean, Lolth's is clearly a stylized spider, where as Eilistraee's is a self portrait of a female drow. So some paladin leading by example with a slave/lower class uprising wouldnt gather the same momentum. Sure this is drow society where a dress containing more then 6-12 square feet (and most of that being skirt) of fabric is considered extravagant.

Sanctify the Wicked/Mindrape+Atonement have been said to be off the table.

I think, however, the real problem is Eilistraee has the problem that most of her followers were raised in paranoid backstabbing societies where the only thing keeping you safe is either how little you matter or how absolutely terrifying your parents are. Getting this out of there requires not just killing off virtually the entirity of the drow nobility, upper class, and middle class, but some method of immortality, of which only Wedded to History would allow you to be a benevolent dictator long enough to do so. And by the point where you have the power to conquer, hold, and protect a single city of Drow from Lolth just collapsing the cavern, its faster to just teleport into the abyss, rip out her heart, and fuse her essence into eilistraee

Shalist
2014-09-18, 07:53 PM
It's worth mentioning that BoED, pg 28, has a section on mercy and redemption, with both flavor and crunch for using diplomacy on your evil non-good prisoners to affect an alignment shift.

edit:

While in need of slight reflavoring, the pendant of redemption (CC pg 140, 8000g) seems rather appropriate for a deity who emphasizes redemption. It grants a +5 (competence) to diplomacy or intimidation, depending on whether or not they can be redeemed; paladins wearing it while using detect evil instead see what the person must do to 'achieve full redemption in the eyes of their deity,' and also receive a +10 (competence) diplomacy for convincing folks to pursue such goals.

El Dorado
2014-09-18, 09:37 PM
Clerics and paladins of Eilistraee would need to demonstrate their power, specifically the ability to defeat their counterparts in Lolth's church. They would need to show that they can protect potential converts from the inevitable reprisals from Lolth's worshippers.

A large, well-established community of Eilistraeen worshippers has the best chance in drawing in others. I would take care in screening applicants, however. I'm sure a Lolth-worshiper would betray such a community if doing so would advance their own standing in Lolth's hierarchy.

How many potential converts are we talking about?

The Insanity
2014-09-18, 11:14 PM
It's more about converting individual people than whole groups. You know, one person at a time.
A well-established Eilistraeen community would get found out quickly and destroyed if they attempted to openly convert in a Lolthite dominated city. Don't forget that every other religion (maybe with the exception of Selvetarm's church) is prohibited and non-Lolthite's are considered heretics and killed on sight.

Psyren
2014-09-19, 12:15 AM
Be an Emissary of Barachiel. Make them fail 7 saves - bam, they are good, no matter what.

If they are drow, Eilistraee is probably the only church that would accept them at that point - mission accomplished.

The Insanity
2014-09-19, 12:20 AM
I'm looking more for roleplaying advice, not mechanical ways to force an alignment change.

Psyren
2014-09-19, 01:21 AM
In that case - do what any good cleric would do, and show the converts how much the afterlife will suck if they don't switch teams.

toapat
2014-09-19, 02:38 AM
In that case - do what any good cleric would do, and show the converts how much the afterlife will suck if they don't switch teams.

the only problem is as i pointed out, Eilistraee has a very poor holy symbol for getting people behind. Most gods have something clearly stylized that is different from but associated with them. Eilistraee is just a nude portrait of her. in combination with her church being secretive, getting "Convert by example" to work simply wouldnt happen. and as i pointed out, by the point you could effectively convert drow at any reasonable rate, Sanctify the Wicked and brutally murdering lolth are on the table as options.

Oh, i forgot. Eilistraee's Dogma litterally prevents mass drow conversion.

Psyren
2014-09-19, 09:08 AM
the only problem is as i pointed out, Eilistraee has a very poor holy symbol for getting people behind. Most gods have something clearly stylized that is different from but associated with them. Eilistraee is just a nude portrait of her.


Eilistraee is just a nude portrait of her.


nude portrait


nude

I fail to see the problem :smalltongue:



Oh, i forgot. Eilistraee's Dogma litterally prevents mass drow conversion.

How so? I don't see anything like that in her dogma.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-19, 12:12 PM
In that case - do what any good cleric would do, and show the converts how much the afterlife will suck if they don't switch teams.

The CE afterlife doesn't suck if you're CE. It's going to a world where everything functions like you always thought it did... might really DOES make right, and you really ARE the most important person, and screw all those other ****ers who kept you down.

There's nothing wrong with a CE afterlife if you're CE. You're not there as punishment for being bad.

Scots Dragon
2014-09-19, 12:23 PM
The CE afterlife doesn't suck if you're CE. It's going to a world where everything functions like you always thought it did... might really DOES make right, and you really ARE the most important person, and screw all those other ****ers who kept you down.

There's nothing wrong with a CE afterlife if you're CE. You're not there as punishment for being bad.

Except of course that might makes right being perfectly correct also comes with the fact that the place is run largely by terrifying godlike demons who want to have fun torturing you for all eternity and therefore it's their might meaning that it's their right. Being chaotic evil is a double-edged sword. It's perfectly nice when you're the one on top on top, but let's face it... you're almost certainly not the one on top.

Lord Torath
2014-09-19, 03:13 PM
How so? I don't see anything like that in her dogma.Yes, please. Can you elaborate on the relevant points of dogma, Toapat?


Except of course that might makes right being perfectly correct also comes with the fact that the place is run largely by terrifying godlike demons who want to have fun torturing you for all eternity and therefore it's their might meaning that it's their right. Being chaotic evil is a double-edged sword. It's perfectly nice when you're the one on top on top, but let's face it... you're almost certainly not the one on top.This is very true. Even really powerful evil characters start out as larva on the lower planes, right? And then some get converted to lemures (LE) or dretch (CE), and then progress up from there?

Psyren
2014-09-19, 04:02 PM
The CE afterlife doesn't suck if you're CE. It's going to a world where everything functions like you always thought it did... might really DOES make right, and you really ARE the most important person, and screw all those other ****ers who kept you down.

There's nothing wrong with a CE afterlife if you're CE. You're not there as punishment for being bad.

See, I don't buy that. It might be that way for some souls - the truly strong, who were badasses on a literally planar level prior to death. But the majority of beings bound for the lower planes simply think they're that powerful, and end up thoroughly disabused of such notions once they arrive on the shores.

FC1 for instance says:


Many religions believe that when evil people die, the gods punish them by consigning them to the Abyss or the Nine Hells or some other horrible plane populated by demons, devils, and other evil creatures. There, these evil souls undergo everlasting torment at the behest of dark powers. Some believers even claim that occasional souls "rise" to the ranks of demons or devils themselves, becoming slavish servants to evil.

Different tomes of knowledge disagree on the finer points of these claims. The Black Scrolls of Ahm put forth the position that individual souls seldom (if ever) become demons incarnate, while the Demonomicon of Iggwilv actually lists certain particularly evil individuals from history and outlines what sorts of demons they became after death. However, the Black Scrolls do allow for demonic pacts and bargains. Ahm asserts that a particularly evil-and powerful-individual can make a bargain with Demogorgon or Orcus, promising to serve that prince faithfully in life, in exchange for guaranteed rebirth as a powerful demon after death. He does clarify that these demonic reincarnations appear to be the exception rather than the rule. Still, no proof for these arguments exists one way or the other, and most demons enjoy inflicting doubt upon those who pursue this knowledge too closely.

The passage basically says that at best, only a tiny minority of mortals will ascend past dretch level, and those will be only the most exceptionally evil and ruthless souls out there. Then it finishes up by saying that even that slim hope might be a lie.

BoVD goes on to say that mortal souls are so common down there that they're used as currency. Applying basic logic - if all the evil folks in the abyss are having such a great time down there, who exactly is being eaten, and beaten, and bought/sold/baked into magic items? For some to be ruling the roost, there have to be many more downtrodden for them to lord it over and abuse.


Except of course that might makes right being perfectly correct also comes with the fact that the place is run largely by terrifying godlike demons who want to have fun torturing you for all eternity and therefore it's their might meaning that it's their right. Being chaotic evil is a double-edged sword. It's perfectly nice when you're the one on top on top, but let's face it... you're almost certainly not the one on top.

Precisely.

Chambers
2014-09-19, 09:40 PM
Eilistraee isn't just the other drow goddess. She's a goddess of Swordwork, Dancing, Beauty, etc who is also drow. Forget all the stuff about her portfolio and what she represents and focus on that part for a while. How does a drow get someone to do something that they don't want to do?

They trick them. They hide their true motives, do favors for the mark and start out by building the relationship with small requests for aid, and giving aid in return. They gather blackmail evidence to be used if the mark becomes unwilling, they have enforcers on hand to convince the mark to fall in line and - to cut things short - they do everything in their power to make the mark do their bidding. That's how the drow conduct business, and the followers of Eilistraee are drow.

They know all these tricks and know how drow society works. In some ways they are manipulators on par with the Matron Mothers in terms of duplicity. While a Matron Mother works against other Houses and elements in drow society the worshipers of Eilistraee have to deceive the whole of that society in addition to Lloth. More so than any other drow, the life and soul of a secret worshiper of Eilistraee depends on her ability to deceive and work drow culture to her favor.

To convert a target from Lloth to Eilistraee a spy would use the same tactics, albeit refraining from the truly evil acts. They deceive and manipulate their mark, getting them to trust the spy (or at least consider the spy a useful agent for the marks own ends) and work to put the mark in a position where they depend on the spy. The goal is to put the mark in a situation where their survival depends on the spy and when the mark has no where else to turn, after her House, society, and Goddess have forsaken her, that's when the spy extracts the mark. Break their connections to their previous drow world and take them to a safe place, a gathering of worshipers.

That's when the conversion process begins, unfolding as it will or won't. Rehab, not brainwashing. Everything prior to that is just setting the stage.

I don't know if that's how it happens according to Canon, but that's how I'd run it.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-20, 09:55 AM
See, I don't buy that. It might be that way for some souls - the truly strong, who were badasses on a literally planar level prior to death. But the majority of beings bound for the lower planes simply think they're that powerful, and end up thoroughly disabused of such notions once they arrive on the shores.


Doesn't mean life doesn't suck for them... but they're not sent there as punishment. No one is punishing them because they're CE.

TheTeaMustFlow
2014-09-20, 09:57 AM
Given that the Drow are a theocracy, converting them away from Lolth means destroying that theocracy - to convert the Drow, you will have to first conquer them.

Get the backing of the Dwarves (or any similar significant Good (preferably LG so they don't go back on their promises) underground power), take over a few cities on the outskirts, and begin conversion by example/sword, as appropriate. Hopefully, your allies + the Lolthists being too focused on amassing personal power and backstabbing each other (rather than the advancement of their faith as a whole) will ward off any organised counteroffensive while you consolidate your position and spread the faith. And worst case scenario, if the Lolthists do make an organised counterattack, you've got a bunch of axe-wielding midgets with a serious grudge to even the scales.

Once your position is consolidated, you have two priorities. Priority one is dividing and weakening the followers of Lolth. Luckily, given the ridiculous amount of backstabbery going on there, they're quite good at doing your job for you - all they need is a little pushing. Send in spies, assassins, and agent provocateurs to weaken the nobility and clergy and above all, keep them focused on each other. If they're watching each other, they're not watching you - and they're not watching the lower classes, who you're quietly converting to the true faith.

Of course, this won't work forever. The Lolthists may be very, very screwed up, but they're not stupid, and eventually they will recognise the threat and form a united front. Which brings us to priority two: diplomacy. The big advantage you have, that the Lolthists will not be able to counter is that everyone doesn't hate you. Establishing diplomatic and trade links with the other nonevil underground powers and with the surface world will bring you wealth, power, and allies. The Drow have a number of unique things that could be very profitable trade goods - for example, Drow metallurgy is exceptional, and often makes use of materials rare elsewhere - and, because you're not violently xenophobic, you have an effective monopoly on these goods; even if the other Drow do trade, you're much preferable as trading partners. Because they deal with you, and not with the Lolthists, much of the rest of the world will begin to see you as the `legitimate` Drow, rather than a strange offshoot. As the trade increases quality of life in your cities, the true faith of Eilistraee will become more entrenched among the populace. And most important of all, you can find allies. Goodly nations will see the righteousness of your cause , neutral ones can be convinced of the benefits of having you, rather than the Lolthists, as their neighbours - or they can simply be bought -, and though evil powers are unlikely to assist you, they're equally unlikely to assist your enemies. Eventually, it won't be Eilistraee against Lolth - it'll be Lolth against the World.

The only problem is the first step.

Lord Torath
2014-09-21, 10:52 AM
Doesn't mean life doesn't suck for them... but they're not sent there as punishment. No one is punishing them because they're CE.last panel, yellow balloon (Nero?) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) That sure sounds like a punishment to me!

Caveat: This, of course, is OotS, and not official D&D cosmology/afterlife. Please talk to your DM to see if OotS Cosmology is right for you. Side effects may include but are not limited to... :smallbiggrin:

toapat
2014-09-21, 05:34 PM
I fail to see the problem :smalltongue:



How so? I don't see anything like that in her dogma.

Having a holy symbol only works when it looks like you are championing a god, not when you are championing any of the house matriarchs.


Eilistraee's church is divided into "the true faith" and "converts" (as seen from Silverhaired Knight prc in dragon). the actual faith doesnt allow for murder of drow, regardless of alignment. This is a problem because the most efficient way to cause conversion is to just exterminate the upper class of drow societies. Except this gets you killed faster by eilistraee then by lolth

Psyren
2014-09-22, 12:04 AM
Doesn't mean life doesn't suck for them... but they're not sent there as punishment. No one is punishing them because they're CE.

It could be the double-negative throwing me off here, but weren't you in a previous post in this thread saying that the afterlife doesn't suck for them? I am arguing that, based on what is in the D&D sourcebooks as well as in OotS (the only game places I know of with a CE afterlife) that it does suck, save for a privileged few.


Having a holy symbol only works when it looks like you are championing a god, not when you are championing any of the house matriarchs.


Eilistraee's church is divided into "the true faith" and "converts" (as seen from Silverhaired Knight prc in dragon). the actual faith doesnt allow for murder of drow, regardless of alignment. This is a problem because the most efficient way to cause conversion is to just exterminate the upper class of drow societies. Except this gets you killed faster by eilistraee then by lolth

So just don't convert them that way. Nothing about her dogma says you have to do it quickly. Indeed, elves have pretty long lives and so would be more likely to take the gradual approach.

And even if removing the upper class was the only way to perform a conversion on any meaningful scale, removal doesn't require murder. Orchestrate a large-scale kidnapping and stick them in some of Evermeet's most lavish apartments while your agents complete the subversion of Drow society.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-22, 10:18 AM
It could be the double-negative throwing me off here, but weren't you in a previous post in this thread saying that the afterlife doesn't suck for them? I am arguing that, based on what is in the D&D sourcebooks as well as in OotS (the only game places I know of with a CE afterlife) that it does suck, save for a privileged few.

No, I'm saying the afterlife will still very likely suck for most CE mortals who find themselves dead and in the Abyss. They are pitiful worms, and the skies are full of vrock.* But just because their afterlives suck does not mean they are being punished. They are living out the consequences of their alignment... they're in a situation where might makes right and, no matter how big a bully they were on the Prime, chances are they're nothing compared to the demons which surround them. But they're not sent there because they're evil and evil is wrong... if they have the strength, they can reign in Hell... they're sent there because they're evil and evil is a part of the universe.

Punishment implies that there is a power in the Planes that rewards good; that has ordered the planes such that Good is encouraged and Evil is discouraged. That's not the Planes; the Planes don't care. If there is a deity behind the planar order, it's an invisible one that shows no particular favoritism to good, evil, law or chaos.


*I am proud of that metaphor. Post your adulations publicly.

Metahuman1
2014-09-22, 10:38 AM
So just don't convert them that way. Nothing about her dogma says you have to do it quickly. Indeed, elves have pretty long lives and so would be more likely to take the gradual approach.

And even if removing the upper class was the only way to perform a conversion on any meaningful scale, removal doesn't require murder. Orchestrate a large-scale kidnapping and stick them in some of Evermeet's most lavish apartments while your agents complete the subversion of Drow society.

Probably.


... That is an awesome plan and I would totally like to play an all drow all Eilistraee worshipper game using it.

Psyren
2014-09-22, 12:07 PM
No, I'm saying the afterlife will still very likely suck for most CE mortals who find themselves dead and in the Abyss. They are pitiful worms, and the skies are full of vrock.* But just because their afterlives suck does not mean they are being punished. They are living out the consequences of their alignment... they're in a situation where might makes right and, no matter how big a bully they were on the Prime, chances are they're nothing compared to the demons which surround them. But they're not sent there because they're evil and evil is wrong... if they have the strength, they can reign in Hell... they're sent there because they're evil and evil is a part of the universe.

Punishment implies that there is a power in the Planes that rewards good; that has ordered the planes such that Good is encouraged and Evil is discouraged. That's not the Planes; the Planes don't care. If there is a deity behind the planar order, it's an invisible one that shows no particular favoritism to good, evil, law or chaos.


*I am proud of that metaphor. Post your adulations publicly.

I think we're offering off different definitions of "punishment." You're correct that everyone who arrives in the Abyss can potentially rise to the top - but the chances of that actually happening are basically non-existent for 99.99% of Abyssal petitioners. Now, that state of affairs may be merely incidental or a side effect of the existence of planar evil, without any controlling intelligence (or coalition of intelligences, i.e. the gods) enforcing it, or consciously sending CE souls there, but the fact remains that it exists.

So for that downtrodden majority - who have essentially no hope of getting past dretch status, assuming they aren't simply devoured or eradicated for lulz - they end up spending so many aeons in that form that they lose all sense of self. It may not be an intentional "punishment" per se, but losing one's identity is likely for an evil indidvidual one of the worst fates they could imagine, so I'm not seeing a functional difference in the end.


Probably.


... That is an awesome plan and I would totally like to play an all drow all Eilistraee worshipper game using it.

One major problem - pretty much anything affecting Drow on that scale would set off every portfolio sense alarm Lolth has. Granted, Eilistraee is also a Major deity so maybe she could block it somehow.

...Actually, that would add a lot of nail-biting tension to the plan since neither side could depend on their goddess to help out. Of course, that just leaves Vhaeraun perfectly positioned to attempt a coup of his own; you might accomplish little more than putting drow males in charge for once.

Metahuman1
2014-09-22, 12:37 PM
One major problem - pretty much anything affecting Drow on that scale would set off every portfolio sense alarm Lolth has. Granted, Eilistraee is also a Major deity so maybe she could block it somehow.

...Actually, that would add a lot of nail-biting tension to the plan since neither side could depend on their goddess to help out. Of course, that just leaves Vhaeraun perfectly positioned to attempt a coup of his own; you might accomplish little more than putting drow males in charge for once.

That depends on how much you can get none Drow Gods to play into it. There are some Deity's (Sune and Mordin springs immediately to mind.) who might well be up for helping to block the deity's other then Lolth for there own reasons. (More adventure and spread of arts and more beautiful creatures around and less general ugliness in society? Yes please. Not having to constantly fight with the drow and deal with there Slavery and other such BS? Mordin's followers will gladly beseech him to get two.) Get the none Lolth sects just as blind as Eilistraee's is making Lolth so that they won't come into play until after you've already locked in your check mate.

Psyren
2014-09-22, 01:17 PM
That depends on how much you can get none Drow Gods to play into it. There are some Deity's (Sune and Mordin springs immediately to mind.) who might well be up for helping to block the deity's other then Lolth for there own reasons. (More adventure and spread of arts and more beautiful creatures around and less general ugliness in society? Yes please. Not having to constantly fight with the drow and deal with there Slavery and other such BS? Mordin's followers will gladly beseech him to get two.) Get the none Lolth sects just as blind as Eilistraee's is making Lolth so that they won't come into play until after you've already locked in your check mate.

Yeah, but this is FR we're talking about. If the likes of Moradin and Sune start interfering with the fate of the Drow, Ao might start to get ticked off.

Corellon might be able to slide in tangentially however since he was already involved with the whole mess from the beginning.

Metahuman1
2014-09-22, 01:37 PM
Yeah, but this is FR we're talking about. If the likes of Moradin and Sune start interfering with the fate of the Drow, Ao might start to get ticked off.

Corellon might be able to slide in tangentially however since he was already involved with the whole mess from the beginning.

On the flip side, Mordin can fire back that he's not butting into the Drows affairs cause Drow. He's just lending one little slightly indirect hand to his own followers.


And Sune can argue that she's got domain over things that are universal to all mortal and a number of immortal people's, and thus can, does and should go were she deems fit.

You don't need to justify every Deity getting in on the action. Just enough that none of the bad one's or neutral one's can screw this up and thus allow Eilistraee's followers to get the upper hand or fail on there own merits.

toapat
2014-09-22, 05:53 PM
One major problem - pretty much anything affecting Drow on that scale would set off every portfolio sense alarm Lolth has. Granted, Eilistraee is also a Major deity so maybe she could block it somehow.

...Actually, that would add a lot of nail-biting tension to the plan since neither side could depend on their goddess to help out. Of course, that just leaves Vhaeraun perfectly positioned to attempt a coup of his own; you might accomplish little more than putting drow males in charge for once.

actually, theres a colossal problem with that plan. Eilistraee doesnt have the trickery domain, where as Lolth does. This means that disapoofing (preferably into a Demiplane genesised into being where the flora and fauna use chlorine instead of oxygen) the Drow Upper+Middle classes as a servant of eilistraee causes every portfolio alarm of Lolth where Eilistraee only knows something happened because a non-insignificant portion of drow who she has simultaineously condemned and put conversion bids on going on a mass migration.

Psyren
2014-09-22, 07:14 PM
actually, theres a colossal problem with that plan. Eilistraee doesnt have the trickery domain, where as Lolth does. This means that disapoofing (preferably into a Demiplane genesised into being where the flora and fauna use chlorine instead of oxygen) the Drow Upper+Middle classes as a servant of eilistraee causes every portfolio alarm of Lolth where Eilistraee only knows something happened because a non-insignificant portion of drow who she has simultaineously condemned and put conversion bids on going on a mass migration.

Who said anything about trickery? :smallsmile:

You can be perfectly upfront and honest about the entire thing. Walk right up to each Matron in her private chambers and say "hi, we're kidnapping you to remove your influence of Drow Society" and proceed to pop them into rucksacks for transfer to Evermeet.

As far as changing Drow society, you don't need trickery there either - straightforward Diplomancy will do the trick. She even has the Charm domain so her most powerful agents can easily get surrounding Drow to friendly/fanatic, and continue converting their friends while the existing converts play defense.

Granted this is Pun-Pun level shenanigans, which explains why it hasn't been done, but we are talking hypotheticals.

Irennan
2014-12-29, 12:01 PM
I agree with what Chambers said, but with a bit of a difference. Drow have been brainwashed by centuries of dogma (and backstabbing), they are told since their birth that they must kill or be killed, dominate or be dominated, and everything around them (their nonsensical society) shows that it is actually true, leading them down the ''path of evil'' (because they are forced to ''do evil'' if they want to survive, and because any attempt to dissent is punished with tourture and death).

Furthermore, they are brainwashed into believing that the individual has no intirinsical value, that ''status'' and ''power'' are the only things that matter and can make a person matter, and that they can only be acquired through the favor of the goddess. This means that a lot of lolthite drow are ready to fanatically pursue anything the Spider Queen deems appropriate, and she easily makes tools for her mad goals out of them. For example most drow have their life chosen without having a say on it, because Lolth's dogma says that they have to become X, something that is nicely shown in the first book of the ''Starlights and Shadows'' trilogy.

Going away from all of this would however make the drow look at reality through a different perspective and lead them to make different choices. The trick is showing to the drow the existence of something different, to make them look through a different perspective -like Eilistraee tries to do-: injecting new ideas, and showing and proving with results that they can actually lead to a better life. They would spread, some people would recognize them for their value, embrace and support them, band together and work/fight to achieve something for them or their race -- it's the need to improve one's own condition that all beings have (and it's why lolthite society tries to shut down anything that could do that).

Eilistraee wants exactly this, the Dark Dancer knows that she needs to make the drow understand that there's an alternative, that the life she wishes for them is possible. She and her followers accomplish that by caring about them, giving them the kindness, acceptance --even love-- that they were denied, by 'being at their side' and helping them when they need it and showing them the joy of life and happiness that was taken from them. Basically they do so to prove to the drow that they do have a choice and that it would lead to a way better and happier life. In fact, as per Ed Greenwood's -her creator- words, she takes ther role of a mother-goddess for all drow, who fights to provide a concrete alternative to ''her children'', to help them in making this choice, to grow and flourish as a people in a world hostile to them.

How would this translate going down to Eilistraee's followers actions? Well, they have indeed to show that the new life that they bring is indeed a true, better alternative, and this can be done only by showing that they have the tools and capacities to protect/feed and take care of the converts, i.e. to establish a relationship of dependance (initially) that should become of trust with time passing. They would also provide to the drow something that they lack: freedom of choice, expression, fulfillment (something that Eilistraee stands for), because lolthite dark elves have very limited choice in their lives, they want to dominate other but most of them are not even masters/mistresses of themselves.

In my ongoing capaign, one of the plots has both Eilistraee, Vhaeraun (who in my world are rather neutral towards each other, but still feel a sort of affection for each other) and their followers joining forces as a desperate measure during the Silence of Lolth and taking the initiative to change and open the mind of their people.

This would be the culmination of a series of actions on the Dark Dancer's (and Masked Lord's) followers side that actually started way before the silence of Lolth (actually, something that has been going on for centuries) and that has slowly brought the hope for a new life to many dark elves, leading them away from those hellholes and towards a better existence, on top of allowing the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun's ideas to silently spread, especially among the ''free'' drow, (i.e. the abused low class). With time, infrastructures**, food/water reserves, refuges both on the surface and underground have been built, both for frequent use and in order to prepare what would have been the conclusion of all of this, the final strike, leading the drow to rebel and completely break free from Lolth and her orderm when the right time would have come (a time that came far earlier than they expected due to Lolth's silence).

(**The most relevant among those is a network of portal that extends through the Underdark, connecting areas near various drow cities and settlements with the surface, with the Promenade being its ''hub''. The net is made up of ''Song Portals'' -magic took by Illefarn- crafted with the aid of Eilistraee, which would show up and activate only through a specific melody and emotions in order to avoid hostile intrusion. Furthermore tunnels would be covered with directions that point to the position of the portals, and such directions would be revealed only through Eilistraee's moonfire. Sometimes the goddess gifts lost drow trying to escape aggressors (or simply towards a better life) with temporary manifestations of this magic, in order to lead them towards the nearest portal and to safety -likely near one of her settlements where her people would aid the newcomer-).

Sword Dancers and Nightshadows (agents of the two gods) would then infiltrate in the various drow cities, sparking the seed of rebellion by more openly showing to the drow the miserable, inhuman, choice and joy-less condition that Lolth and her reign forced them into. The stagnation and all the chance progress/growth that was lost due to tradition and dogma, their lives being deprived of any value and would be made evident to them, especially now that Lolth has gone away, giving basically (forgive this expression) 0 ****s about them (leaving them in a very vulnerable state), while on the other side there is someone who actually cares.

Ofc, each side would act in their own way. Vhaeraun's followers would go the route of terror tactics, with attacks and assassinations carried out even against high ranking members of houses/temple, to show that Lolth's power is far from what she wants drow to believe.

Eilistraeens would still be fighting with their newfound ''allies'', but they would mainly focus on providing the population with needed cures, food, water in time of crisis, they would make themselves protectors of their people and would more openly offer the chance of getting away from this (and an actual, concrete alternative to embrace, since they have refuges to welcome them, portals to bring them away with safety and a goddess who cares about -and even loves- them). Followers of the Dark Dancer would also bring to the drow the joyful, luminous aspects of life that they have been unjustly denied, they would show them what it means to be a people, united, fighting for a common goal, to forge their own path and place in the world (for example, in my campaign they lent their aid and swords to the drow city of Maerimydra when fire giants and other monster attacked and took it, helping the refugees with healing and food and assisting them to retake the city, while restoring the Twisted Tower as a temple of the Dark Maiden once again. They proved that a united people can achieve much much more than a bunch of paranoid, power-hungry, brainwahsed backstabbers, that the life they wish for is actually possible).

Meanwhile, on the surface Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and their drow would be preparing the ground for an eventual exodus from the Underdark. In particular their efforts would be pointed towards restoring Miyeritar (the ancient dark elven kingdom devout to the Dark Maiden and to Sehanine, that was swept away in one of the ancient elven wars, now a barren land due to magic cast there by the sun elves) and using it as a safe haven for all drow. Of course, especially with elves trying to conquer Myth Drannor back, plopping a drow nation like this would lead to troubles (in fact, the situation is destined to become very tense).

Granted, in my campaign things are easier than usual due to Lolth's silence, but even with her presence this could work. Providing things like food (naturally scarce in the Underdark) and practical aid and support, an escape, a way out and protection to the drow who are in danger or persecuted, to slaves (and the low class, not to mention the ones among the dark elves who are secretly tired of all the backstabbing and wish for a different life. They would be diofficult to find, but with careful 'scanning', the aid of Eilistraee and other means this could be done) would slowly create that relationship of dependence first (and reliance after) I was talking about. Most drow don't really even have a choice when it comes to this, as their life under Lolth's domain truly sucks (and can end from a moment to another on a whim of a noble who decides to go ''hunting'' and killing commoners for sport - and this happens on a quite commom basis, IIRC, it's something called ''the hunt'' among drow nobles).

Naturally when the new ideas start to take ground, lolthites would organize a reprisal, but then drow can fight and they would have the full support of Eilistraee's preistesses and Sword Dancers and so on.

LibraryOgre
2014-12-29, 12:54 PM
The Mod Wonder; Closed for age.