Updating Egg of Reason from AD&D to 3.5 [PEACH]

[Debihuman]

This is an old item that seems to have been forgotten. I can see why. I'm not a fan of save or die, even if it's to gain +1 to Intelligence or Wisdom. The fact that the original item could be consumed multiple times (with that pesky save vs poison or DIE) rather limited how much PCs were willing to tempt fate. Not often I can assure you. I like the idea of eating an egg to gain +1 to Intelligence, but there are better items that can raise your Intelligence that may cost a tad more but with no risk at all. Food as treasure is tough because often the bonuses are temporary, especially with magical food. I wanted this to be a little more appealing. Feedback would be really helpful. DMs -- would you ever use this?

Egg of Reason
Updated from the AD&D item of the same name.
An egg of reason is always coated with unguent of timelessness. Although very old and quite vile smelling, each egg has the possibility of increasing the eater's Intelligence or Wisdom. However, an individual who consumes an egg of reason must first succeed on a Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) or take 2 points of ability drain to the same ability the egg would have conferred. This drain cannot be removed by magic or supernatural means until 48 hours have passed. Creatures that are immune to ability drain cannot benefit from eating an egg of reason. The eater still gains the +1 resistance bonus to the save from the unguent of timelessness that coats the egg. If the save is successful, the eater gains a +1 Circumstance bonus to either Intelligence or Wisdom.

Once the eater has gained a benefit from an egg of reason, he cannot benefit again from eating additional eggs of reason, though he must still make the saving throw to avoid taking the 2 points of ability drain (see above). If the unguent of timelessness is removed from the egg before it is consumed, the egg becomes safe to eat but loses its ability-enhancing property.

Faint Transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item fox's cunning or owl's wisdom; Price 6,150 gp. Weight --

Thanks,
Debby

[Final Edit] Increased cost in keeping with other magic items.

[dragonjek]

While removing the save-or-die part is good, reducing it to this is rather extreme. It changes from risking something for a permanent benefit, or being mildly inconvenienced for a short amount of time for a permanent benefit. Especially considering that, already being sickened, there's nothing stopping you from continuing to eat eggs until you get the bonus. It doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

The cost is far, far too low. 2,150 gp is the type of price for very minor magic items. Providing a permanent bonus to an ability score is--on a low estimate--worth ten times that.

Also, you didn't state whether you choose which ability benefits or if it is determined randomly.

[Debihuman]

While removing the save-or-die part is good, reducing it to this is rather extreme. It changes from risking something for a permanent benefit, or being mildly inconvenienced for a short amount of time for a permanent benefit. Especially considering that, already being sickened, there's nothing stopping you from continuing to eat eggs until you get the bonus. It doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist.

The cost is far, far too low. 2,150 gp is the type of price for very minor magic items. Providing a permanent bonus to an ability score is--on a low estimate--worth ten times that.

Also, you didn't state whether you choose which ability benefits or if it is determined randomly.


1. Ability depends on which spell is used in its creation. If you use fox's cunning, it's Intelligence. If it's owl's wisdom, it's Wisdom.

2. Once you have gained a bonus from eating an egg, you don't gain any more bonuses from eating more eggs. It already states that. To quote myself: "Once the benefit has been gained, the eater cannot benefit again from eating additional eggs of reason." I suppose you could eat one of each type of egg to gain the benefit. However, if you fail the save, you don't benefit from it. That's the investment hazard.

3. Cost is 2,000 gp for +1 to an ability. See Item creation and as an example, Gloves of Dexterity. Granted this is a permanent bonus, but I make the eater jump through hoops to get it, which is only fair and I didn't want it to be a save or die situation for a +1 Circumstance bonus. Plus unlike gloves of dexterity or an ioun stone, you can't upgrade or loan it or sell it. The original egg of reason cost 1,250 gp. Since it's not a slotted item, perhaps the cost should be raised 50%.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Are you sure that Circumstance is the right sort of bonus for this?

Also, I see people renting items of +6 Con before using this item, or, for those with ranks in concentration, buying a martial script of Moment of Perfect Mind to replace (before rolling) a will save with a concentration check and natural 1's aren't an automatic failure.

[Debihuman]

Are you sure that Circumstance is the right sort of bonus for this?

Also, I see people renting items of +6 Con before using this item, or, for those with ranks in concentration, buying a martial script of Moment of Perfect Mind to replace (before rolling) a will save with a concentration check and natural 1's aren't an automatic failure.

I had debated which bonus would be reflect the original item. I suppose I could have made it an Inherent bonus instead but I actually think it should stack since the original concept allowed the eggs to be eaten multiple time (though you had to eat 10 after you had a 18 in an ability -- but that was weird AD&D where 18 increased by percentages).

If you allow people to rent items for +6 Con, then why wouldn't they just rent an item for +6 Int or +6 Wis? That just makes the egg seem superfluous. I suppose the risk could be taking 2 points of ability drain to Int or Wis instead of being sickened if the save is failed. it's better than risk of dying but still sufficiently harsh.

I edited my original post to make the save vs. ability damage and thus made the egg unable to benefit those who are immune to ability drain. Lemme know what you think of the changes. Too harsh? Not harsh enough? Better balanced?

Debby

[DracoDei]

I had debated which bonus would be reflect the original item. I suppose I could have made it an Inherent bonus instead but I actually think it should stack since the original concept allowed the eggs to be eaten multiple time (though you had to eat 10 after you had a 18 in an ability -- but that was weird AD&D where 18 increased by percentages).
Yeah, and that is going to be a really big deal since you are working with the abilities scores that some S.A.D. classes have as their Single Ability that they Depend on.

You are moving in the right direction, but what you need to understand is that:
1.) The penalty is something that happens during character creation a lot of the time. This renders the 48 hours part mechanically irrelevant. Of course, you should definitely keep it, if only because managing to combine the worst aspects of Burn and Drain like that is something that should be preserved for historical purposes.
2.) 5 or 6 failed attempts is what the average character NOT focused on that attribute can take and still remain standing, and the weakest spell that can counter it (after the 48 hours have passed) is Restoration. Now granted, this is a 4th level spell, so it isn't precisely cheap, but the point is that you can buy a dozen eggs if you like, and then chow down until you make the save and get it restored with a single spell. Not that the eggs aren't more expensive than the casting, so you might be OK getting the drain healed before heading back to the egg merchant.


If you allow people to rent items for +6 Con, then why wouldn't they just rent an item for +6 Int or +6 Wis?
Because if you are renting it, you only have it for a short period of time and the owner might require a security deposit equal to its market price before he you would be allowed to take it with you when you go adventuring?

Passing a few Fort saves OTOH happens can happen right there in front of the owner of the item if they like, and takes 3 minutes. You can just hand him all your OTHER magical gear as a security deposit, then down as many eggs as it takes, remove the rental item, and take all your stuff back (while your team mates make sure you don't get cheated due to being a cleric with a 6 wisdom if that is applicable) minus 100 gp rental.

The more major issue is actually that, if i am understanding it correctly it can be dispelled as a 5th level effect.


That just makes the egg seem superfluous. I suppose the risk could be taking 2 points of ability drain to Int or Wis instead of being sickened if the save is failed. it's better than risk of dying but still sufficiently harsh.

I edited my original post to make the save vs. ability damage and thus made the egg unable to benefit those who are immune to ability drain.

Lemme know what you think of the changes. Too harsh? Not harsh enough? Better balanced?

Debby
It is better, but I think you still might want to seriously consider increasing the price a lot. If you calculated what the incremental cost of a Tome +5 and a hypothetical Tome +6 and then divided by 4 (because: Fort save and also DISPELABLE) that would be a good starting place...

[Debihuman]

The more major issue is actually that, if i am understanding it correctly it can be dispelled as a 5th level effect.

It is better, but I think you still might want to seriously consider increasing the price a lot. If you calculated what the incremental cost of a Tome +5 and a hypothetical Tome +6 and then divided by 4 (because: Fort save and also DISPELABLE) that would be a good starting place...

I think the you can dispel the effect on the egg, but not the bonus once the egg has been eaten.

Well, a Tome +1 is 27,000 gp, but it doesn't have the drawbacks of the Fort save and the possibility of taking ability drain. Right now the cost of 8 eggs is slightly less than a Tome +1. Clearly that's too cheap.I'll raise the cost to 6,150. That puts the cost of a single egg closer to 1/4 the cost of the Tome +1.

Debby

[DracoDei]

If it can't be dispelled you need to state that very clearly, otherwise it is going to start arguments between players and GMs I think.

Also, in that case it should be closer to 1/2 rather than 1/4. Shoot, just the fact that it stacks to me means that maybe it shouldn't be divided at all, for reasons similar to why a +1 to natural armor item costs more than a +1 enhancement to armor/shield AC. They do about the same thing it is just that since they stack, one of them costs more so that... well I can't find the words, but you probably know what I'm talking about.

[Debihuman]

Once you have eaten the egg, you no longer have a magic item. Until then, the egg's magic could be suppressed normally


You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Gloves of Dexterity +2 cost 4,000 gp. The egg gives a +1 bonus to Intelligence and costs half again as much (plus the 150 gp for the unguent). I think this is reasonably priced.Otherwise you'd create a magical book that worked like Manual of Gainful Exercise and it would be priced based on a wish spell.

BTW, if you eat a magic item, you no longer have a magic item. Eating it destroys it like any other food. Can you dispel the hit points gained from drinking holy water? Unless your players are rules lawyers, this is a non-issue. If they are rules lawyers, commonsense dictates that magical food no longer exists as an "item" once it's been ingested. Rule 0.

Debby