Picking 3rd hero in 3 man party. 3.5 Help?

[Warrnan]

I'm starting a new campaign with two friends. Thanks in advance for your counsel. ToB isn't very popular in our group otherwise any wizards published 3.5 content is acceptable.

One hero is brand spanking new and is playing a greatsword strength Orc ranger/barbarian with pounce, Easy mode melee for the new guy plus trapfinding.

Our second hero is a LG battle cleric of Pelor working toward ordained champ. She is a veteran player.

As dm I'll be running a 3rd hero to make the party larger. Votes on what to use in such a small party? What are you ideas folks???

[eggynack]

Well, I generally go by the principle that a DMPC should take on a supporting role, and the party seems to need an arcanist. Thus, I'd go with a bard. You have a lot of melee to support, and enough spells to fill in at least a few gaps. You could go with a party oriented wizard instead, but not overshadowing folks is tricky. A warweaver isn't the worst idea though.

[Warrnan]

Bard is a very awesome idea. If I hadn't played it extensively for 2 years in my last long campaign, I would be all over it.

Wizard seems the best choice a far. Toying with what kind of wizard, Gish? Unseen seer? Being such a small party makes me want a beefy guy. It seems we need a ranged attacked as well as an arcanist.

Any other ideas?

[prufock]

You should approach this not just mechanically, but thematically as well. What are the characters' personalities? The third party should be either a little bit of a foil to them (if the two are similar) or an intermediate (if the two are opposite), while supporting them in either case.

From the little information I see, you have two very combat-focused characters, so I'd say similar in style. I could see a female bard, hesitant in combat, but nimble and hard to hit, focused on stealth and buffing. Perhaps if the barbarian is an atheist and the cleric is pious, or if the barbarian is impulsive and quick to jump to combat while the cleric is more of a reserved planner, she's an intermediate for any arguments that start on those topics. Alternatively, if they're both "run in and smash face, ask questions later" types, she can let out an exasperated sigh and follow them, but more carefully.

EDIT: If you're off bards, a marshal can make a good buffing class, and you can multiclass with dragon shaman for more auras, taking Double Draconic Aura and more Draconic Auras for feats. This gives you a very passive type that can boost its AC pretty high, and still fill the thematic role I listed above.

Wizard works as well, since wizards work for nearly everything. Bookish type that's nervous about getting stabbed, but there to help out regardless. Transmutation is your best friend here, I guess. Maybe Master Specialist if you like.

[Khedrac]

Important question - are you the DM running a DM PC or is it 3 players + DM?

If you are the DM I second playing a support character. Bard would be ideal, but Dragon Shaman could be useful, or perhaps Marshal (personally I find their "minor" auras too powerful if the charisma is half-way decent, and that's as a player).

As a 3rd player the possibilities are much wider, but you don't want to overshadow the barbarian ranger which melee mastery would do.
One possibility is Beguiler - covers traps and stealth stuff, and it has quite a decent range of casting - just cannot blast. Also provides Haste for your melee friends.
Playing a Duskblade as a ray (ranged) specialist could work - and arcane channeling would make anything that closed with you wish they hadn't bothered, but I don't see them as 3rd of 3.
Perhaps a druid?

Edit - spotted you did state you are DM. It's not just stepping on the PC's toes, it's also a problem if the DMPC's turns take too long to process. The beauty of a bard is a lot of the time they can just take no action while maintaining the music. You really need a character that boosts them and then has little to do.
One who hangs back but can step in if needed does not work either - they know you can save them and it always feels as if why should they bother?

[Divide by Zero]

Bard is a very awesome idea. If I hadn't played it extensively for 2 years in my last long campaign, I would be all over it.

Wizard seems the best choice a far. Toying with what kind of wizard, Gish? Unseen seer? Being such a small party makes me want a beefy guy. It seems we need a ranged attacked as well as an arcanist.

Any other ideas?

Keep in mind that the party already has two beefy guys, and the worst thing a DMPC can do is step on the players' toes. I'd go with a more pure support wizard, focusing on buffs and battlefield control (which should also reduce the need for ranged attacks, but you might want to keep some blasting ability in reserve just in case). Make the other PCs' job easier, don't do it for them.

[Mr Adventurer]

The answer is Factotum. Build to party need.

[Telonius]

Bard is a great possibility. Artificer would be another. They provide the muscle, you provide the equipment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As dm I'll be running a 3rd hero to make the party larger. Votes on what to use in such a small party? What are you ideas folks???

It's generally a bad idea for the DM to run a PC. The best way to do it is to make sure the players are always the ones to solve a problem, unless it's something that they can't solve. Also give him the type of personality that doesn't involve a lot of role playing or talking, or have them just make matter-of-fact statements, similar to Spock or Data from their respective Star Treks.

I'm going to recommend a Grey Elf Wizard, with the Elf Generalist 1 substitution level in RotW. Use this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to give him Point-Blank Shot instead of Scribe Scroll, along with Precise Shot, which is useful for both bows and ranged spell attacks. If you want him to be able to deal consistent damage, consider a reserve feat such as Fiery Burst in CM.

[Warrnan]

I will be the third PC and dm. 3 people total.

Good idea dividebyzero. If I go wizard I would do the "behind the scenes" thing sort of like Gandalf. Only going HAM on baddies that approach me in melee. I'm sure my Orcish and Priestess comrades will appreciate enlarge person at level one.

Great ideas everyone. I will choose a flavorful non human race. Try to balance the haughty know it all priestess and the brooding Orc hunter. Thinking halfling or elf with rays or bows but I'll make sure the pcs do most of the damage perhaps disabling them with stuff like ray of enfeeblement.

Also both pcs have no knowledges so I will probably do lots of that. Lol.

[Haluesen]

Pretty much just backing what other here have said, a decent support class like bard or factotum would work well as a third man to this group. Wizard if you know how to not overshadow the others. Even archivist from Heroes of Horror could work if you don't go crazy with the spell lists, the guy with all the knowledge sort of thing. But more than that, don't just make the person someone to fill a slot. DM characters are allowed to have personality too and really should so they aren't either generic or annoying. :smallsmile: Now as for actual options with said characters I would suggest advice from people more experienced than myself, but just playing vanilla core bard tends to work just fine.



It's generally a bad idea for the DM to run a PC. The best way to do it is to make sure the players are always the ones to solve a problem, unless it's something that they can't solve. Also give him the type of personality that doesn't involve a lot of role playing or talking, or have them just make matter-of-fact statements, similar to Spock or Data from their respective Star Treks.

I kinda just had to respond to this, even though you said generally. I always take time to defend the DMPC concept. Yes it can be done wrong. Yes they can be Sues or spotlight stealers or at least just generic. But this is not always so. For 2 of my friends, running their first game and we needed a 3 character to fill slots but couldn't find a 3rd players, so I ran a bard to basically just use heals and flank from time to time and to kinda be exposition for the setting. Said character ended up growing to a true team member and companion to them that they never resented. He could be the butt of a lot of jokes and it was always funny. His role expanded with the chameleon class but he didn't step on their toes, and really was often quite a bit weaker in action than they were despite the versatility. Even later in the game when I made a couple adventures to specifically focus on the goals/backstory of one character in the team, they encouraged making such an adventure for him. I know there are a lot of DMPC horror stories, but that experience encourages me to defend the idea whenever possible, because it can be done well. :smallbiggrin:

[Warrnan]

Well I know some dms can have personality problems and steal the spotlight but for what it's worth, I've always had a dm PC since 3.5 started. It has 75% worked out well.

Hey everyone thanks tons for the fun discussion and ideas!

Happy adventuring!

[Fouredged Sword]

I support playing a god wizard. Maybe even going as far as a warweaver. Basically, you want a character who won't steal the thunder of the rest of the group, and is easy to play from your end. A wizard is great on that end. Prep half his spells in advance (same every day) and have him just flat out ASK in character what buffs the party wants each morning. Sitting back and shooting arrows is easy on you round to round, and his major combat actions will be to cast battlefield control spells.

[Elkad]

I dislike any Cha-based class as a DMPC, as you shouldn't be taking the face role away from the players.

Really a DMPC should be either yet another beatstick, or some other duplicate of the party. But with such a small group, you kind of need a niche of your own.

Mod up a storytelling variant of a bard, swapping wis for cha everywhere. Instead of the likeable party face, he's the guy who always has yet another long boring story to tell. If you can stay awake till he's done, there might be a nugget of useful lore at the end.

[Warrnan]

I completely agree that any dmpc with lots of CHA skills can make a campaign seem deus ex machina, aka dm railroading. Not a fun thing.

Cool storyteller idea. Wis bard. Interesting!

[JusticeZero]

You're the DM. you Have your hands full playing the whole freaking world already. Don't do the DNPC thing. Peasant or something if absolutely necessary.

[Thiyr]

The answer is Factotum. Build to party need.

Factotum/chameleon. Hang back and when the party starts getting desperate, fill whatever role you may need to at any given time.

That said, while normally I abhor telling other people how to play their game, I'm curious. Is this character there purely to get another body on the players side? 'cause a two-man game's actually kind of interesting in its own way, if the players are up for it. Just a thought.

[Madhava]

You're the DM. you Have your hands full playing the whole freaking world already. Don't do the DNPC thing. Peasant or something if absolutely necessary.

Agree with this. A Barbarian with trapkiller & a Cleric have got a lot of potential, as a two-person team. And the players would get all the spotlight (which is what everyone wants).

But if you must, I'd say go with a Divine Mind (any faith with freedom mantle). The auras get good, but the character wouldn't be a charisma beacon, as a Bard would be. Plus it's a hardy enough class that the players shouldn't need to worry about guarding the extra person... but not so powerful as to overshadow your players. Astral constuct is pretty helpful, too.

A Factotum might steal the show just a little too much.

[Warrnan]

Ok. Using wizard, I will stock up on aoe buffs and make the PCs pwn mobs like rock stars. I will make sure to completely play "support" and stick to long duration buffs so I'm a walking "stats gimp". Auto attacking with a reserve feat, possibly healing with arcane disciple, and only ever whipping out the big guns to prevent TPKs because no sane DM likes TPKs.

This simple play style will allow me to focus on running the world. Thanks everyone for your good advice and help!! Happy adventuring!

[Divide by Zero]

healing with arcane disciple

Don't bother. Even if you're playing pure support, healing is a waste of a combat action 90% of the time, doubly so with Arcane Disciple's limited uses per day. For out-of-combat healing, just get the cleric some wands (better yet, have your wizard take some crafting feats and make them with the cleric's assistance).