Aerial Combat - does it work in 5e?

[Galen]

Fly
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a wing feather from any bird)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You touch a willing creature. The target gains a flying speed of 60 feet for the duration. When the spell ends, the target falls if it is still aloft, unless it can stop the fall.
At Higher Levels.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 3rd.

How does one do aerial combat in 5e using this spell? First, note bolded parts. One arrow, and you risk plummeting to your death. In fact, if you spend a 6th or 7th level slot to have the entire party fly, one arrow and everyone risks plummeting to their deaths. Ouch.
Second, until you get 6th level slots, forget giving your entire party flight. Since, again, the duration is concentration, you can't spend multiple 3rd level slots to have multiple allies fly. You have to be high enough level to cast a 6th level spell (for a 4-man party) or 7th level spell (5-man party), etc.
And then it can be ruined for everyone by a simple arrow. Am I the only one finding this highly unsatisfying?

[MadBear]

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I actually prefer that you don't start seeing flying adventurers until high level, and that it's a better mode of transportation then anything else.

Other then that, just be sure you have featherfall ready, and invest in your Con saves if you wanna be a flyer.

[Daishain]

Flight is one of many abilities that make it more difficult for a DM to keep the story on track. They seem to be making a lot of such abilities more difficult to access (such as wish's special abilities now having a 1/3 chance of burning you out to the point that you cannot use it again at all)

Personally, I love flying combat, and I hope to see quite a bit more of it in this edition. It adds an extra dimension to the tactics, and the visual of my Raptoran Warblade aerial divebombing one creature with a spear, and using the momentum to skid to a halt in the path of another is freaking awesome.

And yeah, it doesn't seem like there are good options for flight in combat situations. The spell is too easily dismissed, and the only other means of gaining flight I've seen was via the dragonblood sorcerer variant.

[LordVonDerp]

How does one do aerial combat in 5e using this spell? First, note bolded parts. One arrow, and you risk plummeting to your death. In fact, if you spend a 6th or 7th level slot to have the entire party fly, one arrow and everyone risks plummeting to their deaths. Ouch.
Second, until you get 6th level slots, forget giving your entire party flight. Since, again, the duration is concentration, you can't spend multiple 3rd level slots to have multiple allies fly. You have to be high enough level to cast a 6th level spell (for a 4-man party) or 7th level spell (5-man party), etc.
And then it can be ruined for everyone by a simple arrow. Am I the only one finding this highly unsatisfying?

Protip: flying mounts, also much more practical for society in general, minus the droppings of course.

[Galen]

Well, I really want to see aerial combat in my game, and risking the entire party killed by a single arrow would definitely discourage it. If I was to change Fly to "if the spell ends, you fall slowly for 1 minute, as if affected by the Feather Fall spell", would that be a reasonable house rule?

[DrLemniscate]

How does one do aerial combat in 5e using this spell? First, note bolded parts. One arrow, and you risk plummeting to your death. In fact, if you spend a 6th or 7th level slot to have the entire party fly, one arrow and everyone risks plummeting to their deaths. Ouch.
Second, until you get 6th level slots, forget giving your entire party flight. Since, again, the duration is concentration, you can't spend multiple 3rd level slots to have multiple allies fly. You have to be high enough level to cast a 6th level spell (for a 4-man party) or 7th level spell (5-man party), etc.
And then it can be ruined for everyone by a simple arrow. Am I the only one finding this highly unsatisfying?

Be a Sorcerer, with indefinite flying time that doesn't require concentration.

Bonus points: combine it with another spell that requires concentration, like Invisibility.

[Galen]

Be a Sorcerer, with indefinite flying time that doesn't require concentration.

Bonus points: combine it with another spell that requires concentration, like Invisibility.I may have missed the part where it meshes with D&D being a team game. To clarify, I want the entire party to be involved in aerial combat, not one lucky guy being able to fly with a class feature that's not subject to concentration, while the others watch longingly from the ground or risk TPK-by-single-arrow.

[Snails]

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I actually prefer that you don't start seeing flying adventurers until high level, and that it's a better mode of transportation then anything else.

Other then that, just be sure you have featherfall ready, and invest in your Con saves if you wanna be a flyer.

I agree.

This rule makes Flying more than 20 or 30 or so feet above the ground potentially costly. In 1e/2e a lucky Dispel Magic could do the same. Now anybody with a bow might get lucky, due to the Concentration requirements.

There are classic spells like Flying and Invisibility that were incredibly useful both in combat and out of combat. I rather like that the risk and rewards are now a little more nuanced.

[Easy_Lee]

If you want your players to be able to fly, send them on a mystic quest:

They have to do a great service for an air elemental
They must defeat an air elemental in battle
The spirit of the wind has been stolen from the land, causing a coming cataclysm unless the players free her
Whatever else you can think of


Once they've completed the quest, have the air elemental / spirit / whatever grant them all the supernatural ability of flight. You can specify the rules of that flight however you want, and everybody feels like a badass for having the ability.

Bonus points: let anyone who already took the flight spell or flight / feather fall / levitate as a feature swap it out with an equivalent feature (could give the dragon sorcerers some wizard feature). Everyone's happy.

[archaeo]

I may have missed the part where it meshes with D&D being a team game. To clarify, I want the entire party to be involved in aerial combat, not one lucky guy being able to fly with a class feature that's not subject to concentration, while the others watch longingly from the ground or risk TPK-by-single-arrow.

Anyone casting fly on the whole party almost certainly has a number of ways to prevent killing everybody, from taking War Caster and bumping Con to memorizing feather fall. I mean, a caster needs access to 6th level spells in order to cast it on an entire party of 4 adventurers; a level 11 Wizard is going to have plenty of time to get safe flying tools together by then and plenty of memorization space to include them.

Also, the DMG is almost certain to have a variety of magic items that provide a flying speed. We already have Potions of Flying, after all. As a DM, should I create a monster that you have to fly to get to and my players know about it ahead of time, I would have no problem doing a side-quest for some Potions of Flying if they didn't want to rely on Caster McWizardson's ability to make Con saves.

[Totema]

I also anticipate the return of the venerable Flying Carpet.:smallbiggrin:

[Edge of Dreams]

I think it's an improvement over 3.5 where getting flight for the whole party was so easy that people started to assume everyone could either fly once over a certain level or were automatically underpowered (For example, lack of access to flight via magic items was one of the most common arguments as to why Vow of Poverty isn't overpowered). Flight **should** be something special and potentially dangerous, unless the DM specifically decides to make a safer option more readily available.

[DeAnno]

It's worth noting that Feather Fall is a 1st level reaction that affects the entire party.

[Galen]

It's worth noting that Feather Fall is a 1st level reaction that affects the entire party.Yes, I know. And it's just bad design that a 3rd level spell (6-7th level if you want to affect the entire party) comes with a 1st level slot tax. I think I'll just change it so when Fly ends due to loss of concentration, it is downgraded to Feather Fall.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Consider that as feather fall requires a reaction to use there is an element of strategy involved. For example, the need to reserve a reaction to feather fall makes it dangerous to Counterspell or cast Shield. An especially cruel mage could Counterspell your Feather Fall.

[Galen]

I understand. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. You have already expended a 7th level slot to make your party fly for 10 minutes, for crying out loud. You didn't teleport them to the next continent, you didn't lay waste to a city, you didn't slay a dragon, you didn't summon a demon. You made 5 people fly for 10 minutes. At the cost of a 7th level slot. Honestly, that's a fair use of a 7th level spell, and you should not be worried about keeping additional slots open, keeping a Reaction open, worried about counterspell, and so on, just to avoid TPK. The amount of precautions that need to be taken if this is played by RAW makes for inelegant and unfun play. Call it strategy if you will, I call it sucking the fun out of the game.

[Beleriphon]

I understand. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. You have already expended a 7th level slot to make your party fly for 10 minutes, for crying out loud. You didn't teleport them to the next continent, you didn't lay waste to a city, you didn't slay a dragon, you didn't summon a demon. You made 5 people fly for 10 minutes. At the cost of a 7th level slot. Honestly, that's a fair use of a 7th level spell, and you should not be worried about keeping additional slots open, keeping a Reaction open, worried about counterspell, and so on, just to avoid TPK. The amount of precautions that need to be taken if this is played by RAW makes for inelegant and unfun play. Call it strategy if you will, I call it sucking the fun out of the game.

Or its an intentional design to keep the players more grounded, literally and figuratively.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Any party at with level 7 spells is going to have other options available than 'SAVE US ONE MAGE GUY :(' if they get in trouble, or at least one would hope so. It's a great opportunity for creative roleplaying and maybe some rules bending, like a druid casting a spell for trees to catch you gently and reduce the damage. Maybe your rogue is Batman with grappling hooks. Maybe you can Wall of Ice to create a gentle slide perfectly shaped to catch the falling party. Maybe you all just leverage Resistance to reduce the damage!

[Galen]

Any party at with level 7 spells is going to have other options available than 'SAVE US ONE MAGE GUY :(' if they get in trouble, or at least one would hope so. It's a great opportunity for creative roleplaying and maybe some rules bending, like a druid casting a spell for trees to catch you gently and reduce the damage. Maybe your rogue is Batman with grappling hooks. Maybe you can Wall of Ice to create a gentle slide perfectly shaped to catch the falling party. Maybe you all just leverage Resistance to reduce the damage!
I can totally imagine Gamers II: Dorkness Rising dialogue here:


Cass: And because of that, the party died, what were you thinking?!
Lodge: Perhaps that it would force you TO ROLEPLAY!!!!

Also, does the fact you admit there may be "some rule bending" required count as admitting I am right when I say RAW is highly unsatisfactory in this particular case? If that is the case, I think we're merely haggling over the price (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:George_Bernard_Shaw) here. IMHO, "As you lose concentration on your Fly spell, you can no longer propel yourself, and plummet glide gently to the ground" is all the rule bending you're going to need.

[BW022]

How does one do aerial combat in 5e using this spell? First, note bolded parts. One arrow, and you risk plummeting to your death. In fact, if you spend a 6th or 7th level slot to have the entire party fly, one arrow and everyone risks plummeting to their deaths. Ouch.


Start by realizing that most opponents do not necessarily have ranged weapons. Something like 75% of the monsters in the MM do not have ranged attacks and even amount NPCs only about half might and only half of those are any good at it.

Most beasts do not have ranged weapons (bears, wolves, crocodiles, snakes, lions, etc.), nor most undead. Even humanoid monsters may not have ranged weapons, only ones with limited range or ammunition (i.e. thrown weapons), or not be terribly good with them (i.e. limited dexterity). Most times, you'll look at your opponent and then decide if flight is better than any of your other 3rd-level spells. If it is a group of dire wolves... you are pretty much 100% untouchable. If it was some goblins with javelins on dire wolves, flying up 100' you would be pretty much untouchable. If it was a group of sylvan elves with bows... I'd recommend fireball instead. Like any spell, it is more effective against certain opponents.

If for some reason you need to fly against ranged or other flying creatures... I would recommend defensive spells (such as mage armor, mirror image, shield, etc.), flying low (so you don't fall far if it fails), ensuring that other party members are better targets, or having feather fall prepared.

[Galen]

If for some reason you need to fly against ranged or other flying creatures... I would recommend defensive spells (such as mage armor, mirror image, shield, etc.), flying low (so you don't fall far if it fails), ensuring that other party members are better targets, or having feather fall prepared.
Of course it can be done. But that's a lot of inelegant precautions and taxation for achieving a fairly straightforward effect with a 7th level spell. Designers dropped the ball here, plain and simple.

[Scirocco]

It's an end to "Yay we're all flying, thus we get to skip actually having to overcome this encounter". Goodbye flying invisible wizards, hello fighters!

[TheDeadlyShoe]

@Galen: nnnnno? they just didn't design the game so you could fly everywhere all the time. it's now extraordinary rather than standard, and comes with risks and tradeoffs.

untouchable flying greater invisibility wizards is one thing, 5e is another.

[Naanomi]

they just didn't design the game so you could fly everywhere all the time.
A draconic sorcerer and, in a way, a beastmaster ranger can fly without many of these limitations; though it would appear very difficult to have any sort of balanced party in flight for both extended and combat situations

[LawfulNifty]

When I played 3.5, if someone took damage while flying magically, they had to pass a Concentration check or plummet. I guess that was a house-rule? I feel like aerial combat ought to carry a not-insignificant risk of plummeting to your death.

If you like aerial combat but don't want to change an official spell or give your players the ability to fly over obstacles willy-nilly, an adventure where everyone temporarily has a fly speed could be fun. Maybe the Temple of the Wind is imbued with mystical energies that grant everyone within it the power of flight, or whatever. That would also let you test out low-risk aerial combat and see if you want to make it an always-on part of your campaign world.

[Snails]

Yes, I know. And it's just bad design that a 3rd level spell (6-7th level if you want to affect the entire party) comes with a 1st level slot tax. I think I'll just change it so when Fly ends due to loss of concentration, it is downgraded to Feather Fall.

That some people such as yourself may dislike the change does not make it bad design. The designers made this choice on purpose, and it makes more than enough sense.

The point is clearly that one PC cannot make the entire party Fly high without making certain strategic sacrifices beyond just the spell. The main cost is the not the prepped spell but being careful about whether to hold on to the Reaction. If you do not like the cost, then either other PCs need to have the resources to help, or you all have to stay low enough that the fall would be not terrible, or you need to invest in a Flying carpet or similar.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That some people such as yourself may dislike the change does not make it bad design. The designers made this choice on purpose, and it makes more than enough sense.

The point is clearly that one PC cannot make the entire party Fly high without making certain strategic sacrifices beyond just the spell. The main cost is the not the prepped spell but being careful about whether to hold on to the Reaction. If you do not like the cost, then either other PCs need to have the resources to help, or you all have to stay low enough that the fall would be not terrible, or you need to invest in a Flying carpet or similar.

Given the density of complaints about "caster flies out of reach of fighter's sword" complaints over the years I see putting a tighter leash on possibly the biggest tactical advantage you can obtain as flat out great design. But opinions will obviously vary. I wish people would stop putting anything they don't like as "terrible design" without further qualification as if its an objective fact of the multiverse.

And Re-introducing aerial combat is as simple as magical items anyways, now without WBL concerns as far as anyone can tell. So if you want an aerial combat game its as simple as raiding the tomb of the Legendary Aerial Knights of Whatever and picking up a party appropriate number of boots/brooms/cloak/etc that grant you a fly speed equal to your movement and hovering.

Now everybody can fly all they want.

Or something more limited of course if you don't want constant flight.

[thereaper]

Players shouldn't be able to fly around forever without significant costs. The ability to do so is outright broken, as 3.5 proved, simply because it allows a party to trivialize vast quantities of challenges and encounters.

Heck, flight is still too strong, as the 5e Tarrasque proves.

[rlc]

Of course it can be done. But that's a lot of inelegant precautions and taxation for achieving a fairly straightforward effect with a 7th level spell. Designers dropped the ball here, plain and simple.
What you mean to say is that you don't like it and that's terrible. I quite like that magic isn't the end all and be all and that one spell doesn't automatically turn into another one once it ends.

[MustacheFart]

You want your whole party to fly? How about this?

Step 1) Buy an elephant.
Step 2) Attach a large basket to elephant
Step 3) Everyone gets in the basket
Step 4) Cast fly on the elephant.

There. A whole party flying around. Correct me if I am wrong but the caster of the fly spell could simply duck down in the basket to maintain the spell. Everyone else can attack with no issue. Even the caster would have cover.

[Steel Mirror]

You want your whole party to fly? How about this?

Step 1) Buy an elephant.
Step 2) Attach a large basket to elephant
Step 3) Everyone gets in the basket
Step 4) Cast fly on the elephant.

There. A whole party flying around. Correct me if I am wrong but the caster of the fly spell could simply duck down in the basket to maintain the spell. Everyone else can attack with no issue. Even the caster would have cover.You forgot step 3.5) give magic feather to elephant.

[MustacheFart]

You forgot step 3.5) give magic feather to elephant.

:smallwink:


Think of the image of that? A huge elephant flying with a basket below full of enemies blasting/raining down death. That should be pretty fun. The best part? If the bad guys somehow manage to kill the elephant, no big deal. Just cast feather fall on the elephant and the party will safely land. Nothing in the spell Featherfall says the creature has to be alive/conscious.

[Steel Mirror]

Think of the image of that? A huge elephant flying with a basket below full of enemies blasting/raining down death. That should be pretty fun. The best part? If the bad guys somehow manage to kill the elephant, no big deal. Just cast feather fall on the elephant and the party will safely land. Nothing in the spell Featherfall says the creature has to be alive/conscious.Alternate idea: cast featherfall on just the party and aim the dead, falling elephant at the bad guys. It will be a pain to clean up the mess later, but maybe you could find a necromancer to raise your flying zombie elephant for an encore performance.

[Demonic Spoon]

Being able to completely ignore terrain and be literally unhittable by melee enemies is pretty damn strong. I think it's perfectly reasonable that such a huge advantage should come with some downsides, such as needing to prepare Feather Fall.

[BW022]

Of course it can be done. But that's a lot of inelegant precautions and taxation for achieving a fairly straightforward effect with a 7th level spell. Designers dropped the ball here, plain and simple.

Fly is a 3rd-level spell. I don't know where you get 7th-level spell from?

Further, this was also a general problem in previous editions. Dispell magic was utterly fatal on fly spells also. Flying mounts at high level were insanely risky as one fireball would kill the mount and you'd fall to your death. I've taken PCs out that way.

5E fly only lasts up to ten minutes. It is only generally used for tactical combat or avoiding climbs up cliffs or something. In combat, most PCs aren't going up 50' (let alone hundreds of feet). Going high would waste rounds in initiative and would put you out of range of your other party members. Most players stay within range of each other for blocking, buff spells, and help. For most wizards... fly is a defensive spell to keep you out of melee.

I like the 5E system of concentration spells. It avoids groups spending massive amounts of time buffing until every PC now have five or six active spells which need to be tracked and their combat potential virtually doubles. It avoids the 3.x system where encounters assume PCs will magically all add +4 to AC, be hasted, flying, immune to fire, charm, and a half dozen other effects. In 5E, casters now have to decide which short term effects to put up. Non-caster abilities because more important since casters can no longer put up a half-dozen spells every combat.

At 5th-level, fly is a pretty much 100% defense against half or more of the encounters a wizard is likely to face. Wolves, bears, zombies, tigers, etc. simply can't attack you anymore. Bugbears, trolls, bandits, etc. without bows, slings, or crossbows... could find themselves virtually unable to hit you or get within thrown range. That is pretty good for one 3rd-level spell slot.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Alternate idea: cast featherfall on just the party and aim the dead, falling elephant at the bad guys. It will be a pain to clean up the mess later, but maybe you could find a necromancer to raise your flying zombie elephant for an encore performance.

All complaints about the new fly spells are now invalid. :D

But speaking seriously, flight is a massive tactical advantage and it gave casters way too much power in 3e because it bypassed the Climb and Acrobatics skills. The current rules move it from "if you are a wizard you must have this buff" to "this is a useful buff for a transmuter to know". The key difference here is that it's less of a combat power and more of a utility power. I'm glad that wizards have had their power curbed in this edition.

If you're a player and you really want 3e-style combat flight, then you should go on a quest to find a flying carpet, and then that will be your PC's defining feature (which is pretty awesome because it's more unique).

[Snails]

Being able to completely ignore terrain and be literally unhittable by melee enemies is pretty damn strong. I think it's perfectly reasonable that such a huge advantage should come with some downsides, such as needing to prepare Feather Fall.

If we had never played D&D before, and the first version listed Fly as a 5th level spell, no one would complain. While DDoor (4th) and Teleport (5th) are better for strategic movement, they are inflexible within an ongoing combat.

[archaeo]

Fly is a 3rd-level spell. I don't know where you get 7th-level spell from?

As I said on the previous page, in order to get a whole party of 4 PCs to fly, you have to burn a 7th-level slot.

As I will say on this page, I was totally wrong and it only requires a 6th-level slot to get 4 PCs in air. Oops! You get an additional flier every with each slot level.

No size restrictions though, so Flying Elephant Death Balloon is a go.

[Shining Wrath]

Magic has been nerfed in 5e. Fly is one example of a nerfed spell.

There's no reason why only one member of a four person party would have access to the spell, and as noted, the Draconic sorcerer laughs at your petty spell, as does a druid of sufficient level to pick up an alternative shape with flight.

Far too many 3.5 encounters featured a wizard flying over entire dungeons. In the tier discussions when giving examples of the superiority of wizards, being able to fly through a dragon's lair and avoid many of the traps by doing so was a go-to example. Although I always thought a supra-genius dragon would locate an AMF above a lava field, so that your Feather Fall would give you a moment to contemplate the growing warmth of the soles of your shoes, but anyway, at-will Fly was broken at 3rd level and Overland Flight should have been 8th.

[Snails]

Also, keep in mind that it was necessary to nerf Flying to some degree, because high mobility is easier to exploit. In 5e move + attack + attack + attack + move and similar are standard tactics anyone can do.

[Knaight]

If we had never played D&D before, and the first version listed Fly as a 5th level spell, no one would complain. While DDoor (4th) and Teleport (5th) are better for strategic movement, they are inflexible within an ongoing combat.

Exactly. Fly being pretty high level seems entirely reasonable to me. Heck, not having flying at all seems fairly reasonable to me.