pact of the chain vs monster manual rules?

[CyberThread]

am taking my toys and going on

[archaeo]

Could you maybe provide the wording, for those of us who don't have the MM ourselves?

[Chaosvii7]

Roleplaying.

That's what.

[Daishain]

snip
Given that the only means to get a quasit appears to be the pact of the chain, I would assume that this is intended. If you pick a quasit familiar, it can, at its discretion, decide to give you the middle finger and go on its merry way through the material plane, spreading chaos as it does so. The fluff seems to indicate that it would prefer to retain the protection of a powerful master if possible, so such a betrayal doesn't seem to necessarily be likely.

Of course, you can obtain a new familiar to replace it as soon as you find the time to cast the ritual again, so this is only a temporary setback (discounting whatever problems the quasit may have caused by leaving in the heat of the moment)

[Daishain]

Could you maybe provide the wording, for those of us who don't have the MM ourselves?
Thread on this subforum has a link to a collection of very badly taken pictures of MM. Quasit happened to be on one of them, and has a subsection on its role as a familiar. The part relevant to this would be the following statement:

"At any time and for any reason, the quasit can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond"

[Naanomi]

I would guess that fear of the bigger demon who sent it as part of your pact keeps it in line somewhat... Even more so if it were sent by some alien horror beyond space and time

[rlc]

The quasit would probably need a good enough reason to leave, though I'd say the "good enough" bar is probably set pretty low.

[Stan]

If you're going to pick a chaotic evil familiar, you have to accept the possibility that they will betray you given the right circumstances.

[DiBastet]

This is a plot point in a dungeon magazine adventure.

The devil familiar despised the master and devised a plan to betray him to the lord of the 1st, IIRC, but then the familiar got afraid that the powerful wizard would unveil the plot and tried to bail out. But the plan continued, the wizard died, and now the familiar is afraid that the lord of the 1st is pissed with him because of that and is just hiding now...

So yeah, he may just be scheming your demise. Whether he's got the guts to carry it out or not it's another story

[Talyn]

Frankly, if you are the type of spellcaster to get a quasit familiar, you ought to be the kind of person who expects to be betrayed by their underling at the first sign of weakness, anyways.

[Surrealistik]

Why even bother with a Quasit when you can take an unfailingly loyal Imp which is at least as good? :smalltongue:

[Socko525]

My interpretation of the Monster Manual was that the rules for those familiars was for non-Warlock characters. i.e Warlock's familiars work as it's written, but let's say another caster wants a quasit familiar, let's say a sorcerer, they would use those rules.


Also worth mentioning there's no variant rules for the imp, but there are for pseudodragon:

Pseudodragon Familiar:
"Some psuedodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar. Such pseudodragons have the following trait.
Familiar. The pseudodragon can serve another creature as a familiar, forming a magic, telepathic bond with that willing companion. While the two are bonded, the companion can sense what the pseudodragon senses as long as they are within 1 mile of each other. While the pseudodragon is within 10 feet of its companion, the companion shares the pseudodragon's Magic Resistance trait (advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects). At any time and for any reason, the pseudodragon can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond."

Sounds almost better than pact of chain in some respects to me....

[Surrealistik]

My interpretation of the Monster Manual was that the rules for those familiars was for non-Warlock characters. i.e Warlock's familiars work as it's written, but let's say another caster wants a quasit familiar, let's say a sorcerer, they would use those rules.


Also worth mentioning there's no variant rules for the imp, but there are for pseudodragon:

Pseudodragon Familiar:
"Some psuedodragons are willing to serve spellcasters as a familiar. Such pseudodragons have the following trait.
Familiar. The pseudodragon can serve another creature as a familiar, forming a magic, telepathic bond with that willing companion. While the two are bonded, the companion can sense what the pseudodragon senses as long as they are within 1 mile of each other. While the pseudodragon is within 10 feet of its companion, the companion shares the pseudodragon's Magic Resistance trait (advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects). At any time and for any reason, the pseudodragon can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond."

Sounds almost better than pact of chain in some respects to me....

Really?

I find it strange that the imp doesn't have those rules since it did, down to the exact letter, in the closed alpha; I suppose it makes sense though from a balance perspective as an imp with shared Magic Resistance would be pretty much the best familiar in every way, especially since it can just go invisible, fly and remain aloft 15 feet up and take the dodge action round after round in combat.

That said, it's probably not so useful on the pseudodragon beyond the first couple of levels given how hopelessly fragile it is, and how it lacks anything like at-will invisibility. Beyond that, there's also the apparent possibility of it just jumping ship.

Ultimately, the real value of a familiar is its capacity as a scout and the imp is hands down the best at that.

[Envyus]

Really?

I find it strange that the imp doesn't have those rules since it did, down to the exact letter, in the closed alpha; I suppose it makes sense though from a balance perspective as an imp with shared Magic Resistance would be pretty much the best familiar in every way, especially since it can just go invisible, fly and remain aloft 15 feet up and take the dodge action round after round in combat.

That said, it's probably not so useful on the pseudodragon beyond the first couple of levels given how hopelessly fragile it is, and how it lacks anything like at-will invisibility. Beyond that, there's also the apparent possibility of it just jumping ship.

Ultimately, the real value of a familiar is its capacity as a scout and the imp is hands down the best at that.

The Imp being a Devil also won't ditch you for no reason.

[Surrealistik]

The Imp being a Devil also won't ditch you for no reason.

Exactly, that's one of the things that compounds its already significant advantages; it's pretty much bound to you.

[CyberThread]

advatage against magical effects is a pretty big deal.

[Freelance GM]

To me, it seems like any non-warlock has to roleplay out negotiating a Quasit or other MM creature into becoming its familiar.

However, ONLY the Pact of the Chain Warlock can summon those creatures with Find Familiar. Find Familiar says that "the familiar can act independently, but it always obeys your commands." So, it would be compelled to obey a Chain pact Warlock, while it could abandon any other caster whenever it suited the Quasit.

[Callin]

Well the Find Familiar Ritual says in the first paragraph


You gain the service of a Familiar, a SPIRIT that takes an ANIMAL FORM you CHOOSE: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad) hawk, lizard, ect ect. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a clelestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.

Added BIU for emphasis. So you dont actually summon an actual Quasit with Pact of the Chain, you just get the option to turn the spirit into that form.

Having not read the MM I can only speculate that this feature is for OTHERS who somehow get a familiar through a means other than the Ritual.

[EternalHobbyist]

So you dont actually summon an actual Quasit with Pact of the Chain, you just get the option to turn the spirit into that form.


Looks correct to me, and the Pact RAW specifies that you can choose a "special form" for your familiar, rather than an actual Quasit, imp, etc.

Good catch.

[Socko525]

advatage against magical effects is a pretty big deal.

Right? Although now that I think about it, is there anything RAW for what is considered a "magical effect" my first thought is a dragons breath weapon, but who knows what else falls under that.

[Surrealistik]

Right? Although now that I think about it, is there anything RAW for what is considered a "magical effect" my first thought is a dragons breath weapon, but who knows what else falls under that.

It would be if the Pseudodragon weren't so hopelessly fragile.

Seriously, it has 7 HP with no defensive abilities or resistances.

[CyberThread]

It would be if the Pseudodragon weren't so hopelessly fragile.

Seriously, it has 7 HP with no defensive abilities or resistances.


Limited Telepathy : call for help

Magic Resistance: Gain advantage against spells that produce some sort of check

Keen Sense : Gain advantage on checks that are perception based on sound,smell,sight.



Has a poison that could be milked?


Has a flight speed of 60.



Seems like it has some things to keep it alive. An not like you have to wait a year to find a new one, just cast the spell again.

[Warskull]

You can lose your familiar at any time and use your pact to find a new one.

[Surrealistik]

Limited Telepathy : call for help

Magic Resistance: Gain advantage against spells that produce some sort of check

Keen Sense : Gain advantage on checks that are perception based on sound,smell,sight.



Has a poison that could be milked?


Has a flight speed of 60.



Seems like it has some things to keep it alive. An not like you have to wait a year to find a new one, just cast the spell again.

It has to be within 10 feet of you in combat to gain the benefits of Magic Resistance, and the MR isn't going to mean much vs anything but the lowest level magic in terms of saving it. All of these traits you're listing won't mean a thing in combat; it is all of one arrow, spell (save or not) or melee attack away from dying, and it doesn't even have invisibility to conceal itself.

Therefore, in practice, I don't see the shared MR being much of a benefit at all, even if it's permitted, and certainly not enough of a benefit to make the dragon worth picking over the imp.

[CyberThread]

Familiar. The imp can enter into a contract to serve
another creature as a familiar, forming a telepathic bond with
its willing master. While the two are bonded, the master can
sense what the imp senses as long as they are within l mile
of each other. While the imp is within 10 feet of its master,
the master shares the imp's Magic Resistance trait. If its
master violates the terms of the contract, the imp can end its
service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond.

[Surrealistik]

Ah, there we go; that's the alpha playtest imp I know and love!

[randomodo]

Why even bother with a Quasit when you can take an unfailingly loyal Imp which is at least as good? :smalltongue:

Because Baratvosh-ka, the demon lord of blood, random acts of violence, and DVRs that invariably cut off the last two minutes of your recordings, has quasits who serve him (and thus, serve his warlocks), rather than imps.

[Envyus]

Ah, there we go; that's the alpha playtest imp I know and love!

It's in the actual book as well I just found out. But it's not under the Imp section its in the devil section. Overall much better then the Quasit because they can stop being a serving whenever they want. Imps can only "If its master violates the terms of the contract, the imp can end its service as a familiar, ending the telepathic bond."

[Falka]

Chain Pact familiars don't need to be pampered, while 'normal' fiendish familiars seem like they can have their own agenda. Which as a DM I think I'd make it quite clear for the player.