In which I propose thought experiment where I don't actually have to do any thinking

[Marlowe]

The winsome and sensibly-dressed young lady depicted below is from page 109 of Tome of magic, the Book of No Playtesting:
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120203027/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/2/24/96081-1-.jpg/365px-96081-1-.jpg

Looks like one of my campaign NPCs...Anyway, presumably she is supposed to be a Shadowcaster. Poor young miss.

My request to you, fellow people of the playground of giants, is to make up a build for her that has the feel and flavour of a Shadowcaster without suffering from the horrible I'm-all-out-of-useful-things-to-do-today-AGAIN-ness of a Shadowcaster. This is not Zinc Saucier, so you can use some Shadowcaster levels if you want.

So, suggest something that does what a Shadowcaster is supposed to do, and has the right spooky feel, without actually being one.

I keep wanting to use Warlock as a base, but that is always my first thought about anything. :smallsmile:

Welcoming suggestions!

[malonkey1]

Well, what I would do is probably run Beguiler prestiging into Shadowcraft Mage (and Shadow Adept, if you're willing to use Forgotten Realms content). I'll probably see about hashing out an actual BUILD later, but that's the basic idea I'm gonna be thinking of. Warlock actually wouldn't be so great for mimicking a Shadowcaster, seeing as they have a far more limited repertoire, and while a few have shadowy themes, most are not.

[Diovid]

First note that there is a semi-official fix from the shadowcaster's official creator:
Okay, I've been giving this a lot of thought, taking into account what people here have been saying, as well as comments from other folks, and a few other RPG writers. The following alterations are what I'm currently considering. This is not official errata. This is not even unofficial errata. I may well change my mind on one or all of these, before I give my "final" stamp of approval on any tweaks to the class. (And of course, even once I do, it'll have no official weight.)

Now, this doesn't go as far as some of you have requested, but it's where I'd like to start. If some of you would like to volunteer to run a few playtest adventures with these changes in place, I'd very much love to know how it goes.

1) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Int. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Int is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

2) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can. You must still have at least one mystery of any given level equivalent (1st, 2nd, etc.) before you can get a mystery of the next higher level within a type (Apprentice, Initiate, Master), but they need not come from the same Path.

3) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

4) Allow the shadowcaster to swap out mysteries, like a sorcerer does spells, with the caveat that if you suddenly "un-complete" a Path, you lose a feat as well.

5) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

(And BTW, the warp spell mystery shouldn't say that it allows a Will save. The caster level check determines success or failure.)

Now, be aware that I have not playtested the changes myself. I'm not running a game at present--my last campaign wrapped up a few weeks ago--nor am I currently playing a shadowcaster. I also haven't been able to devote too much time to considering them, as I've just wrapped up a huge gig for WotC, and am about to dive into a short one for Vampire, before (tentatively) starting another for WotC. So I'll be the first to admit, there might be repurcussions to these ideas that I haven't yet seen. I'm quite eager to hear any thoughts you folks have, and any results that might come up in play. As I've said before, the shadowcaster was my first attempt to design anything so fundamentally different from the standard classes, and I won't pretend it's perfect.

So let's make it perfect.
Also note that these articles somewhat expand the shadowcaster's options:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070725
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a

Now, it is argued that this is not enough to make them actually viable, but it probably goes a long way.

[Marlowe]

I'm aware of that fix, however it requires "asking the DM". I was hoping for some ideas made up of bits and pieces of things that wouldn't require approval. At least, no more than anything else is subject to DM approval. I've had DMs that just flat-out ban half the PHB.

Beguiler look nice. I'd agree that Warlock isn't the best fit, it just happens to be one I'd gravitate towards without input. It also has a broadly similar "dark" theme. Although in the Warlock's case the "darkness" is less "arty atmospheric mood lighting" and more "I'll have bats with everything, thanks".

[Marlowe]

Well, what I've been messing with is taking an Inspire Awe Bard chassis and using the likes of Night Haunt+Deceptive/Fascinating Illumination to provide a range of Spell-Like Abilities.

Which is fun, only it keeps trying to morph into a rather underpowered Fear/Enchanter build. And I keep thinking there's better ways to treat a Bard. There's also not a lot of feats that grant SLAs, and even less that turn them into something decent.

Playing with the Shadowcaster base class, there does seem to be at least one issue with that "fix"; it means you have to wait until 5th level for your first bonus feat instead of getting it at 2nd. It doesn't help a lot at very low levels, oddly enough. Being able to cast "Bend Perspective" or the like 1 extra time per day might be handy, but maybe not quite as handy as getting "Still Mystery" nice and early so you can put on some armour.

[Chronos]

All I'll add to this discussion is that the lady in question appears to be literally stepping out of shadows. As in, emerging from a portal of some sort of shadow-stuff. So I'd try to give her some sort of Shadow Jump or Shadow Walk ability.

[Marlowe]

Think it's Voyage into Shadow/Shadow Walk/Path of Shadow. Which tells us she's at least 11th level.

Thankfully, that's a spell/power a lot of classes get.

[DeAnno]

Illumian Swordsage 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage +3/Shadow Sentinel 10/Umbral Disciple 3/Swordsage +1

A very shadow themed and very reasonable melee/stealth package; 20th level features a maneuver and stance selection of up to 6th level.

[A Tad Insane]

I think she's probably a master of shadow, considering the big floaty shadow thing. It's a class that also always arcane spell casters, so she could be a wizard

[ben-zayb]

^ Did you mean Master of Shrouds? Because that's the first class I had in mind after SCM. A Cleric base with either Dread Necro or Binder dip for early entry would be thematic.

[A Tad Insane]

^ Did you mean Master of Shrouds? Because that's the first class I had in mind after SCM. A Cleric base with either Dread Necro or Binder dip for early entry would be thematic.

No
http://dndtools.eu/classes/master-of-shadow/

A cleric might be a decent base for a shadowcaster, but why DN or binder?

[ben-zayb]

No
http://dndtools.eu/classes/master-of-shadow/

A cleric might be a decent base for a shadowcaster, but why DN or binder?Thematically, DN is related to controlling undead (including spirit forms like shadows) while Binder is related to binding otherworldly beings, both of which appears appropriate for the image posted above. Mechanically, they have the requisite good base will save for a Cleric 2/ X 1/ Master of Shrouds 10 build, although the DN pulls ahead by giving off-combat infinite heal and an additional turning pool.

EDIT: I'd probably complete the build with a malconvoker just to continue with the "bending evil forces to your will" theme. Taking dips into account, it'll end up:
Divine Magician, Spontaneous Domain, Cloistered Cleric 2/ Dread Necromancer 1/ Master of Shrouds 10/ Contemplative 1/ Paragnosic Disciple 1/ Malconvoker 5/

[Marlowe]

ToM spends a lot of time talking about how there's no connection with Shadow and negative energy. I'm not entirely sure how Shadows get lumped in with undead.

Looking at the Shadowcaster's power, much of it involves effects very similar to standard Illusion spells. There's a fair number of Divination and Necromancy-like effects, somewhat less Conjuration and Transmutation-like mysteries, no Evocation or Enchantment analogs. Really, I've made this too easy. Any arcane spellcaster could probably put on extra eyeliner, concentrate on Illusion while shunning Evoc and Ench, and wind up a more competent shadowcaster than the shadowcaster. The beguiler and Bard even get the sneaky class skills.

As for class abilities, all it's really got are fundamentals (which are generally better than cantrips, but not that hot) Darkvision at level 3 (nice, but other classes can get it earlier), and Sustaining Shadow, which isn't likely to have much game effect unless the campaign involves long periods without food, water, or air.

Should have Evasion at least; that's a shadow/dark template standard. Odd that the base class themed around shadow doesn't have it.

[ben-zayb]

For some reason (totally not reading comprehension failure), I thought you were expecting a build based off that image of a person controlling a Shadow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm)y undead creature with what seemed like plenty more souls trapped in the green mist (a color related more to associated to life/rot/death than shadows). My bad!:smalltongue:

With that in mind, I agree with the Beguiler Shadowcraft Mage, and also suggesting a Spontaneous-Domain (Shadow) Cloistered Cleric / Binder / Tenebrous Apostate for the Flicker pseudo-mystery and the undispellable Deeper Darkness. You can also grab the Divine Counterspell feat to emulate the supposed "Anti-mage" feel of Shadowcasters.

Then, you can grab the Trickery Domain if you want the stealth skills. Of course, you may be mistaking Stealth = Shadow, which isn't necessarily the case. Shadowcaster utilizes shadows differently from the Shadowdancers. Evasion isn't really synonymous with shadow, but you can just grab a ring or dip 2 levels of Rogue or Monk for that. Rogue gives 1d6 (up to +20 with Craven) synergized with being unseen, while the Monk gives a SADness synergy and a feat or three.

[Marlowe]

Well, my fault because I've totally gone and asked two questions at once and linked them with the assumption that Young Miss is a Shadowcaster. :smallsmile: She could just as easily be (say) A Cleric of Xan Yae w/ Celerity and Shadow Domains and a Swordsage dip.

And regard to the question of "How do you make an ersatz Shadowcaster that's better than a Shadowcaster?" I think it's pretty obvious that there's plenty of ways. So if you want to answer the other question of "What's Dustergirl's build?" then by all means lets have fun with that.