Dexterity Based Casting

[Milo v3]

In one of the recent threads, I noticed that some people thought that having a dexterity based casting class would be a good idea, with others opposed to it.

Personally I like the idea of their being supernaturals with powers based on their physical statistics with both already existing in "some way" in 3.5e and PF, with Totemists and Witchdoctors both having non-extraordinary powers from their Constitution.

As a person who was planning on writing up a casting class for every ability score, I am interested what peoples views would be.

[Rickshaw]

Before I get into anything else, I just want to say I really (really) like the idea of someone who is super hyper focused on the somatic components of spells in exclusion, to the point of it becoming a sort of dance as a sort of way to represent Dex based casting.

As of yet there is only one caster that I know of that casts off of a physical stat - the pathfinder scarred witchdocter that caste off con.

It's not too bad as far as balance goes because con is only so helpful to a class with a d6 hit die, despite the hyperfocus casters usually put into boosting the casting stat. Don't get me wrong it's great, but it's also not really changing a whole lot.

Dex (or str) on the other hand can be used in weapon attacks, which could potentially get extremely out of control if this caster gets full 9 levels of casting, and then also has a bow or any finesse-able weapon (or the whole dervish dance thing with scimitars) as well. It's also potentially going to add a ton to initiative and AC.

The only way I could see this not getting absolutely way out of hand is to put restrictions on holding anything at all in thier hands while casting or some such thing.

[Shalist]

Flavor-wise, the first thing that popped into my mind for dexterity (somatic)-based casting is Naruto, and all those hand-seals (http://www.leafninja.com/hands.php) that much of their 'magic' is based around. Higher level spells would require longer, more complicated sequences, and folks with greater dexterity could perform them more precisely (higher save DC), and learn them more quickly (bonus spells for higher ability score), and so on.

Regarding needing both hands...presumably regular wizards don't have much trouble juggling their quarterstaff while using 1 hand for material components, and 1 for somatic components, so this shouldn't be any worse in that regard, particularly since all that dexterity would help with the juggling...Dunno how much of an issue balance would really be, since presumably a 'wizard' using feats on ranged/melee combat would be suboptimal, and most wizards just use the dex of whatever they polymorph into for that sort of thing *shrug*.

[OldTrees1]

It is a good idea, provided it is not modeled after the SAD/DAD caster classes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can already do this to an extent with Illumians. It only affects bonus spells so your DCs will be bad, but that's not really a problem for a buffer, summoner or most gish spells.


Dex (or str) on the other hand can be used in weapon attacks, which could potentially get extremely out of control if this caster gets full 9 levels of casting, and then also has a bow or any finesse-able weapon (or the whole dervish dance thing with scimitars) as well. It's also potentially going to add a ton to initiative and AC.

The only way I could see this not getting absolutely way out of hand is to put restrictions on holding anything at all in thier hands while casting or some such thing.

You can already do it, just from the other direction. Zen Archery, Shiba Protector, Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing... there's tons of ways to get your mental stat of choice on attack & damage (among other things). There's really no reason melee can't have the same thing.

[Yael]

The Lost Tradition feat comes to mind.

[Know(Nothing)]

I think Jaunter uses Dex for its casting stat.

[Gemini476]

Flavor-wise, the first thing that popped into my mind for dexterity (somatic)-based casting is Naruto, and all those hand-seals (http://www.leafninja.com/hands.php) that much of their 'magic' is based around. Higher level spells would require longer, more complicated sequences, and folks with greater dexterity could perform them more precisely (higher save DC), and learn them more quickly (bonus spells for higher ability score), and so on.

The big example my mind immediately goes to when people mention Dex-based casting is Harry Potter, really. Lots of perfectly executed wand-waving and accurately enunciated spells. Dexterity to a T, in my mind.

Of course, HP magic is also largely based on ranged touch attacks. Or Reflex saves, to be more balanced. And largely at-will, albeit somewhat complicated - something like a skill-based check or so, perhaps?

Other Dex-based casting things include things like the Bending from Avatar: The Last Airbender (and Legend of Korra, I suppose). There's a whole lot of martial arts involved in that stuff.

The big issue with Dex-based casting is, of course, that Dex is the God-Stat. It adds to AC, initiative, ranged attack rolls... A Dex-based caster would only really need Dex and Con, therefore being even more SAD than a Wizard is.
...Maybe you could just skip saving throws entirely and make it entirely based around ranged attack rolls. (Not touch attack, just normal attacks.) That might be interesting.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The big issue with Dex-based casting is, of course, that Dex is the God-Stat. It adds to AC, initiative, ranged attack rolls... A Dex-based caster would only really need Dex and Con, therefore being even more SAD than a Wizard is.
...Maybe you could just skip saving throws entirely and make it entirely based around ranged attack rolls. (Not touch attack, just normal attacks.) That might be interesting.

You can already get that for most of the mental abilities. Wisdom is pretty easy - halfling druid with a Monk's Belt, Zen Archery and Yondalla's Sense gets all of those.
The thing is that most druids don't take those feats because they don't really need them.
Wizards could get Int to attack, too. They usually don't because they're fine without it. And there's tons of ways to get Cha to pretty much anything.
The only official way to get spellcasting off a physical ability score on the other hand is Illumian, and even then only partial.

Classes like Duskblade and Spellthief especially could benefit from Str or Dex casting. They would pay for their dependency on less stats with their limited spellcasting ability, so it's not like they would make the "pure" casters obsolete.
A non-T1/T2 dex-based caster can be useful without being overpowered. Since most of them are T3 or lower it might actually just the boost they need.

[Spore]

I could imagine some sort of ACF for bards for it. After all, not all entertainers like the medium of song and voice. Cha 8 bards HO!

"Stepdance of Charm Person":I really HATED THIS ONE GUY until he showed me how good at step dance he was!

After all this is a main point in some musicals. :D

[heavyfuel]

The Lost Tradition feat comes to mind.

Isn't Lost Tradition third party?

Anyway, the Illumian can gain bonus spells off of Strength with the Aeshkrau sigil. Is there a sigil that allows for Dex casting?

[Karnith]

I think Jaunter uses Dex for its casting stat.
Sort of; the Jaunter PrC grants additional uses per day of its Travel Powers based on a character's Dex bonus.

Isn't Lost Tradition third party?
Yes, it's from Bastards and Bloodlines, a third party 3.0 supplement.

Anyway, the Illumian can gain bonus spells off of Strength with the Aeshkrau sigil. Is there a sigil that allows for Dex casting?
Yes, Uurkrau allows a character to use her Dex score to determine bonus spells per day.

[Dalebert]

This brought to mind 2E illusionists. I believe they were required to have a 15 dex due to complex somatic components in their spells. It didn't actually benefit their spells aside from being required, however. That's still quite different than it being their main casting stat. Of course, in 2E, I think main casting stat was only relevant for what level of spells you could cast. It didn't affect saving throws or anything else to my recollection.

There I go showing my age again, but I'm sure there are many here who played 2E.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, it's from Bastards and Bloodlines, a third party 3.0 supplement.

It is? I thought it was from some dragonlance book, which was in that weird third-party-but-official category. Or was that Dynamic Priest?

[Karnith]

It is? I thought it was from some dragonlance book, which was in that weird third-party-but-official category. Or was that Dynamic Priest?
Dynamic Priest and its Int-based counterpart Academic Priest are both from Legends of the Twins, which to the best of my knowledge is an officially-licensed d20 Dragonlance (but not Dungeons and Dragons) book.

[Nihilarian]

I like the idea of a Dex based caster, but I would want to prevent it from being SAD. It could be split casting class, Dex to determine spells per day, Charisma to determine spell DC. Or base it entirely on Dex, but give it class features tied to another stat somehow.

All spells should have somatic components. Class features and feats that would let you cast in armor without incurring the Arcane Spell Failure chance shouldn't function.