What players know from failed spells

[tim01300]

So I have a few questions sorta around the same core idea. What do players get to know based off their spells? The other night the group that I DM for were in the middle of a fight when the cleric cast smite evil. What the party did not know was that the group they were fighting were actually good. When the cleric asked me which dice to role versus evil or neutral for damage I told him none, because they were good. Was this something the cleric would know from his spell?

I guess from that question do they get to know when any of their spells fail? For example if they cast slow and my badguy beats the save, do I tell them that, or should they just figure it out on his next turn when he continues to move at full speed?

Lastly when my bad guy has contingency on themselves, say to cast flame shield or mage armor or anything, and it goes off, do the PCs get a chance to roll to see if they know the spells going off?

[Taveena]

Well, the Contingency'd spell would, as far as I can tell, still allow a spellcraft check - but I'm not sure, not seeing the verbal or somatic components might screw that up a little.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Since Slow is a targeted spell you'd know if the enemy succeeded on his save.

As for Holy Smite and similar alingment-based spells you should certainly be able to tell that your spell did no damage, if not exactly why.

For your third question, you get a chance to identify a spell as it's being cast at DC 15+level. Contingency doesn't really cast spells, it just brings a precast spell into effect. There are no components, so you'd have to use the "Identify a spell effect already in place" function of spellcraft, which has a DC of 20+level.

[Crake]

if the spell does no damage to good people, thats pretty obvious

spellcasters know if a victim passes or fails a save against targetted spells (of which slow is one)

characters with spellcraft can identify spells based on their visual effects with a DC20+spell level spellcraft check

[jiriku]

Since Slow is a targeted spell you'd know if the enemy succeeded on his save.

As for Holy Smite and similar alingment-based spells you should certainly be able to tell that your spell did no damage, if not exactly why.

For your third question, you get a chance to identify a spell as it's being cast at DC 15+level. Contingency doesn't really cast spells, it just brings a precast spell into effect. There are no components, so you'd have to use the "Identify a spell effect already in place" function of spellcraft, which has a DC of 20+level.

+1

Also, while D&D combat operates in a turn-based manner, character perceptions are in "real-time" within the game. This means that if you successfully cast slow on someone, you immediately see them moving slower, even though it is not their turn. The turn mechanic is an abstract representation of fluid, continuous action, and people don't actually stop and stand still every six seconds in combat to wait for others to act.

[awa]

I might allow a character who identified your spell with spell craft (or some other means) to use bluff to fake a result but under-normal circumstances everyone should probably be able to see if the spell did something or not. For the holy smite example i would expect some one who made the save to show signs of strain as they resist the magic compared to someone who is completely unfazed by it.

[gibbo88]

The visual saves from stuff like fireball have always confused me. Passing the regular save for half damage made sense, I jjst assumed you huddled in and turned your back on the epicenter. Gets a bit murky for me when evasion comes into play.

[Dalebert]

It's really up to you but I tend to err on the side of telling the party a little bit more just to avoid tedium. For instance, a DM I play under is known to not tell us the AC of our opponents. Eventually we narrow it down. A 19 hit but a 17 didn't. Eventually someone rolls an 18. It's not game-breaking for the party to know and it's not exactly all that weird. I just tell them-- "You're trying to hit a 17 AC." They can get a feel pretty quickly how well defended a mob is.

By the same reasoning, I'd be inclined to tell them if someone successfully saved against a spell or not. Again, it's just about avoiding tedium. In fact, I've already decided I'm going to give this alternative dice-rolling a try, and that requires telling the players a bit more info up front--

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

[jedipotter]

I don't think there is a rule that says ''characters always absolutely know if a target made the save vs. a spell the character cast'', but I would not be to surprised to find that rule is somewhere.

In a general, more descriptive sense you can tell if someone makes a save as they ''toss off the spell'' effect. The player can make a spellcraft roll to find out why, if they really want to know the ''why''. The rules don't really say how much information the players get ''for free'', so it is the DM's call. Some DM's tell very little(like me) and some Dms just tell the players everything. For example, for the Smite, i would have just said it has no effect as they are not evil.

It's not so bad to just say ''they make the save'' OOC. It does speed up the game


By RAW you can't identity the spells in a contingency as you did not see them cast. But you could always make it a DC 30-40 'Strange magic roll' for them to identify such a spell.

[Stella]

It's not so bad to just say ''they make the save'' OOC. It does speed up the game
In the case given, Holy Smite cast where none of the creatures in the area is neutral or evil, saying this would be misleading to the players. Good creatures are simply not effected, they make no saving throw against the spell at all.

It also contradicts the RAW which states "You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."

Wounds are visible, however, and a damaging spell should inflict some visible damage. Seeing that none of the opponents shows any new wounds is something which can be described to the players.

[Sir Garanok]

Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.-20 + spell level

What effects does a spell stored in contigency have?I'd say none so unless it gets triggered i would require more than 20+level or detect magic

[SVamp]

My 2 cents:

Tell the cleric to roll both dice. Then tally the damage for both, give it a pensive look as if you're doing math in your head, and then announce the enemy apparently ignores the damage.

There is no reason for them to know why the enemy ignored the damage, much less their alignment. They could be under the direct divine protection of a god, possess an artifact, whatever. Your damage spells are not divination tools, don't let them become that.

As for the question of slow, an easy spot check modified by how chaotic and how pressed the caster is (is he being fired upon, etc etc) should yield "you notice that the enemy does not appear to slowdown". Skip the spot check I you like, but don't tell them why it failed.

Again, don't tell them WHY. They could have an item making them immune, etc etc.

Lastly, the contingency, it's already been cast, so make it a very hard spell craft check as was mentioned.

Just my 2 cents.

[nedz]

So I have a few questions sorta around the same core idea. What do players get to know based off their spells? The other night the group that I DM for were in the middle of a fight when the cleric cast smite evil. What the party did not know was that the group they were fighting were actually good. When the cleric asked me which dice to role versus evil or neutral for damage I told him none, because they were good. Was this something the cleric would know from his spell?
It the Cleric wants to know their alignment then there are various divination spells they can cast in order to do that: Smite Evil is not one of those. After the fact the Cleric may be able to work out that the enemy were unaffected by the spell but not the reason why, though even this is not a given.

I guess from that question do they get to know when any of their spells fail? For example if they cast slow and my bad guy beats the save, do I tell them that, or should they just figure it out on his next turn when he continues to move at full speed?
Depends how easy you want to make the game really. I wouldn't tell them at all, though they should be able to work out if someone is slowed quite easily.

Lastly when my bad guy has contingency on themselves, say to cast flame shield or mage armor or anything, and it goes off, do the PCs get a chance to roll to see if they know the spells going off?

20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
This wouldn't tell them it was because of a contingency, also some spells have no discernible effect. It's easy if they see it being cast of course.