Lair and Regional Effects (And other MM content discussion)

[Jacob.Tyr]

So, the big thing that strikes me about the MM is the impact lair actions seem to have in making fights really seem epic. Regional effects, too, at least in the case of Dragons are really awesome. The flavor and tactical angles make these creatures into more than just an opponent, and this setup screams Boss Fight. I really look forward to playing with it in Homebrewing monsters, and I can't wait to see how it changes the tactics of the game.

However, in the case of Dragons, with each color getting their own list of lair actions, and probably a few other cases, the MM doesn't seem to give direction on how this should modify challenge rating and XP. The entry for Lich is pretty straightforward, giving the CR bump and new XP of a Lich in his lair vs outside of it.

Since Dragons get lair actions based on color, without regard to CR (Age) of the dragon, this seems... really bad? Throwing your players against an Ancient Dragon in its lair is meh, but at low levels fighting a young or wyrmling is going to go from possibly challenging to downright TPK if you're in the lair or not.

E.G.
Green Dragon Lair Actions (Can do one per round on Initiative count 20):
* 20' radius, 120' range, area becomes difficult terrain, DC 15 strength vs being restrained.
* 60' long, 10' high, 5' thick wall of thorns pops up. Creatures in the area make DC 15 vs 4d8 piercing.
* DC 15 wisdom vs charm by the dragon for 1 round.

This same list of actions seems to be given to both a Wyrmling in its lair, CR 2, and an Ancient Dragon, CR 22.

So... should smaller dragons even have lairs? How much do you think those lair actions would add to the CR of a wyrmling, young, Adult, or Ancient?

[FadeAssassin]

I don't think wyrmlings or maybe even young dragons are supposed to have lairs. (Although wyrmlings are still probably with their parents, but i don't think they could do lair actions) Young dragons, if they are off on their own and have a lair, I would say they haven't come into control of their layer like an adult or Ancient Dragon has.

[Dindras]

Now, I haven't read the MM yet so I'm not sure how accurate this is but I thought only legendary creatures get Lair Actions? So wouldn't ancient wyrms be the only ones to gain dragon Lair Actions? Or are more dragons than just Ancient Wyrms legendary creatures?

An young dragon, wyrmling, etc aren't really "Legendary" so they wouldn't have created a lair to control yet.

::EDIT::
Just found a page on dragons, and adult dragons are also legendary. So I would still say that only adult(CR17) and ancient(CR24) can gain the benefit of lair actions as they're old enough to start affecting the environment from their presence.

[Greylind]

Now, I haven't read the MM yet so I'm not sure how accurate this is but I thought only legendary creatures get Lair Actions? So wouldn't ancient wyrms be the only ones to gain dragon Lair Actions? Or are more dragons than just Ancient Wyrms legendary creatures?

An adult dragon, wyrmling, etc aren't really "Legendary" so they wouldn't have created a lair to control yet.

The Adult Red Dragon in the DM Basic Rules is Legendary.

[Jacob.Tyr]

The Adult Red Dragon in the DM Basic Rules is Legendary.

Adults do all seem to be Legendary. I missed the part in the opening rules that Lair actions were reserved for Legendary creatures. So what about the Lich is so special that his CR and XP boost is spelled out for when in his Lair, but other creatures don't get such a listing?

Edit:
Creatures with the listing-
Lich, Demilich, Death Tyrant

[TheDeadlyShoe]

it makes sense with dragons IMO, since they will probably fight to the death to protect their hoard but outside their lair they'll just be ****heads and fly around/away.

[Jacob.Tyr]

it makes sense with dragons IMO, since they will probably fight to the death to protect their hoard but outside their lair they'll just be ****heads and fly around/away.
Heh, basically no boost needed as a dragon wouldn't risk anything outside of their lair anyway? This follows with Sphinxes is the MM as well, since they don't get a boost but are just guardians.

Mummy Lords and Demi-Liches might be the oddballs then, though, being pretty heavily locked into one place and still having a boost for being in their lair. I guess I mostly just looked at Lich and Dragon in the MM when I got confused by this.

Now that I've reskimmed the whole thing again, WHY ARE FUNGI PLANTS?

[Dindras]

Now that I've reskimmed the whole thing again, WHY ARE FUNGI PLANTS?

Well, what else would you make fungus monsters be? Mushrooms are part of the natural world.

[SaintRidley]

I think once the MM is out and maybe once we get a book for psionics I'll start putting together an Elder Brain. I think those should have some nice lair actions (bud brain golem, for instance), as well as the potential for regional effects.



Now that I've reskimmed the whole thing again, WHY ARE FUNGI PLANTS?

Simplicity. Also because back in the day fungi were once classified as plants.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Well, what else would you make fungus monsters be? Mushrooms are part of the natural world.
Well, at least keeping them as Opisthokonts would be nice for a start. If we can't label them as "Fungi", calling 'em Beasts or Humanoids or whatever is at least way more accurate than plant.

[Sartharina]

Well, at least keeping them as Opisthokonts would be nice for a start. If we can't label them as "Fungi", calling 'em Beasts or Humanoids or whatever is at least way more accurate than plant.

I'm sorry, but fungi are still inanimate large overgrown things.

[squashmaster]

I wouldn't use lair or regional effects with any monster that didn't have legendary action features, and probably not some of those either. Lich/demilich, ancient dragons, only the biggest of the baddest get lair or regional effects. imho

[Freelance GM]

I guess the distinction for the Lich sort of makes sense.

Liches, antisocial as they are, probably would be a bit less comfortable (and weaker) outside of their lair.

As for mummies?

...I got nothing.

And come on. Do Demiliches ever leave their lairs?

[Beleriphon]

Well, at least keeping them as Opisthokonts would be nice for a start. If we can't label them as "Fungi", calling 'em Beasts or Humanoids or whatever is at least way more accurate than plant.

Keeping mind that the rules for plant monsters are shared between actual plants and things that are treated as "plants" in the rules.

[Townopolis]

Perhaps I'm just projecting my own thoughts onto the MM, but aren't dragons pretty fast flyers? I would figure the benefits of their lairs is just innately factored into their CR because encountering them outside their lair will amount to nothing more than a few breath weapon flybys followed by the dragon flying off the moment they realize they're in danger; the lair is the only place you'll actually get a dragon to stand and fight. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most dragons end up being nastier fights outside their lairs due to the advantages of being able to outmaneuver their opponents.

(Actually, I looked up the adult red dragon, and their fly speed is slower than I expected--only about 20mph and 20' faster than PCs with Fly.)

[Jacob.Tyr]

Keeping mind that the rules for plant monsters are shared between actual plants and things that are treated as "plants" in the rules.
On Type: "The game includes the following monster types, which have no rules of their own".

Type doesn't seem to actually induce any rules on monsters with that type, which is weird. Types don't have a HD, immunities, saves etc. I guess if Fungi were Beasts you could have one as a companion, or wildshape into one.



I guess the distinction for the Lich sort of makes sense.

Liches, antisocial as they are, probably would be a bit less comfortable (and weaker) outside of their lair.

As for mummies?

...I got nothing.

And come on. Do Demiliches ever leave their lairs?

I don't actually think Demiliches can leave their lairs. By the Fluff they're just skulls that sit on the ground and don't do anything, unless someone enters their tomb they're completely inert. Then they're only active until they've killed whatever woke them up. I guess if you want to try and play football with one, and run it topside to fight it there you might need to know how that is... easier than fighting it in the tomb.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Perhaps I'm just projecting my own thoughts onto the MM, but aren't dragons pretty fast flyers? I would figure the benefits of their lairs is just innately factored into their CR because encountering them outside their lair will amount to nothing more than a few breath weapon flybys followed by the dragon flying off the moment they realize they're in danger; the lair is the only place you'll actually get a dragon to stand and fight. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most dragons end up being nastier fights outside their lairs due to the advantages of being able to outmaneuver their opponents.

(Actually, I looked up the adult red dragon, and their fly speed is slower than I expected--only about 20mph and 20' faster than PCs with Fly.)

Your red dragons don't live down inside active volcanoes with an open top they can fly around in? Opening to a random dragon, Brass Dragon Lairs tend to be canyons. Green explicitly make their lairs in forests that act as living barriers, whites "love vertical heights" they can fly around while in their lairs.

[MrUberGr]

heh, I find this a very funny thing! I've done it myself a few times!

"Conversation about young dragons having lair actions" -perfectly normal

"Mushrooms are underplants" -OMG WHAT A BUNCH OF BALLONEY!

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

It's probably there because in a dragon's lair, i.e. a cave, it's more likely for lichen, moss, and fungi to be growing, than bushes or grass. And, it's easier to simply say "plants", rather than "moss, shrooms, etc etc".

P.S. I have no idea in what context this exists, so I just made up an explanation based on the lairs.

[rlc]

pretty sure the context is different

[Greylind]

And come on. Do Demiliches ever leave their lairs?

Anyone else picture a demilich going shopping? "Hi, I need some new décor for my lair, something that represents me and really ties the place together. Hey, what's with the stone demon face wall-hanging? Is that a globe of absolute darkness in its mouth? Can I get one of those, and the giant skeleton-in-a-box, shipped please?"

I think Lair and Regional effects will be of great use in setting up an effective atmosphere for the end of a campaign sequence, an in-world warning that you are approaching the Final Boss of this stage of the campaign.

[Malifice]

Anyone else picture a demilich going shopping? "Hi, I need some new décor for my lair, something that represents me and really ties the place together. Hey, what's with the stone demon face wall-hanging? Is that a globe of absolute darkness in its mouth? Can I get one of those, and the giant skeleton-in-a-box, shipped please?"
.

Certainly sir, would you like that delivered to your lair for you?

(Demilich looks awkwardly at where its arms used to be). 'Err... yes... thank you...'