able learner vs truename training

[daremetoidareyo]

Does able learner feat allow one to take skill levels in true name training?

Able learner:
Prerequisite
Human or doppelganger,
Benefit
All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same. This feat does not affect the skill point cost to learn a language or to gain literacy (for a barbarian or other illiterate character).
Special
This feat may only be taken at 1st level.

Truename training:
=Unlike most of your peers, you have discovered the secret power of truenames.
Benefit: The Truespeak skill is considered a class skill for you, no matter what class you actually choose. If you purchased ranks in Truespeak as a cross-class skill, you immediately gain additional ranks in Truespeak as if it had always been a class skill for you.
Normal: The Truespeak skill is a class skill only for truenamers.


Also: Does an Azurin count as human for purposes of human only feats?
"Humanoid (Human): Azurins are of human descent and are affected by spells and the like as if they were purely human."

[sideswipe]

yes. but you are still only limited to half ranks in cross class skills

[Zaydos]

Commoner 20 can spend 23 skill points to get 11.5 skill ranks of Truespeak.

Commoner 20 with Able Learner can spend 11 skill points to get 11 skill ranks of Truespeak.

Commoner 20 with Truename Training can spend 23 skill points to get 23 skill ranks of Truespeak.

Does that help?

In other words you can take ranks in Truespeak without Truename Training, but it's cross-classed and it's capped at (Level+3)/2 with each rank costing 2 skill points. With Able Learner it's still capped at (Level+3)/2 but each rank costs 1 skill point, unless you have a level of Factotum or Truenamer in which case the cap is Level+3. With Truename Training it's capped at Level+3 ranks and costs 1 point/rank.

[Fax Celestis]

What? The two are unrelated. You are always capable of cross classing into Truespeech. Truename Training makes it a class skill for all your classes, while Able Learner makes it so when you buy cross class ranks they only cost one point instead of two. If you have Able Learner, you buy Truespeech ranks at a 1:1 rate but still have the crossclass rank cap. If you later take Truename Training, your cap increases to full and recalculates based upon your actual expenditure. So, weirdly, if you're planning on taking Truename Training, you don't want to take Able Learner because you won't get the bonus from shifting your half ranks to full ranks (since you'll have only spent whole ranks).

Let me put it this way: a human has Able Learner at first, buys full ranks in Truespeech up to sixth level, when they take Truename Training. They've spent 4 ranks so far to keep it capped, which Truename Training recalculates to...four ranks, but ups the cap to nine.

If our exemplary human didn't have Able Learner but still spent cross class points to keep the skill capped, they'd have spent nine points in total, for a 4.5 rank. Truename Training would then recalculate this, making those cross class ranks into class ranks, and our human would jump up to nine ranks in Truespeech.

It's a very strange case.

[Chronos]

Truename Training also has the benefit of retroactively increasing any skill ranks you bought cross-class. So if a commoner 17 with 10 ranks takes Truename Training as his 18th-level feat, he'll suddenly have 20 ranks (plus possibly one more from that level's skill point).

[Troacctid]

And yes, Azurins count as Human.

[Fax Celestis]

The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that Able Learner is actually a pretty bad feat. All it does, if you're not crossclassing skills for prerequisites that you're then going to forget about, is move when you spend your ranks, not actually alter them at all. Yes it has its uses (such as the mentioned crossclass for prerequisites), but it's not really all that useful for anyone who's planning on being a skill-based character.

[Troacctid]

The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that Able Learner is actually a pretty bad feat. All it does, if you're not crossclassing skills for prerequisites that you're then going to forget about, is move when you spend your ranks, not actually alter them at all. Yes it has its uses (such as the mentioned crossclass for prerequisites), but it's not really all that useful for anyone who's planning on being a skill-based character.

Able Learner effectively doubles your skill points if you're spending them in cross-class skills. I'd say that alters them quite a lot.

[Greenish]

The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that Able Learner is actually a pretty bad feat. All it does, if you're not crossclassing skills for prerequisites that you're then going to forget about, is move when you spend your ranks, not actually alter them at all. Yes it has its uses (such as the mentioned crossclass for prerequisites), but it's not really all that useful for anyone who's planning on being a skill-based character.Well, if you're making a short dip into a class, and want to keep up some of the skills of said class even when taking levels in other classes, it's handy.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, if you're making a short dip into a class, and want to keep up some of the skills of said class even when taking levels in other classes, it's handy.

Not really? The cap doesn't change, so if you max hide, for instance, the dip into a class without it, you can't spend ANY ranks on it until the crossclass cap is above your current ranks. Which basically means the feat can't do anything for several levels anyway.

Like I said: the only thing it's really good for is crossclass prereqs you have no intention of actually filling out. If you want a skill that's not going to be on your list for your entire career, you should put it on your list via Aereni Focus, Skill Knowledge, Apprentice, Draconic Heritage, Martial Study, Initiate feats, City Slicker, dragonblooded races, Ecclesiarch, Educated, cleric domains, Versatile, Cosmopolitan, Skilled City-Dweller, or numerous other options.

[sideswipe]

Not really? The cap doesn't change, so if you max hide, for instance, the dip into a class without it, you can't spend ANY ranks on it until the crossclass cap is above your current ranks. Which basically means the feat can't do anything for several levels anyway.

Like I said: the only thing it's really good for is crossclass prereqs you have no intention of actually filling out. If you want a skill that's not going to be on your list for your entire career, you should put it on your list via Aereni Focus, Skill Knowledge, Apprentice, Draconic Heritage, Martial Study, Initiate feats, City Slicker, dragonblooded races, Ecclesiarch, Educated, cleric domains, Versatile, Cosmopolitan, Skilled City-Dweller, or numerous other options.

it synergises well with factotum, all skill caps at hd+3 and always 1 point.

[Troacctid]

The cross-class skill cap is lifted as soon as at least one of your classes has it as a class skill.


Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3.

[Fax Celestis]

it synergises well with factotum, all skill caps at hd+3 and always 1 point.

Sure, the factotum dip is cool, but not everyone wants to do that.

[Fax Celestis]

The cross-class skill cap is lifted as soon as at least one of your classes has it as a class skill.

Yeah I just went back and checked. So okay, it's good if you want to keep a skill after you class out, but unless you're doing that with a bunch of skills you're still better off with something like Aereni Focus or Skill Knowledge, since you can take it after 1st level.

[Greenish]

Not really? The cap doesn't change, so if you max hide, for instance, the dip into a class without it, you can't spend ANY ranks on it until the crossclass cap is above your current ranks. Which basically means the feat can't do anything for several levels anyway.I don't understand what you mean.

[Fax Celestis]

I don't understand what you mean.

Never mind, I was thinking of losing a skill, not classing into a class that doesn't have it. See above.

I still think it's a pretty terrible feat barring specific circumstances.

[Troacctid]

Yeah I just went back and checked. So okay, it's good if you want to keep a skill after you class out, but unless you're doing that with a bunch of skills you're still better off with something like Aereni Focus or Skill Knowledge, since you can take it after 1st level.

Aereni Focus is an Elf-only Eberron regional feat that must be taken at 1st level and only gives one class skill. Skill Knowledge is intended for use with a variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm) and only gives one class skill.

[Fax Celestis]

Aereni Focus is an Elf-only Eberron regional feat that must be taken at 1st level and only gives one class skill. Skill Knowledge is intended for use with a variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm) and only gives one class skill.

Aereni Focus also gives you a +3 bonus on using that skill. As I stated: if you are only using it for one (or two, in the case of Versatile, or Knowledges, in the case of Educated, etc. etc. etc.), it is better to go with another feat. City-Slicker and Apprentice add multiple skills (and give you fringe benefits, in the case of Apprentice). So do Educated and Cosmopolitan. Skilled City-Dweller lets you trade a bunch of skills for no feat cost. Some domains and races also give class skills and those also come with little to no opportunity cost.

[Greenish]

I still think it's a pretty terrible feat barring specific circumstances.Yeah, it's not something you'd want in any, or even most, builds, but it's worthwhile enough in some instances. I've used it for feat rogue2/warblade pirate, for example.

The advantage it has over Aereni Focus (which is also 1st level only) is that Aereni Focus requires you to be an aerenal elf, and if you are an aerenal elf, you could have been a valenar elf, and have thus missed your opportunity.

Skill Knowledge is cool, but it's also part of alternative skill system rules.