L5R - Rokugan Society Help?

[dartanous]

So, I am fairly new to Legend of Five Rings, and while I love pretty much everything about it, there are some questions that I feel the book doesn't answer, or at least my stupid face can't find it. I am hoping that I might find answers here.

1) First off, how does families & clans work? If you choose to be in the crab clan, and you choose the Hida family, do you have to take the Hida Bushi School? Or can you cate any Crab family and combine with any crab school? (substituting Crab for another great clan if wanted to, of course)

2) This is a big question I have, and that is, how exactly does families work? Believe it or not, it is somewhat different from my first question. Does 'family' actually mean a connection by blood? that they are actual family members? Like everyone in the Hida family in the crab clan are brothers/sisters/parents of some sort?

3) How many members usually compose a: 3.1) Great Clan. 3.2) Great Clan Family. 3.3) Great Clan School. I can't find that anywhere. The way I see it is that they have several provinces each, so it should be alot of people, but then, can they actually be real familiy members (as per my second question). And I assume that a great clan school might have a bunch of dojos, rather than just one really big one somewhere, but how does that work for the family, is it split up between provinces & dojos?

It's confusing for me even to write this down, I am doing a horrible job at it.

4) On to minor clans, since they are smaller, are they actually family members there? I don't know if they compose of a dozen or a thousand or what. And would the family & school dilemma I posted earlier have the same principles for a minor clan?

5) How much of the clan samurai actually composes the empire's army? I assume that ashigaru might make up the bulk of the army, but I can't actually find that anywhere.

So... Thanks in advance, and if I do come up with more questions I might just post them here and hope for the best:)

[sktarq]

1) First off, how does families & clans work? ... Or can you cate any Crab family and combine with any crab school? In theory yeah...Kinda up to your storyteller more than anything on what degree of cross training they want to have. A Kitsu who can't talk to spirits may well be encouraged to train with the Akodo and could be a nifty PC but your ST may find it problematic...Even cross Clan training is mentioned via the use of hostages and the norm that such hostages should be treated well...even to the point of training them (but not letting them beyond your control)....The amount of all that seemed vague though.


2) This is a big question I have,...brothers/sisters/parents of some sort? Well...There is a family at the centre of each of these families that are blood related. Those people lead the families. Most of "family" are various samurai class people who are sworn to that family. They use the family name (only only that name) in dealing with outsiders. A fair number may have some distant blood relation to the actual bloodline as lower ranking children's decedents eventually drop out of the central family unit in status. Now many of these people who are sworn to the, say Hida, are children of those who swore to the Hida themselves and so for the last 500 years so are culturally very much of the Hida and help to define what that means as much as those who have the Blood of the Strongest Thunder in the veins.


3) How many members usually compose a: 3.1) Great Clan. 3.2) Great Clan Family. 3.3) Great Clan School. I can't find that anywhere....rather than just one really big one somewhere, but how does that work for the family, is it split up between provinces & dojos? floating around I've seen a few numbers. Most of the great clans mention between 1.5-3 million peasants and 100K-300K members of samurai caste. If you have 3-5 major families per great clan...easy enough. Schools I'm not so sure. Now also remember that only a minority of the caste would go to those schools. The Empire needs administrators too. and Judges and well you get the idea.


4) On to minor clans, since they are smaller, ... principles for a minor clan? A minor clan can logistically be summarized as an independent family.... not exactly but it is a good place to start and works for most things. Culturally/Legally/Spiritually is another story. Possibly fewer other families sworn to them.


5) How much of the clan samurai .... but I can't actually find that anywhere. Probably varies on an as you (the DM) need basis as I don't see it either (but don't have all the books). They would make up most of the officer corps and a fair number of specialist troops (heavy cav, "special forces", magical/spiritual support, scout insertion teams, etc.) But probably higher than in the general population (which runs around 10% so perhaps 20%?) I think there is a book just for the army that could help you on this.

[BWR]

So, I am fairly new to Legend of Five Rings, and while I love pretty much everything about it, there are some questions that I feel the book doesn't answer, or at least my stupid face can't find it. I am hoping that I might find answers here.

1) First off, how does families & clans work? If you choose to be in the crab clan, and you choose the Hida family, do you have to take the Hida Bushi School? Or can you cate any Crab family and combine with any crab school? (substituting Crab for another great clan if wanted to, of course)

2) This is a big question I have, and that is, how exactly does families work? Believe it or not, it is somewhat different from my first question. Does 'family' actually mean a connection by blood? that they are actual family members? Like everyone in the Hida family in the crab clan are brothers/sisters/parents of some sort?

3) How many members usually compose a: 3.1) Great Clan. 3.2) Great Clan Family. 3.3) Great Clan School. I can't find that anywhere. The way I see it is that they have several provinces each, so it should be alot of people, but then, can they actually be real familiy members (as per my second question). And I assume that a great clan school might have a bunch of dojos, rather than just one really big one somewhere, but how does that work for the family, is it split up between provinces & dojos?

It's confusing for me even to write this down, I am doing a horrible job at it.

4) On to minor clans, since they are smaller, are they actually family members there? I don't know if they compose of a dozen or a thousand or what. And would the family & school dilemma I posted earlier have the same principles for a minor clan?

5) How much of the clan samurai actually composes the empire's army? I assume that ashigaru might make up the bulk of the army, but I can't actually find that anywhere.

So... Thanks in advance, and if I do come up with more questions I might just post them here and hope for the best:)

1. In general, you choose a school with your family's name in it, but not always. not all members of shugenja or courtier families are shugenja or courtiers, and most train in their clan's primary bushi school. A Hida with the gift of the kami would likely be trained in the Kuni shugenja school (it's happened before, e.g. Hida Rohiteki and Hida Kozan (the second, not the Damned berserker). With the Different School advantage you can be trained in the school of another clan - a Hida could train with the Shinjo (like Hida Kuroda). If you start out with one school but want to train in another, even out of clan, you have the Multiple Schools advantage.

2. Family is like a mini clan. There are lots of bloodlines within the biggest families, not so many in the smaller ones. There is a certain amount of blood relation but most (excepting the Kitsu) take care not to inbreed. If two people from different families marry, one marries into the other and takes that name. Usually, the one with the lower status marries into the family of the higher status partner e,g. if Hida X Status 1 married Doji Y status 2, X would would now be Doji X. In general, the genetic pool is large enough that inbreeding isn't a problem and any familial relationship which might exist is sufficiently ancient that people don't really count it.

3. The exact numbers vary from edition to edition, from war to war. In 1e there was Yakamo's famous "twenty million drown in blood if I am weak". For the most part, the exact numbers aren't interesting and won't come up. As long as you know roughly which clans ahnd families are the biggest, you're fine. A school is a particular set of techniques, usually taught at numerous dojo throughout the appropriate lands. Very small schools may have only a single dojo, while the biggest (great clan bushi school like the Hida and the Matsu) are all over the place. Most schools have one or two dojo that are most prestigious, like the Sunda Mizu dojo for the Hida bushi school or the Far Runner dojo for the Hiruma scout school.

4. All minor clans have families. Some even have more than one (like the Hare). Now they all even have family names - being granted a family name is agreat honor. The Badger clan has the Ichiro family name, and the Sparrow have the Suzume name, for instance. Since MCs are minor and generally have poor resources they generally have only a single school and nearly all members train there. Officially, minor clans with a shugenja school don't have a bushi school and are forced to either take ronin techniques or curry favor with great clans to allow their bushi to train there. IMC, all clans have their own bushi school, even shugenja focused MCs. MCs without a proper shugenja tradition have to have ronin shugenja or send them to train with the great clans.

5. Like the numbers of citizens, the numbers of military personnel changes from edition to edition. In 1e IIRC it was "Way of the Dragon" that listed numbers. In 3e it was "Masters of War". Fort the most part, I believe they only count samurai. Like most other stuff, relative size is more important than hard numbers. The Matsu are famous for the largest standing army, while the Crab have the most experienced warriors (They have 5 armies, the three toughest are on constant Wall patrol. The fourth is home defense. the fifth, the reserve, the smallest army, is what they send to pound on Crane and Scorpion and make life difficult for their entire armies)

[Terraoblivion]

Building off the answers to question three, it's also important to keep in mind that families vary greatly in size. The Matsu and Hida are the two largest families in the empire each most likely numbering tens of thousands of people or even breaking a hundred thousand, though exact numbers aren't clear. On the other hand while the Horiuchi family existed it never managed more than a couple dozen members. Numbers aren't exact and the relative sizes of families are often unclear, but in general bushi families are the largest and shugenja families the smallest and most of the exceptions are individual bushi families that are small. The two most notable exceptions are that the Isawa and Doji are the largest families of their respective clans despite being a shugenja and courtier family respectively. But in general, unless a family is described as small, you should probably think of it as having thousands of members and lots of members who don't know each other.

[Brother Oni]

A minor comment on the all family are blood related thing: Rokugani culture goes in for adult adoption, so a very promising individual may become a member of a great family without actually being blood related. In earlier editions, when low on recruits, the Crab occasionally do a 'Twenty Goblin Winter' where anybody who brings in 20 goblin heads from the Shadowlands gets adopted into a Crab vassal family, no questions asked.

Building on earlier answers, a great family is a massive extended family, so it's more lots and lots of cousins of varying degrees. A minor Clan family may be a single line with parents and children only.

Vassal families serves one of the great families, usually in a particular role. The L5R wiki has a good list of all the vassal families, with some details regarding how they became important enough to become a vassal family (link (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Vassal_family)) and in particular the etiquette involved with this (depending on how familiar your GM is with the customs, they may gloss over it or be right royal pains with it).

[dartanous]

Thank you all for your answers. I have one more question, and one statement I wonder if it's true.

Statement: A family of a great clan is composed of alot of members, but only a small amount of it is actually in a direct bloodline with eachother. A family can adopt samurai into their ranks, giving the samurai the family name to use, and then that samurai's children will also be of the same family. So the core family members is a very small part of a family (probably the highest ranking members), their distant relatives comes next, and then all the adoptive members? Also, are every non-bloodrelated member of a family adopted or the offspring of someone adopted? Or is there other ways of entering, or is it that if you have their name, you are officially adopted?

Question: Where does daimyos factor into rokugan? Is a daimyo the head master of a clan / family? Or are there non-clan daimyos, or maybe both? And are daimyos basically the same as their real life feudal counterparts?

[Terraoblivion]

Almost all members of a given family is born to parents who also have the family name. Also, the books make it sound less like you're adopted into the family when you swear family than simply like the family name is the name of those who have sworn fealty to the ruling line of the family. If a ronin swears fealty, he doesn't get to call any previous members of the family he swears fealty to his brothers or sisters and he doesn't get to trace his ancestry down any line of the family, nor does he get in line for any inheritance. It's probably better to think of the families as political and social entities than families as such, which is important in a society where ancestry and inheritance is essential for both identity and power.

As for daimyo, the term covers a few different things in Rokugan. More specifically, the governor of a province, a position that is overwhelmingly hereditary though treason, gross incompetence or a line dying out can change that, and the head of a great clan family that isn't the ruling one. The ruling family of a clan, whether great or minor, is led by the clan champion who is, of course, technically also the family daimyo, but that position is subsumed by the greater one. Non-clan daimyo are possible as the imperial families do rule territories, but ronin don't get to become daimyo without a clause telling them to swear fealty first, often including who to swear fealty to. And even that is incredibly rare, because somebody who gets to amass that amount of power without already having been claimed by a clan is almost certainly some form of bandit chief, rebel or otherwise outside the proper hierarchy of the clans. This does raise the question of who the hell runs the unaligned territories, but my reading of things is that it's usually either wild, uninhabited territories, sacred territories under religious authority or contested territories formally run by clan members reporting to the imperial bureaucracy rather than their clan. But it's really not something the books spend much time on or make very clear.

[LibraryOgre]

Almost all members of a given family is born to parents who also have the family name. Also, the books make it sound less like you're adopted into the family when you swear family than simply like the family name is the name of those who have sworn fealty to the ruling line of the family. If a ronin swears fealty, he doesn't get to call any previous members of the family he swears fealty to his brothers or sisters and he doesn't get to trace his ancestry down any line of the family, nor does he get in line for any inheritance. It's probably better to think of the families as political and social entities than families as such, which is important in a society where ancestry and inheritance is essential for both identity and power.

Although, I'll also add that such a ronin would, if feasible, marry into the clan family as soon as is reasonable (either him/herself, or his/her children), ensuring that future generations are actual family members, if cadet branches far from the trunk.

[Terraoblivion]

Yes, that's true. I should have mentioned that as well. Although, somebody with a shady past, no ancestors that can be mentioned in polite society and who brings nothing material to the table might have trouble getting married even after being accepted. Most ronin who finally get to swear fealty aren't the kind of grand hero you want to be associated with, they were just someone who had given loyal service for a long time and proven themselves competent.

Also, now that we're at it. Sometimes service as an ashigaru can make a heimin stand out so much that they're allowed to swear fealty and become samurai. It's not something you talk about too much in polite society, but it does happen. Even if you're not called Toku and get crazy plot giving you your own clan.

[dartanous]

I was under the impression that any province not under the control of a great clan was under the control of the emperor. And any province in control of a great clan is borrowing or renting the land from the emperor, paying land taxes to him?

So, a great clan have several provinces, and they have a daimyo for each province? Probably some of the highest ranking members of the great clan? But Not the ruling one? Why is that? And I assume any province in an clan-free province is run by a daimyo assigned by the emperor? If the province in question is habitable, of course.

[Terraoblivion]

Each great clan has a number of provinces. If I were to poke around on the L5R wiki for long enough, I could probably find a full list of provinces in the empire, but the important thing to know is that each clan has a number. At least each great clan, the minor clans probably only have one each.

And while the emperor technically owns all land, he doesn't really have much control over it beyond the right to demand taxes. The clans are almost completely autonomous in terms of daily management. Most aligned territories are not part of any province and settling there is illegal for one reason or another. The Dragonheart Plain is banned on account of holding a horrible demonic entity and the Phoenix killing anybody who messes around it too much just to be safe, for example.

[dartanous]

One quick question; you said that a daimyo can be the head of a great clan that isn't the ruling one. What exactly do you mean by that?

[Terraoblivion]

A great clan family. The head of the Doji is the Crane clan champion, the head of the Kakita is the Kakita family daimyo. Basically, the head of a clan is called a clan champion, the heads of other families within a clan are called family daimyo.

[sktarq]

daimyo lead large politically important groups of people. These group can be defined on a geographic basis or a social one (the major named families). Further titles, namely clan champion, can be applied and take precedence over the title of daimyo. Minor clans being led by Daimyo seems pretty standard but I'm not sure if that's true in every edition.

[Terraoblivion]

I've only seen the heads of minor clans called clan champions. Maybe it was different in the past, but for the last six or so years that has been the accepted terminology in both the RP and the CCG.

[BWR]

The ruling family of a clan, whether great or minor, is led by the clan champion who is, of course, technically also the family daimyo, but that position is subsumed by the greater one.
Nitpick: almost always. The Matsu have been known for having the family daimyo be different than the clan champion. E.g. Matsu Nimuro as champ with Matsu Ketsui as Matsu daimyo


I've only seen the heads of minor clans called clan champions. Maybe it was different in the past, but for the last six or so years that has been the accepted terminology in both the RP and the CCG.
'Daimyo' was sometimes used as 'champion' in 1e, for great and minor clans both. Fortunately they cleared that up in later years.

[Brother Oni]

Yes, that's true. I should have mentioned that as well. Although, somebody with a shady past, no ancestors that can be mentioned in polite society and who brings nothing material to the table might have trouble getting married even after being accepted.

To expand on Terroblivion's point a bit, marriage is very political, thus are mainly arranged. A former ronin has no political influence and minimal assets, is therefore not a good match for a prospective father in law looking to advance his (immediate) family's position.

Hardly anybody marries for love and usually such tales end in tragedy (making them very popular stories in Rokugan).

Illegitimate children tend to be a bit of a grey area, especially if they haven't been officially recognised by their parents. The most famous one I can think of is Kaneka, as when he claimed his lineage, it would have put him as the eldest son of the deceased Emperor, thus the primary heir.



Even if you're not called Toku and get crazy plot giving you your own clan.

Hey, you have to get some usage out of the Great Destiny Advantage. :smalltongue:

[Saladman]

It may help to know "daimyo" is a Japanese word simply meaning "lord." L5R puts its own spin on that, but that was where they got it from. So clan and family daimyos are the main use of it, but provincial governors also get to claim the title. I think its at the city level that governors cease being called daimyo and start being called governor.

There are some positions a samurai can achieve that have as much or more authority as a lesser daimyo, but won't carry the title of daimyo. A Jade or Emerald Magistrate is a high status appointment, but he'd be addressed as Magistrate, not daimyo.

"Champion" has two uses. One is for certain singular positions, like the Emerald Champion who serves the Emperor directly and supervises the Emerald Magistrates. Depending on era, the Emerald Champion can be second only to the Emperor in influence, and the position comes with estates for the Champion's support, but he's still addressed as Champion, not daimyo.

"Champion" is also used for the active head and defender of a clan. Most commonly this is the ruling family's daimyo "wearing two hats" in western terms, but it doesn't have to be. Sometimes its a regent for a minor heir, a notable general, or other meritocratic selection.

Doji Bigshot, for instance, might be the Doji family daimyo, the Crane clan daimyo, and the Crane clan champion all in one person. Then again he might (rarely) choose to retire out of only one of those positions, while keeping the other duties, if he wanted to start bringing his heir forward.

[dartanous]

I might have gotten this wrong now but... Is is one daimyo per province, or one daimyo per clan? And if so, is there provincial rulers? I assumed since each great clan have a few provinces each, they have a daimyo for each one of them.

[Terraoblivion]

Each province is ruled by a provincial daimyo. Each great clan family is ruled by a family daimyo. Each clan is ruled by a clan champion. Which means there are two groups of people with the title of daimyo, provincial daimyo and family daimyo.

[JustPlayItLoud]

And family daimyo are sort of provincial daimyo also, as each clan's land is typically split up with one province for each family with the head family of the clan typically overseen by the clan champion.

[Terraoblivion]

No, each great clan family usually has multiple provinces. Up to five according to Sword and Fan. Each of those provinces have their own provincial daimyo.

[BWR]

No, each great clan family usually has multiple provinces. Up to five according to Sword and Fan. Each of those provinces have their own provincial daimyo.

Guess they've retconned that, because SotLion gives the Akodo six and the Matsu eight provinces.

[Terraoblivion]

Nah, it said usually up to five. So a few families can have more. It's just that it's rare to have more than five. I should have been clearer that the usually applied to that part as well.

[Tyndmyr]

I was under the impression that any province not under the control of a great clan was under the control of the emperor. And any province in control of a great clan is borrowing or renting the land from the emperor, paying land taxes to him?

So, a great clan have several provinces, and they have a daimyo for each province? Probably some of the highest ranking members of the great clan? But Not the ruling one? Why is that? And I assume any province in an clan-free province is run by a daimyo assigned by the emperor? If the province in question is habitable, of course.

There's one daimyo per clan overall...but the term daimyo may also be used for sub-categories. For instance, there may be a local daimyo for a colony that is under the overall clan daimyo. The title for the second in command is hatamoto. Multiple titles can be held by the same individual in many instances, but usually only the highest status title is used.

The daimyo is the leader of the faction in that location...even minor clans will refer to their leader as such, though obviously they wield a great deal less power than even many members of major clans who lack such a title. Daimyos are not normally appointed by the Emperor, but instead, the power is passed down through the family.

The emperor is obstensibly in charge...but actual power is distributed among the clans. They may, perhaps, pay taxes, and usually consider the emperor over them(though in canon, exceptions exist). However, loyalties are usually to the clan before emperor. Overt conflict between loyalties is not always played up, but clans have definitely gone so far as to rebel against the emperor, and the imperials normally are playing a delicate game of balancing power in order to keep the clans from uniting against them. The Otomo family in particular excels at this.

Keep in mind that most of these answers are a "usually" sort of thing, and there's probably at least one exceptional time during the timeline. To gather a full picture, the best thing you can really do is read all of the books. =) They're pretty solid reading, though.

Disclaimer: I've been playing the RPG steadily for a while now, but I'm not nearly so familiar with the card game.

[Terraoblivion]

While that might be the terminology your group uses Tyndmyr, it's not the terminology the books use. The head of a clan is the clan champion. That's what you'll find in any RP book, any official fiction and any descriptions of clans for the card game. Daimyo are the rulers of individual provinces and of great clan families, not the heads of clans.

[Roncorps]

What I use from the 2nd edition :

Clan Champion (rule over clan, can be a family daimyo too, ex. Crane)
Family Daimyo (rule over the family, ex. Kakita)
Provincial Governor (rule over a province, possessed by a family, ex. Takuetsu province in the Kakita lands)
City/town Governor (rule over a city or a town, in a province, in a family land, ex. Tsuma, a coastal town in Takuestu province)

It's the order taken from the status rank list in Way of the Daimyo.

[Terraoblivion]

That's the way it is in fourth edition as well.

[dartanous]

Thank you so much for this help, it really helped me understand. So a provincial ruler is called a governor in rokugan, then?

Also, on a sidenote, I found something else I don't understand. Somewhere in the 4e core book (probably somewhere in the beginning, at the history pages) I found it said that the emperor realized the great clans couldn't go to war with eachother without there being great consequences for the whole of Rokugan, so he forbade them to go to war with eachother, and I believe it said that it was a law that is still in place. But then I happened upon a wiki page about Toshi Ranbo, and that the lion and crane were fighting over it pretty violently, and that it has been contested for centuries. So are they forbidden to go to war, but may do minor skirmishes or duels, or just whatever, as long as they're not caught doing it? Or is Toshi Ranbo a different circumstance altogether?

[BWR]

It's a rule more honored in the breach than in the observance.
It's along the lines of Vietnam not being an official war. There are skirmishes and bloody fights and violent disagreements all the time. Sometimes they are called 'wars', Mostly they are something like "we defended our honor against the honorless dogs of the X clan, in accordance with propriety and tradition; there was no war". Also, it's a matter of scale. Full out war like the Yasuki Wars are rare. Border skirmishes, taking all your family and heading into another clan's territory to avenge a slight, fighting over towns: these aren't really considered wars.
Lastly, forbidding all armed conflict between clans is not going to end well. The emperors ahve generally realized this and accepted that some conflicts will arise and as long as they don't get out of hand and seriously weaken the empire, it will just have to be expected and tolerated.

[Tyndmyr]

While that might be the terminology your group uses Tyndmyr, it's not the terminology the books use. The head of a clan is the clan champion. That's what you'll find in any RP book, any official fiction and any descriptions of clans for the card game. Daimyo are the rulers of individual provinces and of great clan families, not the heads of clans.

As someone else mentioned, daimyo means lord. All clans(save Phoenix under council rule) traditionally are ruled by a daimyo, who also generally holds the role of champion. It is quite possible, and indeed, normal, for someone to be the daimyo of the clan, the daimyo of their family, and the clan champion all at once.

However, it is not universal. Therefore, it is best to consider the various hierarchies of power and what each title actually means. I could cite the books on the use of terms such as "clan daimyo", if you like.

Governor is a traditional title for one who rules an area, but does not not necessarily have a significant number of samurai under him. This is, of course, a fuzzy boundary.

As for war, well...Rokugon is inherently a militaristic society. Elements like duels, etc are essential, and are not war, of course, but they're still...well, violent and militaristic. Position and status are of much importance, and force of arms are called upon when other solutions do not appear to work(and sometimes, well before then). There are more than a few conflicts of duties in Rokugon, and this inherent tension and the resulting hard decisions often come out in play. Perhaps the empire does not desire war, but this clan keeps insulting your honor. How do you handle that? The words you use can carry great weight, of course, and can be the difference between something being seen as acceptable or not.

[Roncorps]

As someone else mentioned, daimyo means lord. All clans(save Phoenix under council rule) traditionally are ruled by a daimyo, who also generally holds the role of champion. It is quite possible, and indeed, normal, for someone to be the daimyo of the clan, the daimyo of their family, and the clan champion all at once.

9/10 time, Clan Champion and Clan Daimyo are the same. But yes, there could be a Clan Champion and a Clan Daimyo, but separate, with different power over the clan. The hierarchy can move.


Governor is a traditional title for one who rules an area, but does not not necessarily have a significant number of samurai under him. This is, of course, a fuzzy boundary.


It's not fuzzy as the governor rule over what is in his control. A City Governor rule the Doshin, or police if you like. They can be samurai or ashigaru. It's more a question of what size he control, what are inside what he control and how much support does the family or even the clan give him.

[Terraoblivion]

Okay, Tyndmyr. Go ahead and tell me where it's said that the head of a clan is a daimyo and nobody else is. Because quite frankly, somebody claiming that just makes it needlessly confusing for the op.

And to answer the op's question about war. The clan's are forbidden from going to war with each other without explicit imperial approval...But no such law says that provincial daimyo or the heads of families can't go to war. Also, there have been several cases where imperial approval was given or where imperial authority collapsed enough that there was nobody to give the approval or people wouldn't listen to the guy doing so.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay, Tyndmyr. Go ahead and tell me where it's said that the head of a clan is a daimyo and nobody else is. Because quite frankly, somebody claiming that just makes it needlessly confusing for the op.

I have never said "and nobody else is".

In fact I have said the exact opposite, referring to concepts as clan daimyos, faction daimyos, etc. The x daimyo is the leader of the x, where x is a decently sized entity of Samurai. Mostly, anyway.

To expound a bit on war...what exactly consists of war is somewhat fuzzy, too. Bandits are a constant concern. Families feud, often violently. There's horrible things out there. There's crime, punishment, matters of honor....rather a lot of stabbing happens outside of the context of explicit clan on clan war.

[LibraryOgre]

Speaking of Bandits... how beyond the pale would it be for a border province to turn a blind eye to bandits... so long as they operated in an adjacent province? Like, letting those bandits raid a bit, so long as they only went after Lion targets in Lion territory, even if they retreated to Scorpion (or Unicorn, or Crane, etc.) lands? What options might you have if an armed force came to raid for bandits living in your territory, but operating in theirs?

[sktarq]

Speaking of Bandits... how beyond the pale would it be for a border province to turn a blind eye to bandits...What options might you have if an armed force came to raid for bandits living in your territory, but operating in theirs?

Well it would be a very long way from western 19th century Russia but probably a usable tactic. The victim could consider it a provocation to war with the host (and if a minor clan would have to claim the raider were working for the clan so that the host had declared war on them), also this kind of thing would be a significant reason to ask for the aid of the imperial legions via clever negotiations for "training" set up with the imperial families that the hosts couldn't really object to. Third option would be to set up your own raider-the two can play at that game response. . . And if you are really clever act like you set up such a thing (with a couple of high profile actions) then let the Imperial families that you would be willing to back down if the imperial families tell both you and host to before it gets out of hand.

[BWR]

Speaking of Bandits... how beyond the pale would it be for a border province to turn a blind eye to bandits... so long as they operated in an adjacent province? Like, letting those bandits raid a bit, so long as they only went after Lion targets in Lion territory, even if they retreated to Scorpion (or Unicorn, or Crane, etc.) lands? What options might you have if an armed force came to raid for bandits living in your territory, but operating in theirs?

While the honor of the samurai should be inviolable, there are a lot of less than honorable people out there. "So long as the bandits only raid the other clan/family/governor's lands, we don't need to bother with it" or working with the bandits, or not having the resources to do anything and just leaving well enough alone. The problem is once someone else comes armed into your territory. Since you are responsible for your own territory and that includes taking out undesirables even if they haven't actually done anything wrong in your lands, other people showing up to do your work is a problem. It's shaming to you, your lord and family because you are obviously incompetant. You will want to get the intruders out of there ASAP and restore your image by bluffing and blustering ("there aren't any bandits here") or talking about how this insult to your honor will need to be paid in blood etc.
Get members of another clan trying to enter your territory and you have a good start for a war. There have been plenty of cases of one clan intruding on other clans' lands to do some job and this always becomes a political ****storm and can easily end up very bloody. Note that canny governors will think long and hard about sending armed forces into another clan's lands. That is basically declaring war, and that makes your superiors very unhappy. Problems with bandits crossing the border is best handled by diplomacy and involving the Emerald Magistrates. Still, if diplomacy doesn't work and there aren't any available or competant EMs around and the bosses can't spare people to help, sending your own samurai to deal with the problem may be the best option. Or maybe you're just bloodthirsty or brash and ignorant of politics.

Once armed warriors of another clan have come into your lands to do stuff that isn't ok'd by you or your superiors, you have every right and obligation to drive them off or kill them, even if they do not directly attack you, your people or cause any damage to infrastructure. To save face you might claim there was a bunch of soldiers from across the border who were a bit oversealous in their hunt and crossed the border without thinking, and since they were properly repentant and did not lasting harm, you have decided to forgive them. You might claim it was part of a cross-clan effort to stamp out lawlessness - after all, cooperation between proper samurai, even if they are enemies, is better than letting scum like bandits run loose. You might even accept that these samurai knowlingly did something illegal, but being the nice chap you are, you are willing to let things slide so long as there are proper public apologies and maybe some political concessions to show they are very sorry.

[Tyndmyr]

Speaking of Bandits... how beyond the pale would it be for a border province to turn a blind eye to bandits... so long as they operated in an adjacent province? Like, letting those bandits raid a bit, so long as they only went after Lion targets in Lion territory, even if they retreated to Scorpion (or Unicorn, or Crane, etc.) lands? What options might you have if an armed force came to raid for bandits living in your territory, but operating in theirs?

It's something you wouldn't admit to doing, certainly. But it's the kind of thing that is totally in character, and would make a good dilemma. To operate officially in another clan's territory, you'd need traveling papers, etc, and it might be challenging to obtain these openly for this purpose without offering insult. Of course, getting caught in another clan's turf with armor, weapons, troops without traveling papers would be quite bad indeed.

Hell, one border clan(the crab) once even allied with the Shadowlands, which is waaay beyond the pale, so yeah, this is quite a plausible situation to present PCs with.

Different clans(and indeed, even different families) would likely respond in very differing ways. Lion might take insult, and solve everything with face-smashing. Scorpion would probably do a bunch of shadowy, not terribly honorable stuff, and suddenly, there'd be corpses until the problem ceased. Even within a clan, of course, there are a few options for handling the situation. For instance, as a courtier, you could publicly make a show of gifting the offending clan information which shows that those terrible bandits have dared to intrude upon their lands. If done right, you could avoid calling their innocence into question by pretending to assume that they were uninvolved/unaware, but the public nature would compel them to act on it.

I'm playin' in a monthly L5R larp(85-odd PCs currently), and such awkward border situations crop up all the time. Someone just got caught with troops hidden in another clan's land, for instance, while another two clans had a simple misunderstanding escalate to where a daimyo was disappeared, and the imperials are now involved. Consequences for bad handling of such a situation can be far-reaching.

[Terraoblivion]

I have never said "and nobody else is".

In fact I have said the exact opposite, referring to concepts as clan daimyos, faction daimyos, etc. The x daimyo is the leader of the x, where x is a decently sized entity of Samurai. Mostly, anyway.

Okay, so you've mostly been using first edition material in other words, from second edition onwards daimyo specifically means the head of a great clan family or the governor of a province and usually with the word family or provincial in front to clarify. Although, even in first edition nobody ever used the term clan daimyo and instead called the head of a clan the clan champion. Which is a useful thing as it is not only clearer, but also closer to what daimyo means in actual Japanese. There were lots of high ranking, powerful people who ruled over others who weren't called daimyo. The emperor wasn't a daimyo, nor was the classic Heian nobility even when they actually ran the country or the shogun in periods that had one. Government ministers weren't daimyo either, nor were political appointees of various kinds such as the governors of the lands directly managed by the shogunate. In actual Japanese a daimyo is a hereditary feudal lord whose power derives from land holdings in his own name and a presumably, if often not an actual, ancestral claim to those lands. Which is pretty much what AEG clarified it to mean.

Also, I will point out that you did say that each clan has one daimyo without clarifying that there could be other daimyo that just aren't the daimyo of the clan, making it hard to guess that you meant that it wasn't just the word for clan champion.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, I will point out that you did say that each clan has one daimyo without clarifying that there could be other daimyo that just aren't the daimyo of the clan, making it hard to guess that you meant that it wasn't just the word for clan champion.

That clarification was literally the very next thing I said. Like...the rest of the same sentence.

The term "shogun" is not generally used in L5R*. Rokugon varies from historical japan in quite a few respects. Meh. It is to historical Japan what D&D is to historical Europe. In game terms may not always accurately reflect history.

*Exception: Leader of the imperial army at some points in the official timeline. However, this still is not exactly the same as historical Japan.

[Terraoblivion]

I'm just clarifying that the 2e onwards usage is in line with what the actual word means, as opposed to the 1e grab bag of usages.

[blacklight101]

I have the 3e version of this but have yet to play a game because of lack of interest/lack of materials with my friends. Is the community active enough on this forum to have a number of games going- not to say a 3.x number of games, just a recruitment drive now and then. I know my post would likely be better in recruitment, but I want to test the waters before I shoot for a game or somesuch.

[BWR]

I have the 3e version of this but have yet to play a game because of lack of interest/lack of materials with my friends. Is the community active enough on this forum to have a number of games going- not to say a 3.x number of games, just a recruitment drive now and then. I know my post would likely be better in recruitment, but I want to test the waters before I shoot for a game or somesuch.

I don't know about this site but you'd probably be better off looking at the games announced on the AEG boards (http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=275&sid=010ab8dbda5cba3423cc0f1dfdf9b792).
Most of them are 4e, sadly, but I've heard good things about several of them (including one series of connected campaigns that's run for something like 5 years). Be warned, thye are serious time sinks.

[blacklight101]

Thanks, ill have a look at it. To bad I missed the relative prime time for 3e, I really like the look of the system. Nothing against 4e, it just means more books to buy. I may just break down and get 4e if I have to.