Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata [Archive]

NeoPhoenix0

2014-09-20, 02:12 PM

So this thread is the next in a long line of threads collecting rules from 3.5 and pathifnder that just don't seem to work right.

Check the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267985) to see if your dysfunction is already there, cause this is the 6th thread.

Previous threads:

"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214988)
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267923)
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283778)
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304817)
Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333789-Dysfunctional-Rules-Thread-V-Dysfunctions-All-the-Way-Down)

Qwertystop

2014-09-20, 02:22 PM

The ACG spell "Memorize Page" never actually says what a "page" is for the purpose of the spell. You could memorize every detail on a giant piece of paper with a surface area and writing equal to encyclopedias. Stretching it MUCH further, you could actually memorize every detail about a person if their profession was "page".

Also it says Modify Memory can remove the knowledge, but the spell works on time, not volume of information so it's unclear how many castings you would need to remove 1 or multiple castings of "Memorize Page".

Noting, though:
"The memory of the page includes text and images"
If you memorized a person who was a page, it's questionable whether you'd learn more than their tattoos.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-20, 02:33 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372918-able-learner-vs-truename-training&p=18139780#post18139780

Tl;dr if you want to take Truename Training, you don't want to take Able Learner because of how the two interact. You're actually better off just sucking up crossclass ranks until you take Truename Training.

skills are weird and fiddly.

Flickerdart

2014-09-20, 04:11 PM

Noting, though:
"The memory of the page includes text and images"
If you memorized a person who was a page, it's questionable whether you'd learn more than their tattoos.
To be fair, you could have a a page who is also a wizard and uses the tattoo spellbook from Complete Arcana.

deuxhero

2014-09-20, 06:15 PM

The spell actually says spellbook pages have to be written down then read for you to do anything with them ("Because Magic" I guess).

Also CA is 3.5 while Memorize Page is PF. The Magus arcana Spell-Scars does work however.

The Viscount

2014-09-21, 01:10 AM

Chronos

2014-09-21, 07:03 AM

No brains

2014-09-21, 01:52 PM

Creatures are all assumed to have humanlike senses unless otherwise specified. Even if a creature doesn't have any obvious nose, it's still assumed to have something or another which functions as an olfactory organ. The real dysfunction here is that this applies even to (for instance) constructs.

Stench specifies that it affects living creatures and is an effect with a fortitude save that doesn't affect objects. Further, immunity to poison is a specific immunity from the construct and undead types. Never mind bathing and holding it in, Con - creatures aren't offended/ affected.

Flickerdart

2014-09-21, 04:18 PM

Stench (as possessed by ghasts, hezrous, and troglodytes) is funky. Immunity to poison protects you from it, but not needing to breathe does not. Similarly all sorts of creatures without any real olfactory organs are completely vulnerable to stench.
Regardless of the funkiness of the stench, it's entirely possible that the harmful nature of the stench is due to an airborne poison of some sort, rather than just being a vomit-inducing odour.

Chronos

2014-09-21, 05:10 PM

I didn't mean that constructs suffer penalties from stench-- I just meant the fact that they have a sense of smell at all.

No brains

2014-09-21, 05:19 PM

I guess that is a little weird. Maybe golems should taste their master's food for poison.

Nettlekid

2014-09-21, 06:55 PM

Ehcks

2014-09-21, 06:59 PM

Regardless of the funkiness of the stench, it's entirely possible that the harmful nature of the stench is due to an airborne poison of some sort, rather than just being a vomit-inducing odour.

That is, of course, how odors work. They're chemicals floating through the air. For Stench, it's not just that they smell really bad. They're exuding a cloud of poisonous smoke, that also smells really bad.

Making it a skin-penetrating chemical is easy.

No brains

2014-09-22, 07:50 PM

I expect this has already been mentioned long ago, but I haven't read through all the previous threads so it's new to me.

Polymorph states that a creature with the Shapechanger subtype can change back to its normal form as a standard action, but Polymorph changes the creature's subtype to match that of its assumed form. That means a creature with the Shapechanger subtype loses that subtype, so Polymorph's special caveat is useless to it. It would only be useful for a creature that was Polymorphed INTO a Shapechanger.

The entirety of everything about polymorph is dysfunctional. Though the more that we can specify the better.

Unrelated, on page 33 of Libris Mortis, there are rules for con trolling an undead mount. The paragraph delineating the rules states that these rules exist because of the difficulty in controlling a non-intelligent mount, but the actual rules specify all undead as following these rules, regardless of intelligence.

One extra bit that I need a better rules lawyer to verify for me is that these rules might supersede other restrictions on what makes a mount. It might be that any undead can be used as a mount following these rules as they are written without any need to determine if the mount is willing or able.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-22, 07:55 PM

I cannot for the life of me find anything on how fractional HD work in the SRD. Are they actually defined anywhere?

Telok

2014-09-22, 08:56 PM

I cannot for the life of me find anything on how fractional HD work in the SRD. Are they actually defined anywhere?

Probably in the first monster manual. They're a hold over from older editions, you just take a fraction of the HP that the die normally gives. For everything else you treat then as 1 HD. At least that's the way it was done back in the day.

In regards to riding tho... I'm trying to set up a mind flayer riding a void-mind beholder (yes it's a semi-boss fight) and I'm thinking of extrapolating from archers riding an elephant but the rules are... iffy... once you get past "some guy on a horse".

heavyfuel

2014-09-22, 11:18 PM

I might be missing something here, but the Toothed Tentacle spell from LEoF.

It has a duration of Concentration, which means your standard action is being used every turn. But you also require a Standard or Full-Round action to have the mouths attack. So it's impossible for them to attack unless you also have the Swift Concentration skill trick.

Sith_Happens

2014-09-22, 11:55 PM

Lone unicorns occasionally allow themselves to be tamed and ridden by good human or elven maidens of pure heart.

The Beloved of Valarian's Call Unicorn feature provides no exception to this statement, meaning that many Beloveds of Valarian cannot ride their own unicorn companions. The Elf Paladin 5 substitution level's Unicorn Mount feature is better but still not quite all the way there:

The unicorn serves as a loyal steed regardless of the paladin’s gender.

That still leaves the virginity requirement. Hope you weren't planning on having your Elf Paladin get any.

----------

Going back to Beloved of Valarian, the only way for a Beloved 10 to replace her unicorn companion is to get level drained and then gain the level back.

heavyfuel

2014-09-22, 11:58 PM

The Beloved of Valarian's Call Unicorn feature provides no exception to this statement, meaning that many Beloveds of Valarian cannot ride their own unicorn companions. The Elf Paladin 5 substitution level's Unicorn Mount feature is better but still not quite all the way there:

That still leaves the virginity requirement. Hope you weren't planning on having your Elf Paladin get any.

----------

Going back to Beloved of Valarian, the only way for a Beloved 10 to replace her unicorn companion is to get level drained and then gain the level back.

Can you even be a maiden if you're not a girl? As I think the answer is "no", then it's probably more like "men can't ride it, even if they're virgins, as they're not maidens"

bekeleven

2014-09-22, 11:59 PM

You know who I really feel sorry for in this equation?

Beloved of Valarian Half-elves.

Sith_Happens

2014-09-23, 12:02 AM

You know who I really feel sorry for in this equation?

Beloved of Valarian Half-elves.

Actually I'm pretty sure Elven Blood covers that.

zergling.exe

2014-09-23, 12:33 AM

bekeleven

2014-09-23, 01:18 AM

Wild Mages can cast spells with a caster level of 0. One level of a casting class plus wild mage gives you a caster level of 2. Then wild magic reduces it by 3 to -1, then makes you roll a d6 to add to your caster level, and you get a 1. What effects would a spell that relies on caster level have if you have a caster level of 0?
This isn't exactly dysfunctional because there are rules for this: You're plugging a number into a formula. For instance, should you somehow get fireball at this level, it would have a range of 400 feet and cause a fiery explosion that deals no damage.

There may be specific spells that break with this information, but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

heavyfuel

2014-09-23, 01:21 AM

This isn't exactly dysfunctional because there are rules for this: You're plugging a number into a formula. For instance, should you somehow get fireball at this level, it would have a range of 400 feet and cause a fiery explosion that deals no damage.

There may be specific spells that break with this information, but off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Unless you call a fiery explosion that deals no damage dysfunctional, which might as well be.

Also, can you get negative CL? Like, you can throw a fireball at 360ft and it explodes healing everyone?

Erik Vale

2014-09-23, 01:26 AM

That still leaves the virginity requirement. Hope you weren't planning on having your Elf Paladin get any.

Maiden doesn't [or didn't] actually mean virgin, it simply means/t unmarried. Of course, in theory these were the same thing, which is how the Mary became a Virgin and how Abstinence no longer works [assuming rape is discounted, which it normally is] if you're Christian.
*Checks modern dictionary*
Maiden (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maiden), which doesn't necessarily mean virgin with it's primary meaning being a young or unmarried women. However, it can mean virginal. So, in this case it's ask your god... I mean GM.
Or, argue that you have to not match any criteria, so you can be a paladin that get's it regularly or you can be a married paladin who never does it... Or have never won a race and turn into a horse, but then you need to increase the size of a unicorn, and you lack hands.

Erik Vale

2014-09-23, 01:27 AM

Unless you call a fiery explosion that deals no damage dysfunctional, which might as well be.

Also, can you get negative CL? Like, you can throw a fireball at 360ft and it explodes healing everyone?

Double disfunction, subtractions always leave you with at least 1, so with negative caster level you deal more damage than with no caster level. :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

Jeff the Green

2014-09-23, 01:59 AM

Maiden doesn't [or didn't] actually mean virgin, it simply means/t unmarried. Of course, in theory these were the same thing, which is how the Mary became a Virgin and how Abstinence no longer works [assuming rape is discounted, which it normally is] if you're Christian.
*Checks modern dictionary*
Maiden (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maiden), which doesn't necessarily mean virgin with it's primary meaning being a young or unmarried women. However, it can mean virginal. So, in this case it's ask your god... I mean GM.
Or, argue that you have to not match any criteria, so you can be a paladin that get's it regularly or you can be a married paladin who never does it... Or have never won a race and turn into a horse, but then you need to increase the size of a unicorn, and you lack hands.

Debatable. The Wiktionary entry (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/maiden), which I've found to be pretty reliable on these things, lists its etymology going back to Proto-Indo-European. Which is a good thing, because you have to go back that far before "maiden" (or its precursors) didn't have an implication of virginity. Of course, virginity may have been a polite fiction in many cases.

More importantly, lexicology is descriptive, not prescriptive, and ignores etymology. In modern English "maiden" almost always means a virgin woman. (If you want to look at historic usage, actually, "maiden" has been used to describe virgin men.)

(And almah, the Hebrew word you're thinking of means a woman of childbearing age that hasn't yet borne a child; it can refer to a married woman but for obvious reasons usually doesn't.)

Kazyan

2014-09-23, 02:03 AM

The Sunfly Swarm in Book of Exalted Deeds has two spell-like abilities. One is detect evil. The other is detect evil. This was not errata'd.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 08:03 AM

Unless you call a fiery explosion that deals no damage dysfunctional, which might as well be.

Also, can you get negative CL? Like, you can throw a fireball at 360ft and it explodes healing everyone?

Not just that, it explodes dealing no damage and then sets things on fire.

Gemini476

2014-09-23, 08:31 AM

Wild Mages can cast spells with a caster level of 0. One level of a casting class plus wild mage gives you a caster level of 2. Then wild magic reduces it by 3 to -1, then makes you roll a d6 to add to your caster level, and you get a 1. What effects would a spell that relies on caster level have if you have a caster level of 0?

Shouldn't the unwritten-but-assumed rule about not being able to cast spells at a lower caster level than the minimum (whatever that may be) stop this? (Not that the (non)existence of that rule isn't dysfunctional in the first place.)

Although if it doesn't I'd suggest adding the Mage Slayer feat to the mix. 2 base caster levels - 3 (Wild Magic) - 4 (Mage Slayer) + 1d6 = -4 to 1 (average -0.5). I'm sure that there's some weird things that can be done with so low caster levels.

Chronos

2014-09-23, 08:49 AM

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 09:08 AM

I've always chalked that up to the Beloved being...betrothed to the unicorn.

Necroticplague

2014-09-23, 09:11 AM

The only dysfunction with the Beloved of Valarian's unicorn is that the writers didn't know the difference between "chaste" and "celibate". All Beloved of Valarians are female, and if they "ever willingly couple with a mortal, the unicorn leaves her company without hard feelings or regret".

The addition of "mortal" to that sentence has some disturbing implications. It's also rather redundant, given that it has vow of chasity as a prereq. When you combine the two, though, it means that immortal objects are fair game. Make of it what you will.

Inevitability

2014-09-23, 09:20 AM

It is possible to have the same subtype twice. A human can take the Human Heritage feat (which, even when not dysfunctional, is still pretty weird), gaining the human subtype while keeping his old subtypes. He'd now be a Humanoid (human) (human).

Erik Vale

2014-09-23, 09:21 AM

Necroticplague

2014-09-23, 09:33 AM

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-23, 10:06 AM

Like I said, vow of chasity says "any other creature", so all of those are out. Objects are still fine.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3750881536/h44DCC15D/

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 10:22 AM

Well Mortal is used to both describe creatures who age, and creatures who aren't gods. So, are you stuck with Elan's and Killoren's [Ignoring Warforged and Necropolitins for obvious reasons and Neraph's because Neraph... but then again, Humans, also ignoring most other fey/outsiders due to access difficulties], or are you stuck with just gods?

Weeeeellll....

Lichloved [Vile]
By repeatedly committing perverted sex acts with the undead, the character gains dread powers.

Prerequisite: Evil Brand

Benefit: Mindless undead see the character as an undead creature. Becoming more and more like an actual undead creature, he gains a +1 circumstance bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, and disease.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-23, 10:38 AM

Double disfunction, subtractions always leave you with at least 1, so ...
Not a general rule. There are a bunch of specific rules regarding things like hit points and damage, but there's no such rule for caster level AFAIK.

illyahr

2014-09-23, 11:42 AM

Like I said, vow of chasity says "any other creature", so all of those are out. Objects are still fine.

You better have access to an Effigy Master. Just saying. :smallamused:

Fax Celestis

2014-09-23, 03:45 PM

The Obscure Personal Truename feat:

The DC to speak your personal truename increases by 4 (this stacks with the +2 bonus that normally applies to a DC to speak a personal truename). Your normal truename--the one a truenamer would use if he didn't know your personal truename--is unaffected by this feat. In addition, those attempting to research your personal truename find doing so much more difficult. The DC of any checkmade to research your personal truename increases by 4.

...makes it harder to speak your own truename. Apparently this is intentional, because the Acolyte of the Ego's similar class feature:

Alter Personal Truename (Su): At 7th level, you can alter your own truename slightly—just enough to make it difficult or impossible for others to utter it correctly. Any creature other than you that attempts to speak your truename takes a —4 penalty on the Truespeak check. At 9th level, this penalty increases to —8.
...includes text for making sure it doesn't affect yourself.

Ksheep

2014-09-23, 04:06 PM

The purported Beloved of Valarian issue also affects the Healer class, from Miniatures Handbook. Healers of 8th level get a Celestial Unicorn companion, for use as a mount and aide. However, there are no clauses which allow for non-human/elven non-female non-pure-of-heart Healers from obtaining said companion, and the only requirement for the class is for the character to be of Any Good alignment.

Of course, you then have the minor dysfunction of someone choosing to play a Healer class to begin with…

Then again, the DM could easily argue that the passage saying that Unicorns allow Elven or Human maidens of pure heart to tame them is just flavor text and not in the actual rules for Unicorn… although going by that logic, the part saying that you can sell Unicorn Horns for 2000 GP is also just flavor text and not part of the rules.

EDIT: Note to self, re-read what I type and make sure I don't use the exact same phrase to start two different paragraphs…

Sith_Happens

2014-09-23, 04:18 PM

You better have access to an Effigy Master. Just saying. :smallamused:

Constructs are creatures.

The Obscure Personal Truename feat:

...makes it harder to speak your own truename. Apparently this is intentional, because the Acolyte of the Ego's similar class feature:

...includes text for making sure it doesn't affect yourself.

First rule of the Truenaming chapter: Never attribute to malice what could instead be incompetence.:smalltongue:

Seppo87

2014-09-24, 11:31 AM

Factotum's Cunning Strike does not specify a duration. RAW, the sneak attack die lasts forever.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-24, 11:52 AM

Factotum's Cunning Strike does not specify a duration. RAW, the sneak attack die lasts forever.
Not exactly.
You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. It's good for the next (single) attack roll.

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-24, 11:58 AM

Factotum's Cunning Strike does not specify a duration. RAW, the sneak attack die lasts forever.

If no "general" rule stops this, the same is true for cunning surge.
Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you learn to push yourself when needed. By spending 3 inspiration points, you can take an extra standard action during your turn.

yep, that's right, extra standard action on all your turns forever for a renewable resource. Totally balanced.

Brookshw

2014-09-24, 12:41 PM

Then again, the DM could easily argue that the passage saying that Unicorns allow Elven or Human maidens of pure heart to tame them is just flavor text and not in the actual rules for Unicorn… although going by that logic, the part saying that you can sell Unicorn Horns for 2000 GP is also just flavor text and not part of the rules.

Huh. And yet a unicorn only costs 900gp per the lords of madness equation I believe.

Ksheep

2014-09-24, 01:11 PM

Huh. And yet a unicorn only costs 900gp per the lords of madness equation I believe.

Are you basing that off of the "Trading with the Neogi" section? If so, it states that "unusual or marketable qualities in a slave, such as great strength, great beauty, valuable skill, or exotic origin, can multiply the price by two, three, or four." I would think that a Unicorn might qualify for the Exotic Origin multiplier, at the very least… so 1,800 GP? More likely 2,700+ GP, and that's assuming they have a Unicorn for sale.

EDIT: Would a STR of 20 qualify for the "Great Strength" multiplier? Would CHA of 24 count as "Great Beauty"? Would the Cure Light/Moderate Wounds SLA count as a "Valuable Skill"? If so, Unicorns have most, if not all, of the multipliers applied to them, so we'd be looking at 3,600 GP for a Unicorn.

Brookshw

2014-09-24, 02:17 PM

Are you basing that off of the "Trading with the Neogi" section? If so, it states that "unusual or marketable qualities in a slave, such as great strength, great beauty, valuable skill, or exotic origin, can multiply the price by two, three, or four." I would think that a Unicorn might qualify for the Exotic Origin multiplier, at the very least… so 1,800 GP? More likely 2,700+ GP, and that's assuming they have a Unicorn for sale.

EDIT: Would a STR of 20 qualify for the "Great Strength" multiplier? Would CHA of 24 count as "Great Beauty"? Would the Cure Light/Moderate Wounds SLA count as a "Valuable Skill"? If so, Unicorns have most, if not all, of the multipliers applied to them, so we'd be looking at 3,600 GP for a Unicorn.
Don't actually have the book in front of me but that would make much more sense.

Inevitability

2014-09-24, 02:39 PM

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-24, 03:12 PM

A 1st-level monk's unarmed strike damage is higher than that of a spiked gauntlet. Or to put it differently, having spiked gloves covering your hands and then punching someone is a worse combat tactic than simply punching someone.

Not dysfunctional. Not only are the rules perfectly clear on what is the case, but no house rule is needed and it is perfectly logical that somebody trained to use their fist would be able to hit harder with their hands then with spikes mounted on thin metal plates an some padding.

Seppo87

2014-09-24, 06:38 PM

Not exactly. It's good for the next (single) attack roll.
It's either The attack roll which beenfits from Sneak Attack or The attack roll that is required to activate this ability.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-24, 08:44 PM

It's either The attack roll which beenfits from Sneak Attack or The attack roll that is required to activate this ability.
There's no such thing. Here's the rule from the Combat chapter:
Attack Roll

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. So Cunning Strike is good for the next (single) attack roll on your turn in a (single) round. No opponent that you attempt to strike = no Cunning Strike.

Erik Vale

2014-09-24, 09:08 PM

Not a general rule. There are a bunch of specific rules regarding things like hit points and damage, but there's no such rule for caster level AFAIK.

Don't misquote me, I was saying you would roll negative Damage, due to damage rules that would convert to 1 as subtractions always leave you with one, which results in you doing more damage than if you had 0 CL.
:smallfurious:

Curmudgeon

2014-09-24, 10:01 PM

Don't misquote me, I was saying you would roll negative Damage, due to damage rules that would convert to 1 as subtractions always leave you with one, which results in you doing more damage than if you had 0 CL.
:smallfurious:
I wasn't misquoting you. You said subtractions always leave you with at least 1, without restricting the context of that statement to damage. I pointed out that you made an overstatement. Because the primary topic was about caster level, your statement was easily read as applying to subtractions of CL always leaving you with at least CL 1.

Erik Vale

2014-09-24, 11:16 PM

I wasn't misquoting you. You said subtractions always leave you with at least 1, without restricting the context of that statement to damage. I pointed out that you made an overstatement. Because the primary topic was about caster level, your statement was easily read as applying to subtractions of CL always leaving you with at least CL 1.

Ahh, my mistake then, I apologise.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-24, 11:40 PM

Ahh, my mistake then, I apologise.
No problem. I care a whole lot more about getting to the clearest understanding of the rules than I do about bruised egos. I can sometimes come across as being overly harsh because of that, though that's not my intent.

Seppo87

2014-09-25, 02:52 AM

No opponent that you attempt to strike = no Cunning Strike.that's what I'm saying. No attack roll = no cunning strike. Still, it does not say that the extra die only applies to that attack.

"By spending 1 dollar, you gain a lighter. You must spend the dollar before sucking air through the cigarette"
This sentence means that
-I need to be about to suck air from a cigarette in order to buy the lighter.
-Once I bought the lighter, it's mine. It does not say it's lost after I'm finished smoking

deuxhero

2014-09-27, 07:53 PM

Charging never gets better (or worse) if you are really fast (or slow) except if you use a lance on a mount (even if it is slower than you are on foot).

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-27, 09:06 PM

Charging never betters better (or worse) if you are really fast (or slow) except if you use a lance on a mount (even if it is slower than you are on foot).

I think the lance part is more having a 1 ton horse moving with you then speed (this isn't worthy of killing cat girls over, it would take moving at a speed of over 100 ft/rd for a 200 lb creature to mimic the energy gained from adding a horses mass to your own)

Erik Vale

2014-09-27, 09:26 PM

Charging never betters better (or worse) if you are really fast (or slow) except if you use a lance on a mount (even if it is slower than you are on foot).

... I know your speaking English, but can you actually speak it, because your sentence keeps breaking my brain.

Sith_Happens

2014-09-28, 05:32 AM

... I know your speaking English, but can you actually speak it, because your sentence keeps breaking my brain.

He's saying that not only does the effectiveness of a charge stay the same regardless of your speed, but you could be faster than a horse and still need to use the horse to deal double damage with a lance.

Gemini476

2014-09-28, 08:42 AM

I think the lance part is more having a 1 ton horse moving with you then speed (this isn't worthy of killing cat girls over, it would take moving at a speed of over 100 ft/rd for a 200 lb creature to mimic the energy gained from adding a horses mass to your own)

Let's say, hypothetically, that you have a mount with a move speed of... 5ft, since that's the minimum. Maybe it's a very slow giant or something, I dunno.

And you, in turn, are a Monk with a move speed of 90ft. Plus a bit more, if we add on various applicable feats and the Quick trait. Get proficiency in a lance through whatever means.

Charging on the shoulders of Captain Slow the Hibernating Giant will still be more effective than speed-blitzing with your Monk-based super-speed.

I'm pretty sure that the double damage on a charge thing is just a legacy mechanic from back when you'd maybe get two attacks per round as a Fighter anyway.

ShurikVch

2014-09-28, 09:59 AM

Eldritch Disciple (http://dndtools.eu/classes/eldritch-disciple/) can Coup de Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) with his Healing Blast. Targeted creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. (Unless it's undead, of course! :smallbiggrin: )

Text trumps table. Advancement table for Oozemaster (http://dndtools.eu/classes/oozemaster/) says about sizable Charisma penalties every even level. Text disagree.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-28, 10:49 AM

Text trumps table. Advancement table for Oozemaster (http://dndtools.eu/classes/oozemaster/) says about sizable Charisma penalties every even level. Text disagree.
Where, exactly, is this disagreement? I don't find anything in the Oozemaster class description (Masters of the Wild, pages 67-68) which says there are not Charisma penalties increasing every even level.

ShurikVch

2014-09-28, 11:02 AM

Where, exactly, is this disagreement? I don't find anything in the Oozemaster class description (Masters of the Wild, pages 67-68) which says there are not Charisma penalties increasing every even level. Dunno... Same reason why Vermin Lord have(n't) his pincer claws?..

geekintheground

2014-09-29, 10:47 AM

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 10:56 AM

Eldritch Disciple (http://dndtools.eu/classes/eldritch-disciple/) can Coup de Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) with his Healing Blast. Targeted creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. (Unless it's undead, of course! :smallbiggrin: )

...I don't think this is remotely true. As per coup-de-grace:

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
A Healing Blast is not a melee weapon, nor is it a bow or crossbow. Thus, you can't CDG with it.

ShurikVch

2014-09-29, 11:01 AM

...I don't think this is remotely true. As per coup-de-grace:

A Healing Blast is not a melee weapon, nor is it a bow or crossbow. Thus, you can't CDG with it.
Eldritch Glaive? Eldritch Claws? Hideous Blow?

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 11:11 AM

Eldritch Glaive? Eldritch Claws? Hideous Blow?

The first uses up a full-round action to form it, and is used to attack with it. it'll dissipate by the time you have actions available to CDG with it. The second you can CDG with, but not apply Healing Blast to, since you can't use blast essences with your claws (which are not an eldritch blast to begin with). The third uses up a standard action, and thus is incompatible with the full-round required for CDG, in addition to not leaving something around for you to use.

ShurikVch

2014-09-29, 11:17 AM

The first uses up a full-round action to form it, and is used to attack with it. it'll dissipate by the time you have actions available to CDG with it. The second you can CDG with, but not apply Healing Blast to, since you can't use blast essences with your claws (which are not an eldritch blast to begin with). The third uses up a standard action, and thus is incompatible with the full-round required for CDG, in addition to not leaving something around for you to use.
Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://dndtools.eu/feats/monster-manual-v--78/quicken-spell-like-ability--2337/)?

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 11:25 AM

Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://dndtools.eu/feats/monster-manual-v--78/quicken-spell-like-ability--2337/)?

Still doesn't solve the problem that these two (eldritch glaive and hideous blow) aren't "use the action, get a weapon", they're "you make an attack". So a Quickened Eldritch Glaive doesn't give you a glaive which you can use as you please, it would let you full-attack as a swift action, and a Quickened Hideous Blow just lets you make an attack that EB damage gets added to. And an attack is not the same thing as a CDG, so you couldn't use the attacks provided to do that.

Gemini476

2014-09-29, 11:30 AM

Didn't Complete Arcane introduce some rules for Coup de Grace with spells? Or am I misremembering things?

The Random NPC

2014-09-29, 11:33 AM

ShurikVch

2014-09-29, 11:37 AM

Still doesn't solve the problem that these two (eldritch glaive and hideous blow) aren't "use the action, get a weapon", they're "you make an attack". So a Quickened Eldritch Glaive doesn't give you a glaive which you can use as you please, it would let you full-attack as a swift action, and a Quickened Hideous Blow just lets you make an attack that EB damage gets added to. And an attack is not the same thing as a CDG, so you couldn't use the attacks provided to do that. Death Blow (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/death-blow--533/)?

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 11:39 AM

Death Blow (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/death-blow--533/)?

Doesn't let you use an attack (such as those provided by Eldritch Glaive or Hideous Blow) to do a CDG, it allows you to make a CDG quicker. Still not possible for those two to make a CDG, and not possible to have Healing Blast hit something you CDG.

Tarlek Flamehai

2014-09-29, 11:42 AM

didnt see this in the handbook, and there might be something im missing but: the rod of wonder can shrink the wielder to 1/12 their original height with no save. but theres no change in size category, reach, or speed. so if a 6' tall human used it they would be a medium sized 6" human with a 30' movement speed. if it happened to a large creature with 50' speed, theyd still count as large, still have 10' reach and still move 50'/round

I don't have the books in front of me, but I am pretty sure Size is determined by size, and not by race, type, etc. That's why when you Improve a monster by changing its Size it doesn't become a whole new monster.

ShurikVch

2014-09-29, 11:56 AM

Doesn't let you use an attack (such as those provided by Eldritch Glaive or Hideous Blow) to do a CDG, it allows you to make a CDG quicker. Still not possible for those two to make a CDG, and not possible to have Healing Blast hit something you CDG. OK :smallsigh:
At the very least, is it possible to CDG with usual melee weapon, charged with Cure ... Wounds or Heal spell via Spell Storing (http://dndtools.eu/items/dungeon-masters-guide-v35--4/spell-storing--161/), Spell Storing Item (http://dndtools.eu/spells/eberron-campaign-setting--12/spell-storing-item--4934/), Arcane Channeling (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/), Arcane Infusion (http://dndtools.eu/classes/daggerspell-mage/), or Channel Spell (http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellsword/)?

nedz

2014-09-29, 12:13 PM

I recall reading somewhere that you can start a full action on one round and finish it the next. I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Here's the SRD on it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#startCompleteFullRoundAction), you can start a CDG if you have a standard action, but you must finish it the next round.

Doesn't help — that's just a different kind of Standard action.

Where, exactly, is this disagreement? I don't find anything in the Oozemaster class description (Masters of the Wild, pages 67-68) which says there are not Charisma penalties increasing every even level.

Agreed, the text is silent on this.

Though I am curious as to what 1d4 points of Stunning Damage means (Minor Oozy Touch — Ochre jelly ) ?
Is this a 3.0 thing ? :smallconfused:

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 12:14 PM

OK :smallsigh:
At the very least, is it possible to CDG with usual melee weapon, charged with Cure ... Wounds or Heal spell via Spell Storing (http://dndtools.eu/items/dungeon-masters-guide-v35--4/spell-storing--161/), Spell Storing Item (http://dndtools.eu/spells/eberron-campaign-setting--12/spell-storing-item--4934/), Arcane Channeling (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/), Arcane Infusion (http://dndtools.eu/classes/daggerspell-mage/), or Channel Spell (http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellsword/)?

In order of the linked things:

1.Well, Spell Storing would trigger AFTER the CDG, but yes, you could decide to heal them (and yes, it would be a decision, thanks to if-then nature, and free action required, along with "if the weilder desires"). Seems like an odd decision, but you could.

2.No, because the casting of the spell using the "wand" and the CDG would be separate actions.

3.No, same problem as Hideous Blow: standard action attack, not something you can CDG with. If you refer to the level 13 upgrade, then still no, because that's part of the Full-Round Attack action, which is different from using a full-round action to CDG someone.

4.No, because that doesn't even remotely come close to doing anything relevant. It just lets you add elemental damage to an attack, nothing about it would let you add healing to it (unless you hit something that heals from that element).

5.Yes.

Curmudgeon

2014-09-29, 01:08 PM

Didn't Complete Arcane introduce some rules for Coup de Grace with spells? Or am I misremembering things?
Sneak attack with spells, yes. Nothing about coup de grace.

Svata

2014-09-29, 01:22 PM

Its really a shame that coup de grace is so limited in what it can bedone with. Means you can't coup de grace a ogre mage/troll/other creature with regen overcome by fire by pouring a vial of alchemist's fire down their throat. Which would be awesome.

Namfuak

2014-09-29, 01:32 PM

Inevitability

2014-09-29, 02:19 PM

I don't think I saw anyone mention this, but in terms of things you could do with the negative caster level thing, you could have spells affect creatures retroactively since their duration would be negative. I feel like this could be really powerful, like if you cast glitterdust on an invisible creature a round after everyone failed to notice it and it sneak attacked a party member.

Did you... did you just make cantrips able to travel through time?

You sir, are my hero.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-29, 08:03 PM

I don't think I saw anyone mention this, but in terms of things you could do with the negative caster level thing, you could have spells affect creatures retroactively since their duration would be negative. I feel like this could be really powerful, like if you cast glitterdust on an invisible creature a round after everyone failed to notice it and it sneak attacked a party member.

I don't think this works. Duration is one of those things that, like magnitude or heat, can't go negative. All that happens if you cast a spell with a duration of 1 round/level at a negative caster level is that you break the game.

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 08:19 PM

I don't think this works. Duration is one of those things that, like magnitude or heat, can't go negative. All that happens if you cast a spell with a duration of 1 round/level at a negative caster level is that you break the game.

Any measurement with a direction can be negative. Since duration has an, at least implicit, direction (of "into the future"), then it can be negative by going in the opposite direction. Kinda like how velocity can be negative ("How far north did you go?" "Negative 50" "?" "I went south").

NeoPhoenix0

2014-09-29, 08:24 PM

Any measurement with a direction can be negative. Since duration has an, at least implicit, direction (of "into the future"), then it can be negative by going in the opposite direction. Kinda like how velocity can be negative ("How far north did you go?" "Negative 50" "?" "I went south").

duration is an amount of time, it does not have a direction, that is the issue with that. going back in time would mean it would still have a positive duration.

edit: i explained that poorly, it's like haveing negative 2 apples

georgie_leech

2014-09-29, 08:45 PM

duration is an amount of time, it does not have a direction, that is the issue with that. going back in time would mean it would still have a positive duration.

edit: i explained that poorly, it's like haveing negative 2 apples

The difference being that number of apples is a quantity and time, so far as physics looks at it, is a dimension. We perceive time as linear, but it's mathematically more consistent to treat it as analogous to the spatial dimensions.

All donations will be given to the Save the Catgirls breeding program.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-29, 08:52 PM

The difference being that number of apples is a quantity and time, so far as physics looks at it, is a dimension. We perceive time as linear, but it's mathematically more consistent to treat it as analogous to the spatial dimensions.

All donations will be given to the Save the Catgirls breeding program.

Which is fine, but duration is an amount of time, much as a cubic foot is an amount of space. You can't have a negative duration than you can a negative volume.

No brains

2014-09-29, 09:07 PM

Which is fine, but duration is an amount of time, much as a cubic foot is an amount of space. You can't have a negative duration than you can a negative volume.

Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, and the special spatial 'splosion they make together want to have a very loud word with you. :smallbiggrin: Also if swallow whole scales with a creature's current size and not just its original size (or even if it does) you can end up with paradoxical amounts of space in a T-rex.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-29, 09:11 PM

Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, and the special spatial 'splosion they make together want to have a very loud word with you. :smallbiggrin: Also if swallow whole scales with a creature's current size and not just its original size (or even if it does) you can end up with paradoxical amounts of space in a T-rex.

No, that's just a matter of something being bigger on the inside; its internal volume is greater than its external volume, but neither is actually negative.

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-29, 09:27 PM

an overfilled container has negative space remaining.

Flickerdart

2014-09-29, 09:47 PM

an overfilled container has negative space remaining.
No, it doesn't. It has no space remaining, and the remainder of the filling is outside of the container.

The Random NPC

2014-09-29, 10:49 PM

Besides, with the magic involved, you could argue that there's no physics breaking. There's simply a 2 way portal to a larger volume attached to the mouth of the bag. As an aside, if I remember correctly, basements aren't counted for square footage, so there are many homes that are larger on the inside than on the outside.

Necroticplague

2014-09-29, 11:53 PM

duration is an amount of time, it does not have a direction, that is the issue with that. going back in time would mean it would still have a positive duration.

edit: i explained that poorly, it's like having negative 2 apples

Time does have a direction, just like breadth, height, and length. It has 2 directions: forward is a positive number, backwards is a negative number. Having -2 apples isn't really that hard, it just means that you have 2 objects that will cancel out the next apples you get.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-29, 11:57 PM

Time does have a direction, just like breadth, height, and length. It has 2 directions: forward is a positive number, backwards is a negative number.

/yes, time has a direction, as do space dimensions. However, length is not the same thing as position, nor is duration the same thing as time. You can say "this thing is located at -2 on the x axis", but not "this thing is -2 units long".

Having -2 apples isn't really that hard, it just means that you have 2 objects that will cancel out the next apples you get.

No, you have two things that cancel out apples. You could reasonably put "Apples: -2" in a ledger, but you no more have -2 apples than someone who owes someone else two apples.

EisenKreutzer

2014-09-30, 01:53 AM

NeoPhoenix0

2014-09-30, 02:20 AM

This is for Pathfinder, but it's kind of amusing.

A Ranger can dig a 30 foot deep hole and fill it with spikes as a full-round action, according to the trap creation rules.
This hole will magically vanish after 1 day/Ranger level.

well they are either magical (supernatural) or extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities can explicitly break the laws of physics.

EisenKreutzer

2014-09-30, 02:41 AM

well they are either magical (supernatural) or extraordinary, and extraordinary abilities can explicitly break the laws of physics.

I know, it's just funny because the traps were supposed to be a non-magic alternative for the Ranger.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-30, 02:59 AM

I know, it's just funny because the traps were supposed to be a non-magic alternative for the Ranger.

They are non-magical; that's the point. They violate the normal laws of physics, but so does a rogue being able to dodge an explosion that fills the entire room.

Tarlek Flamehai

2014-09-30, 04:32 AM

it's like haveing negative 2 apples

Anti-Matter Apples!!

Sith_Happens

2014-09-30, 05:28 AM

If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp).

Bolding mine. A no-save-just-die will work on the Tarrasque.

Mcdt2

2014-09-30, 04:38 PM

Got one from Pathfinder, although the exact level of dysfunction is arguable.

Clerics with the Artifice and Rune domains get Instant Summons at level 8 and 7 respectively. However, they are incapable of using it, as Clerics can not cast the required Arcane Mark, nor do the domains grant it or any way to negate this requirement. While they could probably just use a scroll and UMD, it seems unfair.

Jeff the Green

2014-09-30, 04:40 PM

Bolding mine. A no-save-just-die will work on the Tarrasque.

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

Flickerdart

2014-09-30, 04:52 PM

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?
I seem to recall a high-level spell that required a ranged touch attack and had SR: Yes, but no saving throw involved.

Necroticplague

2014-09-30, 05:01 PM

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?
Disintegrate. Even if you make the save, if it knocks you down low enough, it turns you to dust (ignoring the can of worms resulting from asking if that counts as dead). So apparently a tarrasque can be finished off by a Wish or Disintegrate when its K.O'd. I'm sure there are other spells that are similar to Disintegrate in nature.

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-30, 05:02 PM

Disintegrate. Even if you make the save, if it knocks you down low enough, it turns you to dust (ignoring the can of worms resulting from asking if that counts as dead). So apparently a tarrasque can be finished off by a Wish or Disintegrate when its K.O'd. I'm sure there are other spells that are similar to Disintegrate in nature.

disintegrate is a ray, so deflected.

No brains

2014-09-30, 05:09 PM

A mind flayer's eat brain attack is 'just die'. So I guess two wrongs do make a right. Lead the Tarrasque to an Illithid collective and watch it roll all over them. If everyone is lucky one of them just eats its brain after a decimation or two.

...

2014-09-30, 05:17 PM

nedz

2014-09-30, 05:23 PM

In Underdark, the material for the Low-Light Vision spell requires a candle as a material component. In most cases, if you had a candle, you could just use that instead of burning a first-level spell slot.

But Low-Light Vision just doubles the range of your other candles.

Fax Celestis

2014-09-30, 05:25 PM

Not to mention that a candle only lights a 5' square with bright light and shadowy illumination for another 5'. Pretty sure low-light vision will be more helpful than that.

Lightlawbliss

2014-09-30, 05:25 PM

In Underdark, the material for the Low-Light Vision spell requires a candle as a material component. In most cases, if you had a candle, you could just use that instead of burning a first-level spell slot.

low light vision is more vision then a candle.

wait, does that mean a spell component pouch contains candles?

edit: swordsaged

Sith_Happens

2014-09-30, 05:39 PM

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

Power Word Kill comes to mind, though it's not exactly practical since you'll need to have gotten Big T ~88% dead via trollbane-laced attacks already before it'll work (assuming that trollbane works on Big T, I forget whether it's technically a poison or not).

Fax Celestis

2014-09-30, 05:47 PM

Is Big T immune to suffocation? Because there's always aboleth mucus or crisis of breath.

Blasphemy with a ludicrously high CL (58+)?

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

...

2014-09-30, 06:02 PM

wait, does that mean a spell component pouch contains candles?

edit: swordsaged

Well, I guess it does. There should just be a thread about weird things in material component pouches.

Sith_Happens

2014-09-30, 06:05 PM

Is Big T immune to suffocation? Because there's always aboleth mucus or crisis of breath.

It is not immune, though there appears to be a RAW-Failure Sandwich surrounding whether suffocation kills it or knocks it to 858 nonlethal. On one hand, the Constitution check to hold your breath after the 2*CON-nth round is erroneously referred to as a "save." On the other hand, failing this "save" does not kill you instantly (it kills you three rounds later).

Blasphemy with a ludicrously high CL (58+)?

Definitely works.

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

Probably sent to a random plane, since there's a 20% chance of that happening anyways.

nedz

2014-09-30, 06:50 PM

Not to mention that a candle only lights a 5' square with bright light and shadowy illumination for another 5'. Pretty sure low-light vision will be more helpful than that.
Nope - twice as far in dim light.

Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Gemini476

2014-09-30, 08:36 PM

Or if you could figure out a way to give it the extraplanar subtype somehow (I think there's a spell or something somewhere), you could banish him. Since he's got no home plane, he'd probably...damn, I dunno. Turn into a vestige?

Ah, Incarnation of Angels. What a dysfunctional little utterance you are.

Zaq already has this in his Truenamer handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214115-In-the-Beginning-Was-the-Word-and-the-Word-Was-Suck-A-Guide-to-Truenamers), but I'll repost it here:

Check out the utterance Incarnation of Angels. There's nothing saying that the target must be willing, and there's no saving throw. If you head over to the Monster Manual and look at what the Celestial and Fiendish templates do, you see that they grant the target the [Extraplanar] subtype . . . which means you can pull out a scroll of Dismissal or Banishment (or nudge your Wizard/Cleric buddy and have them do the dirty work) and just get rid of whoever you cast Incarnation of Angels on. Where do they go? It doesn't say, but it's unambiguous that they have the [Extraplanar] tag and thus will be no longer your problem, at least not for a while.

Cheese Rating: 2/5. Incarnation of Angels is a pretty sucky utterance other than this, and it's not like Dismissal is guaranteed to work, especially if you're scrolling it. There are plenty of ways to say “if you fail a Will save, you're not my problem anymore,” and this one is pretty elaborate for what it does. The real problem with it is that there's no indication of where Dismissal actually sends them.

It's a DC 55 Truespeak No Save No SR ranged give-the-target-a-template ability. The big problem is that, beyond being pretty useless, nobody knows what happens when you banish a temporarily Celestial Tarrasque.

...Also, the save DC for Banishment is pretty screwed up.

NeoPhoenix0

2014-09-30, 11:20 PM

If you use that utterance they obviously go to the plane of "can't taste ice cream"

Necroticplague

2014-10-01, 07:35 AM

Only a minor dysfunction in rules (they work, but definitely not as intended), and another indicator that the people who write examples have no clue how the rules work.

Under Maho-tsukai, we have the Maho metamagic class feature, which reads as follows:
A maho-tsukai who learns metamagic feats can apply them by paying an additional cost in blood. By draining blood, the maho-tsukai can enhance her spells without using a higher-level spell slot. The cost is a number of points of temporary Constitution damage equal to the level of the metamagic spell. Thus, to cast a vampiric touch spell with the Empower Spell feat applied costs the maho-tsukai 5 points of temporary Constitution damage (3rd-level spell + two levels for Empower Spell). The maho-tsukai cannot enhance a spell to a level higher than he can cast by this means. For example, a maho-tsukai must be at least 9th level to cast an Empowered vampiric touch, even though the spell uses only a 3rd-level slot.

Apparently, whoever wrote this wasn't aware that metamagics other than Heighten and Sanctum, and their derivatives don't actually change a spell's level. So in the example given, is wrong, because an Empowered Vampiric Touch is still a third-level spell. And the last clause really only stops you from Heightening the spell above what you can cast,because anything else wouldn't raise the spell to a higher level at all. So technically, nothing stopping you from slathering all the metamagic you know on a cantrip for free (zero level spell=0 con damage).

And on an entirely related note, I think I've found a good new use for Strongheart Vests.

ShurikVch

2014-10-01, 07:56 AM

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect? Transcend Mortality (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/transcend-mortality--885/)

Corruption score 126+

Con 0

Negative levels

Life And Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath)

pi4t

2014-10-01, 01:30 PM

Gemini476

2014-10-01, 01:40 PM

nedz

2014-10-01, 01:51 PM

[3.5] If the floor isn't quite horizontal though, then you still fall prone — or if you sit down in a chair or something.

If you do not end your move on a horizontal surface, you fall prone, taking falling damage as appropriate for your distance above the ground.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-01, 02:23 PM

The "Up the Walls" feat of both 3.5 and Pathfinder only says that the surface that you're on at the end of your move has to be horizontal...not that you have to be on the upper side of it. Run up the wall and end your move on the ceiling and you'll be absolutely fine.
Prior to the invention of drywall board, ceilings were rarely flat horizontal expanses. At best you'd have exposed beams supporting the floor above, with narrow stretches of horizontal plastered ceiling between.

Flickerdart

2014-10-01, 02:34 PM

The "Up the Walls" feat of both 3.5 and Pathfinder only says that the surface that you're on at the end of your move has to be horizontal...not that you have to be on the upper side of it. Run up the wall and end your move on the ceiling and you'll be absolutely fine.
This is widely perpetuated, but still wrong. "Up the Walls" doesn't have permissive text for staying on surfaces. All it says is, if you're not on a horizontal surface, you fall. The feat has nothing to say about what happens when you end your turn on a horizontal surface, so you default to the existing rules, which don't let you stand on ceilings, and so you fall down.

Sith_Happens

2014-10-03, 06:03 PM

Huh. What things (other than Irresistible Spell) have a no-save-just-die effect?

Update: The second paragraph of the Tarrasque's regeneration either solves the dysfunction or compounds it, I can't tell which:

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

So, with this in mind, if you hit it with a no-save-just-die, what happens?:smallconfused:

Fax Celestis

2014-10-03, 06:14 PM

rockdeworld

2014-10-03, 06:39 PM

So, with this in mind, if you hit it with a no-save-just-die, what happens?:smallconfused:
By RAW, it doesn't die.

bekeleven

2014-10-03, 06:41 PM

By RAW, it doesn't die.

Or it dies, but isn't slain.

Gemini476

2014-10-03, 07:51 PM

Well, considering the text seems to think that regeneration keeps working after it dies (due to the "keep it" dead bit), I suppose slay living or whatever would put it at -10, and then it would just...regen to positive?
Speaking of abilities working after death, is that a thing? I mean, a corpse is a creature with the Dead condition and not an object, right? Or did I get that wrong?

Would permanent abilities like a Golem's spell immunity still stick around after death, assuming that said golem somehow had the ability to die rather than be "destroyed"?
The soul of the creature has left their body and their HP is constantly reset to -10 from the Dead condition and they're unconscious because of their nonlethal damage exceeding their hit points, but would abilities that don't rely on all that still be active?

This seems like something that really should have been clarified at some point.

Erik Vale

2014-10-05, 11:21 PM

Venger

2014-10-05, 11:47 PM

outcast champion's aura of confidence is lost when you go unconscious or die. it never says when it comes back, so presumably the first time you are killed or take a nap, you lose the class feature.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-06, 12:29 AM

outcast champion's aura of confidence is lost when you go unconscious or die. it never says when it comes back, so presumably the first time you are killed or take a nap, you lose the class feature.
Nah, this is saved by being Extraordinary.
Aura of Confidence (Ex): Your presence emboldens allies within 30 feet who can see you (including yourself). They add your class level as a morale bonus on their Will saves. This effect is lost if you fall unconscious or die.
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. It's automatically back up whenever you're not unconscious/dead.

Rubik

2014-10-06, 06:21 PM

Venger

2014-10-06, 06:28 PM

Gemini476

2014-10-06, 07:30 PM

Ksheep

2014-10-06, 09:40 PM

Shapesand can be reshaped into anything non-masterwork by passing a wisdom check [DC 16, take 20]
It costs 8.3[Cont]gp to the pound.
Platinum costs 50gp to the pound. With which you by get the masterwork thing.

Not really. Shapesand objects are "made of sand, but serve as a normal item of the same sort." You try to craft a Platinum coin with Shapesand, you now have a coin which is made of sand. It doesn't gain the value of the item that it is mimicking, it only gains the functionality.

geekintheground

2014-10-06, 09:47 PM

Not really. Shapesand objects are "made of sand, but serve as a normal item of the same sort." You try to craft a Platinum coin with Shapesand, you now have a coin which is made of sand. It doesn't gain the value of the item that it is mimicking, it only gains the functionality.

isnt the function of a platinum coin IN its value? or at least, one of its functions?

Inevitability

2014-10-07, 12:45 AM

Curmudgeon

2014-10-07, 12:52 AM

Banishment's material component is 'an item distasteful to the target'.

A component pouch contains 'all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.'

So when someone casts Banishment, he can just pull out several dozen distasteful items beforehand, then gain +30 bonus to his safe DC. This seems not what the designers intended.
I'm afraid you've misread the spell, and there's no dysfunction. Firstly, that's a focus, not a material component.
Arcane Focus: Any item that is distasteful to the subject (optional, see above). Secondly, this focus is not needed, and thus is not to be found in a spell component pouch.

deuxhero

2014-10-07, 01:13 AM

Did this get touched upon in the premium rerelease, or was it glossed over?

The what now?

Curmudgeon

2014-10-07, 01:25 AM

The what now?
The Premium Player's Handbook has a few unadvertised changes: it's not just a combination of the original book plus errata.

Inevitability

2014-10-07, 02:52 AM

I'm afraid you've misread the spell, and there's no dysfunction. Firstly, that's a focus, not a material component.

Fine. Foci are still in the pouch though.

Secondly, this focus is not needed, and thus is not to be found in a spell component pouch.

The definition of 'needed' is: 'to require or want'. I really want a bunch of items distasteful to the target...

Also, it could be argued that those items are 'needed' to survive, as things currently aren't looking good for you.

georgie_leech

2014-10-07, 04:24 AM

Fine. Foci are still in the pouch though.

The definition of 'needed' is: 'to require or want'. I really want a bunch of items distasteful to the target...

Also, it could be argued that those items are 'needed' to survive, as things currently aren't looking good for you.

Frankly, if a dysfunction requires that needing be treated as if "needing" a new computer is as important as "needing" air to breathe, you're squinting pretty hard. :smalltongue:

bekeleven

2014-10-07, 04:41 AM

Frankly, if a dysfunction requires that needing be treated as if "needing" a new computer is as important as "needing" air to breathe, you're squinting pretty hard. :smalltongue:

Side note: If you can't speak in a vacuum, then the spell component pouch does contain infinite air.

georgie_leech

2014-10-07, 04:53 AM

Side note: If you can't speak in a vacuum, then the spell component pouch does contain infinite air.

SCP's do nothing to ensure you can meet verbal components, just material.

nedz

2014-10-07, 07:29 AM

SCP's do nothing to ensure you can meet verbal components, just material.

Otherwise they would contain a spare pair of arms too.

Venger

2014-10-07, 07:43 AM

Otherwise they would contain a spare pair of arms too.

well, they do contain an endless supply of severed hands and endless supplies of octopus/squid tentacles (evard's black tentacles) so you could stick the hands on the end of that with some glue (stick)

Necroticplague

2014-10-07, 07:44 AM

Otherwise they would contain a spare pair of arms too.

Eh, not really, arms aren't needed to cast.

Coincidentally, because of that, surrogate spellcasting does nothing, thanks to being built into the spell rules.
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person.plus

A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. Mean that anything that can move and understand language (thus enabling it to speak in a strong voice in its head) is capable of casting. So the only things surrogate spellcasting works for is a creature that doesn't understand language, but somehow has class levels.

Sub-dysfunction of above: it says to provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak, and implicitely do so. It never says you actually have to speak out loud.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-07, 09:09 AM

Sub-dysfunction of above: it says to provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak, and implicitely do so. It never says you actually have to speak out loud.
Yeah, it does. Might I suggest a more thorough reading of Player's Handbook? From page 140:
Spell Components: To cast a spell with a verbal (V) component, your character must speak in a firm voice. If you’re gagged or in the area of a silence spell, you can’t cast such a spell. A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell he tries to cast if that spell has a verbal component.

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied (swimming, clinging to a cliff, or the like). Elsewhere in the book (page 170) it specifies that you must have the capabilities. But 30 pages earlier it had already stated that you must actually perform those actions.

Chronos

2014-10-07, 01:45 PM

Isn't Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species, though? Maybe 3.0 didn't have the rule that you could make somatic components with other body parts.

zergling.exe

2014-10-08, 03:41 PM

In the Weapon Group Feats alternate rules from Unearthed Arcana. You can only gain proficiency with spears if you take the druid category; the Spears and Lances group only includes long- and shortspears, not regular ones.

Telok

2014-10-08, 06:50 PM

If you check the standard druid you'll find that they are proficent with spears. But not long spears.

I don't recall offhand if they are proficent with short speats, but I want to say no.

zergling.exe

2014-10-08, 10:55 PM

If you check the standard druid you'll find that they are proficent with spears. But not long spears.

I don't recall offhand if they are proficent with short speats, but I want to say no.

You missed it.

Weapon Group (Druid Weapons)
You understand how to use weapons favored by druids.
Benefit:You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear.

Weapon Group (Spears and Lances)
You understand how to use spears and javelins.
Benefit:You make attack rolls with the following weapons normally: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, and trident.

Spears highlighted. No other groups grant proficiency with the spear either, and I don't believe any errata was released for the 3.5 version of Unearthed Arcana.

Edit: I would like to point out an error in the handbook i just noticed: it says that Necropolitans are healed by both Cure and Inflict spells, this is untrue. As undead creatures they are harmed by Cure spells by the fact that they specifically point out that they harm undead. How this has persisted the last 5 threads I'm unsure.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-08, 11:47 PM

Nets also aren't available through weapon groups.

Erik Vale

2014-10-08, 11:51 PM

Edit: I would like to point out an error in the handbook i just noticed: it says that Necropolitans are healed by both Cure and Inflict spells, this is untrue. As undead creatures they are harmed by Cure spells by the fact that they specifically point out that they harm undead. How this has persisted the last 5 threads I'm unsure.

Specific trumps general, if it says Nercropolitans are healed by cure spells they're healed by cure spells despite the general harms undead.

zergling.exe

2014-10-09, 12:11 AM

Specific trumps general, if it says Nercropolitans are healed by cure spells they're healed by cure spells despite the general harms undead.

Where does it say that Cure spells heal them? Unnatural Resistance notes that they recover hit point and ability damage at the same rate as living creatures (ie. natural healing, as they are intelligent undead), but I don't see anything specifying that they are healed by Cure spells.

Which gives us another dysfunction! All other intelligent undead have their natural healing increased by the Heal skill, unless that is normal? :smalltongue:

Edit: Hmm, going back to the origin of this 'dysfunction', it was even clarified in discussion that it only applies to positive energy effects that don't have the 'harms undead' clause in them; poor translation into the handbook it seems.

Nets also aren't available through weapon groups.

Not as problematic as not being able to use spears, when was the last time you wanted to use a net?

deuxhero

2014-10-10, 01:21 AM

Pathfinder doesn't agree if the negatives to ability scores are "penalties" or simple decreases. Every source (Age Resistance spell line, Mantle of Immortality, Sands of Time, Nacreous Gray Sphere, Threefold Aspect, Cairn Linnorm's curse, Immortality arcane discovery, one of the possible results of drinking Strange Fluids from a spaceship and the Monk and Druid's Timeless Body ability from a quick check) EXCEPT the age rules themselves (which say "physical ability scores decrease") calls them a penalty.

This is actually important for a number of things, such as if an age lowered con score reduces your HP total or qualifications. If they are penalties, there's a sub-dysfunction that in Pathfinder ability damage/drain/penalties instead of directly subtracting from your scores have negatives for every two points so middle age only makes you slightly more vulnerable to ability score penalties and is otherwise a boon.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-10, 01:44 AM

Not as problematic as not being able to use spears, when was the last time you wanted to use a net?

Frequently, actually. It's a ranged touch attack that entangles and is hard to escape from. It's particularly nice to keep someone from running away while you whack them with a reach weapon. Granted, the nonproficiency penalty hurts much less here than with other weapons (since it's a touch attack), but it's still a dysfunction.

deuxhero

2014-10-12, 10:49 PM

The PF downtime spell research rules in Ultimate Campaign (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell) don't include the normal "cantrips are considered 1/2 spells for this purpose" clause most/all effects based on a multiple of spell level have. This means you can instantly research cantrips for no cost.

The Premium Player's Handbook has a few unadvertised changes: it's not just a combination of the original book plus errata.

Interesting. Is there a list (or at least some examples) of such changes out there?

Curmudgeon

2014-10-12, 11:04 PM

Interesting. Is there a list (or at least some examples) of such changes out there?
I don't own a copy of the book myself, but I do have one example: the Spring Attack feat.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Gemini476

2014-10-13, 12:03 AM

The PF downtime spell research rules in Ultimate Campaign (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime#TOC-Research-a-Spell) don't include the normal "cantrips are considered 1/2 spells for this purpose" clause most/all effects based on a multiple of spell level have. This means you can instantly research cantrips for no cost.

I don't know how dysfunctional that really is, to be honest. Don't the classes with unlimited spells known know all cantrips anyway? And the ones who have limited spells known still have limited spells known.

So what's the purpose of researching cantrips?

Qwertystop

2014-10-13, 12:24 AM

I don't know how dysfunctional that really is, to be honest. Don't the classes with unlimited spells known know all cantrips anyway? And the ones who have limited spells known still have limited spells known.

So what's the purpose of researching cantrips?

Spell research includes developing new spells. Basically, your class list of cantrips goes from "these are weak spells you can use as much as you want" to "Do whatever, within this general power level." Prestidigitation is no longer "Least Wish," because just having cantrips is that.

I'm not sure if that's actually a problem, of course - they've already got a wide variety of infinite-use minor magic tricks, widening it a bit more is just thematic - but I doubt it was intended, or they'd have just said so outright.

The Random NPC

2014-10-13, 12:38 AM

Also the research rules allow you to add spells to your spells known.

ShurikVch

2014-10-13, 09:05 AM

"Ravenous" template for undead (Dr#319): "if Ravenous creature slays a living creature, it immediately starts eating it (WillNeg, DC15). While eating, the Ravenous creature looses its Dexterity bonus to AC & does not make Attacks of Opportunity." Template that can be applied to Corporeal Undead... including skeletons, fossils, and so on! :smallbiggrin:

Fortunately, another template for undead, "Fleshvigor" (Dr#315), with it's Cannibalistic Healing, can be applied only to "corporeal non-Skeletal Undead"... Except... you know... that one small undead from the Libris Mortis... Raiment
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/libris_gallery/84766.jpg

Spell Undeath after Death (Player’s Guide to Faerûn):
When it dies, the corrupted life force initiates a slow change in its body, causing it to animate as a crypt spawn at the next sunset (see Chapter 6 in Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn). Nor Chapter 6, nor any other chapter of MC: MoF have this template

Improved Oneiromancy feat (Heroes of Horror) required Dreamcasting, whatever it is... (Probably, Dreamtelling :smallwink: )

Dragons of Krynn, Black Dragonspawn Racial Traits:
Breath Weapon (Su): A black dragonspawn as a breath weapon in the form of a line of acid (60 ft. long, 4d4 fire, Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 black dragonspawn’s Hit Dice + black dragonspawn’s Constitution modifier) that it may use once every 2d4 rounds. :smallconfused: Acid which do fire damage...

Inevitability

2014-10-13, 02:08 PM

:smallconfused: Acid which do fire damage...

One of the developers must've taken the concept of 'chemical burns' quite literally. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon

2014-10-13, 03:29 PM

Dragons of Krynn, Black Dragonspawn Racial Traits: :smallconfused: Acid which do fire damage...
Already been fixed. The Dragonspawn from Dragonlance Campaign Setting and elsewhere have been updated in Bestiary of Krynn, Revised on pages 43-48. (An interesting rules case there, with a non-D&D book containing an official update for a D&D source.)

ShurikVch

2014-10-13, 03:38 PM

Already been fixed. The Dragonspawn from Dragonlance Campaign Setting and elsewhere have been updated in Bestiary of Krynn, Revised on pages 43-48. (An interesting rules case there, with a non-D&D book containing an official update for a D&D source.) How can book released in Nov, 2006 (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised) fix book released in Sep 2007 (Dragons of Krynn)? :smallconfused:

Curmudgeon

2014-10-13, 03:55 PM

How can book released in Nov, 2006 (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised) fix book released in Sep 2007 (Dragons of Krynn)? :smallconfused:
No, it can only fix Dragonlance Campaign Setting. However, it can show that the entry in Dragons of Krynn is just a typo rather than a dysfunction. You need to address the discrepancy between the full Dragonspawn breath weapon energy type (page 119, fire, which you referred to) and the afflicted (not fully realized) Dragonspawn breath weapon energy type (page 123, acid) anyway, and Bestiary of Krynn, Revised shows that it is just a typo.

ShurikVch

2014-10-13, 04:07 PM

No, it can only fix Dragonlance Campaign Setting. However, it can show that the entry in Dragons of Krynn is just a typo rather than a dysfunction. You need to address the discrepancy between the full Dragonspawn breath weapon energy type (page 119, fire, which you referred to) and the afflicted (not fully realized) Dragonspawn breath weapon energy type (page 123, acid) anyway, and Bestiary of Krynn, Revised shows that it is just a typo. I fully understand it
(It's just too funny to be true!)
But until the Errata it's RAW, and belong in this thread

Sith_Happens

2014-10-13, 04:10 PM

Also the research rules allow you to add spells to your spells known.

The hilarious part is, this isn't even one of those dysfunctions that you have to squint to notice, it's written clear as day:

When your days of progress equal the total number of days needed, the spell is completed and added to your spellbook or list of spells known.

Qwertystop

2014-10-13, 05:10 PM

The hilarious part is, this isn't even one of those dysfunctions that you have to squint to notice, it's written clear as day:

So in other words, that dysfunction equates to "spontaneous casters have an infinite variety of cantrips."

Really not sure why that's a problem, like I said above.

Sith_Happens

2014-10-13, 07:05 PM

So in other words, that dysfunction equates to "spontaneous casters have an infinite variety of cantrips."

Really not sure why that's a problem, like I said above.

It also means that they can know as many spells of any other level as they have the time and money to learn. Not that I think that's a problem either, but it's most certainly not what Paizo intended.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 10:13 AM

Here's a new one: if you advance Ur-Priest casting with another class, you gain 1.5 caster levels per level, better than just staying in the class.

The ur-priest spell list is identical to the cleric spell list. An ur-priest has access to any spell on the list and prepares those spells as a cleric, except that he does not pray for spells, he just takes them. An ur-priest casts spells as a cleric does, except that unlike a cleric, he does not have the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells, nor does he have domain spells or associated domain granted powers. He does not have restrictions on spells with alignments. To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)

Lightlawbliss

2014-10-14, 10:29 AM

Here's a new one: if you advance Ur-Priest casting with another class, you gain 1.5 caster levels per level, better than just staying in the class.

so you can get 9ths sooner?

nedz

2014-10-14, 10:42 AM

Here's a new one: if you advance Ur-Priest casting with another class, you gain 1.5 caster levels per level, better than just staying in the class.

I don't think that this works. The PRCs which advance UP are not themselves spellcasting classes. Theurges don't even help here.

so you can get 9ths sooner?
No, we are talking about CL here.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 11:05 AM

I don't think that this works. The PRCs which advance UP are not themselves spellcasting classes. Theurges don't even help here.

If that's the case, that makes a lot of other things break. Craft Contingent Spell, for instance, has a prerequisite of "spellcaster level 11th", which would mean you'd have to have 11 levels in a base class to qualify.

Dimers

2014-10-14, 11:06 AM

The Shatter spell auto-destroys nonmagical objects when the spell is cast as an AoE.

Creatures, when targeted directly, take damage.

Objects, when targeted directly, asdfailkjaisdou-0912u34on09189023l4kn

[404 auto-cucumber error; variable undefined]

Huh? "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level." This comes directly after the paragraph on what happens to objects when targeted by AoE, so the same effect happens when targeted directly: "smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell."

The only dysfunction here is shattering ropes, globs of toothpaste, puddles of liquid water, and other non-rigid objects. What's a "piece" of a puddle? Not a significant issue, just linguistically wrong.

nedz

2014-10-14, 12:25 PM

If that's the case, that makes a lot of other things break. Craft Contingent Spell, for instance, has a prerequisite of "spellcaster level 11th", which would mean you'd have to have 11 levels in a base class to qualify.

No it wouldn't. There are differences between Caster Level, Spellcaster Level and Levels in Spellcasting Classes — these can all have different values.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 12:29 PM

No it wouldn't. There are differences between Caster Level, Spellcaster Level and Levels in Spellcasting Classes — these can all have different values.

So your argument is that a class that gives "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" and has a "Spellcasting" class feature isn't a level in a spellcasting class?

Lightlawbliss

2014-10-14, 12:37 PM

neds: your counter is weak at best. Do you have a stronger argument?

bekeleven

2014-10-14, 01:36 PM

So your argument is that a class that gives "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" and has a "Spellcasting" class feature isn't a level in a spellcasting class?

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.If any class that advances spells/day is a spellcasting class, then you can advance two theurges with a theurge. I've seen TO builds based on this and you get 9s in a dozen classes by the end.

For this reason and a small handful of others, I've generally seen "Spellcasting class" defined as one with a a spell progression. They increase your caster level (as levels in the base class would), but do not count as a spellcasting class themselves.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 01:39 PM

If any class that advances spells/day is a spellcasting class, then you can advance two theurges with a theurge. I've seen TO builds based on this and you get 9s in a dozen classes by the end.

For this reason and a small handful of others, I've generally seen "Spellcasting class" defined as one with a a spell progression. They increase your caster level (as levels in the base class would), but do not count as a spellcasting class themselves.

So how do you handle, eg., Craft Contingent Spell's "spellcaster level 11th"? Caster level 11 doesn't count: that's different. You need to actually have eleven spellcaster levels, of which a prestige class using your ruling doesn't count towards.

nedz

2014-10-14, 03:29 PM

So your argument is that a class that gives "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" and has a "Spellcasting" class feature isn't a level in a spellcasting class?

It gives you an extra level of casting in your arcane base class — which satisfies Craft Contingent Spell — but is not, in itself, a Spellcasting Class.

Spellcasting Classes have their own spell progression, e.g. Ranger, Wizard, Ur Priest etc.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 03:34 PM

Telok

2014-10-14, 04:30 PM

Ranger is a spellcasting class, but Archmage isn't...

If you can get the me a page number for that I'll consider it a major dysfunction. Major.

Archmage, not a spellcasting...
Divide by zero error. Reboot.

nedz

2014-10-14, 05:01 PM

Care to show me where that's defined?

You have to read the various PRC descriptions, for example

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously.
...
Advancement
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
etc.
MT has no spells of it's own — it advances other spellcasting classes.

Gemini476

2014-10-14, 05:06 PM

You have to read the various PRC descriptions, for example

MT has no spells of it's own — it advances other spellcasting classes.
So would the Mystic Theurge increase the Spellcaster Level of a Wizard? As in his Wizard Spellcaster Level specifically. And +1,5/level to Ur-Priest, I suppose, but that's not all that dysfunctional I think?

Fax Celestis

2014-10-14, 05:15 PM

You have to read the various PRC descriptions, for example

MT has no spells of it's own — it advances other spellcasting classes.

It doesn't need to. It has a class feature that provides spellcasting, even if it is spellcasting based on another class' spellcasting.

Namfuak

2014-10-14, 06:28 PM

It gives you an extra level of casting in your arcane base class — which satisfies Craft Contingent Spell — but is not, in itself, a Spellcasting Class.

Spellcasting Classes have their own spell progression, e.g. Ranger, Wizard, Ur Priest etc.

I agree with you that only classes which actually grant their own spells ought to be considered "spellcasting classes" for the purpose of consistency, but I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too by arguing that Craft Contingent Spell is not dysfunctional under this rule. We have three terms here, "Caster Level," "Spellcaster Level," and "Spellcasting Class." Clearly if the designers intended to use "Caster level" they would have used it, so it seems to me that your "Spellcaster level" is equivalent to the number of "Spellcasting class" levels you have.

Sith_Happens

2014-10-14, 06:33 PM

Care to show me where that's defined?

Nowhere. Add it to the handbook.

Necroticplague

2014-10-14, 06:40 PM

Actually, you could make an arguement that theurges and similar PRCs count as spellcasting classes but wizards don't, because Wizards don't have a "Spellcasting" class feature, while theurges do. Wizards, instead, have the "Spells" class feature.

Inevitability

2014-10-17, 09:27 AM

The Ability Rip spell can be used to transfer a supernatural ability to a creature with 2 HD and no supernatural abilities, like a wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm).

Now say you capture a wolf and a Choker (because why not), tie them down, and transfer the Choker's Quickness to the wolf. The moment the wolf gains the ability, he loses both of his HD, leaving him with none.

Seems rather dysfunctional, doesn't it? Or is there a rule detailing what happens to a creature without HD?

Of course, the spell is from Serpent Kingdoms, so we probably should've known it was going to be broken. :smalltongue:

Inevitability

2014-10-17, 09:33 AM

Bonus dysfunction: Aboleth Curse has a material component, but it is never said what this component is. It simply says: Components: V, S, M and then fails to tell us what this 'M' component is.

Chronos

2014-10-17, 11:15 AM

A creature with zero HD dies. If there's no other rule for it, it'll die because it has a number of negative levels equal to its HD.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-17, 11:28 AM

A creature with zero HD dies. If there's no other rule for it, it'll die because it has a number of negative levels equal to its HD.
Yes, this is true. However, why would you think it's a dysfunction? You also don't have any HP (aren't alive) without any HD.

Necroticplague

2014-10-17, 11:49 AM

A creature with zero HD dies. If there's no other rule for it, it'll die because it has a number of negative levels equal to its HD.

And then arise as a wight later. So you can shove so much power into a fragile enough creature, it becomes one of the undead?

*Begins furiously writing campaign ideas notes*

Lightlawbliss

2014-10-17, 12:33 PM

And then arise as a wight later. So you can shove so much power into a fragile enough creature, it becomes one of the undead?

*Begins furiously writing campaign ideas notes*

I believe that is only caused by some sources of negitive levels.

Also, where does it say that a creature with 0 HD dies because of it? I know you die if negative levels equal your HD, But I don't remember ever seeing a rules about 0 HD. I would assume you would have 0 HP (0 rolls for HP + 0*con) and would therefor follow the rules for that.

Necroticplague

2014-10-17, 12:47 PM

I believe that is only caused by some sources of negitive levels.Try again, its oddly enough true.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Also, where does it say that a creature with 0 HD dies because of it? I know you die if negative levels equal your HD, But I don't remember ever seeing a rules about 0 HD. I would assume you would have 0 HP (0 rolls for HP + 0*con) and would therefor follow the rules for that.

My above quote covers that as well. At 0 HD, you have negative levels(0)=your level(0), which means you die (and rise up as a wight).

Lightlawbliss

2014-10-17, 12:55 PM

Try again, its oddly enough true.

My above quote covers that as well. At 0 HD, you have negative levels(0)=your level(0), which means you die (and rise up as a wight).

I stand corrected. Surprised, but corrected. Enjoy making an undead army out of insignificant animals.

Edit: on closer reading, I noticed that that rule says "character", so it doesn't apply to all creatures. So that rule may be dysfunctional.

Qwertystop

2014-10-17, 12:59 PM

I stand corrected. Surprised, but corrected. Enjoy making an undead army out of insignificant animals.

Note that since "Wight" is a creature, not a template, it's a good bit more significant of an army than you'd think. Also doesn't look much like the source animals.

That one was probably covered a while ago, but still. Relevant.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-17, 01:02 PM

I stand corrected. Surprised, but corrected. Enjoy making an undead army out of insignificant animals.

A wight’s appearance is a weird and twisted reflection of the form it had in life. A wight is about the height and weight of a human. So a Tiny size Rat (¼ d8 HD) killed by taking a negative level becomes a Wight, gaining the height and weight of a Human, and 4 d12 HD. :smalleek:

Necroticplague

2014-10-17, 01:04 PM

Note that since "Wight" is a creature, not a template, it's a good bit more significant of an army than you'd think. Also doesn't look much like the source animals.

That one was probably covered a while ago, but still. Relevant.

*opens libris mortis to try and point out Monster Class as correction*
*Notices that that class is preceded by racial traits, not template qualifications*

Huh. Now that is severely screwed up.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-17, 01:05 PM

Edit: on closer reading, I noticed that that rule says "character", so it doesn't apply to all creatures. So that rule may be dysfunctional. From the Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_character&alpha=C):
character

A fictional individual within the confines of a fantasy game setting. The words "character" and "creature" are often used synonymously within these rules, since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature (as opposed to an object).

Venger

2014-10-17, 01:27 PM

So a Tiny size Rat (¼ d8 HD) killed by taking a negative level becomes a Wight, gaining the height and weight of a Human, and 4 d12 HD. :smalleek:

Unholy arrows, two for a dollar. Get 'em while they're hot.

bekeleven

2014-10-17, 02:22 PM

So how do you handle, eg., Craft Contingent Spell's "spellcaster level 11th"? Caster level 11 doesn't count: that's different. You need to actually have eleven spellcaster levels, of which a prestige class using your ruling doesn't count towards.
How on earth are caster level and spellcaster level different, anyway? Nobody ever explained that.

MT advances two spellcasting progressions without being a spellcasting class. Makes perfect sense to me that it would advance to spellcasting levels, AKA caster levels, as well.

Are people trying to argue that spellcaster level is a sum of all caster levels or something? Because that gets even sillier.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 02:30 PM

How on earth are caster level and spellcaster level different, anyway? Nobody ever explained that.

MT advances two spellcasting progressions without being a spellcasting class. Makes perfect sense to me that it would advance to spellcasting levels, AKA caster levels, as well.

Are people trying to argue that spellcaster level is a sum of all caster levels or something? Because that gets even sillier.

The only argument I'm making is that "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" makes a prestige class a spellcasting class.

bekeleven

2014-10-17, 02:35 PM

The only argument I'm making is that "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" makes a prestige class a spellcasting class.

Your objection to me saying otherwise was that craft contingent wouldn't work.

I'm saying it would work.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 02:49 PM

Your objection to me saying otherwise was that craft contingent wouldn't work.

I'm saying it would work.

So "spellcaster level" and "caster level" are interchangeable terms. Why, then, would a class that isn't a spellcasting class increase spellcaster level?

bekeleven

2014-10-17, 03:34 PM

So "spellcaster level" and "caster level" are interchangeable terms. Why, then, would a class that isn't a spellcasting class increase spellcaster level?

Spells per Day

When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.If spellcaster level and caster level are interchangeable terms, then a class that increases caster level increases spellcaster level.

The problem here is that "Spellcaster Level" is never defined in the rules. In my opinion, setting "Spellcaster level" to "Caster level for your spells" is the most natural thing to do. I mean, all the words are there.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 03:36 PM

If spellcaster level and caster level are interchangeable terms, then a class that increases caster level increases spellcaster level.

The problem here is that "Spellcaster Level" is never defined in the rules. In my opinion, setting "Spellcaster level" to "Caster level for your spells" is the most natural thing to do. I mean, all the words are there.

So you agree with me then that mystic theurge is a spellcasting class?

bekeleven

2014-10-17, 03:44 PM

So you agree with me then that mystic theurge is a spellcasting class?

MT isn't a spellcasting class. Instead it's increasing the spellcasting of another class. Similar to how, say, moonspeaker isn't a wild shaping class. It just stacks on your druid levels. Or how radiant servant of pelor isn't an undead-turning class, it just gives you effective cleric levels to your turning ability. Natural bond doesn't give you an animal companion, either.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 03:59 PM

MT isn't a spellcasting class. Instead it's increasing the spellcasting of another class. Similar to how, say, moonspeaker isn't a wild shaping class. It just stacks on your druid levels. Or how radiant servant of pelor isn't an undead-turning class, it just gives you effective cleric levels to your turning ability. Natural bond doesn't give you an animal companion, either.

And that's where I disagree. My view is, "Does the class give or advance spellcasting? If yes, it is a spellcasting class.", while yours is, "Does the class give spellcasting? If yes, it is a spellcasting class." My breakdown is that I don't really understand why you hold the view you do. "Because it's breakable using your reading" isn't a valid option: there are plenty of things that are broken if read in the way they're written and require common sense to make functional.

(unrelated, but moonspeaker is a wildshaping class no matter how you slice it, considering it flat-out says "you gain wild shape":

Wild Shape (Su): Beginning at 5th level, you can change into an animal and back again once per day. With the blessing of the moon Olarune, said to watch over shapechangers, you gain the wild shape ability as a 5th-level druid (see page 37 of the Player's Handbook). You use your moonspeaker level as your effective druid level to determine the ability's duration, Hit Dice limit, and size categories (though you don't gain the ability to wild shape into forms other than animals). If you already possess the wild shape ability, you add your moonspeaker level —4 to your druid level to determine the duration, HD limit, and size categories for your wild shape ability.
...and wild shape is not required to enter.)

nedz

2014-10-17, 04:00 PM

Here's an extract from the SRD which clears this up nicely.

Prestige Classes
Definitions Of Terms

Caster Level
Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class. Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class.

Class Level
The level of a character in a particular class. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same.

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 04:07 PM

Here's an extract from the SRD which clears this up nicely.

That...clears up nothing, which is the reason, I hope, you used blue.

deuxhero

2014-10-17, 04:54 PM

How on earth are caster level and spellcaster level different, anyway? Nobody ever explained that.

MT advances two spellcasting progressions without being a spellcasting class. Makes perfect sense to me that it would advance to spellcasting levels, AKA caster levels, as well.

Are people trying to argue that spellcaster level is a sum of all caster levels or something? Because that gets even sillier.

In 3.5? No difference at all.

PF? Alchemists (and investigators?) have a "caster level" but not a "spellcaster level".

Fax Celestis

2014-10-17, 05:07 PM

In 3.5? No difference at all.

Actually, the faq disagrees with you there:

What effect would the Practiced Spellcaster feat (CAr 82) have on a warlock?
A strict reading of the feat’s benefit indicates that the warlock would gain no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster. The warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes—the exception noted on page 18 of CAr applies only to prestige class benefits—and thus it could not be selected as the class to be affected by this feat.

Necroticplague

2014-10-17, 05:20 PM

Also, I'm pretty sure 3.5 Artificer is in the same boat as Alchemist for similar reasons. They don't cast spells, they use Infusions. Admittingly, my knowledge of artificers is patchy at best.

nedz

2014-10-17, 05:22 PM

That...clears up nothing, which is the reason, I hope, you used blue.
Yes, quite — though the line Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class. might be useful, or there again maybe not ?

Actually, the faq disagrees with you there:

FAQ is not RAW, however the quote was more useful than it seems.
It points us at CArc, which IIRC is a primary source for this sort of thing.
CArc p72 defines Caster Level and Spellcasting Level — unfortunately this is in the context of qualifying for PrCs :smallannoyed:

Many of us think we understand how this stuff has to work, but it is very unclear by RAW. I'm inclined to call dysfunction on this basis.

Sith_Happens

2014-10-17, 05:36 PM

The Arcane Hierophant's Companion Familiar feature requires you to dismiss your existing familiar if you have one. However, your animal companion is not then considered to also be your familiar, it merely "gains many of the abilities that a familiar would normally possess." Which means that you can summon a new familiar and have it at the same time as your familiar companion.

Jeff the Green

2014-10-17, 06:22 PM

Inevitability

2014-10-18, 04:15 AM

The Burial Blessing spell is cleric-only and [good], yet it talks about evil clerics using the spell.

TypoNinja

2014-10-18, 04:49 AM

Yes, quite — though the line Some prestige classes add caster levels to an existing class. might be useful, or there again maybe not ?

FAQ is not RAW, however the quote was more useful than it seems.
It points us at CArc, which IIRC is a primary source for this sort of thing.
CArc p72 defines Caster Level and Spellcasting Level — unfortunately this is in the context of qualifying for PrCs :smallannoyed:

Many of us think we understand how this stuff has to work, but it is very unclear by RAW. I'm inclined to call dysfunction on this basis.

It actually further spells out the differences, for trying to use SLA's to qualfiy for PrC's. Having an SLA lets you qualify for PrC's that want that spell, or even a caster level, but do not let you qualify for a PrC that is looking for spellcasting levels or "Ability to cast X Level Spells" It also notes that the same logic works for magic item creation feats. Its not only talking about PrC's there, it just started with PrC's cause its pretty much the only time it matters.

SPELLCASTING
LEVEL
Beyond the limits of magical power, a spellcasting level requirement measures the size and complexity of the spells that can be encompassed within a character’s mind. As spells increase in level, they become exponentially more complicated, requiring a discipline of thought and an understanding of principles impossible for low-level characters to learn. Wizards master these advanced principles through careful study; sorcerers and other spontaneous arcane casters intuit what they need to know as their spellcasting experience grows. Characters or creatures that use spell-like abilities or invocations never learn the arcane circumlocutions of logic and mental training necessary for advanced spellcasting. As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on speciﬁc levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a speciﬁc arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.

Spellcasting levels are specifically tied to classes that grant spellcasting, where as Caster Levels are a measurement of the power/effectiveness of magical abiltites in general.

And that's where I disagree. My view is, "Does the class give or advance spellcasting? If yes, it is a spellcasting class.", while yours is, "Does the class give spellcasting? If yes, it is a spellcasting class." My breakdown is that I don't really understand why you hold the view you do. "Because it's breakable using your reading" isn't a valid option: there are plenty of things that are broken if read in the way they're written and require common sense to make functional.

(unrelated, but moonspeaker is a wildshaping class no matter how you slice it, considering it flat-out says "you gain wild shape":
...and wild shape is not required to enter.)

The problem I have with that logic is that there is then nothing stopping me from taking a single level of MT, and then immediately switching to another PrC and saying that PrC advances MT levels, worse I could chain that two for one casting progression into another thruge, and progress two thurges at once (well actually all of them, if I cared to dip that often), and still gain the actual class features for another non-thurge PRC. Worse yet, there's a solid argument for the logic that this abuse is intended behaviour since MT has no class features at all to make you want to stay in it (if we don't count dual casting progression), then its entire purpose is to early entry cheese into it as fast as possible and then get out again even faster just to give you yet more spells.

Inevitability

2014-10-18, 05:41 AM

Okay, new (and pretty major) dysfunction:

The spell Create Chosen One (MC:MoF) says:

Level: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5

Then, it says:

Only evil wizards can cast this spell...

So a sorcerer can learn the spell, but not cast it. Huh? :smallconfused:

Curmudgeon

2014-10-18, 06:19 AM

So a sorcerer can learn the spell, but not cast it. Huh? :smallconfused:
Alternatively, any Sorcerer can cast the spell, but for Wizards only the Evil ones can do so.

nedz

2014-10-18, 08:03 AM

The problem I have with that logic is that there is then nothing stopping me from taking a single level of MT, and then immediately switching to another PrC and saying that PrC advances MT levels, worse I could chain that two for one casting progression into another thruge, and progress two thurges at once (well actually all of them, if I cared to dip that often), and still gain the actual class features for another non-thurge PRC. Worse yet, there's a solid argument for the logic that this abuse is intended behaviour since MT has no class features at all to make you want to stay in it (if we don't count dual casting progression), then its entire purpose is to early entry cheese into it as fast as possible and then get out again even faster just to give you yet more spells.

This is what I meant when I said

Many of us think we understand how this stuff has to work, but it is very unclear by RAW.
The problem is: Does RAW actually state all this ?

If not: then it's an interpretation and grounds for being labelled as a dysfunctional rule since an interpretation is a house-rule.

Lightlawbliss

2014-10-18, 09:35 AM

This is what I meant when I said

The problem is: Does RAW actually state all this ?

If not: then it's an interpretation and grounds for being labelled as a dysfunctional rule since an interpretation is a house-rule.

I agree that it is dysfunctional by virtue of people not coming to an agreement on the correct reading and the various readings forcing us into a dilemma.

No brains

2014-10-18, 03:55 PM

Re: The Perpetual Theurge:
Oh my god... It's full of stats...

Sith_Happens

2014-10-18, 04:54 PM

Level: Assassin 2, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 2
...
Upon casting this spell, you become attuned to the specific creature that owns the spell’s focus item.
...
Arcane Focus: An object owned by the creature or a piece of the creature to be tracked, such as a tuft of hair or a fingernail.

QED, Marked Object is essentially nonfunctional for Rangers.

deuxhero

2014-10-18, 05:23 PM

The Burial Blessing spell is cleric-only and [good], yet it talks about evil clerics using the spell.

It says "depending on alignment" rather the evil clerics. There's a few ways to get it on a list other than Cleric so it would have an effect there.

Actually, hwo does Favored Soul work with alignment spells?

nedz

2014-10-18, 05:34 PM

Actually, how does Favoured Soul work with alignment spells?
No restriction.

Actually the most annoying thing about Favoured Souls, to me at least, is that:

They are Chosen by a specific Deity
The Deity has domains associated with their portfolios
These domains often have spells which are not on the standard Cleric list, but are available to Clerics of that Deity
There is no way that a Favoured Soul can know these spells

Is this a dysfunction though ?

Curmudgeon

2014-10-18, 05:44 PM

Is this a dysfunction though ?
It is when you add in the Initiate feats (Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 79-82) which provide Initiate-only spells to Clerics (and Paladins and Druids and Rangers and even Hathrans) of a particular deity, but not to Favored Souls of that deity.

deuxhero

2014-10-18, 06:15 PM

While checking to see if Burial Blessing came before or after Favored Soul, it seems its a 3.0 spell.

Di the restrictions on a alignment spells for Clerics exist in 3.0?

TypoNinja

2014-10-18, 06:32 PM

No restriction.

Actually the most annoying thing about Favoured Souls, to me at least, is that:

They are Chosen by a specific Deity
The Deity has domains associated with their portfolios
These domains often have spells which are not on the standard Cleric list, but are available to Clerics of that Deity
There is no way that a Favoured Soul can know these spells

Is this a dysfunction though ?

Favored Souls aren't dysfunctional so much as simply terribly designed. They function by the rules, they just function in a way that is offensive to anyone who stops to think about them.

nyjastul69

2014-10-18, 09:23 PM

While checking to see if Burial Blessing came before or after Favored Soul, it seems its a 3.0 spell.

Di the restrictions on a alignment spells for Clerics exist in 3.0?

Yes it did.

bekeleven

2014-10-18, 11:08 PM

It is when you add in the Initiate feats (Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 79-82) which provide Initiate-only spells to Clerics (and Paladins and Druids and Rangers and even Hathrans) of a particular deity, but not to Favored Souls of that deity.

A later book, which I think may be CChamp, explicitly said "Yo DMs, if a favored soul wants an initiate feat, give it to him."

Inevitability

2014-10-19, 12:39 AM

It says "depending on alignment" rather the evil clerics. There's a few ways to get it on a list other than Cleric so it would have an effect there.

Did those ways already exist when the spell was published, though? (may 2001)

Telok

2014-10-19, 08:27 AM

No restriction.

Actually the most annoying thing about Favoured Souls, to me at least, is that:
LIST....
Is this a dysfunction though ?

Not really, just WotC being stupid. The simplist fix for the Favored Soul I ever thought up was to remove their spells known and "class features", and give them four of their diety's domains complete with the domain powers. Goodbye half-a-cleric. Hello flavorful interesting class.

Curmudgeon

2014-10-19, 03:04 PM

Not really, just WotC being stupid. The simplist fix for the Favored Soul I ever thought up was to remove their spells known and "class features", and give them four of their diety's domains complete with the domain powers. Goodbye half-a-cleric. Hello flavorful interesting class.
"Fixes" for the Favored Soul other than specifically used as a way to highlight a dysfunction aren't really on topic here (plus we've already got too many Tier 1 classes :smallsigh:). Spells Known is a completely functional mechanic.

Telok

2014-10-19, 04:32 PM

Spells Known is a completely functional mechanic.

Well yes, the mechanic is functional but the class suffers for it. Anyways it is a bit off topic.

How about this: Has WotC ever produced an accurate and legal PrC example character? If not, is WotC dysfunctional?

PsyBomb

2014-10-19, 05:16 PM

Well yes, the mechanic is functional but the class suffers for it. Anyways it is a bit off topic.

How about this: Has WotC ever produced an accurate and legal PrC example character? If not, is WotC dysfunctional?

They have. Oddly enough, most of MoI's example characters were relatively well thought-out. Still an unacceptably high rate of mis-built characters... likely resulting from building during playtest and not accounting for changes later,

Jeff the Green

2014-10-19, 05:27 PM

They have. Oddly enough, most of MoI's example characters were relatively well thought-out. Still an unacceptably high rate of mis-built characters... likely resulting from building during playtest and not accounting for changes later,

I'm more inclined to believe that there's a pervasive misunderstanding of how leveling up works. Specifically, you can't use a feat, spells, or skill points to qualify for a PrC in the same level you get them. I don't think it explains every messed up example character, but it explains a lot.

Necroticplague

2014-10-19, 05:33 PM

I'm more inclined to believe that there's a pervasive misunderstanding of how leveling up works. Specifically, you can't use a feat, spells, or skill points to qualify for a PrC in the same level you get them. I don't think it explains every messed up example character, but it explains a lot.

Still doesn't explain how the heck the example Fleshwarper entered so fast. It would appear that was a case of "Graft Flesh has prereqs?"

Venger

2014-10-19, 05:38 PM

They have. Oddly enough, most of MoI's example characters were relatively well thought-out. Still an unacceptably high rate of mis-built characters... likely resulting from building during playtest and not accounting for changes later,

to my amazement, it appears you're right. Sayyara na Retheil, the sample incandescent champion, doesn't display any overt errors given a cursory readthrough. she fulfills all the prereqs for the class, she has the right number of feats, her attacks and damage seem calculated correctly, and even her AC adds up. I think wotc actually built at least 1 legal prc sample character.

wow.

Svata

2014-10-21, 05:57 AM

TypoNinja

2014-10-21, 06:47 AM

The Ice Paraelemental(p. 180-182, Manual of the Planes)'s Chill Metal ability "acts as the druid spell..., except within the given radius... As with the spell, it takes three rounds for affected metal to reach the freezing stage. Once it does it remains at that stage until the ice paraelemental takes a standard action to end the effect. The metal returns to its starting temperature two rounds later, just as with the spell."

What happens when it dies before ending the effect, as so many creatures do when they face adventurers? Sure, its fixed by adding "or it dies" after the italicized portion, but, if anything, that makes it worse.

The elementals power is chill metal, except in an emanation rather than the targeted spell. There is no dysfunction, you leave the emanation area and are no longer effected.

Also, being dead would silence the ability since it stops being that creature when killed. Literally.

creature

A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

The corpse of something doesn't have any of the traits of whatever that something used to be.

ShurikVch

2014-10-21, 08:46 AM

Dorjes augmentation limit:

However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains. See Creating DorjesOK...
Creating Dorjes
...
For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 11th (eight higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 6th-level power. :smallconfused: Am I missed something, or is the dorje of energy missile routinely exceed ML limit for dorjes?