3.5 saint template

[JohnStone]

I am starting a lvl 15 campaign,everyone gets a free LA +2 ( race or template)
We are 9 players representing the 9 alignments...
I am the LG "Paladin" (actually going Cleric/Ordained Champion/Sacred Ex)

I found the SAINT TEMPLATE (BoED) its +2 LA ...
but it cant be that simple, from what i can find it has requirements similar to a paladin code (is this correct, if so cool im the LG guy). And 3 Exalted feats?

What else can someone tell me about this template and what i would need to use it.

Thankyou

[Yogibear41]

3 exalted feats and DM approval. If you can take it, take it, because its a great thing to have.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just read up on what it takes to be an exalted character, and sainthood is partially covered on page 29. I would highly recommend taking Nymph's Kiss at 1st level.

[Greenish]

Playing an exalted character in a party that has four evil members should prove to be… interesting.

[Bad Wolf]

Playing an exalted character in a party that has four evil members should prove to be… interesting.

There's only three possible evil alignments: Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, and Lawful Evil.

But a campaign like this sounds fun. What's the Chaotic Evil character?

[Greenish]

There's only three possible evil alignments: Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil, and Lawful Evil.I'm including Chaotic "Neutral".

[Bad Wolf]

I'm including Chaotic "Neutral".

I see how you can call that evil, but Chaotic Neutral's a wide category.

[Oko and Qailee]

I see how you can call that evil, but Chaotic Neutral's a wide category.

I think it's a poke at how people play CN as "I do whatever I want even at the expense of others".

[JohnStone]

Thanks for the replies.

LE: Is a Crusader/Ur-priest / Vindicator
N: is pure druid (half min)
CE: Is a wiz/ specialist (illusion)
NG is frenzied berserker ( he also asked about saint might be a stretch)
Thats all i know for know.

I am hoping to get saint it would make lesser aasimar into greater aasimar.

Since he is letting me worship an ideal i get to pick my favored weapon (hard not to go spiked chain)( the vindicator is grabbing glaive)

If i cant get saint any other suggestions, stats dont matter as long as i get +s cause of a 1:1 point buy,

[Flickerdart]

Playing with three Evil characters shouldn't be a problem for a Saint as long as he can prevent them from actually doing anything nasty like murder or raising the undead, and if he tries to redeem them it should win him some bonus points from the forces that be.

[Curmudgeon]

I'd go the other way myself: Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior (each +1 LA).

[Flickerdart]

I'd go the other way myself: Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior (each +1 LA).
Lolth-touched on an LG character?

[Bad Wolf]

I'd go the other way myself: Lolth-Touched and Mineral Warrior (each +1 LA).

So -2 to all mental stats for a Cleric? And Lolth-Touched seems like it requires you to be evil.

[Wacky89]

maybe go with Anthropomorphic Hawk?
http://cdn-media.hollywood.com/images/l/hawkman1.jpg

natural flightspeed +4 dex and +6 wis

small size tho

[Curmudgeon]

So -2 to all mental stats for a Cleric? And Lolth-Touched seems like it requires you to be evil.
Play a Lesser Aasimar (+2 each to WIS and CHA) and it works out fairly well. Lolth-Touched very definitely requires CE alignment; that's what I meant by "go the other way". +8 STR, +10 CON before any enhancements (Divine Power, Righteous Might) lets the Cleric "tank" pretty effectively. Starting at level 15 gives ample opportunity to have a boosted WIS. And Mineral Warrior only removes existing flight capability, allowing the character to pick up Feathered Wings graft (which nudges toward Evil alignment).

Clerics already have Tier 1 spellcasting. The Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior approach adds significant physical prowess as well, making for a more well-rounded character (less min-max downside).

Of course, this all presupposes the OP can convince the Wizard character to switch to some other alignment to free up the CE spot.

[Flickerdart]

Play a Lesser Aasimar (+2 each to WIS and CHA) and it works out fairly well. Lolth-Touched very definitely requires CE alignment; that's what I meant by "go the other way". +8 STR, +10 CON before any enhancements (Divine Power, Righteous Might) lets the Cleric "tank" pretty effectively. Starting at level 15 gives ample opportunity to have a boosted WIS. And Mineral Warrior only removes existing flight capability, allowing the character to pick up Feathered Wings graft (which nudges toward Evil alignment).

Clerics already have Tier 1 spellcasting. The Lolth-Touched Mineral Warrior approach adds significant physical prowess as well, making for a more well-rounded character (less min-max downside).

Of course, this all presupposes the OP can convince the Wizard character to switch to some other alignment to free up the CE spot.

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."

[eggynack]

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."
Very true, though I've gotta say that I arbitrarily love alignment optimization. It's such a not-optimization thing, and there are all these fiddly little pieces based off of the decision, more in some cases than others. Clerics are the big example of this, with massive chunks of power rooted in the choice of alignment, but there are other times, like this one, where it has a more subtle and thus more interesting to me effect.

[atemu1234]

Very true, though I've gotta say that I arbitrarily love alignment optimization. It's such a not-optimization thing, and there are all these fiddly little pieces based off of the decision, more in some cases than others. Clerics are the big example of this, with massive chunks of power rooted in the choice of alignment, but there are other times, like this one, where it has a more subtle and thus more interesting to me effect.

Everyone knows that Paladin of Slaughter is better than Paladins of Honor because LOLTH-TOUCHED.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually Paladins of Slaughter suck mainly because of their Code of conduct, (which is stupid even by CoC standards!), but even their aura is terrible (-1 AC Woot!) Paladins of Tyranny on the other hands are simple awesome.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Actually Paladins of Slaughter suck mainly because of their Code of conduct, (which is stupid even by CoC standards!), but even their aura is terrible (-1 AC Woot!) Paladins of Tyranny on the other hands are simple awesome.

They're kind of scary when you're fighting them and they can blow all their smite goods at once on you though. But yes, their "Code of Conduct" is downright moronic.

[Curmudgeon]

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."
Actually it's the other way around. Starting with a primary spellcasting base, my suggestions were designed to emphasize the physical aspects instead rather than make for an even better spellcaster; in effect, de-optimize a Tier 1 character just a bit.

Also, if there's someone in the group who wants to play a (standard) Paladin, picking a different alignment would free up that LG slot for them.

[Red Rubber Band]

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."

May I sig this? :smallbiggrin:

[Bad Wolf]

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."

And Ao help you if you want to be a Fighter... WarbladeWarbladeWarbladeWarblade

[Flickerdart]

Also, if there's someone in the group who wants to play a (standard) Paladin, picking a different alignment would free up that LG slot for them.
One would hazard to guess that if someone wanted to be a paladin, they would already have picked LG without needing your guidance to do so.


And Ao help you if you want to be a Fighter... WarbladeWarbladeWarbladeWarblade
Fighters are objectively terrible and bland; the alignments are much more closely related to character concept. We already have a thread for this particular discussion though.


May I sig this? :smallbiggrin:
Go right ahead.

[Curmudgeon]

One would hazard to guess that if someone wanted to be a paladin, they would already have picked LG without needing your guidance to do so.
I see no reason for the snide retort. As far as the OP knows only 4 of the other 8 players have made their character selections thus far, and Paladin (should someone make that choice) is that rare base class which doesn't allow any alignment variation.

[Nihilarian]

I see no reason for the snide retort. As far as the OP knows only 4 of the other 8 players have made their character selections thus far, and Paladin (should someone make that choice) is that rare base class which doesn't allow any alignment variation.Except for the Paladins of Freedom, Slaughter and Tyranny, plus half a dozen Paladins from Dragon Magazine, of course. Besides them, there's certainly no way to play a Paladin that is not LG.

[torrasque666]

I see no reason for the snide retort. As far as the OP knows only 4 of the other 8 players have made their character selections thus far, and Paladin (should someone make that choice) is that rare base class which doesn't allow any alignment variation.

Paladin of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter say hi.

[Flickerdart]

I see no reason for the snide retort. As far as the OP knows only 4 of the other 8 players have made their character selections thus far, and Paladin (should someone make that choice) is that rare base class which doesn't allow any alignment variation.
Someone already made the choice of playing the paladin archetype. It was the OP.

[Curmudgeon]

Someone already made the choice of playing the paladin archetype. It was the OP.
There's no restriction on unique archetype in the game, only on unique alignment. Saint requires Good alignment, not Lawful Good.

If someone wanted to play a Rogue character, they could pick any alignment. If someone wanted to play a Barbarian, they have 6 alignment choices. If someone wanted to play a standard Paladin (not just a "Paladin" archetype), they have no choice whatsoever. I was just pointing out that, with 4 players yet to pick their characters, allowing someone else the option of playing an actual Paladin would be a courtesy.

For some reason, you took offense to this notion. :smallconfused:

[Nihilarian]

There's no restriction on unique archetype in the game, only on unique alignment. Saint requires Good alignment, not Lawful Good.

If someone wanted to play a Rogue character, they could pick any alignment. If someone wanted to play a Barbarian, they have 6 alignment choices. If someone wanted to play a standard Paladin (not just a "Paladin" archetype), they have no choice whatsoever. I was just pointing out that, with 4 players yet to pick their characters, allowing someone else the option of playing an actual Paladin would be a courtesy.

For some reason, you took offense to this notion. :smallconfused:The OP seems to want to play the Paladin Archetype, because he chose to play the LG character. You suggested he switch to CE instead of LG, which he can't do even if he wants to because there's already a CE character. Now you're suggesting he switch to CG (since there's already a NG). Except now it's apparently to free up a space for a theoretical person who specifically wants to play the Paladin of Honor base class and absolutely refuses to consider anything else (for example, the Paladin of Freedom)? This is less than helpful.

[Rebel7284]

To get back to the discussion of Saint,

Yes, it's one of the best templates in 3.5.

There aren't that many exalted feats that are amazing for a cleric, a Druid would probably fair better in that regard(exalted companion and exalted wildshape both add some great options.) Nymph's Kiss is always cool though and if you are OK with using simple weapons, there is Intuitive Attack, although at these levels it's easy to get your Strength to high levels.

One thing to consider, if you are using your turn attempts for something (such as Divine Metamagic or powering Divine Feats) you may want to trade away your original turn undead for something like Turn Essentia or Rebuke Dragons and then get it back when you enter Sacred Excorcist. You would need to change your base race if you do this (Azurins are a good choice).

[JohnStone]

The Saint template was approved by the DM.
I am trying to work out my build details now. And im having trouble.

The Ur-priest/Vindicator is making me jealous with a great lockdownbuild and 9th level spells.

I thought about doubling up on turn attempts like that, but it would dilute my Smite anything ability...and i dont think im going DMM persist as i get swift divine favor.

Anyhow one caveat of this particular game is a 1:1 pointbuy with no cap ( I could concievably start with 40+ Wis) i am toying with the idea of Prestige Paladin 2 (with serenity). But it costs 2 feats and a caster level.

Barring that since it eats up so many feats. I really don't have any ideas how to bust this character over the top other than my swift flamestrikes.

Any ideas would be welcome.

[Rebel7284]

The Saint template was approved by the DM.
I am trying to work out my build details now. And im having trouble.

The Ur-priest/Vindicator is making me jealous with a great lockdownbuild and 9th level spells.

I thought about doubling up on turn attempts like that, but it would dilute my Smite anything ability...and i dont think im going DMM persist as i get swift divine favor.

Anyhow one caveat of this particular game is a 1:1 pointbuy with no cap ( I could concievably start with 40+ Wis) i am toying with the idea of Prestige Paladin 2 (with serenity). But it costs 2 feats and a caster level.

Barring that since it eats up so many feats. I really don't have any ideas how to bust this character over the top other than my swift flamestrikes.

Any ideas would be welcome.

RKV loses 2 caster levels, so at level 15, shouldn't it be level 8 spells?

Regardless, yes, RKV is the best tank in the game and Ur Priest casting is great, so you have some catching up to do.

Once concept that would match that in power is taking 3 levels of Shadowcraft Mage and using DMM Heighten to cast 8th and 9th level spells. The flavor isn't a great match for an exalted character in my opinion, however.

Another concept to look into is whether or not Prestige Paladin counts as converting all your spell slots to Paladin slots. If yes, you can take Battle Blessing to cast EVERYTHING as a swift action and perhaps even Sword of the Arcane Order to cast wizard spells from your Paladin slots.

Also, as re-flavoring god affiliation seems to be possible (after all, an atheist is taking a class dedicated to We-Jas ) you may want to look into Initiate of Mystra.

Another alternative is to take RKV yourself. It's certainly a good class for "paladin"

[JohnStone]

Initiate of mystra looks interesting. I am actually worried about AMFs as we willbe fighting dieties, which could and should function in an Amf.

[JohnStone]

I was looking into RKV...
i could go crusader1/ cleric 3/ OC 4/ RKV 7
Stock on nightsticks and pearls of power...cast infinite Flamestrikes per round. (And some spiritual weapons maybe)
All in an AMF with Mystra.

[Rebel7284]

I was looking into RKV...
i could go crusader1/ cleric 3/ OC 4/ RKV 7
Stock on nightsticks and pearls of power...cast infinite Flamestrikes per round. (And some spiritual weapons maybe)
All in an AMF with Mystra.

Some concerns:
- That build loses 5 levels of casting progression, which is a pain. I would not go BOTH OC and RKV.
- Nightsticks wouldn't work in an AMF. While the trick of casting when no other people can cast is pretty amazing, it does turn off your items which can be a pain. :)
- For the sanity of everyone involved, I strongly suggest limiting the free swift action to 1/turn.

[Curmudgeon]

- For the sanity of everyone involved, I strongly suggest limiting the free swift action to 1/turn.
It's not a free swift action at all.
Divine Impetus (Su): At 7th level, you learn how to use the divine power of the Stern Lady to quicken your reactions and act without hesitation. You can expend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to gain one additional swift action this round.
Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. You can get an extra swift action (whereas the rules prohibit more than one swift action to everyone else), but it costs you a standard action.

[Rebel7284]

It's not a free swift action at all. You can get an extra swift action (whereas the rules prohibit more than one swift action to everyone else), but it costs you a standard action.

RAW, you are 100% correct.

RAI, this is almost certainly NOT the intent. You can already trade a standard action for a swift action by using the "ready an action" rule. The rules compendium clarifies that it is indeed possible to ready a swift action.

I feel that 1 extra action per round is the best way to interpret it for both RAI and balance.

[Curmudgeon]

You can already trade a standard action for a swift action by using the "ready an action" rule.
Yes, but you cannot make such a trade if you have already used your limit of 1 swift action per round.

[Sith_Happens]

You know this is GitP when someone says "no OP, your alignment is sub-op, here's a better one."

Although more often than not it's the Good alignments that get recommended for optimization purposes rather than the Evil ones (see: Words of Creation, Sacred Exorcist, Luminous Armor, Sorcadin).

[Dusk Eclipse]

I dunno, I've seen a lot of people recommend worshipping an Elder Evil for feats and then Chaos shuffling them into more "useful" feats, and that requires Evil alignment at the least, but if you are not careful can lead to CE (if you have more than 1 [Abyssal Heritor] feat your alignment changes to Chaotic). Paladin of Tyranny and Unseely fey are usually recommended for debuffer builds, Mindbender (requires non-good) is also a commonly recommended class for a lot of characters (obviously since it opens Mindsight).