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Genth
2014-09-20, 06:40 PM
Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

Daishain
2014-09-20, 06:47 PM
Feudal societies tended to make sure there was an heir, by whatever means necessary.

To put it another way, our emperor would likely be asked to marry someone suitable and "spend quality time" with her while she is most fertile. Rinse and repeat until she's pregnant, and then he can go back to his consort.

Not exactly the most romantic relationship in the world, but few of them are when it comes to royalty.

Wrenn
2014-09-20, 06:48 PM
Does he have a niece/nephew/young cousin he could adopt as his heir apparent?

LibraryOgre
2014-09-20, 06:54 PM
Somewhat depends on a few other things, but some suggestions

1) If he's low enough on the Kinsey scale, he might be able to "lie back and think of England" as it were... have sex with a woman for the sole purpose of reproduction.
2) There's also the "turkey baster" method. Using either mechanical or magical means, he provides seed and the chosen woman is artificially inseminated.
3) Magical gender change, allowing either himself or his Prince-Consort to carry the child, with the assumption that things will be switched back once you've got an heir (and a spare).
4) Magical orientation change; temporarily change his sexual orientation, at least enough to allow him to lie back and think of England.

Because it's his bloodline that's the problem, you lose out on another option... have his official wife impregnated by someone else, though that someone else might be a cousin or other family member with the right bloodline. Birthright (the AD&D setting) also had provisions for the transmission of blood strength... you could gift an heir some or all of your bloodline strength in a ceremony.

JusticeZero
2014-09-20, 07:05 PM
I had a thread not long back on a somewhat similar subject..I'll see if I can find it. That said, the two main probable workarounds I saw were:
One, adoption. Adopt a child as your own and continue the bloodline from there. You can probably scrape the bottom of the genetic barrel by checking the kids of various servant types through history. Lots of people have multiple kids after all, so you just need to find that one granddaughter of the scullery maid who worked with the fifth prince removed from the throne in the reign of Tanha the Fourth and elevate them. Or, just blatantly hack the conditions and do adjustments by brute magic force.
Two, arrange for a child. This is harder in this case than in my test case, but if magically necessary, it's still possible to arrange for someone to "lay back and think of the fjords" to accomplish the annoying duty. For example, the Prince could be gender flipped for sake of accomplishing their genealogical responsibility.
Three, just fake it and find something else to rely on. Gee, they have some sort of bloodline power. Sue over there is an Aasimar, that's a nice bloodline power and I doubt anyone will ask too many questions. We'll throw it together with duct tape and not worry about it.

Wrenn
2014-09-20, 07:05 PM
Because it's his bloodline that's the problem, you lose out on another option... have his official wife impregnated by someone else, though that someone else might be a cousin or other family member with the right bloodline. Birthright (the AD&D setting) also had provisions for the transmission of blood strength... you could gift an heir some or all of your bloodline strength in a ceremony.

And there's a macguffin quest. The (magic item that allows transference) of the ancient ceremony has been lost to time, only a group of heroes can uncover it.

Tzevaot
2014-09-20, 07:08 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Mr Beer
2014-09-20, 09:01 PM
I think it would be a trivial problem. Historically very powerful men can have whatever sex life they like as long as they are not public about it (and sometimes even if they are, it's still OK).

They will need an official marriage though and should impregnate that woman.

LawfulNifty
2014-09-20, 09:05 PM
Historically, when a monarch fails to produce an heir they go back up the bloodline until they find the nearest ancestor with a living descendant. So if the current emperor never has a kid, does he have a younger sibling who's still around? How 'bout an aunt or uncle? Third cousin? Sooner or later they'll find somebody, and any royal family worth its salt keeps thorough records. Ten seconds of Googling gave me the family tree (http://www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm) of Queen Elizabeth going back to 849. Even if none of Elizabeth II's direct descendants had any kids, somebody would still get to be king or queen once they all died.

The important thing is, this opens up adventuring possibilities; maybe the heir to the bloodline is some obscure, distant relative living out in the middle of nowhere, and the Big Bad puts two and two together in time to capture the heir and hold them for ransom. Maybe a bunch of people all pop up claiming to be the long lost third cousin of the emperor and in order to discern who truly carries the mystical bloodline they will need the Chalice of Truth, which has mysteriously vanished.

Of course, if this is a fantasy setting, the Polymorph + "lie back and think of England" approach is way more straightforward (as it were).

Anxe
2014-09-20, 09:17 PM
Historically, when a monarch fails to produce an heir they go back up the bloodline until they find the nearest ancestor with a living descendant. So if the current emperor never has a kid, does he have a younger sibling who's still around? How 'bout an aunt or uncle? Third cousin? Sooner or later they'll find somebody, and any royal family worth its salt keeps thorough records. Ten seconds of Googling gave me the family tree (http://www.britroyals.com/royaltree.htm) of Queen Elizabeth going back to 849. Even if none of Elizabeth II's direct descendants had any kids, somebody would still get to be king or queen once they all died.

The important thing is, this opens up adventuring possibilities; maybe the heir to the bloodline is some obscure, distant relative living out in the middle of nowhere, and the Big Bad puts two and two together in time to capture the heir and hold them for ransom. Maybe a bunch of people all pop up claiming to be the long lost third cousin of the emperor and in order to discern who truly carries the mystical bloodline they will need the Chalice of Truth, which has mysteriously vanished.

Of course, if this is a fantasy setting, the Polymorph + "lie back and think of England" approach is way more straightforward (as it were).

I giggled.

Sith_Happens
2014-09-20, 09:50 PM
3) Magical gender change, allowing either himself or his Prince-Consort to carry the child, with the assumption that things will be switched back once you've got an heir (and a spare).
4) Magical orientation change; temporarily change his sexual orientation, at least enough to allow him to lie back and think of England.

Ideally you'd want both of these, one for the emperor and the other for the prince-consort.

Coidzor
2014-09-20, 10:10 PM
Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

Well, if he's abrogating his duty to knock up a woman to keep the bloodline going and doesn't have a sibling or relative who can get preggers and continue the magical, important bloodline that way... He just might be the ass who ends up causing the country to turn homophobic as a reaction to his selfish and irresponsible behavior plunging them into chaos/war/letting the sealed evil out of the can.

I mean, really, what did you expect having someone who is set up to refuse to propagate the bloodline that has to exist for X reason that's super important for some material reason rather than just being nice for things like governmental stability? :smallconfused:


I had a thread not long back on a somewhat similar subject..I'll see if I can find it.

The Female Dragonslayer shows up to claim the prize which was posted as the princess thread? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365833-%28Social-fem%29-quot-The-Princess-s-hand-for-wait-that-won-t-work-quot)

Totema
2014-09-20, 11:47 PM
Do it the way the Romans did: Adopting someone would literally put them into a new lineage.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-21, 12:37 AM
Just looking for a little help story-wise

So the Emperor of one of the nations in my game is gay, and has a Prince-Consort. They're very happy together. However, the story kinda places a lot of importance on the bloodline - the emperors are supposed to go back to a heroic fighter from the past. So how might a non-homophobic society deal with having a *queer emperor? It's not just a culture question - the bloodline has important magical properties..

Any thoughts

It should be fine as long as the emperor produces an heir. Just get him to knock up Her Highness as many times as required for a stable bloodline. It shouldn't take long, and it's not like he needs to enjoy it anyway. If he starts complaining, try guilt-tripping him about the magic bloodline and the good of the empire.

hymer
2014-09-21, 12:51 AM
try guilt-tripping him about the magic bloodline and the good of the empire.

Some people may be into that, but for some people this is actually counterproductive. :smallwink:

@ OP: I agree with the idea that he should get an official heir the traditional way. It's gotta be better than going to war, which is expected of people in the interests of their country. If the society, or just rules on royals, is/are sufficiently strictly monogamous to prevent this solution (he already has a consort), and the bloodline rules permit it, adopt the next in line. If none of these work, magic. If that isn't a solution either for some reason (bloodline rules, insufficient magic, taboo, etc.), it's time for the top people in the country to sit down and hammer out a new set of rules to encompass the new situation. These would probably require an heir to be produced, and provide a special dispensation to the monogamy problem, in a way that ensures rights for the mother(s) and spells out rules to keep palace intrigue down a little.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-21, 02:45 AM
An unconventional solution: Have the emperor say "screw this" and skip town.
Seriously, what would those among you do when told to have sex with your respective gender of non-preference?

So the emperor decides to flee (taking his Prince-Consort with him, of course). In his hour of need, he approaches the party, maybe in disguise and implores them for help; they are experienced adventurers, while he is, of course, well aware he would not last long in the wild.
No matter how they answer, five minutes later the Scheming Grand Vizier shows up. You see, he is somewhat doubtful about if the Emperor takes his duties into consideration enough. Would the party kindly make sure he doesn't, by chance, skip town or the like?

Instant plot hook - just add water.

Coidzor
2014-09-21, 02:55 AM
An unconventional solution: Have the emperor say "screw this" and skip town.
Seriously, what would those among you do when told to have sex with your respective gender of non-preference?

Never doubt the power of Dulce Et Decorum Est, especially when there's something actually on the line, like the seal on the ancient Lich-God's prison.


So the emperor decides to flee (taking his Prince-Consort with him, of course). In his hour of need, he approaches the party, maybe in disguise and implores them for help; they are experienced adventurers, while he is, of course, well aware he would not last long in the wild.
No matter how they answer, five minutes later the Scheming Grand Vizier shows up. You see, he is somewhat doubtful about if the Emperor takes his duties into consideration enough. Would the party kindly make sure he doesn't, by chance, skip town or the like?

Instant plot hook - just add water.

But yes, plots the hookening over here.

FabulousFizban
2014-09-21, 02:58 AM
Feudal societies tended to make sure there was an heir, by whatever means necessary.

To put it another way, our emperor would likely be asked to marry someone suitable and "spend quality time" with her while she is most fertile. Rinse and repeat until she's pregnant, and then he can go back to his consort.

Not exactly the most romantic relationship in the world, but few of them are when it comes to royalty.

There is precedent for this in history. It wouldn't be a matter of conforming to hetero-normativity, it would be a matter of maintaining geo-political stability.

Flashy
2014-09-21, 04:18 AM
There is precedent for this in history. It wouldn't be a matter of conforming to hetero-normativity, it would be a matter of maintaining geo-political stability.

Exactly! So long as he does his duty by the kingdom who cares what he does in his spare time.

Khatoblepas
2014-09-21, 04:33 AM
Adoption + Magical Bloodline Granting Ceremony sounds like the most fair thing for all parties. It's a magical bloodline, right? Surely it can do something as simple as add someone to it after the fact.

Alternate routes could be:

- Emperor goes to a witch, she asks him and his prince consort to let a single drop of their blood fall upon a special flower, and the flower will bloom and reveal a child born of both of them. Hey, it worked in Thumbalina, why can't it work for a gay couple, too?

- Petitioning whatever higher powers there are to grant them an heir.

Remember that you have a fantasy world, and getting a child doesn't have to involve two people having sex. Honestly, the idea of "Polymorph the prince/get him a wife and force him to do it/mind control him into doing it or liking to do it until you get an heir" makes me supremely uncomfortable.

LawfulNifty
2014-09-21, 05:35 AM
I mean, I'm not clear on what the consequences of the bloodline dying out will be, but if all the emperor needs to do to keep the Oblivion Gates from opening (or whatever) is get with someone he doesn't find attractive I'm all for having him grit his teeth and get on with it. Otherwise people will die.

It imposes an interesting limitation if, for the magic to work, the heir has to be legitimate, and he's already married the consort (maybe he had an older sibling who died, so the thought of marrying a woman for the sake of the bloodline wouldn't have come up until it was too late). If the emperor skips town, maybe it's because he doesn't know that his bloodline is magical, or he's been told but thinks it's just a legend. Maybe he was supposed to be, like, eighth in line for the throne, but somebody is trying to release the evil by systematically murdering his family, so now in addition to suddenly being under a lot of pressure to produce an heir with his consort, his family is dead and he's probably next.

That's the real reason I don't like the "just find a woman and get on with things" approach, because that almost certainly won't involve the PCs going on an adventure.

Unless you meant for this to be some minor decorative world-building, in which case, do whatever--but in any case, OP, please let us know what you end up doing with this, I'm really curious now.

MrConsideration
2014-09-21, 06:01 AM
Monarchs were often contracted to each other earlier than any sexual feelings could develop, so most gay kings were married to women - Edward II of England was quite transparently gay, and famously 'cold' to his wife Isabella, often quarreling with her over his gay partner, Piers Gaveston. If grimdark is an ok part of your campaign, you could have this be the focus of rebellion/scheming on behalf of the nobles or the Queen. If your campaign is anachronistically progressive (and fair play to you if it is - why should we put up with bigotry in our fantasy lives?) then there are presumably plot-hooky magical ways to solve the problem - simply cast's Tenser's Floating Artificial Insemination and be done with it, or have your heroes hunt down the long-lost male heir descended from the Emperor's uncle who as himself an adventurer of renown.

There's plenty of legal precedent for reasonably distant relatives ascending to the throne - Elizabeth and James I and VI, or the rise of the Valois King Phillip VI in France. Both give ample opportunities for plot hooks, too.

Genth
2014-09-21, 07:12 AM
Woah, did NOT expect that many answers. You guys are awesome! So in no particular order;

1) Yes, this setting is anachronistically progressive, since I'm *Queer and I like to throw it in my games as just a normal thing... except when it like here, clashes with fantasy cliche's about blood etc.

2) It's not as bad as another nation, where -everything- is about blood, specifically, dragon blood, the nobility are descended from dragon hybrids, and so there's a strict caste system. Enough Dragon Blood to have Horns/Tail/Wings? Noble. Enough for eyes and increased strength? Warrior Caste. No Dragon blood at all? You're a peasant. What it means is that spousal ties mean very little for the nobility; they're socially encouraged to sleep around as much as possible! So I also wanted a bit of a difference to that.

3) I find the 'lie back and think of england' stuff quite uncomfortable.

4) So still thinking about it, in short. I like the idea of blood rituals to create the heir.

*5) Oh, and it's mostly worldbuilding window-dressing, with it being plot-important at one later stage

Killer Angel
2014-09-21, 07:15 AM
Do it the way the Romans did: Adopting someone would literally put them into a new lineage.

This doesn't address the problem related to the "bloodline has important magical properties".
Unless with the title, you dont gain also blood-related powers, but i doubt it.

Firest Kathon
2014-09-21, 08:01 AM
If the properties of the bloodline are magical, there could be a magical ritual to transfer the properties to an adopted heir.

TheCountAlucard
2014-09-21, 08:41 AM
Exalted solves this problem handily with the Neomah, a demon that can be called across the Endless Desert by a skilled Exalted sorcerer. A summoned Neomah can take bits of flesh (or certain fluids) and create a baby from them, giving it life by spinning a tower from her mouth and throwing it into the fires therein. For all intents and purposes (yes, explicitly including magical bloodline stuff), the baby is descended from the (willing or unwilling) "donors," regardless of their respective jibbly bits.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-21, 10:35 AM
3) I find the 'lie back and think of england' stuff quite uncomfortable.


Yeah, it's not the best option by a long shot. But assuming the bloodline is important, and there's no magical way to get around the need for him to procreate naturally, it may be the only way.

However, since you're the GM, then there's another way.

Daishain
2014-09-21, 12:02 PM
Exalted solves this problem handily with the Neomah, a demon that can be called across the Endless Desert by a skilled Exalted sorcerer. A summoned Neomah can take bits of flesh (or certain fluids) and create a baby from them, giving it life by spinning a tower from her mouth and throwing it into the fires therein. For all intents and purposes (yes, explicitly including magical bloodline stuff), the baby is descended from the (willing or unwilling) "donors," regardless of their respective jibbly bits.

I'm not sure the nobles would trust a demon not to screw with the child or his connection to the bloodline in one way or another. I'm not sure the player's should either. Especially since this is important plot wise for one reason or another.

TheCountAlucard
2014-09-21, 12:54 PM
I'm not sure the nobles would trust a demon not to screw with the child or his connection to the bloodline in one way or another.You seem to be making assumptions of demons in Exalted that don't quite hold true. Since we haven't even been told what system the OP is using, I'm not sure this is the best line for you to take.

Since I'm assuming it's not Exalted, it's also likely not particularly important that a system-transplanted Neomah must remain a demon.


I'm not sure the player's should either.:confused:

Wardog
2014-09-21, 01:28 PM
Edward II of England was quite transparently gay, and famously 'cold' to his wife Isabella, often quarreling with her over his gay partner, Piers Gaveston.

Edward II had mistresses, and an illegitimate son, so he would have been bi rather than gay.

JusticeZero
2014-09-21, 04:50 PM
An unconventional solution: Have the emperor say "screw this" and skip town.
Seriously, what would those among you do when told to have sex with your respective gender of non-preference?
If you are a prince or princess, that is actually your entire job, or at least the primary duty. Seriously, you have ONE JOB. It's neither dangerous nor excessively time consuming. It is mildly annoying and tedious at worst, since you are a Prince rather than a Princess. And the person I'm working with is presumably a reasonably nice person to work with.

lightningcat
2014-09-21, 05:02 PM
If genderswapping is an option, then how important is it for the Emperor to be the father instead of the mother?

I also recall succubus/incubus being able to act as temporary storage for "artificial insemination". Taking it from the father and giving it to the mother, the Emperor and his consort might be able to get similar assistance (or even more standard versions of artificial insemination) if they are utterly against other options.

Vitruviansquid
2014-09-21, 05:45 PM
Alternatively, the emperor's bloodline might just end, plunging the empire into succession crisis.

Tengu_temp
2014-09-21, 05:54 PM
If the emperor has any siblings, then one of their children could simply become the heir. I find this a more plausible solution than the whole "use a ritual to transfer a magical bloodline" thing. And using magic to temporarily alter someone's gender or orientation sounds only slightly less uncomfortable than "lie back and think of <place>" to me.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-21, 05:55 PM
If you are a prince or princess, that is actually your entire job, or at least the primary duty. Seriously, you have ONE JOB. It's neither dangerous nor excessively time consuming. It is mildly annoying and tedious at worst, since you are a Prince rather than a Princess. And the person I'm working with is presumably a reasonably nice person to work with.

I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?

A Tad Insane
2014-09-21, 06:22 PM
I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?

That's a good question. The OP never said what happens if the line is broken.

Daishain
2014-09-21, 06:50 PM
I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?Even leaving aside whatever undefined nasty stuff will happen without this bloodline...

The lack of an heir in a feudal society typically leads to a lot of chaos and death. Exactly how much chaos occurs depends on a lot of different factors, but it is not unreasonable to say that the Prince failing to do this particular job risks the lives of each and every citizen under his rule.

VoxRationis
2014-09-21, 06:51 PM
A Tad Insane has a point here. Even if the imperial bloodline isn't keeping the apocalypse in check a la Oblivion, the stability of the imperial house is crucial to keeping the land out of a potentially nasty succession crisis, which could kill thousands of people in a bloody civil war. Just because his title has a lot of perks doesn't mean it's not a job, and jobs have duties attached to them, which you have to do regardless of whether they are unpleasant or not. I guess the proper solution depends a lot on the kind of culture surrounding the monarchy. If you want a very noble, self-sacrificing tradition of royalty, people are going to expect the prince to suck it up and produce an heir already. If the nobility is more of a decadent "do whatever you want, you have wealth and power" sort, everyone's going to expect this guy to ignore the problem, so people are going to be readying themselves for a dynastic shift.

Sartharina
2014-09-21, 07:56 PM
I find "lay back and think of England" as unacceptable from any morality that puts individual desires above the state's will. A blood ritual's better for such things.

Have potential heir get in an automobile carriage accident, and have the Prince save his life with a blood transfusion! Oh wait... it depends on if gay people are allowed to be blood donors under the system in place... (Eh - nothing a "Cure disease" on standbye can't fix)

sktarq
2014-09-21, 08:15 PM
If the properties of the bloodline are magical, there could be a magical ritual to transfer the properties to an adopted heir.

That is a very big could in that sentence. Depending on how magic works and depending on what magical qualities are present (and what those qualities are tied to it could either very easy to get around or very hard. If it is just an Assimar/Planar/Bloodline effect for Unearthed Arcana is could be rather easy to find someone else with that history and adopt them. . . . if the nobles and populace will accept that which isn't a guaranteed thing even in a more accepting place. If it is about being expressly decedent from a given person (which I think was implied) it is that identity that would be the important. It could well be that in order to use a magical ritual like that it would require a bit of the original substance to match to-so you'd have to pull the honored warriors soul from his rest, rip a chunk off and stuff it in the target....which may not go over well... but could be a nifty set of plot hooks.

Personal recommendation: The king realizes he will not be having an heir. He thus plans to adopt one of his nephews, cousin etc. Whoever is chosen will skip strait up to direct heir in spite of what blood order would normally dictate of hopping back two or three generations down to a junior child and back to the present generation. Thus there are several groups backing various candidates, others attempting to manipulate the King into a choice, attempts to prove/disprove that various members of the family carry a strong enough link to the founder to have the magic of the blood, claims of bastard children who should be considered, Forces against the whole idea and say that his second cousin Ragthas (or whoever) is the eldest heir of the Kings great uncle and should thus be king no matter his close association with various groups in the army and that religion the peasants call tyrannical. Lots of plot hooks, can bring in whatever characters needed at the time. Flexibility, possible work for the PC's at any level...can last for a while. etc.


Edit:
I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?
That would be grounds for another member of the Royal Family to take the role fully. . . or the Leader abdicates. . . See a rather recent King of England who didn't want to take his mate from the list of acceptable ones presented to him.

Daishain
2014-09-21, 08:16 PM
I find "lay back and think of England" as unacceptable from any morality that puts individual desires above the state's will. A blood ritual's better for such things.
That's the thing though, this isn't such a system, and the people of this world don't hold to such a morality. The worlds of D&D are remarkably progressive for the archetypes they model, but the nobles of the feudal systems found here are still expected to put the good of their family and their nation above that of their own.

Whether they actually do so or not typically also is the difference between a good ruler and a poor one.

Sartharina
2014-09-21, 08:18 PM
That's the thing though, this isn't such a system, and the people of this world don't hold to such a morality. The worlds of D&D are remarkably progressive for the archetypes they model, but the nobles of the feudal systems found here are still expected to put the good of their family and their nation above that of their own.

I think it actually might be a situation, unless the society also has conscription and slavery.

Daishain
2014-09-21, 08:23 PM
I think it actually might be a situation, unless the society also has conscription and slavery.
Irrelevant. The way a feudal system works, the people in a position of power are expected from birth to fulfill certain obligations. If they do not do so, the system breaks down and chaos ensues. If you are born a noble, and don't have a dozen suitable heirs in line for the title ahead of you, you basically ARE a slave. And you will remain a slave until the day you are no longer depended on to keep the realm secure (which quite often ends up being the day you die). A slave with a lot of nice perks, but a slave nonetheless.

sktarq
2014-09-21, 08:23 PM
I think it actually might be a situation, unless the society also has conscription and slavery.
There is a reason lots of writers have talked about the role of nobility as being things like a golden cage, a slave to the peasants, etc. It is a classic issue that sits at the heart of any class system. Those born to leadership are as trapped by their duties as those born on the bottom....but with more stuff.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-21, 08:38 PM
I think it actually might be a situation, unless the society also has conscription and slavery.

That doesn't necessarily follow, because nobility and royalty aren't subject to conscription or slavery in the sense you mean it. The existence of a noble caste/royal family in the first place is de facto proof that there are different rules for commoners and nobility, as there always have been - and as people have said, the #1 duty of a feudal ruler is to ensure the succession is maintained.

Historically, that has been by direct blood descent, because we don't have any other options. In a fantasy world, there are a multitude of options that might exist, but 'not produce an heir' isn't one of them. At least, not if the ruler has or had any intention of keeping his/her job (and life) very long. Succession crises can destroy empires. If this Prince doesn't want to produce an heir, he better have a viable alternative prepared (such as a younger sibling).

Hiro Protagonest
2014-09-21, 08:38 PM
If this world is so super-progressive and all... why do they still have a feudal bloodline-based system? It would be a republic.

So obviously, even if the world is respectful of people's choice of life partners, it's not above it all. It's a world where the bloodline is valued more than the individual.

Erik Vale
2014-09-21, 09:21 PM
For all those talking as if it's a random bloodline, go back and take a look and realise it's a magical bloodline.
Head Desking may be appropriate, unless you're at work.

As for the transfusion, that has a non-insignificant chance of killing the guy your giving it to, so you're better off just going with the healing, assuming transfusions have even been thought of. Also, the princes blood means nothing, you need the kings blood.

I will agree, it may not be popular, but this is the sort of situation where if magic can't solve it, everyone in his social circle is saying 'Buck up', or planning how they're going to end up on top/in a higher station after the succession crisis.

NichG
2014-09-21, 09:23 PM
Respecting the will of the population in general and respecting the will of a certain person who, due to factors beyond control, has an anomalously large degree of control over the life or death of everyone else are different things. A culture can have the morality that individual desires are generally above the will of the state, but if there's a single individual whose desires threaten the state then the situation is different (because then, via the state as proxy, that one individual's desires are balanced against the desires of everyone else who will suffer as a result of them).

This seems to be the latter case. Due to the bloodline thing, this guy is basically a point of leverage. His personal desires have a cost to them which is bigger than just his own life. So no matter what the society thinks about the contents of those desires when it comes to other individuals, his situation as a point of leverage means that the ends of those desires are vastly different. If a peasant in this society chooses not to have kids then that just influences them and those of their family. If this emperor chooses not to have kids, then the Oblivion gates open and tens of thousands of people die. That has nothing to do with sexual orientation anymore, it has to do with the Oblivion gates opening.

Even in a very progressive state there's a point where they're going to be okay with sacrificing a few lives to keep the whole of the populace alive. There's all sorts of ways in which these sacrifices can be decorated to appear less like sacrifices - the whole 'nobility' thing is one of them. So just because the state is progressive and beneficent doesn't mean it's going to be progressive and beneficent to its nobles.

I'd say the most likely response to that kind of situation would just be very intense indirect pressure from all sides to take care of the heir problem. For most people, the gap is going to be believing that something like making an heir is really connected to large numbers of people dying. Its easy for the emperor to convince himself that a succession crisis wouldn't be so bad or whatever if he's never going to see one while he lives. So his staff schedules a trip to a foreign country where there's a succession war in progress. They travel through burnt out villages, see the results of plague first hand, etc. Really make the point 'this is the consequence of your choice'. Make it so the emperor literally cannot get anything done in the empire until he solves this problem, so if he has any particular will to rule it will be thwarted until he can make this particular issue right. Heck, even contrive trips and duties which separate him from the prince consort as much as possible until then. If the government can't convince the emperor on the basis of his morality, by thwarting his desires, or even just by annoying him into it then things get more dire.

At that point, I would expect most governments to turn to drugging their head of state if need be, progressive towards the populace or not. They'd kill him if it actually helped. The policy towards the populace is the aggregate of discussions within the halls of government, written laws, etc. The behavior of individuals high up in government presented with a do-or-die situation may well break from that policy.

The emperor's escape route from all of this is basically to get a group of adventurers to kill all the daedra so the bloodline is no longer needed.

sktarq
2014-09-21, 09:32 PM
For all those talking as if it's a random bloodline, go back and take a look and realise it's a magical bloodline.

"Magical bloodline" is a poorly defined term.

It could mean that that there are magical effects in which the decedent of the hero-founder's blood works as a key. Any decendent works

It could mean that all the decedents of the hero-founder's blood carry the magical effects imbued by said hero-founder.

It could be that the closer the decent from the founder (basically the more of your DNA you share with him) the stronger the magic in your blood is. Thus the nobility will be a inbreeding and back breeding to try and get "better" blood as much as they angle for money and military advantage. Think this seem ridiculous? In Fiction you can see it in Game of Thrones (Valyrian Blood) or in real history the blood of the Ptolemies in Egypt and several others.

It could mean that certain rituals at coronation refocus the magic of the blood and will only work properly if the next subject is the direct decedent of the previous one (which would be stupid way to set up a kingdom - that's why junior sons are around). And dozens of other options. So just calling it a magical bloodline isn't totally helpful for understand what can or can not work with it-which may well be up for consideration by the DM in order to produce the result they want.


Basically one of two things has to happen without triggering a third
Option I: Loosen the requirements. What do I mean? That the next King/Emperor whatnot need not be the child of the current one. His younger sibling, cousin etc could work just as well. Or there is a ritual that would bring an outsider into the bloodline and for them to gain the appropriate magical blood qualities. Or an equivilant bloodline with similar enough qualities is located... etc

Option II: An heir is made. Either by the King finding a tolerable woman where he can "think of <nation>", being magically coerced, being blackmailed, having magical or mechanical artificial insemination used, Prince Consort is given a belt of reverse gender,

Limiting factor: Acceptance. There is more to being a king than just being born and having it stamped onto you. It is a social role that the rest of society has a say in. If the Nobility and/or the populous doesn't accept the technique used to satisfy option I or II above then it fails on a social level even if it succeeds on a magical/genetic one. For example: if the populace isn't very trusting about magic they may well not be okay with magic being used to gender swap, inseminate etc. Or maybe they are against witches and your thumbalina trick backfires. Of followers of one god in the kingdom may not accept an "heir" bestowed by another god. This could lead to attempts to satisfy one of the above options by another means or a drastically changed structure and of the bloodlines place within it.

LibraryOgre
2014-09-21, 10:29 PM
That doesn't necessarily follow, because nobility and royalty aren't subject to conscription or slavery in the sense you mean it. The existence of a noble caste/royal family in the first place is de facto proof that there are different rules for commoners and nobility, as there always have been - and as people have said, the #1 duty of a feudal ruler is to ensure the succession is maintained.

Historically, that has been by direct blood descent, because we don't have any other options. In a fantasy world, there are a multitude of options that might exist, but 'not produce an heir' isn't one of them. At least, not if the ruler has or had any intention of keeping his/her job (and life) very long. Succession crises can destroy empires. If this Prince doesn't want to produce an heir, he better have a viable alternative prepared (such as a younger sibling).

I'm reminded of Raymond Feist's books and the Kingdom of the Isle's "Great Freedom"... IIRC, it was basically "If you're a commoner, you can't be forced to do anything by the kingdom, save in a case of emergency. Nobles, given their positions by the Kingdom, can be forced to do all sorts of things, but they can choose to leave the nobility if they don't want to do them anymore."

In the case of the options that involve changing gender or orientation, I'm still assuming there is a willing person. The emperor says "I have a duty to provide an heir, but I'm not terribly fond of women, and not really wanting to cheat on my Prince Consort. However, we've got this method that will let me do my duty, and the Prince Consort and I will work out the relationship problems between us."

The Glyphstone
2014-09-21, 10:32 PM
I'm reminded of Raymond Feist's books and the Kingdom of the Isle's "Great Freedom"... IIRC, it was basically "If you're a commoner, you can't be forced to do anything by the kingdom, save in a case of emergency. Nobles, given their positions by the Kingdom, can be forced to do all sorts of things, but they can choose to leave the nobility if they don't want to do them anymore."

In the case of the options that involve changing gender or orientation, I'm still assuming there is a willing person. The emperor says "I have a duty to provide an heir, but I'm not terribly fond of women, and not really wanting to cheat on my Prince Consort. However, we've got this method that will let me do my duty, and the Prince Consort and I will work out the relationship problems between us."

Or, to boil it down to a well-worn popular catchphrase, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility".

Erik Vale
2014-09-21, 10:48 PM
-Snip-
My comment is more towards the people suggesting random adoption or saying 'Who Cares?'. I think it'd be perfectly fine with a long lost [or not so lost] relative, most of the nobility would be, if said person was closest or made heir elect, properly groomed/trained, and could have his bloodline proven.

Ravens_cry
2014-09-21, 11:27 PM
If the Emperor refuses to do his duty, he could always provide his seed externally, and the royal physician can make with the royal turkey baster with whoever is chosen as the one worthy to receive it.
This could even be the Prince Consort if gender bending magic exists.
Nine months later, bam, kid gets handed back to a wet nurse and the royal line is preserved.

Braininthejar2
2014-09-22, 02:39 AM
Historically such problems were solved with threesomes - the ruler, his wife and his consort (there to ensure he will be able to do his doty)

Killer Angel
2014-09-22, 06:12 AM
I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?

Usually, it's time for treason, rebellion and maybe civil war. What now? :smallamused:

Nagash
2014-09-22, 11:41 AM
I am failing to understand your point. You say this is a Prince's job. So? This particular Prince does not want to do this job. What now?

Your fired? welcome to civil war and thousands dead because he couldnt suck it up?

Segev
2014-09-22, 12:17 PM
Is the Prince-Consort bi? If so, Bestow Curse or Polymorph the king into being female for a couple of years, until (s)he produces the required heirs + spares.

If not, hire a couple of, um, "adventurous" wizards or psions who can be trusted with this duty to Magic Jar or Mind Switch with the king and curse or polymorph the Prince-Consort into a Princess-Consort. Let these two, presumably straight (or at least willingly oriented) magic or psionic people perform the mating ritual in the bodies of the King and his Prince(ss). They can borrow bodies as often as necessary until the required heir + spare is generated.

If there's no need for legitimacy, finding a shapeshifting creature willing to take on the heir-bearing responsibility who can morph into a suitably boyish but still technically female form might work. (I'm honestly not sure how the attraction to men works, so couldn't say whether that would suffice.) How would the bloodline fare with a bit of dragon added to it?

Steel Mirror
2014-09-22, 12:28 PM
To me, it sounds like the artificial insemination (magical or "turkey baster") is the way to go for this succession crisis. In a real-world feudal society that wouldn't have been an option for a host of reasons, but I think it is a plausible solution for magical elf land, and one that hopefully sidesteps the perils of the king's personal inclinations as to whom he prefers to step out with.

It does lead to a host of other possibly dramatic issues, though. Who will the king choose to bear his child? Love is not a concern, but genetics or title or personality probably is. What kind of rights will the mother have, once the child is born? Will she be the mother fully, with all the rights and responsibilities associated? If so, it is important to choose someone who the king trusts, who will raise a royal child in the appropriate environment and believing the appropriate things. An unwise decision now could lead to an heir raised with treasonous or foolish ideas.

Or maybe the mother will be little more than a wet nurse, or even nothing more than a surrogate who will never see her child after it is born. Will the mother then seek some way to connect with her child, even if it means going against the empire? Will the child ever grow curious about its mother, and track her down against the King's wishes?

As in real royal match-making, maybe choosing the mother is a political issue. Noble houses may scheme to put a child of their descent onto the throne. Or a mother may be chosen from another kingdom to strengthen the bonds of international friendship. Or perhaps the King is tired of political games, and decides to choose a common woman of no title but strong virtues of some kind. In that case, the child might enter the world already having earned the enmity of most of the kingdom's movers and shakers.

The point is, should you choose the surrogate option, that doesn't have to be the end of the drama. Think of it as another beginning!

Metahuman1
2014-09-22, 01:02 PM
Alternate routes could be:

- Emperor goes to a witch, she asks him and his prince consort to let a single drop of their blood fall upon a special flower, and the flower will bloom and reveal a child born of both of them. Hey, it worked in Thumbalina, why can't it work for a gay couple, too?

Remember that you have a fantasy world, and getting a child doesn't have to involve two people having sex.

Agree with your last point, but this is the one that amuses me. Bonus points if the Heir is a hetro-sexually oriented male who happens to be, like, an inch or two tall and fancy's himself an adventurer some time later. Even more bonus points if when he's old enough he finds he has a taste for formidable warrior women, and he's a caster/skills focus class. XD! Hey, you could even use that as the hook for a variant of the lady knight rescuing him idea, it would be adorable, and hilarious!

Reathin
2014-09-22, 01:06 PM
Hire a wizard (emperors should have better access to them) and pay for a clone spell (or a two-for-one deal perhaps). The problem of the bloodline is rapidly less critical when the Emperor's death is no longer really in the cards.

And besides, His Immortal Imperial Highness is a title just about any self-respecting emperor in a magical world should strive for.

Any complaints about running out of clones can be met with the fact that clones are way easier to develop then children.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-22, 02:03 PM
And besides, His Immortal Imperial Highness is a title just about any self-respecting emperor in a magical world who wants to be assassinated should strive for.


Corrected - in a magical world rife with murderhobos and genuine nastiness, taking a title like that is epic-level shmuck bait. Heck, all it takes to foil a Clone spell is a Thinaun weapon in the hands of the assassin...so if the ruler's anti-assassin defenses aren't sufficient in the first place, their contingencies won't matter. Declaring yourself to be immortal/unkillable/perpetual just raises the caliber of challengers.

Sartharina
2014-09-22, 02:45 PM
Corrected - in a magical world rife with murderhobos and genuine nastiness, taking a title like that is epic-level shmuck bait. Heck, all it takes to foil a Clone spell is a Thinaun weapon in the hands of the assassin...so if the ruler's anti-assassin defenses aren't sufficient in the first place, their contingencies won't matter. Declaring yourself to be immortal/unkillable/perpetual just raises the caliber of challengers.The Golden Toilet Still Flushes Chaos Away.

Erik Vale
2014-09-22, 03:16 PM
Hire a wizard (emperors should have better access to them) and pay for a clone spell (or a two-for-one deal perhaps). The problem of the bloodline is rapidly less critical when the Emperor's death is no longer really in the cards.

And besides, His Immortal Imperial Highness is a title just about any self-respecting emperor in a magical world should strive for.

Any complaints about running out of clones can be met with the fact that clones are way easier to develop then children.

Applause to you, that may be better.
As long as he doesn't out and out declare it.

veti
2014-09-22, 04:46 PM
Even leaving aside whatever undefined nasty stuff will happen without this bloodline...

The lack of an heir in a feudal society typically leads to a lot of chaos and death. Exactly how much chaos occurs depends on a lot of different factors, but it is not unreasonable to say that the Prince failing to do this particular job risks the lives of each and every citizen under his rule.

This.

Nobody in a feudal society gets to just do whatever they want. That sort of freedom - even contemplating it is far more anachronistic than any amount of sexual tolerance. Everyone has a place and a duty, determined (usually) from birth; there may be some freedom about how you discharge that duty, but the option to "just forget about it" would instantly cast you as an outlaw/brigand.

That's how royalty works. It's not just "sit back and boss the peasants around", it's about duties. Sometimes, unpleasant ones. But if you want to keep the job, you do the duties; if you don't, there's usually no shortage of other candidates waiting to replace you.

Erik Vale
2014-09-22, 05:35 PM
if you don't, there's usually no shortage of other candidates waiting to replace you.

Given the number of candidates in any democracy, yep. Of course, there's a tendency for feudal monarchies in medieval periods not to be replaced by them, but by other feudal monarchies, or dictatorships.

Coidzor
2014-09-22, 07:25 PM
Corrected - in a magical world rife with murderhobos and genuine nastiness, taking a title like that is epic-level shmuck bait. Heck, all it takes to foil a Clone spell is a Thinaun weapon in the hands of the assassin...so if the ruler's anti-assassin defenses aren't sufficient in the first place, their contingencies won't matter. Declaring yourself to be immortal/unkillable/perpetual just raises the caliber of challengers.

Murderhobos being notoriously bad with metaphor. :smallamused:

tomandtish
2014-09-22, 11:24 PM
This is an interesting scenario, but I think we need some more information.

What happens if the bloodline isn't continued? Are the consequences political? Magical? Both? Can the bloodline be faked? "Why look, here's my 'son' with my wife, despite the fact she spent the last year in her father's castle 1000 leagues away". Does our Emperor know the consequences (or thinks he knows)?

How much power does the Emperor actually have? Does he rule with his own force, or are other nobles providing the bulk of his troops and his might? (That is, if he decides to be stubborn do they have a serious shot of taking the throne from him and does he understand it if they do?).

For that matter, how did he get into this position of having a consort in the first place? As other's have said, usually the marriage of the heir to the throne (and that of the spare for that matter) is arranged well before the heir takes the throne. The marriage may or may not be held until after they are crowned, but the arrangements are made. And the heir usually has little to no say in the matter, as it is based on political need. If the society is so progressive that they have no problem with him openly (is it openly?) having a male consort, then how come no one saw this potential problem coming? When used with Monarchs, Consort usually means spouse, so if it is open then everyone (or enough) said "Sure Emperor Joe, Count John can be your consort". Was everyone just assuming he'd later take a wife in addition in order to create the heir? For that matter, what are the laws regarding marriage, annulment, etc.? Depending on what you mean by consort, technically his child with someone else would be a bastard. Would that child be eligible to rule? The society seems enlightened, but are they that enlightened?

Sartharina
2014-09-23, 12:43 AM
Murderhobos being notoriously bad with metaphor. :smallamused:Finger on Throat Means Death!

Cazero
2014-09-23, 04:02 AM
The main question here is the actual importance of the bloodline. We know it's powerful, but does it absolutely need to be continued ad eternam?

If it doesn't, well, he's the emperor. He can make whatever law he wants, like transitionning to some form of democracy/aristocracy wich doesn't require an absolute ruler and is ruled by a parliament/lord's chamber instead (preventing chaos of no heir situation), or simply create/use adoption laws for gays couples (providing an heir).

If it does, well he's the emperor. He can make whatever complicated law he wants, including a law allowing gay couples to (be) inseminate(d) by a relative for an heir, defining accurate legal status for all parties involved, and then lay back and think of England. That's still "suck it up", but there should be much less trouble attached.

NichG
2014-09-23, 08:29 AM
Its a misconception that the head of state in a feudal system can just make any law that they want though. Their power is being supported by the power of everyone who serves under them, and if they upset those people enough then things stop getting done. This doesn't mean he can't try, but it will generate a lot of plot along the way.

Maybe those feudal lords have to obey the emperor's decree or be declared to be in rebellion, but they can show their displeasure in a hundred other ways by driving down the efficiency at which tasks get carried out. So if the emperor pisses them off by passing an unpopular law, suddenly the empire is having a lot of trouble getting the levee they requested for war efforts (we're a progressive empire so we don't use conscription, but no one volunteered this year for some reason), or the tax money doesn't flow in (it was a lean year so we gave our peasants a break - it'll pay off in 10), or otherwise bureaucracy makes things start to break down. Or the nobles start plotting to put pressure on the emperor in other ways (well, we have to do our feudal duties, but we can shut out the emperor from some of our more profitable intrigues so he doesn't actually know as much about what's going on in his empire anymore).

So the emperor can't just do whatever he wants. He has to do things that make his feudal lords happy enough that he stays in power (both actually being able to get them to do their feudal duties well, but also staving off the threat of a rebellion or plot). Inheritance laws are going to be particularly touchy, because they not only influence what the emperor wants to do but they also influence the succession patterns in all the various noble families. So by making that one change, now there's a dozen nobles who thought they'd be inheriting their family's title but now are finding they have to contest it with someone who was previously considered illegitimate by law, or whatever.

So okay, the emperor only changes the laws about imperial succession and has them be different than the succession laws for the realm. Well, now maybe there are a couple nobles who would have been candidates for emperor under the new law, but weren't at the last succession due to the old law being in place then. It's just the thing to get them all ambitious and thinking that maybe they deserve to be on that throne instead of the current emperor. Maybe they can even convince enough people of that to take a shot at splitting the empire. Or maybe, if the current emperor dies before having an heir this way, then because of the change in the law suddenly they've got a shot at it. This wouldn't necessarily change the overall number of threats like this in the empire, but the big problem is that it changes the primary actors - so if the emperor has been using his intrigues to keep the biggest threats down, then when those people become less of a threat and a new crop suddenly becomes a risk, the emperor has to act fast to adapt.

Suddenly going 'hey, we're a democracy now' would most likely just be hitting the 'civil war' button. He's basically disenfranchising all of the feudal lords - what benefit is it to them to carry out his will and calmly hand over their power?

veti
2014-09-23, 05:32 PM
So the emperor can't just do whatever he wants. He has to do things that make his feudal lords happy enough that he stays in power (both actually being able to get them to do their feudal duties well, but also staving off the threat of a rebellion or plot). Inheritance laws are going to be particularly touchy, because they not only influence what the emperor wants to do but they also influence the succession patterns in all the various noble families. So by making that one change, now there's a dozen nobles who thought they'd be inheriting their family's title but now are finding they have to contest it with someone who was previously considered illegitimate by law, or whatever.

Yep, for a monarch to mess with inheritance laws is a sure and direct shortcut to civil war.

Imagine you're the elder son of a noble, looking forward to inheriting a nice little holding. You've been bred pretty much from the cradle to fight, educated in warfare and politics (and very little else). All your life, you've known that your job was to step into your father's shoes one day and support the emperor as required.

Then you hear, through whatever grapevine you get your information from (with who knows how many distortions along the way), that the emperor is changing all those rules. The life you took for granted - isn't there any more.

And your father is going to be just as pissed as you - he's arranged everything in his life around this assumption, including the education he's given his children and the deals he's cut with his neighbours, and he's looking forward to a nice peaceful old age. Now the basis of all that is being changed, he's got a buttload of work to do over again, and all because the emperor has a metaphorical headache?

Worse, if he's done this once, he's untrustworthy and arbitrary, and could just as easily undo it tomorrow. Time for a new emperor. (That's approximately how the Wars of the Roses started in England, by the way.)


Suddenly going 'hey, we're a democracy now' would most likely just be hitting the 'civil war' button. He's basically disenfranchising all of the feudal lords - what benefit is it to them to carry out his will and calmly hand over their power?

Yes, again: democracy takes time (measured in generations) to build, and I don't think anyone has ever succeeded in doing it "from the top down", by decree.

Tengu_temp
2014-09-24, 08:01 PM
Why do people keep saying the emperor should just tough it out and impregnate a woman when the OP said he's not comfortable with that and would rather go with something else? So what if it's the most historically accurate option. There's nothing historically accurate about a fantasy land with magic. Deal with it.

Flickerdart
2014-09-24, 08:05 PM
Step 1: Acquire vampire.
Step 2: Divest emperor of a quantity of blood.
Step 3: Pump blood into designated heir.

JusticeZero
2014-09-24, 09:21 PM
We keep saying that because refusing means the next hook is "We need to get close enough to put a Greater geas on the Prince, can you help with some cloak and dagger work and make it happen?"

Sartharina
2014-09-24, 09:40 PM
We keep saying that because refusing means the next hook is "We need to get close enough to put a Greater geas on the Prince, can you help with some cloak and dagger work and make it happen?"

No, it's not.

NichG
2014-09-24, 09:46 PM
Well, the other point is that its possible to write yourself into a corner - you can set up a situation where you can't have your cake and eat it too. So sometimes you have to ask why you're creating a particular situation and if you need to do so at all.

When you set up something like 'the emperor is gay, but must father a direct heir, but I don't want him to just go along with it for duty's sake' then you've created a situation designed to create tension around the parameters of the situation. E.g. 'something has gotta give'. When you create a MacGuffin that resolves it, you're using that tension to drive plot for the PCs - its a traditional staple of gaming. Deep in some tomb is the Scepter of Bloodline Transference, etc, etc.

The thing is, for that tension to work, there has to be an 'or else'. If the emperor doesn't manage to acquire/perform the miracle that no one thinks is possible, he will be forced to do X. If there is no real 'or else' or if the 'or else' isn't compelling to the PCs, then it will weaken the impression of the plotline on them. Instead of 'this guy is really in trouble, so lets help him' it'll be 'oh, a quest; I guess we do quests'.

So to come back to the beginning, that 'or else' has to be something that is a bit uncomfortable for people or it doesn't feel like a real push for people to want to intervene. Often in RPGs its 'or people will die' but players get numb to that after awhile; here you're creating a tension which may be a lot more personal for the players and so might bypass some of the 'save the world' ennui. Normally that'd be great, but if it makes you uncomfortable to use a situation where someone may be compelled by the state to act against their sexual orientation as a plot-driving tension, then maybe its best not to create a situation which has that kind of threat to it in the first place.

Its worth keeping in mind that even if you set up a MacGuffin that can solve things, there is some possibility that the players follow the same line of thinking as people on the thread and decide that the emperor's will isn't important here - e.g. they end up being the ones forcing him to 'lie back and think of England'. So if you're uncomfortable with that possibility, you really have to be careful about writing in a situation where its a readily-available answer to the problem.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-24, 11:02 PM
Its worth keeping in mind that even if you set up a MacGuffin that can solve things, there is some possibility that the players follow the same line of thinking as people on the thread and decide that the emperor's will isn't important here - e.g. they end up being the ones forcing him to 'lie back and think of England'. So if you're uncomfortable with that possibility, you really have to be careful about writing in a situation where its a readily-available answer to the problem.

That awkward moment when you realize the emperor is asking talented, one-of-a-kind heroes to risk their lives so he doesn't have to deal with mild discomfort for a few minutes.

Sartharina
2014-09-24, 11:06 PM
That awkward moment when you realize the emperor is asking talented, one-of-a-kind heroes to risk their lives so he doesn't have to deal with mild discomfort for a few minutes.Y'know... there's a term for the act associated with that 'mild discomfort'.

Erik Vale
2014-09-24, 11:22 PM
No, it's not.

I agree. You need to be targeting the emperor instead... And if you can do that, then it's entirely possible that someone could have already been tampering with him to try and cause a civil war, as many suggestions other than 'Tell him boo hoo' or 'Grab a gender change belts and tell the prince boo hoo'.


Also, more than minor discomfort. I'm fine with gay people myself on a logical level, but if I even see two men kissing I've got to resist the urge to hurl on a physical level, so I doubt minor discomfort begins to cover it. In the same way 'The sun is warm' covers the sun being so hot that you would be vaporised killometers away if you attempted to approach it.

NichG
2014-09-25, 12:35 AM
Whether the discomfort is minor or not isn't really the point. The point is that from the players' point of view the emperor is likely going to appear to be a selfish jerk for putting everyone at risk, no matter how major the discomfort would be. After all, the PCs put their lives at risk for the sake of fewer lives on a daily basis - those battle wounds and fallen comrades aren't a minor discomfort either. So regardless of what the world as a whole feels about the emperor's situation, the DM has to be prepared for two possibilities at the least:

1. The PCs find the emperor's plight to be uncompelling due to the former comparison and develop a general contempt for the emperor as a result. This may interfere with other impressions the DM wants to give and lead to PC ennui/snarkiness/detachment, especially if the emperor is a quest giver in other ways as well. This may not happen, but you have to be aware that its possible and be ready to deal with it if it does happen. If the DM is made uncomfortable by the possibility that their players may end up disliking the emperor because of the consequences of his sexual orientation being combined with this particular scenario, then its very important to be aware that its a possible outcome of designing a story like this.

2. The PCs decide to solve the problem by brute-force, via whatever combination of hypnosis, drugs, magic, etc is needed to compel the emperor's behavior. If the DM is uncomfortable with the 'lie back and think of England' solution, then he needs to be aware that something like this could result from a more extreme version of the reaction in case 1.

Now, one could say 'but those are just possibilities, it may not go that way'. And it may not. But the responses in the thread should at least be considered a warning that the responses of players may be similar in nature. And if that's going to take the game somewhere that the DM is uncomfortable with, it may be worth changing the initial details of the scenario rather than trying to come up with more ways the emperor could solve his problem.

The issue is the intersection of this 'magical bloodline of the hero' detail with everything else; remove that and it means that the PC response is likely to be far less severe. The reason has to do with the cause of the trouble. When there's a magical bloodline protecting the world, then the conflict is between the realities of the universe and the emperor's will. Generally its harder to consider 'the universe is in the wrong' and act upon that productively than it is to consider 'a person is in the wrong' and act upon that productively. So the emperor is going to come across as less sympathetic as a result.

When there's no magic to the bloodline and its just a succession crisis, then both sides of the trouble have a human origin. Yes, the emperor is being a bit selfish, but so are the nobles who will clamor for the throne and slaughter eachother if he doesn't produce an heir. So when its human vs human, its a lot easier for the players to go with someone who seems to have the moral high ground. In that kind of situation, the PCs can come to the conclusion 'the feudal lords are in the wrong and we're going to force through a change in succession law' or other such things.

Flashy
2014-09-25, 02:30 AM
Step 1: Acquire vampire.
Step 2: Divest emperor of a quantity of blood.
Step 3: Pump blood into designated heir.

I don't know why, but this is far and away my favorite option so far.

Coidzor
2014-09-25, 04:03 AM
Y'know... there's a term for the act associated with that 'mild discomfort'.

Joyless sex in a loveless marriage? :smalltongue: AKA, par for the course.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-25, 04:12 AM
No.
The term is rape.

Coidzor
2014-09-25, 04:14 AM
No.
The term is rape.

Oh, to be sure, that's been suggested in this thread, but despite Sartharina wanting to make that parallel, what she was actually replying to was exactly as I put it.

Segev
2014-09-25, 09:14 AM
Yes, please, let's be very, very careful what we characterize as "rape," here. Rape is a horrific crime even beyond other forms of unpleasant sexual interaction.

A prostitute or a kept woman is not generally being raped (absent other considerations beyond the "she's being paid for sex" one) just because she finds her paying customer repugnant. A man guilted into having sex with a woman he doesn't like because it will somehow be "good" to do so is not being raped, as much as he may not enjoy it.

I won't say it is an untraumatic experience; sex is intensely personal and is arguably designed to be the more-than-symbollic giving of oneself to another. Using it for tawdry or pragmatic purposes is likely to jade and scar, emotionally.

But rape is something else altogether. And the modern tendency to cry it over things that are not it risks cheapening it when it really happens.


"You have a duty to produce an heir, so endure the experience with somebody who is not out to hurt you nor prove any sort of dominance over you, and simply wants to help you fulfill this duty," is not rape. It's probably not pleasant, and it probably is emotionally scarring, but it's not rape.

If you got rid of the "magical bloodline" thing, it could even be faked: find a girl who has a lover she wants to keep secret. Let them meet in the Emperor's chambers, pretending she's meeting with the Emperor. When she's pregnant, claim it's the Emperor's kid.

Dienekes
2014-09-25, 09:24 AM
There really isn't much to discuss here, I think.

The guy has a bloodline you continue the bloodline through sex with a member of the opposite gender.

So his solutions are:
Deal with it and knock someone up, through turkey baster if necessary
Bring in close relative who shares bloodline, adopt them.
Use magic to solve conundrum, because magic.

Pick whichever suits your story. Admittedly, each has their problems either morally, politically, or dramatically, but thems the breaks.

Segev
2014-09-25, 09:53 AM
There really isn't much to discuss here, I think.

The guy has a bloodline you continue the bloodline through sex with a member of the opposite gender.

So his solutions are:
Deal with it and knock someone up, through turkey baster if necessary
Bring in close relative who shares bloodline, adopt them.
Use magic to solve conundrum, because magic.

Pick whichever suits your story. Admittedly, each has their problems either morally, politically, or dramatically, but thems the breaks.
Just want to second this one. It's a good summary.

JusticeZero
2014-09-25, 10:11 AM
No.
The term is rape.
No, it isn't rape to make this unreasonable request. It is not rape if the Prince uncomfortably acquiesces to this bit of awkwardness. I wouldn't even say that it is likely to be particularly scarring. Seriously, this is the kind of thing people today have been doing for various reasons, and they refer to it using language befitting 'distaste'.
If coercion is required, the person doing the coercion is definitely guilty of something; that something is generally considered a somewhat lesser crime than murder, which I am sure a group of murderhoboes is not going to be horribly fased by as an alternative to going on a vast romp across lakes of other peoples blood and bodily organs while themselves being maimed and stabbed. All to do something - resist the responsibilities of their position because of their own desires - which, at that social class level, is even today in a similar class of unheard of deviance as wanting to marry two goldfish and a Buick.
Again noting that there is this "Magical Bloodline" thing which means that a lot of people are very possibly going to be slaughtered, watch their children die in front of their faces or whatever, because the Prince doesn't want to fulfill his obligations which aren't even permanent or even especially time consuming; they are on par with occasionally scooping out a cat litter box or washing dishes in an over full sink that has been left too long with the help of someone who is at least sympathetic and has the hard part of the job.
If you take the magic bloodline out, then you have all sorts of other alternatives - but as long as he needs to do this ritual task to prevent widespread mayhem, and the ritual task is actually this minor, then you should expect this response.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-09-25, 11:24 AM
Firstly, the Emperor will have had it forced into his head, from the day he was old enough to understand speech, that the second of his duties (after protecting the throne) is to produce an heir to said throne.

We're not talking an option - it's something he has to do, whether he likes it or not. No ifs, no buts. End of discussion.

Which may be a reason (or one of many) that he's gay.

Secondly, I'm not sure gender-switching would necessarily work - the switchee is still essentially the same person, but, depending on the other person's preferences, they may not be physically attractive to them afterwards.

Thirdly, there's always the possibility that this may have happened before, and procedures were put in place by the great^n-grandparent - whether that's bringing in a close relative to actually do the deed (maybe the party have to bring him to the palace, or escort him from the palace after the deed is done, and then protect him from rivals to the throne who'd use him for their own ends), having the prince-consort involved as well in the royal bedchamber, judicious use of the royal turkey baster, magic (illusions, incomplete shapeshifting, compulsion, memory manipulation after the event and so on), drugs (hallucinogens or narcotics), or having the Empress just do the deed while he's asleep (I think I just squicked myself out there, let alone anyone else :smalleek:).

With specific legal exemptions as necessary.

In fact, with magic, there's the opportunity for temporary possession/body swapping - the Emperor doesn't actually do the deed, his body does (thus transferring the bloodline) with someone else in the driving seat.

And maybe the Empress wonders why the Emperor's completely uninterested 99.999% of the time, all but ripping her clothes off on each night that she's at her most fertile, then having a very long bath the following morning as though he's trying to completely cleanse himself of something particularly distasteful - or maybe she knows full well, and has her own consort (whether male or female themselves) who's the other party to the body swapping.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-26, 10:06 AM
That awkward moment when you realize the emperor is asking talented, one-of-a-kind heroes to risk their lives so he doesn't have to deal with mild discomfort for a few minutes.

Y'know... there's a term for the act associated with that 'mild discomfort'.
Joyless sex in a loveless marriage? :smalltongue: AKA, par for the course.
No.
The term is rape.

I didn't say "put a gun to the emperor's head and tell him that he'll die unless he bangs the empress", I said to convince him to do it. You know, with reason, and not coercion.

Knaight
2014-09-26, 12:43 PM
Even leaving aside whatever undefined nasty stuff will happen without this bloodline...

The lack of an heir in a feudal society typically leads to a lot of chaos and death. Exactly how much chaos occurs depends on a lot of different factors, but it is not unreasonable to say that the Prince failing to do this particular job risks the lives of each and every citizen under his rule.

There's chaos and death regardless. Smooth power transitions in feudal society are a joke. It's often worse without an heir, but there tend to be messes regardless.

As for the actual topic, artificial insemination should work. It's not like the technology behind them is really all that sophisticated, and the emperor has the budget to have things machined to high precision. Plus, you know, magic.

sktarq
2014-09-26, 03:56 PM
As for the actual topic, artificial insemination should work. It's not like the technology behind them is really all that sophisticated, and the emperor has the budget to have things machined to high precision. Plus, you know, magic.

Work and in produce a child yes, but produce an heir is a separate question.
In a place where bloodline is important (even if not the everything that it is in the draconic nation nearby) then magical means of producing children would be a big issue. Also unless the prince consort is not treated the same as queen then the emperor would child would either need to be the result of adultery or polygamy...which could be a problem with rules of succession. If we say the child is a bastard then the question comes up of how bastards are treated in the empire. If they can inherit (basically the blood totally supersedes station) then such a choice would have consequences. A young lad getting hit with a charm person or glibness casting young sorceress who just imbibed a fertility potion would suddenly have upended the political scene if the lad was the heir to the local lordship. Which may change the nature of the Empire in ways the DM doesn't want. If bastards can't inherit then the emperor wanting his son to threatens to destabilize every inheritance (at least within the noble class) as various bastards and children of bastards claim the same right as the heir designate-or various nobles act to prevent such claims etc.
Also with the focus on bloodlines even just rumors of various slight-of-hands on who is actually the father would be a big issue. Common fodder for bards tales and children's bedtime stories. To say either a system to officiate and authenticate bloodlines and what counts as official vs authentic for inheritance needs to be created or massive distrust would push out any acceptance of magical aid/ not natural birth or whatnot. The more import is put on bloodline the more people with d stuff, including nasty stuff, to protect said bloodline.
So whatever choice is made the issue of how a bloodline focused empire deals with bastards/adultery/polygamy will have to dealt with too. Either as the Emperor is using such rules to get an heir, or going up against them as a source of conflict in the Empire.

Which may be why even if possible to produce an heir magical means. Adopting his second cousin who has the right heritage is the easier option.

Wardog
2014-09-27, 05:36 AM
Alternatively:

Emperor decides ensuring the continuation of the bloodline and legitimacy of his heir is more important than personal feelings, so divorces his prince and marries a politically suitable noblewoman.

Prince is understandably upset.

Cue recriminations, plotting, conflicts of loyalty, people claiming the Empress's child can't possibly be the Emperors (because everyone knows he's gay), other factions trying to exploit the situation, and threats to the stability of the realm, etc.

Exactly the sort of thing that you may need a group of adventurers to sort out.

Slipperychicken
2014-09-27, 09:53 AM
Alternatively:

Emperor decides ensuring the continuation of the bloodline and legitimacy of his heir is more important than personal feelings, so divorces his prince and marries a politically suitable noblewoman.

Prince is understandably upset.


Or we could do something which has been re-hashed a dozen times over in this thread:

He could simply write down the "official" marriage on paper, do his duty when needed, keep the wife in some room on the other side of the palace with plenty of handsome young men to keep her happy, then spend his time with the prince and continue to be just as lovey-dovey as before. That's more or less what nobles often did anyway. They knew that marriages were all about business, so they keep mistresses and things for pleasure. Of course, he'd talk the prince through all this beforehand, assuring him that the emperor still loves the prince as much as ever, and that these arrangements are entirely his duty to the empire. In ideal circumstances, the prince would agree and hopefully get over it.

Sith_Happens
2014-09-28, 03:42 AM
It somehow just now occurred to me: You said that the country in question has no problems culturally with an Emperor/Prince-Consort pair. Have they actually had to deal with such in practice before, or is this the first time ever? Because if the former, then they should by now have established procedures and relevant laws for it.

Coidzor
2014-09-28, 07:00 PM
Or there's clauses dealing with same-sex marriages and succession via designated reproductive proxy which wouldn't involve anything that would have any effect on the way that inheritance would work for heterosexual noble pairings.

S@tanicoaldo
2014-09-28, 08:22 PM
Think about Renly and Loras form the Game of thrones series.

They love each other But Renly wants to be king. So he puts the feelings aside and do what he must to be a good king. (And keep having a relationship with his squire in secret).

It is not fair with the queen but love is something created by the modern society. It has no place in the court.

Sartharina
2014-09-28, 09:17 PM
It is not fair with the queen but love is something created by the modern society. It has no place in the court.I think this attitude is more recent than you purport Love to be.

Dienekes
2014-09-28, 09:44 PM
I think this attitude is more recent than you purport Love to be.

There actually have been quite a few interesting studies on the origins of romantic love and its displays throughout history. There is a debate currently going in academia whether or not "courtly love" of the medieval period is anything at all like the notions of romance we find today. Though the jury is still out (and probably will be for our natural lives, academics love arguing around in circles), it's widely agreed the displays of love and how people in societies reacted about feelings of romance are very different to what the current western influenced perception of love is.

While personally, I find the whole thing rather dull if you're interested there are a few books on the subject I could recommend.

Red Fel
2014-09-28, 09:49 PM
The idea of having an "official" spouse for the sole purpose of procreation, and a "recognized partner" for... well... everything else... isn't unheard of. Or modern, either. The concept of the Maitress-en-titre, also known as the Chief Mistress or Official Mistress, emerged in the court of King Henry IV of France in the late 1500s. One of the most famous of these was Jeanne Antoinette Poisson, also known as Madame de Pompadour, fourth Official Mistress of King Louis XV; she was installed at the palace at Versailles, complete with official title and recognition by the royal court, managed various household affairs and took charge of the king's schedule, got along with the actual Queen Consort, Marie Leszczynska, and was bloody brilliant on top of everything else.

The thing to remember is that, in the royal court, everyone knows and understands their role. And the monarch's primary role is to preserve the line of the monarchy and the stability of the country. So long as he does that, he can do pretty much whatever, to whomever, however, and whenever he wants.

Let the Emperor take a bride. Make it a political marriage, if you like, or not. Just because he's not romantically interested in her doesn't mean they can't be good friends. Anyway, she'll be the bloody Empress, which isn't a bad consolation prize; as long as she produces his heir and promotes the face of a stable marriage and monarch, I don't think anyone will mind if she has a lover on the side. They'll have a marriage and an heir, and he can have his true love. Heck, give him an official post and title and install him in the palace. Unless homosexuality is a taboo in this setting, I don't see any problems.

Knaight
2014-09-29, 01:14 AM
Work and in produce a child yes, but produce an heir is a separate question.
In a place where bloodline is important (even if not the everything that it is in the draconic nation nearby) then magical means of producing children would be a big issue.

I'm talking about something akin to a turkey baster. Simple technology, which might have magical production, maybe even some magical materials (e.g. pseudorubber), but which doesn't really need any of it.

sktarq
2014-09-29, 02:08 AM
I'm talking about something akin to a turkey baster. Simple technology, which might have magical production, maybe even some magical materials (e.g. pseudorubber), but which doesn't really need any of it.
Magical or not, depending on how the local populous/nobility feels about it any non natural birth could well be suspect. Using subterfuge or secret magic to have two reservoirs in the baster and collecting the Emperors "seed" and squirting the other sample. Or having a second baster and using slight-of-hand to switch them out. Or even just the rumours that these might have happened would be an issue. Even if it isn't necessarily a consideration in this case per se a number of such scares at some point in history could have thrown problems onto this method in the minds of those who need to buy into the heir's right to inherit. And when it comes to Kings those rules that focus on the monarch's main job of preventing instability tend to get stricter (as the others get more open to royal right to do whatever) and succession is one of those areas that tend to draw the stricter interpretations as you climb the social ranks overall anyway.
That said there could be an official royal turkey baster with official keepers and users for just these sorts of things and it is loaned out to nobles with fertility problems and so while any other turkey baster based pregnancy is invalid one with the the "special" one and team is fine.
But it still wouldn't change issues of heirs from an adulterous or polygamous relationship. And how the society views such children.
Its a matter of any technique that the DM chooses to use as OK is either going to be okay in the society in general (which could be problematic on a wider level) or going to be set up in opposition to social norms and dealing with such consequences.

LokiRagnarok
2014-09-29, 02:56 AM
The turkey baster is sentient, can tell who it has been used on and is magically enchanted to only speak the truth (or heck, throw it into a Zone of Truth). Problem solved.

Erik Vale
2014-09-29, 03:18 AM
That doesn't even need to be sarcastic, that'd be good as an actual idea... It'd stop the table due to laughter for a while, and you'd kinda hope you never needed to talk for it, but it'd work.

Segev
2014-09-29, 08:24 AM
It strains credulity that an empire wherein the bloodline of the ruler is critical would have laws which both allowed an inevitably infertile match and which prevented alternative parentage. Bastards were traditionally a problem in noble lines precisely because they could inherit, and it was a sticky question as to whether they could inherit ahead of younger legitimate half-siblings. It was generally - though not always - considered binding if the noble in question recognized one of his bastard children and declared him in the line of succession. (Female nobility had it a little easier; it's clearly her kid, and whether it's a bastard or not is not provable pre-DNA unless she's known to not be married.)

But they did consider the bloodline to be sufficient to make a case. In this empire, the bloodline is literally the source of the protective magic. So the laws would be carefully written to ensure that, whatever happened, the Emperor's blood progeny (and relatives) would be eligible for the throne.

Therefore, even if the laws allow for same-sex unions with legal force equal to marriage, they would NOT be written to preclude a heterosexual union between the Emperor and a fertile mate from producing an heir in the event that the Emperor's designated Queen or Prince-Consort were unable to produce one (for any reason).

In fact, if anything, this would be a strong reason to have a law which, even if this is normally not permitted, gave the Emperor a legal right (and perhaps responsibility) to have a harem of wives and concubines, the children of which are all considered legitimate. Even if nobody else is permitted this, it makes sense due to the national security concerns surrounding the imperial bloodline. If the Emperor (or Empress) happens to ALSO fill it with members of his (or her) own sex for his...personal taste...that's his (or her) prerogative. Though that would open sticky questions of the parentage of the harem-produced children, since the mixed-sex harem could be *ahem* entertaining itself. At least with a male Emperor. A female Empress obviously is going to know which kids are hers.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-09-29, 09:09 AM
In fact, if anything, this would be a strong reason to have a law which, even if this is normally not permitted, gave the Emperor a legal right (and perhaps responsibility) to have a harem of wives and concubines, the children of which are all considered legitimate. Even if nobody else is permitted this, it makes sense due to the national security concerns surrounding the imperial bloodline. If the Emperor (or Empress) happens to ALSO fill it with members of his (or her) own sex for his...personal taste...that's his (or her) prerogative. Though that would open sticky questions of the parentage of the harem-produced children, since the mixed-sex harem could be *ahem* entertaining itself. At least with a male Emperor. A female Empress obviously is going to know which kids are hers.
The Emperor (or Empress) could always have the male part of their harem at one end of the palace and the female part at the other end, plus some guards of the same gender as their charges, to keep them separate.

Or possibly on separate islands, in different lakes. :smallamused:

Alternatively maybe the clerks are very, very good at keeping track, there's an extensive garden full of alchemical supplies, that, to quote Terry Pratchett, allow you to sow your wild oats whilst guaranting a crop failure, or perhaps they've invented physical contraception methods.

Or maybe the harem's carefully selected so that those members who're the same gender as the ruler aren't attracted in any way to the other gender - thus essentially rendering the point moot.

Ettina
2014-09-29, 09:12 AM
No.
The term is rape.

What's worse - that one guy gets raped or that an entire nation get thrown into chaos, causing deaths of a large proportion of the population?

I'm a rape victim, and I'd still support telling him to put up with it if the nation depended on it.

Segev
2014-09-29, 10:00 AM
Again, it's not rape. It is, at worst, an unpleasant duty, and it can be done as clinically as desired. Heck, "turkey baster" approaches do not even require actual intercourse.

JusticeZero
2014-09-29, 12:01 PM
Right, I mean, it's about 10 minutes of awkwardness with someone who is most likely at least a friend of theirs and probably also preferring to be with her own boyfriend (or girlfriend), done a couple times a month for a short period of time, to hold closed the oblivion gate or whatever. That's IT.
The cost is... not horribly severe - how many other fiction stories show people doing things like slicing their hand open to get blood to activate the whatchamajig? Nobody is terribly shocked by "I slice my hand open and grab the blood drinking rune to seal the great evil in". Why should we be horrified by "*sigh* I have to go do.. *stuff*.. with my friend Princess Jennifer after dinner before I can go snuggle my boyfriend"?

SaintRidley
2014-09-29, 12:41 PM
An option I didn't see noted:

Our queer emperor doesn't want, by any means, to produce an heir. There's pressure, sure. Everyone's begging him to. But no, he is not going to succumb to such petty and unnecessary things. He's better than that and he's got a better idea in mind.

So our emperor uses foul magic to transform himself into [choose your favorite immortal intelligent undead]. Boom, no heir needed. Plus, you get the stability of a single emperor forever (provided our emperor can stand up to the wars and such which will undoubtedly occur in the aftermath - but he gets to maintain his position and not compromise his sexuality). Perhaps cast Gentle Repose on his own corpse daily and people might not even catch on for a few decades, enough time that he could establish enough credibility with the nobility and the peasantry that they like having him as emperor and don't feel much desire for a new one.

Of course, going this route might well indulge in far greater evil than that which the bloodline is preventing from befalling the kingdom. Such is the price of hubris, after all.

And then the mists take him and his kingdom plunges into great turmoil while he's tormented in Ravenloft as a dark lord.

Talakeal
2014-09-29, 01:11 PM
The whole "homosexuality" problem is almost irrelevant here. The OP says that he is uncomfortable with having sex as a duty and that isn't on the table, so it is really irrelevant why. The emperor could be sterile or in a monogamous relationship with a female who for whatever reason can't bear their children, the emperor could be a woman who can't bring a child to term, could be a member of the clergy who has taken a vow of chastity, could be a child doomed to die before maturity, could have a crippling genetic disease, could simply be asexual, etc.

There is no solution to this problem. If they are the only person who carries the bloodline (which is kind of a bad setup in the first place IMO, what would happen if the emperor chokes on a grape and dies before producing an heir?), and for ANY reason they can't produce children, then the bloodline is going to die out.

The only way for this to work is for some magical / technological macguffin comes along that allows them to produce a child without sex or transfer the bloodline to an adoptive heir. There really isn't any other option.

Knaight
2014-09-29, 01:31 PM
There is no solution to this problem. If they are the only person who carries the bloodline (which is kind of a bad setup in the first place IMO, what would happen if the emperor chokes on a grape and dies before producing an heir?), and for ANY reason they can't produce children, then the bloodline is going to die out.

The only way for this to work is for some magical / technological macguffin comes along that allows them to produce a child without sex or transfer the bloodline to an adoptive heir. There really isn't any other option.

Where the technological macguffin is a glorified syringe, sure. Modern materials aren't needed. Modern knowledge isn't needed (an understanding of pressure helps, but it's such a basic understanding that basically any culture sophisticated enough to understand blowpipes has it under control). It's about as much of a macguffin as technology that lets one walk where it's too cold for bare feet.

hymer
2014-09-29, 01:44 PM
It's about as much of a macguffin as technology that lets one walk where it's too cold for bare feet.

In any truly civilized nation, cobblers should be kings. *slips into slippers*

JusticeZero
2014-09-29, 01:55 PM
The OP says that he is uncomfortable with having sex as a duty and that isn't on the tableAnd yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.

The Glyphstone
2014-09-29, 03:54 PM
An option I didn't see noted:

Our queer emperor doesn't want, by any means, to produce an heir. There's pressure, sure. Everyone's begging him to. But no, he is not going to succumb to such petty and unnecessary things. He's better than that and he's got a better idea in mind.

So our emperor uses foul magic to transform himself into [choose your favorite immortal intelligent undead]. Boom, no heir needed. Plus, you get the stability of a single emperor forever (provided our emperor can stand up to the wars and such which will undoubtedly occur in the aftermath - but he gets to maintain his position and not compromise his sexuality). Perhaps cast Gentle Repose on his own corpse daily and people might not even catch on for a few decades, enough time that he could establish enough credibility with the nobility and the peasantry that they like having him as emperor and don't feel much desire for a new one.

Of course, going this route might well indulge in far greater evil than that which the bloodline is preventing from befalling the kingdom. Such is the price of hubris, after all.

And then the mists take him and his kingdom plunges into great turmoil while he's tormented in Ravenloft as a dark lord.

...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead.:smallconfused: At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

(making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)

A Tad Insane
2014-09-29, 05:57 PM
...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead.:smallconfused: At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

(making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)

If it's good enough fro Karrnath, then it's good enough for everyone

SaintRidley
2014-09-29, 09:17 PM
...so, the solution for the emperor to avoid dying without an heir and dooming the world/country to an unspecified terrible fate is....to deliberately die? Becoming undead has a rather crucial intermediary step of being dead.:smallconfused: At which point the bloodline thingamajiggie could very well kick in and doom everyone anyways, even if there was less than six seconds of 'no living emperor'.

(making the Mists a more likely outcome than you might expect, since being transported to Ravenloft would definitely qualify for fulfillment of a doom prophecy.)


All part of the point. Hubris has a tendency of blinding people to things like that. Getting the Mists involved was entirely the purpose of that idea.

Besides, then you have the fun of having the party decide what to do - get the emperor's dumb ass out of Ravenloft or stop whatever doom thingy is coming their way because the emperor's in Ravenloft.

Coidzor
2014-09-29, 09:23 PM
All part of the point. Hubris has a tendency of blinding people to things like that. Getting the Mists involved was entirely the purpose of that idea.

Besides, then you have the fun of having the party decide what to do - get the emperor's dumb ass out of Ravenloft or stop whatever doom thingy is coming their way because the emperor's in Ravenloft.

Sounds like a fun plan.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-09-30, 05:00 AM
And yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.
I agree - this whole thread has basically been about finding the loopholes in the original scenario. And as I posted further up thread, the central figure of this isn't someone who's gay and been told to sleep with a woman or else, it's someone who's gay, has been told for his entire life that his second most important duty is to produce heirs to the throne of the nation he rules, a duty superceeded only by his duty to protect the throne and the nation by any means necessary (and to an extent, producing heirs is a part of his duty to protect the throne/nation), and is surrounded by courtiers and/or civil servants who are determined that there will be heirs, by whatever means.

Lie back and think of Greyhawk is an option, as are The Royal Turkey Baster, Remote control, courtiers getting him blind drunk or stoned enough and in the morning pulling out some old law that grants them immunity the Emperor's retribution, illusions and partial polymorphing and a male relative.

Whether an option is actually used or not is another matter. Maybe they're sensitive to his wishes and go for his closest male relative as the simple option. Maybe they think they need to use more direct methods.

Wardog
2014-09-30, 04:40 PM
And yet, they constructed the scenario which has someone in the precise position where their entire reason for continuing to live is to have sex a few times, and then magnified it with a high-powered plot token. That's a little bit like saying "I'm not comfortable writing about drug use. My next book is set in a world where every food available is full of highly addictive narcotic chemicals..." or "I don't like talking about crime and poverty, and my next campaign is set in a third-world shantytown watched over by a drug cartel.."
If you did not want people to irritably ask someone to just go wiggle around with a friendly and equally constrained princess a couple times and get it over with, you would not have built a world which not only contained a class of people whose primary purpose for existing is to be bartered in loveless arranged marriages to produce children, but which also placed a barrier on the usual ways of cheating around that duty.

Plus, we haven't been told what would actually happen if the bloodline should fail. (Nor why it would necessarily fail with the death of the emperor. Depending on how the blood line is traced and what rules of succession are used, there could be any number of younger brothers, cousins, etc, sharing the bloodline who would be next in line. The only reason that wouldn't be the case is if the OP decided otherwise, presumably for specific plot reasons).